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February 25, 2006

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Jeff

TM - I wonder whether the discovery of the emails happened before or after Fitzgerald observed in his letter that not all emails were preserved according to the normal archiving process. If after, are we really supposed to believe that those two things are unconnected? Well, maybe, I suppose, if there have been an ongoing cascade of newly discovered emails, of which this is just the latest. If this is a genuinely new development, and it happened after Fitzgerald's observation, the tech glitch explanation becomes less plausible.

Patrick R. Sullivan

Ol' Jason rises from the ashes again! Some career path.

Jeff

TM - Also, it doesn't really make sense to gain undeserved credibility for your own take on it by way of contrast with the even harder-to-believe take from Leopold. Why not just give us the news and your take on it? Why the detour by way of Leopold?

narexbyrnes

Okay, here is some "wild" speculation. Funny that they were found ... last week. Now what happened last week? Something about the VP shooting a man in the face? But TM is right, nothing to see here ... move along, move along.

spacemonkey

The emails could very well contain a map that show the locations of El Dorado, the fountain of youth and Atlantis, as attachments.

Gary Maxwell

Whoa that is some wicked shit you are smoking there, narexbyrnes. Do you find your memory is not as good these days and that you can eat whole bags of fritos in seconds?

You could probably catch on as a copy writer for politicians in the Middle East. You know where the punchline to everything bad that happens is " The Israelis are behind this."

Oh yeah one more thing BOO! Sorry if you wet your pants from that. I just could not help myself.

Dwilkers

Why don't you go ahead and flesh out your theory for us Jeff. Instead of posting inuendo in every thread I mean.

Something like...the guy that does the archiving used to work for Wittington, Cheney told him to destroy them, he told Wittington, he confronted Cheney, Cheney shot him, and now the e-mail...is showing up anyway. Hey you and narex could write a book. There are still folks selling grassy knoll books after all.

And anyway yeah TM. Why did you write the post the way you did? Please explain to us why you wrote what you did, what you were thinking, and justify who you quoted and why. Because, you know, Raw Story is much more credible than...oh never mind.

kim

He sees Cheney collapsing and Rove frogmarching every time I see Joe hanging, and Berger beside him.
=============================================

clarice

I think it's some really interesting new super secret law that if a Rep administration responds to lies against by anyone who ever drove in Langley, Va, it is a violation of the part of the IIPA written in invisible ink because it is that hush hush.

narexbyrnes

Wow, I think the timing of the emails is suspicious, so I get labeled a dope-smoking, incontinent anti-Semite? Nice. When do I get accused of hating America? Is that next?

Barney Frank

Seems to me a more likely scenario might be that Fitzgerald was informed that some e-mails had only recently been found inducing his letter relating to improper archiving.
How else would he even know there were improperly archived e-mails?

Jeff,
Surely you find some guilty pleasure in Pat Buchanan or Pat Robertson or Rush Limbaugh making what you consider some bizarre commentary. Why deprive TM of the same indulgence. It might not have been an attempt to gain credibility for his own position, so much as just a somewhat bemused look at the never ending permutations of BDS, although in this case it would more properly be CDS.

Shirley Ujest

Funny those emails always just coincidentally "innocently" appear just after Fitz mentions that some were't archived properly. Funny timing ain't it? Funny how you mention Leopold and his credibility, but before I read him, I also read similar mention of the miraculaous reappearing emails all 250 pages in articles from AP and Forbes mentioning them. Funny ain't it.

Wild speculation for likes of you and your typical readers: Wilson's wife colluded with some of her NSA buddies who were doing the illegal domestic spying and "archiving" all emails in and out of the WH. They found these and presented these "illegally collected emails" to Fitzgerald to use. Shorter version, the illegal spying program Shrub ordered was secretly spying on him and his buddies too....jujitsu. Paranoia will destroya!

maryrose

Jeff:
TM I believe provides the contrast in his posting to show you the difference in blatant screeds crying conspiracy and calm reasoned thinking. The contrast is so great and should be noted so those engaged in finding the truth have at least an inkling of the kind of propaganda the Left is willing to engage in to satisfy their BDS fix.

noah

"The emails are said to be explosive,"

Is the "said" referring to anything more substansive than the Raw Story article? One BDSer quoting another without attribution no less, the shame of it all.

And then Jeff pipes up with his own uninformed speculation (admittedly encouraged by TM) but then "unaccountably" complains about TM's reference to BDS bullshit.

See what I mean about certain star stuff or is that interstellar vacuum qualitity?

kim

Shirley Ujest know that datamining has costs and McCain-Feingold regulates the money to pay those costs without flaw.
==============================================

kim

Hey, Narex, Gary was just trying to give you an excuse.

And Surely, co-incidentally I've always thought the P'ya will D'ya chant to be Shiva whistling by the graveyard while building its wall.
===========================

jerry

Leopold previously reported that Abu Gonzales had the emails (in a TruthOut article that was picked up by RawStory). It's an interesting story I think.

PeterUK

narexbyrnes,
Yes there was also the UAE bid on the terminals,the most sacred mosque in Iraq was bombed,just trawl through the papers,you are bound to come up with the meaning of life,the universe......everything.

TM

Also, it doesn't really make sense to gain undeserved credibility for your own take on it by way of contrast with the even harder-to-believe take from Leopold.

Well, I guess "makes sense" depends on the objective. I'll take your point that I am hardly being fair and balanced on this one.

Cecil Turner

Leopold previously reported that Abu Gonzales had the emails . . .

Wouldn't surprise me. I got this far in the current article before deciding it was a complete waste of time:

Cheney said he had received an intelligence briefing on the allegations in late December 2003, or early January 2004, and had asked the CIA for more information about the issue.
Two date errors, two years off? [An editor, an editor, my kingdom for an editor.]

kim

Well, jerry, what sort of tortured meaning do you have for the emails?
=====================================

Anonymous Liberal

This is from a Feb. 3 AP article (click on my name for the link):
,i>Fitzgerald told the judge that he has turned over "99 percent" of the evidence he believes he is obligated to provide to the defense. Last night, he said, he gave 250 pages to the defense. An additional 800 pages were turned over Friday morning, Fitzgerald said.
Could these be the same 250 pages? I have no idea, but if they are, then this is just material requested by Libby's defense team, not mysterious missing emails.

kim

Please, CT, go back and read some more. Perhaps, even more egregious errors await your time.
========================================

Jos Bleau

### WORLD EXCLUSIVE ###

Memos turned over by Vice President's Office to the Scooter Libby legal defense team reveal that Dick Cheney killed Vince Foster in an alledged 'hunting accident' in 1994. Foster, at the time an aid to President Clinton, was long thought to have commited suicide, although rumors ...

Gary Maxwell

A Lib

A rare voice of sanity in a barking moonbat world.

But who knows maybe the Israelis did bomb the Golden dome mosque while doing a test bombing run to Teheran.

Patton

"""not all emails were preserved according to the normal archiving process"""

and
not all special prosecutors were appointed according to the normal appointment process

What did Whittington know, and why did Cheney try to shut him up?

If this were the Clinton adminstration, we'd have a morgue team permanent stationed at Fort Marcy Park.

Patton

Not only was Whittington a secret agent working with Plame, he also worked in the W.H. Travel Office, was the custodian of Rose Law Firm billing records, personnaly knew John Huang and Johnny Chung, slepted with Susan McDougal (who didn't) and was a prison guard for Webster Hubbell.

maryrose

Patton:
Love how you think .That would make Whittingdon a Forrest Gump type of character.

Jos Bleau

Whittington's in this a lot deeper than most people realize.

It just so happens that 20 year old Harry Whittington, motoring arround the Southwest during the summer college break, happened to be passing thru a little town called Roswell, New Mexico on June 24th 1947 ....

PeterUK

Has anyone seen Whittington and Valerie Plame together,this is the reason Cheney tried to shut him/her up.Plameington obviously had the emails on disc as insurance in case anything happened to him/her.

clarice

Now you're just being silly, peter..Whittington is Plame--that's why they kept him under wraps for a week and when he reappeared even the dermablend and pretend bird shot wounds were insufficient to hide the plastic surgery scars.

Patrick R. Sullivan

' Why not just give us the news and your take on it? Why the detour by way of Leopold?'

Entertainment value. Especially when Jason himself arrives on the scene to first call us right wing nazis, and then tell us the world of journalism is filled with editors who refuse to work with him a second time.

Lew Clark

It gets even worse. According to reliable anonymous sources who may, or may not, be close to the investigation, and may, or may not be able to tie their own shoes without the help of a nurse, 207 of the 250 emails were from Harry Whittington, were sent from a Kinkos in Abilene Texas, and use the 1972 Texas Air National Guard version of Microsoft Word.

clarice

Maybe the ADA requires the press to hire a certain number of certificable kooks though it appears they've exceeded the required number by quite a bit.

PeterUK

Clarice,
Joe is in for a surprise.

clarice

It's for a good cause, peteruk.

Patton

narexbyrnes writes:
"""Wow, I think the timing of the emails is suspicious, so I get labeled a dope-smoking, incontinent anti-Semite? Nice. When do I get accused of hating America? Is that next? """""


WELCOME TO THE CLUB, I THOUGHT CLINTON SHOULD WELL REMEMBER RECEIVING ORAL SEX AND SODOMIZING A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND I WAS LABELLED NUTS FOR OVER A YEAR.

Apparently, Clinton couldn't recall ever being with Lewinsky because there were so many darn interns he was sodomizing he lost track.

Maybe you could actually explain with some factual basis why you find the timing suspicious, or is it that you just allways find misplaced e-mails suspicious??
What is the nexus of your argument that the Whittington shooting and the e-mails have anything to do with each other??

SteveMG

Well off topic here but this is a fascinating exhibit on Churchill and his relationship with the Great Republic (that's us) here:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/

Terrific interactive exhibition with sound of Churchill's speeches, et cetera.

We are indeed standing on the shoulders of giants.

SMG

TM

When do I get accused of hating America? Is that next?

Didn't Karl Rove make it clear that that is the default labeling?

What we have here is a failure to communicate...

Specter

Narexbyrnes,

don't you know that if we wanted to deflect something like that we would just come up with another OBL tape. Geez - get in step with the rest of the lefties.

MTT

SMG,

OT, yes, but unbelievable.

This might be the coolest interactive web site ever.

Ever.

Really.

Thanks.

Patton

Me and the boys here at NSA are working on the next UBL tape right now, in preparation for the Rove indictment. I know it was supposed to be last Christmas and we are a little behind.

Just need to finsh adding all the 'Allah be praised" crapola and a salute to Al Gore.

Ohh, and thank CNN and NYT for not offending my his religion by broadcasting a cartoon.

clarice

TM you do know you are way too subtle, don't you?

topsecretk9

my guess is that the archival activity is handled by techies operating independently of the politicos,

During Clinton Admin this job was farmed out to an independent contractor, so it's probably a safe bet there are 2 layers of independence here.

clarice

I'm certain Cheney did this himself in his sparetime.

ed

Hmmm.

Some of you have really lost your minds. I'll check back in a couple weeks to see if sanity has prevailed.

Or not.

Beto Ochoa

Actually, the e-mails were found taped to the back of the Rose Law Firm billing records where they had been kept safely until the statute of limitations passed.

clarice

HEH Right under Hillary's calculations as to when to buy and sell her cattle futures..

kim

Someone else did the calculating, she did the collecting. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?
========================================

Bob in Pacifica

Maybe they just found the emails. You know, they were lost but now are found. Just like Judy Miller found the notes that she couldn't find until she spent some time behind bars. Sometimes people just need some incentive to go back and work a little harder to find those things that they think were lost.

Interested Conservative

Wake me if these materials contain the secret list of ingredients for Coca Cola or the Colonel's secret recipe.

Jim E.

250 pages, not necessarily 250 e-mails.

maryrose

Perhaps we can refresh Craig Livingstone's memory about who hired him and how 300 FBI files on mostly republicans ended up at the White House without anyone's order or approval.I bet there's still a missing couch or two after Bill and Hil's Bonnie and Clyde exit. I wonder if anyone lost pension or stock benefits when the Madison Guaranty and Trust went belly up at the hands of the McDougals? Did the hilbil duo lose anything in that implosion or was their money already out?

MJW

I hope someone will provide a transcript from Friday's hearing so we can learn exactly what was said. Whatever I may think of FireDogLake.com (and it's none too favorable), one of their minion was helpful enough to go to the courthouse after the previous hearing to get a transcript to post.

kim

You're working too hard, Bob.
=============================

Javani

"We are aware of no evidence pertinent to the charges against defendant Libby which has been destroyed," Fitzgerald wrote in a letter to the defense team."


Key word "pertinent." Naturally Ftizgerald thinks the identity of the Novak leaker is "irrelevant", egro "pertinent" means here "important."

So what was destroyed???

Beto Ochoa

Eventually, his reputation.

Neo

The e-mails are said to contain the formula for Coke (Classic and New), the ultimate chicken salad, the herbs and spices in KFC chicken, the backdoor password to all Windows machines and the location of the Judge Crater, Jimmy Hoffa and the Holy Grail.

That is explosive.

JM Hanes

I"m voting with for Anonymous Lib on this one.

Gary -- I can't believe you forgot to call narexbyrnes unpatriotic! The standards around here have gotten really lax.

kim

I wanta know where Ambrose Bierce is and why he hates America.
============================================

jerry

Well kim ===== ;-), I'd ask why Mr. Abu Gonzalez hid the VP-Cheney emails from Fitzgerald for such a long time (was this an official policy of the Administration?, God I love this country). I'd ask what
"national security" interest (what WH official?) caused Mr. Gonzalez to hide these Cheney emails over so many months, and why are they now are releasing them (desperation?!).

I'm not concerned with Mr. Gonzalez's love of torture, though I am happy that some responsible people have a great interest in this.

Gonzalez can't imagine a career beyond George W Bush and that is his great mistake.

kim

You seem to know a lot about these emails. Don't torture us. Spill your guts.
============================================

jerry

My guts are all mine man, you should be asking Big Dick these big questions. I'm now waiting on Mr. Abu G, a public official and made-man in the Bush universe, to elaborate on this very interesting story.

Gary Maxwell

OK OK OK

Narexbyrnes do you hate America?

Hows that JM? I am sure he has passed out from the dope by now so dont expect a response.

kim

OK, then, play your cards. Since there's no money on the table I assumed you wanted to show us you had guts.

Put up or shut up. You don't know anything about these emails, do you?
=========================================

jerry

Well, maybe I do and maybe I don't... why don't you apply that criteria to TM, Clarice-the-Nixonian, or anyone else on this blog?

We're all hand=waving here, though I'd say some people only can use one hand. You're a bit mysterious yourself kim, in my opinion.

I just think that (the AG!) releasing a bunch of VP emails after withholding them from the prosecutor for a rather long period of time is sort of interesting, observing the Libby/WH defense in real time looks like obstruction.

Specter

Another conspiracy jerry? Gee - every time you start a with post it is with another conspiracy. Remember the last one you came up with - that they cooked up the VP's ability to declassify things so they could catch somebody in a political ambush?

jerry

I'll stand strong on that one (VP leaking for partisan purposes), we're just waiting on the reporting.

Leonidas

"Put up or shut up. You don't know anything about these emails, do you?"

There's no reason to think that there's anything important in the emails. In fact, I suspect there isn't.

Prediction: Libby walks. Focus shifts to Pillar, Wilkeron, Clarke, and, yes, Joe Wilson himself.

Specter

got any proof? I mean that is all people are asking you to provide....

Specter

Otherwise it is called a SWAG....

jerry

I'd say the same is true of Fitzgerald, Rove, Libby, Cheney, Bush, etc.... You'd like to limit speculation to me, but there are a some larger players out there you might devote your time to.

Do the easy thing, read something other than this blog.

Rick Ballard

That would be WAG - t'aint no scientific in it.

MayBee
I just think that (the AG!) releasing a bunch of VP emails after withholding them from the prosecutor

Withholding being such an active word. It is slipping simple little words into a story that creates the building blocks for a conspiracy.

Leonidas

Jerry, enough with the conspiracy theories. Isn't a new Michael Moore movie coming out fairly soon? Once that hits, I'm sure you'll have some primo stuff for us all.

Specter

Rick,

When dealing in engineering circles I use the "S" in SWAG as "Scientific". But, for jerry I use "Silly".

jerry,

I read much, much more than you know. Bottom line is that if you want to theorize that is fine - but instead of stating things as if they are facts, simply state that you "believe" it. Even if it is nutz.

I'll give you an example:
Based on what I've seen and heard jerry has been institutionalized for a long time and much more help is needed.

See - I stated that as a fact when in reality it is only a theory -something I believe. Good luch with getting out though...

jerry

You guys, and conspiracy theories... a group of two people would scare you into a web-FLAME. Maybe it's a fear of the (scary-non-Republican) unknown?

I'll add that I like JOM because I can learn what the other side is thinking. Then go off and recover with some good wine.

PeterUK

"Well, maybe I do and maybe I don't.."

I take it that's a no?

jerry

never seen the inside of an institution here... sometimes it seems like a nice solution - especially in W world.

Specter

Well jerry...you are the one who said that the AG withheld the emails. Now if you aren't stating that it was a conspiracy, what the heck was your point? It's not that we see conspiracies jerry...it is that you do. Don't you get it?

And you finally said something factual...that you "go off..."

Specter

Well jerry...you are the one who said that the AG withheld the emails. Now if you aren't stating that it was a conspiracy, what the heck was your point? It's not that we see conspiracies jerry...it is that you do. Don't you get it?

And you finally said something factual...that you "go off..."

Specter

I suspect jerry that if you went down to your local police station, especially after some of that fine wine, and told them you wanted to make a statement about the AG withholding emails on purpose, that they would be very nice and help you find one of those institutions.

PeterUK

"I,ve got a secret".
"What is it?"
"I'm not telling you,it's a secret".

kim

I'm all for recovery and good whines.
======================================

PeterUK

If you are going near a police station,best get rid of the brown bags first.

jerry

I'm just refering to Leopold's article last week, I'd like someone (like Pat Roberts, see I'm being easy) to determine the whether Abu Gonzalez withheld the emails and who was involved in this decision.

Responding to Spectre, it is significant that someone (Gonzolez or not) withheld Cheney's emails for so long, isn't it? And why would someone do this?

I don't recall raising the "conspiracy" question at any time here, or elsewhere.

PeterUK

"Responding to Spectre, it is significant that someone (Gonzolez or not) withheld Cheney's emails for so long, isn't it? And why would someone do this?"

That is called a conspiracy.You just raised the question.

clarice

What's obvious is that even Fitz doesn't think so and has accepted it seems the archiving problem--In any event, you know he raised the missing emails only to defend against any claim that he withheld evidence in discovery from Libby?

Specter

You are raising the question by asserting that someone purposely withheld the emails. Maybe the real question should be, "What happened to the emails in question?" But instead you state, as if stating a fact, that someone withheld them. That has not been proven, nor as far as we know even questioned. You went further by stating that it was the AG who withheld the emails. So if you are not saying there is a conspiracy, what are you saying?

Specter

jeryr

Rick Ballard

Well, you could probably get John Conyers to hold a hearing in a janitor's closet in the basement. Would that be helpful?

Somebody needs to investigate this!!!

Try winning an election and you can have at it.

Specter

Maybe we could appoint another SP with unlimited powers and no supervision to look into this.....

Specter

That's it for me...G'Night all - even you jerry. Hope all of your evenings went well. And jerry - really - don't go to the police station. It would not end up well....

clarice

Niters...

jerry

I'll ignore the conspiracy stuff (though it might well involve beloved public figures).

Ahh, Clarice. Where have you been? Fitz works in the lawyerly world, I'm not constrained by his responsibilities. Why do you think the AG (Abu Gonzalez) would withhold Mr. Cheney's emails for so long?

I suppose the question of "conspiracy" awaits some action on Fitzgerald's part, so thus far you're all ok - of course this could change in a painful way for the WH at any time.


kim

Ouch. The agony of it all.
==========================

Leonidas

Jerry, how about a gentleman's wager? If Libby gets convicted, you win. If Wilson, Clarke, or Pillar gets convicted, I win. What do you say?

MayBee
Why do you think the AG (Abu Gonzalez) would withhold Mr. Cheney's emails for so long?

Ummm...'cause he didn't know they existed due to an archival problem?


narciso79

What is Jason Leopold, best known for; a 'smoking gun' Enron memo, that didn't
exist.

Jeff

TM - Two things. First, maybe this is obvious, but I take it the point of Fitzgerald's letter on the emails that was released early in February is: we're not aware of any destroyed evidence, but we don't want to declare that none was, in light of the fact that some stuff wasn't preserved according to protocol. So we're holding our options open, strictly speaking, on whether evidence has been destroyed or not. Not saying that makes it at all likely any emails were not archived for nefarious reasons, but it does again raise the question of why Fitzgerald included that point in a letter he pretty much knew would be made public. Maybe just to be a pain.

Second, tracking down the February 3 AP report discussed by Anonymous Liberal that mentions 250 pages of emails -- maybe the same as the 250 mentioned yesterday, maybe not -- I realized that the transcript we have of the February 3 hearing is incomplete, and funnily enough, is only of the closed part of the hearing, not the part that was open to the public at the time. At least that's how it seems to me at the moment. There seems to be no mention of the 250 pages given by Fitzgerald to the defense team the night before in the Feb. 3 transcript we have, for instance.

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Wilson/Plame