The Osama Tape (With Matthews And Moore)

Osama bin Laden has apparently released a new tape, estimated to have been made in December:

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, Jan. 19 - Breaking more than a year's silence, Osama bin Laden warned Americans in an audiotape released on Thursday that Al Qaeda was planning more attacks on the United States, but he offered a "long truce" on undefined terms.

A truce?  Because he is winning and wants to let us catch our breath?  [Gregory Djerejian reflects at length].

In related news the manufactured outrage du jour is pretty thin soup - Crooks and Liars has a clip of Chris Matthews comparing Osama to Michael Moore (NOT the other way around), and Peter Daou is agitated.

First, let's extend the transcript a bit to minimize any confusion - Chris Matthews begins by reading this from Bin Laden's statement:

There is no defect in this solution [a proposed truce] other than preventing the flow of hundreds of billions to the influential people and war merchants in America, who supported Bush's election campaign with billions of dollars.

Matthews then says, roughly, "I mean he sounds like an over the top Michael Moore here, if not a Michael Moore. Do you think that sells in America, that this war is being fought for the Daddy Warbucks?"

And let's go to Mr. Daou for a reaction:

DEMAND AN APOLOGY: "Bin Laden sounds like Clint Eastwood" -- "Bin Laden sounds like Ron Silver" -- "Bin Laden sounds like Rush Limbaugh" -- "Bin Laden sounds like Bill O'Reilly"-- "Bin Laden sounds like Mel Gibson" -- "Bin Laden sounds like Bruce Willis" -- "Bin Laden sounds like Michelle Malkin"... Imagine the outrage on the right and in the press (but I repeat myself) if a major media figure spat out those words.

Well, if Mr. Daou can find examples of any of those figures suggesting that the war on terror is being driven by the "war merchants", then the comparison would be apt.  Good luck.

On the other hand, Matthews' extrapolation of Moore's world view does not grab me as out of bounds - for example, a sympathetic reviewer assures us that Fahrenheit 9/11 promoted the Afghanistan oil pipeline theory and the Saudi-Bush connections, and a bit of poking around Michael Moore's website suggests he is more concerned than, say, Clint Eastwood with the profiteering possibilities of the war.

Well - if Osama has chosen to adopt Michael Moore's rhetoric, it would not be the first time.  Bin Laden also made a reference to "The Pet Goat" after Moore popularized that Florida classroom incident in his film.

And why the fuss, anyway?  Moore bashes Bush, Osama bashes Bush - surely the rhetoric might overlap at times, and if Osama is aping Moore, why should that be an outrage to Moore?

Let's put it another way - here is an extended passage form the Bin Laden statement.  I suspect that I could find similar sentiments throughout the editorial pages of this country, not to mention the blogosphere.

Here we go - Osama as aspiring Kos diarist:

In fact, reports indicate that the defeat and devastating failure of the ill-omened plan of the four - Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz - and the announcement of this defeat and working it out, is only a matter of time, which is to some extent linked to the awareness of the American people of the magnitude of this tragedy.

The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq.

If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons.

To go back to where I started, I say that the results of the poll satisfy sane people and that Bush's objection to them is false.

Reality testifies that the war against America and its allies has not remained confined to Iraq, as he claims.

In fact, Iraq has become a point of attraction and recruitment of qualified resources.

Is Osama really out of the anti-Bush mainstream with this?  And why would he be - to the extent his audience is the West (rather than, for example, followers in the Muslim world), he is surely savvy enough to strike notes that will resonate with Western anti-war people.

MORE:  Another look at the power of the war merchants in "Why We Fight".  It's hard to argue that Osama is utterly alone on this point.

UPDATE:  Folks who are mad at Chris Matthews ought to be furious with Tucker Carlson.  From Jan 19 "The Situation" (via Lexis News):

CARLSON: The war in Iraq is creating more terrorists than it`s killing. It`s just a war about oil and Halliburton. Sounds awfully familiar. When did Osama bin Laden start getting talking points from the DNC?

Here to discuss the new bin Laden tape, among other things, from Air America Radio, it`s Rachel Maddow, shaking her head preemptively. We haven`t even started talking yet, and already you`re going like that.

RACHEL MADDOW, AIR AMERICA RADIO HOST: I was sitting -- I read the speech, right. I paid attention to this all day. I was sitting upstairs right outside your office, and I was kind of writing out arguments and things that I wanted to talk about.And then on the television, in the corner of my eye, there`s you sitting there, smiling through Joe Scarborough...

CARLSON: Yes.

MADDOW: ... showing Osama, Howard Dean, Osama, John Kerry, Osama, Ted Kennedy. I`m honestly mad at you.

CARLSON: Didn`t it blow your -- didn`t it below your mind?

MADDOW: That`s your take.

CARLSON: Isn`t it uncanny? It`s incredible. Every single talking point. And as I said to Joe, I am in no way comparing the moral -- I am not -- I am not comparing...

MADDOW: I am not comparing this. He uses talking points from the DNC.

CARLSON: It`s incredible.

MADDOW: There`s no comparison.

CARLSON: It`s incredible. You could go through the whole list. I literally expected him to say Hillary in 2008 in the end. I mean, every single line I`ve heard it before. Where is he getting this? How does he get the "New York Times" in his cave is my question.

MADDOW: Here`s my question.

CARLSON: Yes.

MADDOW: Osama bin Laden, the whole mastermind behind 9/11...

CARLSON: Yes.

MADDOW: ... the guy who attacked us and killed thousands of Americans, does another videotape, threatens America.

CARLSON: Yes.

MADDOW: On MSNBC, with Chris Matthews and Joe Scarborough and Tucker Carlson, that`s an occasion to pile on Ted Kennedy. What are you talking about?

CARLSON: It`s interesting. He doesn`t actually...

MADDOW: He threatens the American people.CARLSON: Well, he`s Osama bin Laden.MADDOW: Yes.

CARLSON: He`s behind 9/11. He`s a bad guy. We`re not ignoring that.

MADDOW: Let`s go get Howard Dean.

CARLSON: The substance of this was not really about his threats. Actually, it was much more complicated than that. I`ve read, I think, every public communique he`s come out with, and they`re always about the crusaders and the Jews and about how Israel is evil and we`re evil and we`re going to kill you all.This was not about that, actually. He was making a political case. You read the whole thing.

MADDOW: Yes.

CARLSON: It was about how the war in Iraq is doomed because the American people don`t support it. And the war in Iraq was waged in the first place because the warmongers and Halliburton and the crazed neo-cons were behind it. And they, you know, changed Bush`s mind and got him to support.

MADDOW: That`s like...

CARLSON: Do you recognize that argument?MADDOW: No.

CARLSON: I do.

So do I.

STILL MORE:  Get mad at Joe Scarborough and Kellyanne Conway, who is, Joe tells us, "a Republican Party strategist and the president of the Polling Company":

SCARBOROUGH: If you look at a lot of the things that Osama bin Laden said, it sounds like an awful lot like what we hear from a lot of the president`s political enemies domestically. 

CONWAY: Well, indeed.  Joe, if you held a piece of tissue paper between some of the comments that bin Laden said today and some of the comments that the president`s detractors say, it would be very difficult to stick more than a piece of tissue paper between them. There`s not much of a difference.

...SCARBOROUGH: Of some of those comments, and saying that the president lied to get us in the war, lied to get us in there because of oil. Again, it sounds too much not only like what a lot of Democratic senators have been saying, but also what one or two movie-makers have been saying over the past several years.

Hey, just bury MSNBC with emails!  And someone might want to check the other networks as well - either the MSNBC chaps are staggeringly original, or they were, collectively, stating the obvious.

UPDATE 2:  Ted Barlow deserves an answer, but right now my intentions are better than my time menagement.

Comments

[Frank Martin]

In the transcript Osama instructs the listener to read a book called " Rogue State" written by Howard Blum, a man far to the left of Chomsky.

If you read the actual transcript its clear that Osama hasnt spent his time in Pakistan reading Ayn Rand.

It pains me to say this, but Chris is "Spot On".

[Syl]

Bush has no plan! LOLOL

No, it's not really funny. But I suspect there ARE members of the DNC being monitored because there's gotta be an Osama mole in there somewhere.

JUST KIDDING

I imagine it's normal procedure for an enemy to use the arguments of the rivals of their opposition.

But the specific arguments used go well beyond what's found in the nytimes and it would be interesting to try and figure out which sources Osama depends on.

He surely doesn't get the newspaper. All his info comes from the internet. And I wonder which sites he has found most useful. His researchers obviously understand English very well.

He picks up so many of the main screaming memes of the left such as Halliburton, My Pet Goat, the 'Mission Accomplished', Bush Lied, No Plan!

Actually that's where Moore got his material from too. Same source. Same rhetoric.

BTW, MEMRI says misinterpretation by al Jazeera has given the impression that Osama offered a truce. He did not. He offered to accept a truce if we offered one he could live with.

[Kate]

In one of Hitler's speeches in 1939 responding to FDR's proposal for peace in Europe, Hitler quoted generously from FDR's rivals and domestic opponents.

The entire strategy of the South in the Civil War was to give the opponents of the war in the north openings to pressure Lincoln to sue for peace.

None of this is new, but Osama has diminished himself and has transitioned from Islamic mystic to just another leftist wacko.

[kim]

Ooh, please don't keep writing 'The Pet Goat'. I've delighted in bagging Bush critics who insist on 'My'. The ship of fools is a Moorian liner; My Pet Boat.
========================================

[Dwilkers]

I notice the NYTimes gave short shrift to this:

"Operations are under preparation, and you will see them on your own ground once they are finished, God willing."

In other news, Democratic party leaders continued to argue that the President has no authority to monitor communications between known foreign terrorist organizations and the US and promised to prevent the reauthorization of the Patriot Act. Party leaders see this as a sound election strategy for 2006 noting that the vast majority of Americans would prefer that the US avoid listening to telephone calls placed from caves in Afghanistan or offices in Damascus or Teheran to apartments, motels or boarding houses in the US.

[kim]

You know, it is such a strange partnership, the American Left and al Qaeda. One wonders where the European Left is wandering, or are they also in the throes of BDS?
==============================================

[Dwilkers]

"You know, it is such a strange partnership, the American Left and al Qaeda."

I've been trying to figure it out for years now.

The only way I can think of it without falling into utter despair is that I now divide the left side of the political spectrum into "normal liberals" and "leftists".

[kim]

They've danced themselves into a corner. It is such a paradox and one that is apparently invisible to the adherents. It's willful blindness, too, because they are sensitive to the criticism. Purple Fingers are like Green Kryptonite to them.
=====================================

[BN]

You know, it is such a strange partnership, the American Left and al Qaeda.

Which one do you hate more?

[Clyde]

Actually, I thought ol' Binny sounded more like Howlin' Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi and Jack "Cut and Run" Murtha. I think that Binny's probably on the DNC talking points mailing list.

[richard mcenroe]

Actually, Osama sounds more like Eddie Deezen.

[Sue]

On Tucker Carlson last night, Rachel Madcow (I really don't know her last name, it sounds like madcow and she acts like a madcow) was furious at Tucker for saying bin Laden sounded as if he was using the DNC talking points in his speech. In fact, in the show right before Tucker's, Scarborough Country, they played clips of various democrats and then OBL. You couldn't tell the difference. Now, I don't know about democrats, but I would be somewhat embarrassed hearing my words repeated in Arabic by a Saudi dissident. ::grin::

To answer this: "Which one do you hate more?" Michael Moore or bin Laden?...tough call.

[Attila (Pillage Idiot)]

Why would I want to defend Clint Eastwood? Dirty Harry maybe, but not Clint Eastwood.

[cathyf]

Well I'm somewhat startled that no one seems to be wondering about the simplest and most obvious conclusion that you could draw from the spot on characterization of this dude claiming to be "Osama" sounds like an over-the-top Michael Moore. Which is that Osama is dead, and some aQ faction is dummying up video and audio tapes, and has been since at least the "over-the-top Michael Moore" tape in Nov 2004. Osama was always focused exclusively upon a particular interpretation of a 1500-year-old religion with plenty of intellectual depth. That the contents of "Osama's" words have declined into not just warmed-over leftist rhetoric, but the stupidest subset of leftist rhetoric, suggests that al Qaeda has lost some significant part of it's intellectual heft. Either because Osama is dead, or has dementia, or is otherwise incapacitated. And whomever is in charge of aQ these days is no Osama.

Which is all good...

cathy :-)

[maryrose]

For the leftists a mirror has been held up and they are forced to see themselves carrying water for OBL. No wonder they have to recoil and then lash out because they have been hiding the truth from themselves. They are on the wrong side of this issue but too arrogant and proud {Rachel Madcow}{mr. Daou} to admit it or acknowledge their mistake.

[topsecretk9]

(I really don't know her last name, it sounds like madcow and she acts like a madcow)

You know what they say, if sounds like a madcow and it acts like a madcow

"Osama's" words have declined into not just warmed-over leftist rhetoric, but the stupidest subset of leftist rhetoric, suggests that al Qaeda has lost some significant part of it's intellectual heft.

Now that makes sense. I too was struck by the "leftist" pop culture tinge that just didn't sound right.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

I thought it was more, John Murtha.

[Bill in AZ]

Wonder what the VIP's are up to?? Maybe there is a pile of discard practice OBL tapes in some basement room at Langley - next to the pile of practice fake but accurate TANG memos, and the pile of practice fake Niger documents.

As to who to hate more - hate is the wrong word - more like disgust. The greatest contempt goes to MSM for creating and carefully cultivating over the last 40 years the deranged and unhinged leftist thought processes that Osama is merely echoing back to us because it serves his ultimate purpose. I frankly have greater respect for OBL than I do for Michael Moore. OBL is following his "religion" whatever that may be. Michael Moore should know better. Hmmmm... after writing that, maybe Michael Moore is following his religion too - the religion of MSM.

[Beth]

Sue,

I saw Tucker's show last night too. Greatest line of the day when Tucker said to Rachel "Osama's stealing your best lines"

[Sue]

Beth,

::grin::

[Daddy]

Is this the beginning of the 'Swift-Boating' of Osama?

[Sue]

Daddy,

Of course not. We are continuing the swift boating of democrats. Sheesh...

[maryrose]

tHE OLD SAYING" wHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND SEEMS APPROPRIATE HERE. aND NOW IT'S COMING OUT OF oSAMA'S MOUTH.

[Forbes]

richard: Who's Eddie Deezen?

[dfx]

And in 1997 bin Laden instructed the mothers of American soldiers to oppose President Clinton. bin Laden said that the name of President Clinton provokes disgust and revulsion.

So, if you were disgusted or revulsed by Bill Clinton this means that you are comparable to Bin Laden, too. If you were the soldier of an American mother that opposed Bill Clinton, you were supporting terrorists.

It's kinda funny how this circular logic works, eh? Basically, over the last nine years the majority of critics on the Left and the Right agreed with bin Laden. Which means, of course, that they supported terrorism. It might be nice if both sides could come together and agree that bin Laden is actually worse than Michael Moore, Ann Coulter, Bill Clinton, and George Bush. As arrogant and cocky as each of them are, I doubt either would seriously ever consider killing thousands of innocent Americans.

[clarice]

Well, it is obvious that OBL is no longer playing to the Muslim crowd but to the Western leftists..

[Rider]

Two words for you Dem-baiters: Tora Bora

Osama is Bush's most valuable asset. OBL is probably the safest man on the planet today. Bush will see to it that not a hair on his head is harmed. Where would Bush be without Osama? It's inconceivable.

[boris]

Well well, rider rider pants on fire is back from corkscrew. Wondered if someone brought back some take out brocolli and beef.

[Rider]

Any similarities between what OBL says and DNC talking points is entirely due to the fact that you are so used to hearing people speak from within the bubble, that when those who are outside the bubble speak about reality you think they are in cohoots. I don't rely on either one of them for news, understand, but there are probably more accurate and truthful statements in OBL's tapes than in anything that comes out of the mouth of Dick Cheney. Even sitting in a cave in Pakistan Osama is more in touch with reality than the Vice President.

[boris]

trolls smell funny

[richard mcenroe]

Forbes -- B-movie actor and cartoon character voice. In the movie 1941, that's him stuck up on the Ferris wheel...

[topsecretk9]

tangentially related...but I have now read some off the comments the Post took down and now I don't blame them. Purely from a business perspective they cheapened the brand and really they did the side with the wicked argument-less comments a favor. Which just gave me an idea. We should join the crusade in forcing the Post to reinstate their blogs and comments.

It brings the kos kids out of the shadows smack on the Post pages for all those "outside of the bubble" to get a true flavor of the "mainstream-ness"

[Randy Paul]

George Bush on bin Laden March 13, 2003:

"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became -- we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore.

That's your guy in his own words barely half a year after 9/11.

You guys are unbelievable.

[Randy Paul]

Sorry for the unclosed tag

[Achillea]

Let me see if I've got this straight ...

Lefty: Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz = Hitler
Moonbat chorus: Go dude! Speak truth to power!

Lefty: Osama's starting to sound like Michael Moore.
Moonbat chorus: SHRIEK! Youtakethatback!

[Randy Paul]

Achillea,

No, you don't have it straight.

[boris]

You just proved the point

[Rider]

If Bush had captured / killed OBL in the four and a half years since the WTC attacks, we would not be having this discussion. Either Bush is an incompetent and can't catch him, or Bush is an Al Qaeda sympathizer himself and needs OBL around to keep up the GWOT kabuki. Your choice.

[Achillea]

Randy Paul,

Exactly how does President Bush pointing out the fact that liberating Afghanistan from the Taliban/Al Qaeda did a lot of damage to OBL disprove the argument that OBL's declamations have become virtually indistinguishable from ANSWER emails?

[Randy Paul]

Boris,

Poppycock. I never equated Bush to Hitler and the last Michael Moore movie I saw was Roger and Me. I work a block away from Ground Zero and would have loved it if the president had an attention span that would have enabled him to get the job done re: Al Qaeda instead of pursuing his little adventure in the Gulf.

You should read some Shakespeare: "The fault, dear Brutus is not in the stars, but in ourselves" for not getting the job done.

Keep shouting in this echo chamber if you gives the warm tinglies. The president's quote above illustrates his lack of attention to the matter. If he'd followed through as he should have, bin Laden would either be fertilizer for poppies in Afghanistan or captured.

That's your guy's fault for dropping the ball.

[Robin Roberts]

Randy, the fact that you cannot understand the President's simple point that the most important thing his administration is doing is attacking the terrorist organization as a whole and removing its safe havens and infrastructure rather than focus on a single man tell us a lot.

About you, not the President.

[Randy Paul]

Achillea, read my response to Boris. If it gives you the warm tinglies to think that all of us on the left end of the political spectrum support ANSWER, keep deluding yourselves.

No one I know does.

[Ken C.]

Lefty: Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz = Hitler
Moonbat chorus: Go dude! Speak truth to power!

Cite? Where's the chorus?

By the way: happy with 2222 soldiers dead for nothing? Criminal spying on Americans? Violation of treaties? Torture, corruption, incompetence?

Is there anything Bush could do that you won't defend?

[Achillea]

Rider,

So lefties have never said Bush, et al is like Hitler? Or they're not pitching a hissyfit now at one of their own commenting on the similarities in OBL's and Moore's talking points?

You've set yourself a heavy row to hoe making either of those contentions. Best get to it.

[Randy Paul]

Robin,

It's not that I understand, it's that the job has not been done.

As I said to Boris, if he'd done the job, bin Laden would have been a non-issue, as would Al Qaeda. He shifted his focus before the job was done. Al Qaeda as an organization has grown, terrorism incidents have increased in 2003 and 2004.

[Randy Paul]

Make that it;s not that I don't understand.

Achillea:

Do you agree with every comment that every right-wing extremist has every said? I would afford you the courtesy of the presumption that you don't. Perhaps you can find it in yourself to afford us on the left the same courtesy.

[max]

1. Osama - the United States is an evil
hegemon

Left/DNC/MSM - the United States is an
evil hegemon

2. Osama - the United States deserves to
lose and will lose in Iraq

Left/DNC/MSM - the United States
deserves to lose and will lose in Iraq

3. Osama - President Bush is an evil idiot

Left/DNC/MSM - President Bush is an evil
idiot.

Anyone else noticing the pattern?

[Randy Paul]

Please supply us with a link to the DNC and the MSM with them actually making those statements.

I'm sure that you can dredge up some kooky leftie who made those statements, but we don't move in lockstep as much as you'd like to believe we do.

[Rider]

What I said was that if Hitler, Göbbels, Göring, and Himmler were around today, we'd probably call them neoconservatives.

Now if you want to compare Osama to John Kerry, are you trying to say that Osama didn't earn those Purple Hearts? Or he's like Ted Kennedy? Are you saying that Osama has a drinking problem and killed Mary Jo? Or is he like Michael Moore? You mean a big fat, ugly guy that doesn't shave, wears baseball hats, and makes documentaries? Come on, out with it. Is Osama like Ted Kennedy, or is Ted Kennedy like Osama? Ted Kennedy lives in a cave? John Kerry has four wives? Michael Moore is seven feet tall and wears pajamas? Go ahead and say what's on your mind.

[Rider]

Anyone else noticing the pattern?

Somebody give this man a new sheet of tinfoil, please.

[John in Tokyo]

Why are Liberals getting so defensive here!? Seems like the worst reaction to have. They ought to scoff at Osama's pathetic attempts to ape their rhetoric. They ought to disavow Osama's transparent and feeble attempts at exploiting our own internal divisions - our criticisms of Bush are our own, thank you very much. And they ought to disavow any connections with far left fringe ideologues like William Blum and Michael Moore (I still can't believe they embraced that disgusting propagandist in 2004, even after he had famously supported Nader in 2000). Most prominent righty bloggers would laugh at a comparison to Pat Robertson or David Duke. But Bush Derangement Syndrome clouds all judgement. If they were smart they would applaud Bush for earning Osama's emnity, but then add that they would do an even better job of infuriating Osama, pushing progress in the Middle East. But many seem constitutionally incapable of adopting such a stance.

To be fair, there are deranged righties as well. Commenter Bill in AZ actually admits that his partisan hatred is so intense that he 'respects' Bin Laden more than Michael Moore. Get a grip dude! One guy is a (agitprop) filmmaker, and one guy has murdered thousands and would kill millions in order to have his way.

[topsecretk9]

If Bush had captured / killed OBL in the four and a half years since the WTC attacks, we would not be having this discussion.

Oh please. We would probably be discussing Osama's harsh living conditions in captivity.

However, had Clinton acted on Sudan's offer to hand deliver Osama in a brown paper package we REALLY might not be having this discussion, now would we?

[Rider]

BDS. It's real. Bush is the one who is deranged.

Sudan's offer. Yes, and if Sudan had ever actually had OBL to hand over and the whole thing wasn't a wingnut radio myth, we might have something to discuss.

[inmypajamas]

Read the tape transcript, fellas. "OBL" hits all the top DNC points, including a reference to Vietnam. It could almost be a Scrappleface parody, which makes me start to doubt whether it actually is OBL himself. Where are all the Allah and crusader and Koran references that he normally uses to bolster his Islamic credentials? It just seems too close to a Pelosi speech on the Senate floor to ring true.

I am darn sorry I missed Scarborough's juxtaposing Dem comments with Osama's. How great is that?

Rider, could you be more deliberately literalistic to avoid facing reality? Yeah, saying OBL is parroting talking points is exactly like saying Ted Kennedy lives in a cave. Please.

[Gary Maxwell]

Top Secret Doggie:

Boy you really know how to hurt em. Bringing facts to the table about their golden boy resembling their epithets of incompetence must be raising welts and causing hives.

[Randy Paul]

However, had Clinton acted on Sudan's offer to hand deliver Osama in a brown paper package we REALLY might not be having this discussion, now would we?

Perhaps. I'm certainly not going to defend Clinton or anyone who dropped the ball. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.

Perhaps if the president had paid a little more attention to the August 6, 2001 PDB we also wouldn't be having this discussion.

Oh please. We would probably be discussing Osama's harsh living conditions in captivity.

Pure ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. I've posted fairly respectfully and have attempted to appeal to your and your side's sense of decency. How foolish of me to think you had one.

John in Tokyo:

I would gladly denounce Michael Moore if I read any of his books or, as I indicated before, seen anything since Roger and Me. Marc Cooper, on my side of the political aisle takes on Michael Moore here.

I'm not familiar with William Blum. Noam Chomsky's a fine linguist - and he should leave it at that. I find his responses to questions to be, well, evasive and intellectually dishonest.

But John, I don't have to do an auto-da-fé every time some kook on my side says something asinine. I'm responsible for what I say and do. That is the only behavior over which I have any control.

[topsecretk9]

John in Tokyo

Most prominent righty bloggers would laugh at a comparison to Pat Robertson or David Duke.

Funny you should say that because most (conservative bloggers) did post hates condemn and ridicule their most recent dumbass comments (Duke in Syria, Robertson about Sharon), in fact I am hard pressed to think of a conservative that did rejoice at this idiocy (to be fair I am sure their were a few fringies that agree with these morons. I just didn't see or hear about them)

As far as the left rhetoric, it has just reached pandemic with no antidote. A hole.

JimPJ

CathyF aptly pointed out the missing heft here also

[Rider]

You are the ones who are being overly literalistic. You think the tape really was made by Michael Moore because Osama is dead. How crazy is that? LOL.

Randy - Clinton did not drop the ball. It's a lie. Sudan never offered to turn Osama over to the U.S. They offered to return him to Saudi Arabia. Clinton begged Saudi Arabia to take him back, but they didn't want him, and he wound up in Afghanistan.

[Rider]

BTW, I think Noam Chomsky is the worst thing that ever happened to linguistics.

[clarice]

I know this echo from OBL is bothering the left. They are screaming the same nonsense on every chat board and blog site.It's been one setback after another for months.

[topsecretk9]

Perhaps. I'm certainly not going to defend Clinton or anyone who dropped the ball. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.

Oh whatever, I don't think I was overly rude to you but if I was sorry. I am just slightly tired of this lame 'I'm certainly not going to defend Clinton" quickie blanket disclosure to justify criticisms of Bush of a predicament Clinton let fester.

With no recognition of this, not necessarily in a finger pointing way, I think the arguments of the left are baseless.

[topsecretk9]

Gary

Apparently Rider is unpersuaded, something about Rush Limbaugh or some such

[Randy Paul]

Rider,

Regardless of that my larger point is that if it had happened, I wouldn't be defending Clinton. Of course, you're right that it's a myth perpetuated by Sean Hannity among others. Topsecret needs to dig a little deeper.

Yet the Bush acolytes defend the president for spending more time clearing brush than paying attention to the 8/6/01 PDB and Condi Rice comments that no one could have anticipated someone flying jets into a building while ignoring what could have happened in France on December 24, 1994, well all I can say is pot-kettle-black.

[Randy Paul]

Clarice,

Click your heels together three times and say "there's no place like home."

Good night people.

[topsecretk9]

anyone who dropped the ball.

Not to be too rude...but thanks for making my point. What "BALL" counts? Certainly the first ball ranks, no?

At the beginning of this war many on the left were criticizing GHWB for dropping the ball ---skipped right over 8 more years of ball dropping-- but if GHWB dropped the ball, wasn't Bush picking up the ball again?

[inmypajamas]

I'm not saying OBL is dead. It's just that his last two tapes are a departure from his previous style and he now seems to be directing his message almost exclusively to the West, closely following the arguments of the left. Before, he seemed to be painting himself as the ultimate pious Muslim out to restore the caliphate and beat back the infidels in order to collect followers.

Maybe it's just his political acumen that died.

[topsecretk9]

I blew the tag, Cathyf is gonna get me. Big trouble in little China for me

[topsecretk9]

JimmyPj

Your right, you didn't say that, but I think some of your analysis was similar to hers...lacking the Muslim brotherhood polish.

[Gary Maxwell]

Ts Niner

a stuck pig squeals when is stuck. And after the relative calm of the last few days the squealing today says the pig just got stuck.

"If the shoe fit, you must admit..."

paraphrasing a famous attorney for Mr Simpson.

[Gary Maxwell]

off bad tag

[Rider]

OMG, you know for a minute there I actually started thinking the 9/11 attacks on the WTC and Pentagon took place during the Clinton years. You had me going there. I forgot that it was on Bush's watch, deep into his first year, long after the NSA started conducting electronic surveillance on Al Qaeda communications between Afghanistan and the U.S. It's Bush's screw-up all the way, kids. Or, are you going on the theory that since Gore won the popular vote, he should take the blame for it?

[topsecretk9]

we went from

- I'm certainly not going to defend Clinton or anyone who dropped the ball.

to

-Regardless of that my larger point is that if it had happened, I wouldn't be defending Clinton.

which is what I meant by
"'I'm certainly not going to defend Clinton" quickie blanket disclosure to justify criticisms"

[topsecretk9]

thanks Gary.

[Gary Maxwell]

Man when the left starts quoting Sean Hannity I know that pieces are coming off fasting than superglue can put them back on! This is so funny I am wiping tears.

And the fact that Sudanese officials claim that they offered OBL to the US, well just ignor it cuz a known perjurer said in a radio interview it wasn't true. Ask yourself why the Sudanese officials would lie about this. Sean Hannity you rogue you!

[Gary Maxwell]

fasting = faster sheesh

[Rider]

just ignor it cuz a known perjurer said in a radio interview it wasn't true.

Wrong again. It was the 9/11 Commission:

Former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States. Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim.

Sudan did offer to expel Bin Ladin to Saudi Arabia and asked the Saudis to pardon him. U.S. officials became aware of these secret discussions, certainly by March 1996. The evidence suggests that the Saudi government wanted Bin Ladin expelled from Sudan, but would not agree to pardon him. The Saudis did not want Bin Ladin back in their country at all.

[Gary Maxwell]

A fair bit different than proving its not true aint it. Statments made by sudanese officials says its true and a perjurer says its not true. Man what a stack of compelling arguments you got there bud.

[max]

I detect the new leftist theme/meme - change the subject from how Osama now sounds like the dnc/msm/left to "blame" - President Bush for not killing Osama and/or for not preventing the attacks on 9/11/01 and/or for being alive. Any stick will do, as long is can be used to treat Bush rather than Osama and radical Islam as the enemy.

Nice try, but it won't work as long as Murtha, Sheehan et al continue to be the public face of the chattering classes' msm/dnc/leftist troika. And it also won't work as long as the troika continues to act as though 9/11/01 was the day history skipped.

[clarice]

Odd how the authors of the Osama themes don't want to take credit.Is there no pride in authorship any more?

[Rider]

I'd say the burden of proof is on you or the former Sudanese officials, bud. You're making the allegation, back it up. Personally, I don't put too much faith in Sudanese officials.

Talk all you like about how Osama sounds like Kerry, Kennedy, and Moore and the DNC and Pelosi and Boxer and Murtha and Sheehan and Barbara Streisand and Martin Sheen and Madonna and whoever, if that's the way you want to go. It just makes you sound crazier than shithouse rats, but hey...

[Harry Arthur]

Rider, You had me going there. I forgot that it was on Bush's watch, deep into his first year, long after the NSA started conducting electronic surveillance on Al Qaeda communications between Afghanistan and the U.S. It's Bush's screw-up all the way, kids.

Two points: I haven't been young enough to be considered a "kid" for close to 4 decades and I'm sure I'm not the oldest conservative on this site. Oh, I get it, a derisive ad hominem. OK. I feel sufficiently "derided". I hope you feel better now.

Second, get over the "it happened on Bush's watch" nonsense. That horse is quite dead. That ground has been plowed. That dog don't hunt. There must be more ...

BTW, another dead horse ... since Gore won the popular vote .... Bush has now won two elections. If you're still whining about the 2000 election, you should follow the sage advice of LTG Hanore: "Don't get stuck on stupid."

You know perfectly well that NEITHER the Clinton administration NOR the Bush administration had any real appreciation of the damage AQ could do or was planning. Even OBL himself, was surprised by the results of the attack on the WTC. The fact is that the "wall" separating intelligence gathering from law enforcement has been needlessly high for several decades and it finally bit us on the tail.

The blame game is pointless and useless. We should be spending our time, treasure and talents on stopping the next attack not useless arguments over who was asleep on guard duty when the bad guys attacked last time. At this point, quite frankly I don't care and I don't think my good friend Joe Sixpack does either.

The only real question in my mind is: "What do we do now to keep our people as safe as humanly possible?" It seems to me that Bush's authorization for the NSA to track down the communications end of this thing is precisely the type of reasonable action anticipated by the 9/11 commission, assuming we can be assured that the potential for mischief by the executive branch is minimized.

Someone a lot smarter than I (admittedly not a high bar) once opined that the constitution is not a suicide pact. Perhaps that consideration is more apt now than ever.

[Gary Maxwell]

Hey Rider why dont you come out and admit that you think we should accept OBL offer of a truce. You think we are losing, so why not a truce? Be honest its ok you're among friends. It will be so empowering to not have to hide your true feelings, just let it out man.

[topsecretk9]

I'd say the burden of proof is on you or the former Sudanese officials, bud. You're making the allegation, back it up. Personally, I don't put too much faith in Sudanese officials.

Funny, you put a lot of faith in Nigeiern ones.

[topsecretk9]

Nigeiern = Nigerien

[kim]

You know this must hurt at the pretend outrage over being dissed.

This really is so interesting. I'm very impressed with the change in tone if this is the real bin Laden. It's almost as if he's really and truly of the belief that we are losing; it's we who he thinks should offer the truce. I believe he's been deceived by the bias of MSM. What a magnificent irony.

But why is the Left deceived by the bias of the MSM. Oh, my, my, my. Such a question. Where's Jay Rosen or Steve Lovelady when we need them.
===========================================

[topsecretk9]

Harry

--You know perfectly well that NEITHER the Clinton administration NOR the Bush administration had any real appreciation of the damage AQ could do or was planning. Even OBL himself, was surprised by the results of the attack on the WTC. The fact is that the "wall" separating intelligence gathering from law enforcement has been needlessly high for several decades and it finally bit us on the tail.--

Thank you for pointing this out, yet again. I appreciate it, while you may not be a kid, you seem pretty feisty to me!

[topsecretk9]

Where's Jay Rosen or Steve Lovelady when we need them. --

too busy bolstering hamsher's anti-kate o'brien/post crusade? Priorities people, priorities.

[topsecretk9]

Kim--
Shouldn't Matthew be sending the Post flowers by now?

[topsecretk9]

and Kim, one other thing...have you noticed the glossy overness of certain news items on certain sides?

[MayBee]

And now the Washington Post has this story:

The Author Who Got A Big Boost From bin Laden Historian 'Glad' of Mention As Sales of Book Skyrocket

By David Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, January 21, 2006; Page C01

Twenty-four hours after Osama bin Laden told the world that the American people should read the work of a little-known Washington historian, William Blum was still adjusting.

Blum, who at 72 is accustomed to laboring in relative left-wing obscurity, checked his emotions and pronounced himself shocked and, well, pleased.

Says William Blum of Osama: "I'm not repulsed by his embrace of my book." (By Lois Raimondo -- The Washington Post)

"This is almost as good as being an Oprah book," he said yesterday between telephone calls from the world media and bites of a bagel. "I'm glad." Overnight, his 2000 work, "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower," had become an Osama book.
...
From Blum's end of the conversations, you could tell the reporters were expecting him to express some kind of discomfort, remorse, maybe even shame. Blum refused to acknowledge feelings he did not have.
...
And if Bush decides to carry on with his lies and oppression, then it would be useful for you to read the book 'Rogue State,' which states in its introduction: 'If I were president, I would stop the attacks on the United States: First, I would give an apology to all the widows and orphans and those who were tortured. Then I would announce that American interference in the nations of the world has ended once and for all.' "

By last night, "Rogue State" shot up from 205,763 to 26 on Amazon.com's index of the most-ordered books.

"I'm calling it the book review of the decade," said Sam Smith, editor of the Progressive Review in Washington and a fan of Blum's work. Smith, too, has blurbed the book ("an especially well-documented encyclopedia of malfeasance") as has Gore Vidal.

But of course, it is outrageous that anyone should have to be associated with Osama's words. Or a member of his bookgroup.

[MayBee]

Oh sorry...bad editing.

The part that begins "And if Bush..." and ends "for all" are BinLaden's words from his speech.

[chuck]

Osama says 5+5=10... Liberals say 5+5=10...
Therefore: I'm a _blanking_ android whose capacity to reason has been stolen by my ideology, and fed back to me as the fading pleasure of self-satisfaction that comes with hating other Americans instead of our enemy.
If bin Laden's argument is that war profiteering is involved in this WOT... who could argue, that's not on the payroll... I think he's a %&#*'ing fascistic 13th century religious kook... but it's obvious that this "WOT" isn't about defeating radical Islam, and securing peaceful civilization. It's about winning elections (hence all the American hating from the Right... all on cue... with their pravda feeding them lines), and making money... which is being made hand-over-fist, from taxed income by the Federal government, and from paying at the pump. Ideology may cover these urges, but they are still real.

This war helps:
1. al Qaeda: by whipping up recruits. Int'l terrorism id up more than 200% since before the Iraw invasion. Incidents are up. Casualties are up. Numbers of suicide bombers willing to blow themselves to bits for Islamofascism are up. These are facts. Your ideology may not support them... but they are still facts.
2. Defense contractors... they brag about it... about how the government will pay whatever they ask in Iraq... about the war will be "good times" for business "bad times for people."
3. Did you notice my INdex find crash today... and NRG sticks soar. This war with no exit strategy and multiple paths for escalation helps them.

Now... that's not the whole reason WHY we're in this war... but that's who profits. Not my Mom in Wichita... she was safe from terrorists anyway (except maybe right wing gun nuts).

We should kill Osama (because he's a fanatic murderer)... but that doesn't mean that when he says its daytime, it's actually night.

[chuck]

As I read these comments... it's amazing the work that's done by yideology that would normally be done by critical reasoning.

My Pet Goat... Bush has no plan.

These are objective facts... of course many different people refer to them... its the REAL BLANKING WORLD. If Bush crashed his bike, are we not supposed to refer to it because our enemies do too?! If he's a clumsy amature at biking, we will all realize it, and may well comment on it. The FACTS are not pro-al Qaeda. The GOP could have had a McCain presidency. Forward leaning, hard-on-terror... COMPETENT. THey didn't.

They chose a middle aged drunk child of privelege who fails every time he's met with a challenge: business, the first 10 0minutes of 9/11, Tora Bora, the Iraw insurgency, Katrina.

That's the LEFT'S fault. Give me a BLANKING break. This is brainwashing... and ya'll are clean as a whistle.

[chuck]

excuse misspellings, if you see fit. I type poorly.

[clarice]

The misspellings are okay. The sheer idiocy of the post is hard to endure.

[Jim Rockford]

Rider -- bin Laden is in either Iran or Pakistan. Want war to get him? That's what it will take. Bush likely already approached Dems on this (Biden's trial balloon to his supporters) and was turned down.

No Dem at any time will support WAR with either Pakistan or Iran to get bin Laden. Period.

That about says it all, if the convergence of talking points failed to make the point.

Randy: Howard Dean, Murtha, have attended Code Pink events where they were honored. Code Pink, Communist led org that sent $650,000 to Al Qaeda in Fallujah whilst they were killing Marines. Mainstream Dems are to the LEFT of ANSWER. If anything. Dean (your DNC chair) and Murtha have both said we are losing in Iraq and deserve to lose.

Dems are bottom-line unwilling to use force, and veer into rhetoric that blames the US and not Osama or the Mullahs with regularity. Thus the reaction. Because they ARE paper-thin differences in rhetoric between Osama and Dems. Which is why they lose, even though Bush is barely competent. Given a choice between bare competence and a party supremely hostile to the idea of defending America, people will choose Forrest Gump over Alan Alda.

[clarice]

I think Zawahiri is dead. That he was killed in Damadola.
Capt Ed Morrissey thinks the last tape was a eulogy:

Ed Morrissey thinks Zawahiri is dead, too. He argues the last message was a eulogy:

[quote]It would seem that the intent of posting this recording could be to reassure AQ agents that the chief of operations still lives, and that he intends to continue in the fight. It could also just be a random tape that someone wanted to post for its message, its call to martyrdom. However, it could be something else entirely; it could be a eulogy for a martyred leader. The selection of Zawahiri reading a poem of martyred warriors sounds a bit too coincidental, especially given the circumstances of the missile attack.

A quick review: the CIA gets intel that Zawahiri and several high-level AQ leaders will meet to discuss plans for a spring offensive in Afghanistan in a compound in Damadola. In at least two separate attacks, Hellfire missiles blow up three of the buildings in the compound, killing a number of people. At first, the Pakistanis tell the US that all of the dead were civilians, a family of jewelers -- but we find out that at least five bodies got immediately carted away by "foreigners" before anyone could get a chance to see them. We then find out that at least three of the dead were indeed high-level AQ operatives ... who showed up even after Zawahiri decided not to come?

Why would they show up to a planning meeting if the decision-maker had canceled out?

And were the three people identified as having been killed really so important that their bodies could not be left behind for identification?

Now, a couple of weeks afterward, we have a tape of Zawahiri recalling martyrs by name, but not those who died in Damadola, and giving a poetry reading extolling the virtues of martyrdom by referencing battles long since past. It sounds quite a bit like an Islamist giving Zawahiri an opportunity to eulogize himself.[/quote] http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/006190.php

[Harry Arthur]

Chuck, you are definitely a master of unsubstantiated allegations, half-truths and just plain nonsense. But I have to hand it to you, you've done an excellent job of memorizing Howard Dean's talking points and channeling Michael Moore.

So, having said that, your plan is ...?

I'm not particularly interested in ancient history, who shot John, who was asleep on guard duty, hearing anything about Halliburton, or any other horse hockey you might wish to throw against the barn door.

I'd just like to hear your plan ...

If you have one. I wouldn't even mind you telling me the Schumer plan, or the Kennedy plan, or the Dean plan, or the Kerry plan, or even the Gore plan, without the shouting of course, if they had a plan, or even a clue.

I've heard the Murtha "plan". Didn't make much military sense that I could discern, especially coming from a guy who used to be somewhat lucid if not intelligent. Sorry, he doesn't get a free pass on "things military" because he spent some time in the military and on the HASC.

One further point. I don't want to hear the "chicken hawk" response either. I'm quite sure that we could compare time in the military and I'd wager my military experience would compare favorably with yours, so please stick to the facts ... and your plan of course.

You should have quit with your first post. It was by far the more intelligent of the two and it was seriously deficient. I recommend you take the log out of your own eye before you go looking for splinters in others' eyes.

[topsecretk9]

Chuck
snore
Clarice
I too forgive typography. You were succient.

Maybee
"embrace of my book." (By Lois Raimondo -- The Washington Post)

""I'm not repulsed by his embrace of my book." (By Lois Raimondo -- The Washington Post)

"This is almost as good as being an Oprah book," he said yesterday between telephone calls from the world media and bites of a bagel. "I'm glad." Overnight, his 2000 work, "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower," had become an Osama book..."

So he embraces capaitalism? Doesn't this constitute fraud with his homies?

I only bolded the most beyond silly parts.

Reporter - What's that Mr. Blum, sorry it's sort of hard to hear

Blum- Oh I'm memnebekjhskhwaksahkhasd eating enhksjhkasfhdlkashdfaskhkasdfh a bagel

Reporter- So, does it concern you that terrorist ringleader, murderer asshole has cited your book?

Blum- WHAT? kdshfklasdhfeqiuhfieqar bagel laejflasjdflksjflaskjdBEST THING EVER FOR MY BOOK SALES lkjfdldsjflasjdflkj bagel lkjdfslajdflsdjflskaj OPRAH ldfjldsjflajfa SALES ldsjflasdfjlasdfj I HATE AMERICA AND SO DOES OSA'

[clarice]

Here's more information on Damadola strike:

[quote]Ayman al-Zawahri, the apparent target of the U.S. attack Jan. 13, met his deputy, Abu Farraj al-Libbi, in Damadola last year, the security official said.

Al-Libbi, a Libyan, had confessed to Pakistani interrogators after his capture in May 2005 he met al-Zawahri at Damadola, near the Afghan border, earlier in the year. Al-Libbi was captured after a shootout in another remote hamlet in northwestern Pakistan.

Another high-ranking intelligence official confirmed al-Libbi's account of the meeting, which took place a few months before his arrest. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

"His statement was later verified and we were able to confirm that al-Zawahri visited Damadola," the first official said.

The home was among three destroyed in the pre-dawn airstrike Jan. 13, which killed 13 villagers.

U.S. and Pakistani intelligence — with the aid of local tribesmen and Afghans — began monitoring the home after al-Libbi's confession, the officials said.[/quote] http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2006/01/20/international/i222815S98.DTL&type=printable