Powered by TypePad

« Slugging It Out On The NSA | Main | Be Careful What You Wish For »

December 22, 2005

Comments

clarice

Who are the "lawyers close to the case"? Raw Story is relying on ? And the DoS official who's supportive of Wilson?


(btw,Thom, Mac and Strata are suggesting Judge Robertson didn't resign but was suspended because like Rockefeller he seems to have been a NYT source on the NSA leak.)

Kate

If we think Fitz is really fond of his new nickname Fitzmas it would only be fitting and proper for him to indict Grinch Rove on December 23. However, the cranky elves of the Grand Jury may decide they need to give their families gifts instead of the far left.

As for the rest of the Rawstory article, it is too funny. Now Fitzgerald, who said his work was nearly completed, is back to examining the whole rest of the Bushies. No, he's not investigating the Woodward revelations, something that would make sense, but pre-war intelligence. Dave Schuster was right! We'll get to that 22 eventually.

Merry Christmas!

Kate

Fitzgerald seems to have bought into the Wilsons as victims narrative. We don't know how moved he was by the picture in Time Magazine that reveals their pain, their hurt.

This may be what motivated Fitz to reopen the whole case into pre-war intelligence. Darn it! Someone has to make sure the suffering Wilsons get justice.

kim

Raw Story senses the same thing I do, that Fitz may be just warming up. They sense it because they still hold out hope that he is finding a White House Conspiracy. I hold out hope that he is finally figuring out the criminality of Joe Wilson and others whether they be Democrats, thug CIA, or MSM. We both hold the forlorn hope that understanding the forgeries provenance is key to the mess.

Latest best guess: The papers are French disinformation intended to embarrass the Bush Administration into stopping the war, used by thug CIA and possibly DNC to sandbag the president after the war. Double duplicity. Unless it was Cannistraro and the French are innocent after all.

It does intrigue me that Raw Story is now after Yellow Cake forgery provenance. They assume it is WH disinformation. I think that is highly unlikely. Wrong modus.
=============================================

hrtshpdbox

Why is that hope forlorn? Someday, surely, the origin of the forgeries will become known. If, as you suspect, it's the anti-war element responsible, then it won't matter much to historians what lengths Fitzgerald goes to to contrive obstruction charges against the White House - the big story will be the discredited intelligence agencies.

kim

Thank you. I was hoping someone would notice my mild irony.
=====================================

maryrose

Along with Kim I still hold out hope that Fitz is as smart as people say he is and will see the light about this entire scam that has been perpetrated.

Chris

Just want to say thanks Tom. I put some money on Rove not being indicted on Tradesports when he was trading at 60. Needless to say, I stand to make a nice bit of money. I also made some money off the election when Bush took a dive after the exit polls showed Kerry way ahead.

Tom Maguire

I also made some money off the election when Bush took a dive after the exit polls showed Kerry way ahead.

Good courage - even though everyone was saying that the early exit polls don't mean much, it was tough to reconcile that with the appearance of every Fox broadcaster standing on or near a window ledge.

However - I felt like the Red Sox 2004 experience v. the Yanks was compressed into about six hours. A great night - my favorite moment was when some Dem flack came on about 9:30 PM to talk about the latest exit polls, looking as though his dog had just died. His spin and his face just did not match.

Lug

A Visit From Old St. Hillary

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9181

"MERRY HOLIDAY" from the ACLU

http://dicklist.blogspot.com/2005/12/43-merry-holiday-from-aclu.html

topsecretk9

Didn't Laura Rozen throw a brick through the Fitzgerald/Forgery connection? Well, his press conference did...more Raw Meat I guess.

noah

When I was in Europe several decades ago I picked up a paperback novel about a castle siege (apparently the equivalent of our "Western" over there). The tip of the spear in that battle was referred to as the "Hope" and forlorn it was.

owl

"His spin and his face just did not match."

Watch it, TM. JimE does not allow that kind of analyst. Have seen Bob Graham twice more do his dodge and it is not a pretty sight...think deadpan.

K

Early on, I had hoped Fitz would find the real story. I am now convinced that he has zero interest in investigating anyone other than White House officials. No, to be more specific, he is only interested in Libby and Rove.

He bought off on the whistleblower story and also was somewhat deceptive in his briefs to the court where he implied there were national security risks when there were none.

He is in the tank for the left.

Jeff

Mac and Strata are suggesting Judge Robertson didn't resign but was suspended because like Rockefeller he seems to have been a NYT source on the NSA leak.

Well, then we can be pretty sure it didn't happen that way. Mac and Strata are only a little less reliable than Rawstory.

Early on, I had hoped Fitz would find the real story.

K - You seem mighty confident you know what the real story is, even given the fact that Fitzgerald has gathered a lot of evidence we haven't been able to see. If you have evidence of the real story he is missing, I think you should by all means go forward to the investigation and ask to be put under oath. Or have you not done that because you just know he's in the tank for the left, so it will make no difference?

boris

I think you should by all means go forward to the investigation and ask to be put under oath

I can certainly make a recomendation for where you should go. However, I'll refrain in the spirit of the season.

maryrose

Cheer up K. I'm still confident that the truth will win out in the end.I hope the current leaks on intellegence will also be given due diligence.

Jeff

Ooh, good one boris. Just add some expletives and you've got your beloved Powerline's style of biting criticism down pat. So clever! So devastating!

boris

so true

Kate

Jeff - you are right! There was that tough questioning of Val and Joe.

There was that tough questioning of Andrea Mitchell.

There was that tough questioning of Pincus and Kristof.

Ho, the only one he was tough on was the Bush officials and one conservative reporter.

Fitz loved the attention.

clarice

Thom, on election night, even with the Fox team gloomy as could be, I knew Bush had won, because I'd been reading Jay Cost's horse race blog.After the election he closed down the blog to do graduate work in American politics at the University of Chicago. Monday he returns on Redstate and I recommend you read him. He's a real up and comer..

Gary Maxwell

Jay Cost was a must read last year. The guy was one of the most knowledgeable on polls and how to read them that I have ever seen. If he is coming back, readers of his will be better informed for it.

Kate

Clarice-I loved the Horserace blog. I think Cost and Barone know more about politics, polls, races and strategy than the rest of the political reporters put together.

I knew Bush won early on because of a post on Red State blog. I always wondered who their source was. While Fox and CNN were speculating on Kerry's cabinet Red State quoted an official as saying Ohio and Florida were safe. Bush would win.

I suspect it may be Fitzgerald's current target.

Gary Maxwell

Jeff

WTF are you talking about. Show me a single post ever where expletives are used at Powerline. It never happens. You are thinking of of DKos or DU or virtually any lefty nitwit site. Honestly have you ever read Powerline? ( Dont go there now, they have a very detailed analyisis of the President's actions on NSA intercepts. It will make you quite depressed, as they conclude what Cass Sunstein concludes - its entirelyl legal).

Jeff

Kate - How on earth did you get access to the questioning of Joe Wilson and Pincus and -- since it appears she spoke to someone at the outset of this, though she's obscured who -- Mitchell? Would you please share the transcripts? For that matter, since we've only seen what I presume are tiny snippets of the questioning of one Bush official, and it didn't look particularly tough to me, would you also share the rest of Libby's testimony and that of the other Bush officials? And who's the conservative reporter you're talking about - Russert, Miller, Novak, Jeff Gannon (just kidding on that last one! He never testified, right?)?

Seriously, it's one thing to say you're not satisfied with Fitzgerald's investigation, from what relatively little is publicly known about it and its omissions. It's another thing to claim you know what the real story is, that Fitzgerald doesn't, and that it must be because he's in the tank for the left, which is completely ludicrous.

Jeff

Gary - Have you ever seen the way they, or maybe it's just Hindrocket, respond to critics? Hoo boy can it get ugly. I do like your use of an acronym for an expletive in your response to me, though. Very clever.

And let's not forget that before they went respectable, one of them went by a nickname expressing a preference for anal sex and another by a nickname playing on his name to boast he had a large penis.

boris

which is completely ludicrous

Actually an incomplete dataset is an underdetermined system which allows for multiple valid solutions. Kate's storyline seems less ludicrous than yours actually.

Jeff

Actually an incomplete dataset

Show me one datapoint from outside the Plame investigation (which you can't use without reasoning in a circle) that is evidence that Fitzgerald is in the tank for the left. I have never seen any evidence that he is even on the left, and I have seen a bunch to suggest that he is not. And I have never seen any evidence that he is in the tank for the left regardless of his political affiliation (or lack of one). Is there a pattern in his prosecutions? Not as far as I can tell. In his most prominent prosecutions? Again, not as far as I have seen. Any evidence? And what plausible explanation would there be for him suddenly, despite all preexisting evidence to the contrary and the absence of evidence for the tank theory, to go into the tank for the left on this and this case alone? I can't think of one.

Gary Maxwell

Jeff

So in other words you did what you charge Republicans with doing. You just "Made Stuff Up" ( subsittuting for the Atrios preferred word without changing the meaning). And all or your homophobia is certainly not very open minded (like a good progressive).

I do have another acronym for you but I will just keep it to myself for now. I was once a Democrat so I can swear like a sailor on a 30 day submarine cruise!

Truzenzuzex

Gary:

I do have another acronym for you but I will just keep it to myself for now. I was once a Democrat so I can swear like a sailor on a 30 day submarine cruise!
As a former submariner, I resemble that remark.

Actually, it doesn't take 30 days to properly develop profanity on a sub - 18 hour days (i.e.) 3 watch rotation of 6 hours each for most rates, so your off-color vocabulary is fully developed in about 20 days. ;-)

I had the joy of being 4 section on a trip from Norfolk to Hawaii - the boat was transfering from ComSubLant to ComSubPac for its final duty station. 6 hours on, 18 hours off. I think I set the record for sleep on a 688-Class during that time...

Jeff

Gary - I honestly can't follow your reasoning at all. How did I make anything up? Since you've accused me of that, though, I took time I didn't want to to dig up one piece of evidence (and I'll admit! I found it via atrios himself!). Here you go. Warning: not for the delicate. I also can't fathom what suggested homosexuality, much less homophobia, to you in my post? I was observing the verbal vulgarity in Hindrocket and Big Trunk's original noms de blog -- not that I mind, since I'm a good progressive just like you said. Man, the holiday season really does seem to be getting to conservatives -- both you and boris teetered on the edge of unleashing on me. Merry Christmas!

Kate

Jeff-I'm not happy with Fitzgerald's investigation to day. I will acknowledge that there is material we don't know.

Here are my complaints:

1) Valerie Wilson and Joe Wilson did not appear before the Grand Jury;
2) Fitzgerald made numerous concessions to the reporters in the case and by the accounts of the reporters involved, he was exceedingly deferential;
3) He allowed Judith Miller to protect several of her sources and only report on her conversations with Libby, thus possibly missing the original leaker;
4) In his unprofessional newsconference, he incorrectly inferred that Libby had risked national security, something his indictment did not support;
5) He mistakenly indicated that Libby was at the beginning of the info chain, this has been proven to be incorrect;
6.) He missed Woodward's source.
7.) He implied that the redacted material indicated serious national security threats, this was not true.

Other than that, he did a great job.

boris

Show me one datapoint

Solutions for underdetermined systems with incomplete datasets need only satisy the datapoints that are known.

Validity does not depend therefore on the location of the unknown points.

Several weeks before the indictment I wrote the following on this website:

There are two parallax illusions relevant to this caper:

(1) Valerie and Joe spoke truth to power by exposing the fake intel behind a rogue administration’s march to unjust war. Then dastardly Rove and Co. conspired to take revenge on intrepid truthsayers by blowing Valerie’s cover, ruining her career and impugning false motive to their heroic endeavor. (nutter nonsense)

(2) Valerie and Joe conspired to lure the administration into revealing her employment at the CIA using as bait Joe’s carefully worded implication in the NY Times that he made the Niger trip at Cheney’s behest. Valerie’s covert status was no longer a career asset and was about to expire anyway so using it as legal force to spring the trap was maximum gain at no loss. Joe could barely conceal his glee when the scam worked and practically yelled “Aha ! Gotcha !!!” when he demanded Rove be frog marched out of the White House. (the real deal)

Which one Fitz is operating under depends on his immunity to BDS.

Since his press conference clearly placed him with (1), I therefore invoke the conclusion as suggesting the presense of BDS.

topsecretk9

I do like your use of an acronym for an expletive in your response to me, though. Very clever.

HEH.

Shame on you Gary .If the omnipotent one says Powerline lace their posts with expletives, then well HUSH, that should be enough!

boris

TS9, apparently his example of powerline colorful language is supposedly from a private email publicly posted by a moonbat critic. So it would seem there's a little dishonesty on display.

Jeff

1) Valerie Wilson and Joe Wilson did not appear before the Grand Jury;

So what? Joe Wilson was questioned, just not before the grand jury, like lots of people involved. We don't know about his wife but again so what?

2) Fitzgerald made numerous concessions to the reporters in the case and by the accounts of the reporters involved, he was exceedingly deferential;

It's true Fitzgerald was working under certain constraints and had to balance or trade off different values, including free press issues. By all accounts, he pushed further in imposing on free press values than anyone has in modern America. He was only deferential in the sense of being targeted with his questioning. Not so targeted, though - see next.

3) He allowed Judith Miller to protect several of her sources and only report on her conversations with Libby, thus possibly missing the original leaker;

He did no such thing. We know from several reporters that he asked about other sources related to the Plame matter, and it appears he did the same with Miller. Perhaps like you, I believe that Miller was not as forthcoming as she could and should have been about where else she heard about Plame. But what are you gonna do about that?

4) In his unprofessional newsconference, he incorrectly inferred that Libby had risked national security, something his indictment did not support;

My understanding of how federal prosecutors work suggests this was entirely professional. They go for the slam dunk, and they seek to explain the seriousness of what they're prosecuting by reference to what they claim are facts. I presume we will be hearing more of this at trial.

5) He mistakenly indicated that Libby was at the beginning of the info chain, this has been proven to be incorrect;

If by mistake, you mean that the second time he alluded to Libby's leak to Miller he forgot to include the qualification "known," I agree. But Libby was the first known leaker at that point, and the allegation remains that Libby was at the beginning of a chain of info that he claimed he was at the end of.
6.) He missed Woodward's source.

True, and he was supposed to get this how? As Fitzgerald said with regard to Libby, it's really hard to get to the bottom of things when people lie to you, and I strongly suspect that Woodward's source lied to Fitzgerald (or the investigation in any case). This is a good part of the basis for my strong belief that Woodward's source will be indicted for similar crimes to those Libby has been indicted for (or plea or cooperate).

7.) He implied that the redacted material indicated serious national security threats, this was not true.

Is the basis for this Tatel's opinion, or one of Fitzgerald's filings? And we're still not clear on this, certainly not because Tatel's redacted pages don't contain anything classified as of November or whatever.

Kate

Boris- I remember your post. The fact that Fitzgerald is still after Rove is an indication that he wants to be a big hero with the left.

Now that Bush has finally got mad I hope he stops calling the useless, biased Fitzgerald dignified.

He will try to get Rove to plead to a false statement charge since that will do the job of getting Rove out of the White House. Does Rove fight, don't know.

Jeff

topsecret, boris - Show me where I said Powerline put profanity in their posts. Didn't happen. The accusations of all sorts of evildoing against me are flying fast and furious today. Like I said, I guess it's the holiday spirit. Merry Christmas!

boris

Sorry jeff,

Tried to follow your post but it was utterly incoherent. You asked for and received "datapoints". What's with the hissyfits over each and every one.

boris

Gary: Show me a single post ever where expletives are used at Powerline

Jeff: Gary ... I took time ... to to dig up one piece of evidence

Jeff: topsecret, boris, Show me where I said Powerline put profanity in their posts.

Done

Jeff

boris - Gary's demand for expletives in a Powerline post was unresponsive to my original claim, and Gary accused me of making something up with my original claim. I gave evidence for my original claim that Hindrocket can get really profane with his critics. I also observed that I couldn't follow Gary's reasoning. So don't blame me for his reasoning problems.

boris

Need I remind you ...

Ooh, good one boris. Just add some expletives and you've got your beloved Powerline's style of biting criticism
There's a pretty strong implication that the expletives are to be found at Powerline, or the very least in their criticism, but your example covered neither implication. It was instead a private email response to a critic who posted it publicly which fails to support your initial claim or satisfy Gary's challange.

kim

SNAFU
=====

maryrose

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"
We just have to wait for this to all play out. I do believe Fitz would like to nail Rove just to get street cred with the left.
I just wonder who all these snitches are.

kim

Double, Double, Toil and Trouble.
=================================

Syl

You know darned well Rove ain't gonna be indicted. The Left should know that better than anyone. I mean they're the ones who assume Rove is Bush's stringpuller. Well, just look at the direction the polls are moving, just look at all Bush's speeches, his pushback, the Democrats hysteria and fumbling around for a position.

Either Rove is free of worry and doing all this for Bush.

Or Rove isn't really the stringpuller after all and if he's indicted it wouldn't remove Bush's effectiveness.

topsecretk9

Is it just me or does one particular poster here pop up like Moaning Myrtle in Harry Potter?

Actually I was pleasantly surprised by the Powerline email...and I should note the response is no where near as threatening as the ones Larry C. Johnson loves to send...just ask Sue.

topsecretk9

Moaning Myrtle = not you Jeff

topsecretk9

and thanks Boris!

(absent, he's got my back!)

kim

Maybe Murmuring Marie?
=========================

topsecretk9

Kim
YES!

boris

anytime K9

Jeff

boris - For what it's worth the example I gave you was what I had in mind from the getgo -- and I believe the target of Hindrocket's outburst identified him or herself as the blogger and had some fair warning that s/he might post any email received. In any case, regardless, the attack is might profane from Hindrocket. And I'm not even necessarily objecting to the profanity per se. And topsecret, thanks for the clarification.

richard mcenroe

Special Leak for RawStory:

Fitzgerald is going to raid Rove's house on Christmas eve and frogmarch him out past the news cameras in irons, in front of his entire assembled family.

Why?

Just because.

Tollhouse

Is there still time? ;)

Merry Fitzmas

marianna

"I hold out hope that he is finally figuring out the criminality of Joe Wilson"

It isn't clear that Fitz would have the authority to investigate Joe Wilson. I believe he would have to ask a judge for permission to expand the scope of his inquiry. I hold out hope that someone will investigate the real law-breaker here -- Joe Wilson -- but I don't think it will be Fitz.

richard mcenroe

A Christmas Quote:

"There's GOT to be a pony in there somewere!" — Jeff

Merry Christmas, Cheerful Channukah and a kickin' Kwanzaa as appropriate, everyone!

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame