It's Hard Out Here For A Black Man (Cont.)

The Times follows up on last Tuesday's gloomy statistical portrait of black men in America with an op-ed piece by Harvard sociology professor Orlando Patterson.  His theme - people are unwilling to invoke cultural explanations:

SEVERAL recent studies have garnered wide attention for reconfirming the tragic disconnection of millions of black youths from the American mainstream. But they also highlighted another crisis: the failure of social scientists to adequately explain the problem, and their inability to come up with any effective strategy to deal with it.

The main cause for this shortcoming is a deep-seated dogma that has prevailed in social science and policy circles since the mid-1960's: the rejection of any explanation that invokes a group's cultural attributes — its distinctive attitudes, values and predispositions, and the resulting behavior of its members — and the relentless preference for relying on structural factors like low incomes, joblessness, poor schools and bad housing.

Prof. Patterson cites "Black Males Left Behind" and alludes to "Reconnecting Disadvantaged Young Men".  He then offers this:

This is all standard explanatory fare. And, as usual, it fails to answer the important questions. Why are young black men doing so poorly in school that they lack basic literacy and math skills? These scholars must know that countless studies by educational experts, going all the way back to the landmark report by James Coleman of Johns Hopkins University in 1966, have found that poor schools, per se, do not explain why after 10 years of education a young man remains illiterate.

Nor have studies explained why, if someone cannot get a job, he turns to crime and drug abuse. One does not imply the other. Joblessness is rampant in Latin America and India, but the mass of the populations does not turn to crime.

And why do so many young unemployed black men have children — several of them — which they have no resources or intention to support? And why, finally, do they murder each other at nine times the rate of white youths?

What's most interesting about the recent spate of studies is that analysts seem at last to be recognizing what has long been obvious to anyone who takes culture seriously: socioeconomic factors are of limited explanatory power. Thus it's doubly depressing that the conclusions they draw and the prescriptions they recommend remain mired in traditional socioeconomic thinking.

Prof. Patterson tells us why we are mired:

Why have academics been so allergic to cultural explanations? Until the recent rise of behavioral economics, most economists have simply not taken non-market forces seriously. But what about the sociologists and other social scientists who ought to have known better? Three gross misconceptions about culture explain the neglect.

First is the pervasive idea that cultural explanations inherently blame the victim; that they focus on internal behavioral factors and, as such, hold people responsible for their poverty, rather than putting the onus on their deprived environment. (It hasn't helped that many conservatives do actually put forth this view.)

...Second, it is often assumed that cultural explanations are wholly deterministic, leaving no room for human agency. This, too, is nonsense. Modern students of culture have long shown that while it partly determines behavior, it also enables people to change behavior. People use their culture as a frame for understanding their world, and as a resource to do much of what they want.

...Third, it is often assumed that cultural patterns cannot change — the old "cake of custom" saw. This too is nonsense. Indeed, cultural patterns are often easier to change than the economic factors favored by policy analysts, and American history offers numerous examples.

My favorite is Jim Crow, that deeply entrenched set of cultural and institutional practices built up over four centuries of racist domination and exclusion of blacks by whites in the South. Nothing could have been more cultural than that. And yet America was able to dismantle the entire system within a single generation, so much so that today blacks are now making a historic migratory shift back to the South, which they find more congenial than the North.

And finally we get to the "Dionysian trap":

So what are some of the cultural factors that explain the sorry state of young black men? They aren't always obvious. Sociological investigation has found, in fact, that one popular explanation — that black children who do well are derided by fellow blacks for "acting white" — turns out to be largely false, except for those attending a minority of mixed-race schools.

An anecdote helps explain why: Several years ago, one of my students went back to her high school to find out why it was that almost all the black girls graduated and went to college whereas nearly all the black boys either failed to graduate or did not go on to college. Distressingly, she found that all the black boys knew the consequences of not graduating and going on to college ("We're not stupid!" they told her indignantly).

SO why were they flunking out? Their candid answer was that what sociologists call the "cool-pose culture" of young black men was simply too gratifying to give up. For these young men, it was almost like a drug, hanging out on the street after school, shopping and dressing sharply, sexual conquests, party drugs, hip-hop music and culture, the fact that almost all the superstar athletes and a great many of the nation's best entertainers were black.

Not only was living this subculture immensely fulfilling, the boys said, it also brought them a great deal of respect from white youths. This also explains the otherwise puzzling finding by social psychologists that young black men and women tend to have the highest levels of self-esteem of all ethnic groups, and that their self-image is independent of how badly they were doing in school.

I call this the Dionysian trap for young black men. The important thing to note about the subculture that ensnares them is that it is not disconnected from the mainstream culture. To the contrary, it has powerful support from some of America's largest corporations. Hip-hop, professional basketball and homeboy fashions are as American as cherry pie. Young white Americans are very much into these things, but selectively; they know when it is time to turn off Fifty Cent and get out the SAT prep book.

I'm a bit surprised by his theme - I would have thought that problems with inner-city culture have been discussed for decades.  Just for example, what have people meant by "babies raising babies", or by worrying about absent fathers?

MORE:  This PBS chat between David Gergen and Orlando Patterson from back in 1997 is fascinating.  Prof. Patterson whacks everyone for deliberately understating the progress we have made:

ORLANDO PATTERSON: Well, for the right wants to castigate the government for the failures of its--all its programs on behalf of the poor, the Afro-American poor. It makes sense they exaggerate the problem to show how we’re losing ground because of the horrendous government interference in policies, so that welfare dependency and so on is increasing and it’s increasing because of rotten government policies. For the left, the liberal group, exaggerating the problem, emphasizing that America is chronically racist seems--is mistakenly believed that this will keep the pressure up for government to intervene even more. And the criticism here is just the opposite of the right, which is that things are bad because the government hasn’t gone far enough, or there’s still, the place is still chronically racist, so there’s still a need for more government intervention.

And for Afro-American leadership emphasizing racism as being--America as irredeemably racist--enhances their broker role, obviously, and again mistakenly is based on the view that by presenting an image of almost no progress, you will increase the possibility of greater intervention. And it’s also partly due to the tragic commitment to the ideology of the victim, a very deterministic view, which I’m afraid most Afro-American leadership has adopted, which tends to assume that by perceiving of Afro-Americans as victims you increase the chance of intervention on their behalf. Now, unfortunately, this worked. This is the strategy of the 60's. It’s interesting that the great Supreme Court decision, which struck down school segregation, was based on a determinist view, i.e., social scientists were brought in to show that it created victims, rather than the view that this is the right thing to do.

UPDATE: "Blogs for Industry" thinks deeply and points to the Joy Jones article in the WaPo titled "Marriage Is For White People".

Comments

[clarice]

In The Perfect Latin American Idiots, four former lefty journos did a brilliant job in explaining the persistent Latam myths that keep that area poor.It is ,they note,cultural factors not crap economic theories (like the latest, American purchases are theft from Latam) that explain Latam poverty.

Someone should do a similar favor for Blacks in America, though it probably will be ignored as that fine book is.

[larwyn]

The race merchants and their LSM buddies will ignore this as they did Cosby.

Only can offer some magical thinking:

If only we could flash freeze the likes of Jessie, Al, Congressional Black Caucus and all the Hip-Hopper
entertainment circle - no BET, no MTV - ALL GONE.

They would be defrosted in 40 years or when the Artic Ice Cap melts, whichever came first.

Back in the real world - solving this without something drastic, as above, will be as difficult as getting Shari'a law out of the muslim countries.

I pray for both, but doubt it will be in my lifetime.

[boris]

For every complex problem there is a simple obvious solution that is 100% wrong.

Trial and error would work better than hammering away with the wrong (but politically correct) solutions. Too bad social programs aren't subjected to the same testing rigor that pharmecuticals are.

[kim]

He's right the dialogue is poisoned. Not all the music is.

Charter schools.
=================================

[larwyn]

Boris,
That's what elections are all about.
I watch a lot of CSPAN, the panels led by Tavis Smiley, authors' presentation of the their books and yesterday watched bits of a "townhall meeting" in New Orleans. Discouraging.
And the reality is this perpetual victim status keeps a lot of Lefty social "science" grads employed. Not to mention the fortunes that are made on "block grants".
My truth spoke in jest above is
that Thomas Sowell isn't "cool".
Voices of sense and morality will not be heard by that 20/30% that cannot listen. Certainly not while they are humming "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp!" and all those other catchy ditties.

The NYT's printing this should make me feel hopeful - but I rather fear a trap. If Rush and conservative talk radio or conservative writers jump on this, they had better chose words and phrasing very carefully.

2006 Midterms are only 8 months away - would not the Left love to have some recent comments to add to the Katrina meme.

I know I am getting very cynical - but too many have too much to lose, beginning with our Universities.

We need to elect spined conservatives that will pass school vouchers, break the NEA and give some brain transplants to the black "entertainment" industry.

Just as we need "moderate" muslims to stand up and against Islamists, we need that decent moral majority of blacks who exist to stand up to all the forces that promote and make "cool" this self-destructive culture.

Problem there is unless you are making a fortune in pop culture - you're an Oreo - not worth listening to.

[kim]

Charter schools may accomplish as much as vouchers without the fight, and they could thrive if the NEA could ever see their own self interest in them.

There are some very productive themes in 'black' music. Sometimes the poetry and musicality are outstanding.
========================

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

' Sociological investigation has found, in fact, that one popular explanation — that black children who do well are derided by fellow blacks for "acting white" — turns out to be largely false, except for those attending a minority of mixed-race schools.'

Actually, it is true, except for blacks who attend all black schools:

http://www.educationnext.org/unabridged/20061/52.pdf

[larwyn]

Kim,
"There are some very productive themes in 'black' music. Sometimes the poetry and musicality are outstanding."
This is a great example of my not
phrasing my comment "appropriately".
If I discarded from my collection of favorites - from LP's over past 40 plus years - all the Black artists, it would be much easier to rearrange furniture around here.
And I have seen reports that supposedly show that the "Charter
Schools" aren't giving good results.
You can't put the same people in charge in a new building - that's like rearranging the deck chairs.
I mean these are the people trying to talk us into accepting Ebonics, while they are limiting the vocabulary that may be used in textbooks. Only words that an average child of a given age already would know, that's the criteria.They are changing classic childrens' literature to conform.
Read this article from today's
NYT's

Schools Cut Back Subjects to Push Reading and Math
March 26, 2006 By SAM DILLON
It is insane. I posted a comment re it very early this AM in the PDB
thread.
Can't the great historian instead of testifying in Congress about History being dropped, just write some grade appropriate "History Readers"? Or
is it only learning reading if you are doing "See Spot run."?

[larwyn]

Kim,
Here's a link to the recent SC&A post:Mamacita on the Thorndike List

[maryrose]

Vouchers and charter schools are the answer along with more at-risk programs for promising students. NEA and teacher unions are in the way because they are afraid of losing enrollment and their jobs-neither of which will happen. Seniority has to go-keep teachers on a merit based system with proven results via testing and individual progress.Stop social promotion and give parents a wake-up call about their child's attendance.

[reliapundit]

the left (and phony frank fukyoumama says we cant impose democracy on iraqis because they don't have the cultural apparatus of a civil society.

soem say muslims can;t make a funcitonal democracy because islam is incompatible with democracy/pluralism.

many of these same people say that white racism and NOT hip-hop/thug afro-american culture is responsible for continued black underprformance.

this is hypocritical.

bill cosby has it right on black underperformance: the community largely accepts and even valorizes bad stuff. the community needs to become more demanding and reestablish the importance of education.

if bklacks wnant to excel - and if iraqis want democracy - then they're gonna havta struggle for it like everyone else.

to succeed inb that struggle takes perseverance. perseverance takes encouragement.

encouragelmeent is PERSONAL and upclose: from the familes first.

the satictsoc says af-am familes need to do abetter job and be more demanding of black men, and give these men encouragement when they fall short because it IS tough out there for everyone.men

[TM]

...is it only learning reading if you are doing "See Spot run."?

My question exactly - surely a history class can be taught in conjunction with "English" classes, since reading and writing are involved.

And plenty of science involves mathematics. I did not understand this Times article.

[LARWYN]

TM,
"Pushing Reading and Math"
That article is insane.

Do you think that since a lot of people are actually reporting that the Medicare Drug plan is working and saving money, they're trying to work up attacks on the NCLB?

Unless you have BDS or read at
3rd grade level, the piece makes no sense.

I posted early AM on the Hadley thread, saying exactly what you just wrote. Use Math to lay a foundation for science. Have no idea how much science one could absorb without a good mathmatics start.

It was AJ that posted and linked
to the piece on the Thorndike List.
Just use words in textbooks that children already know.

Makes one want to shake some people silly.

[clarice]

Maybe it's worth going back to the Daily Howler who last week geshrayed about the stupidity to making every kid in California pass Algebra even though most can't do long division.

At some point we have to recognize as my friend Burt Pines did years ago in Back to Basics that we are loading up the curriculum with everything but the basics and the basics are what have to be mastered first.

Not so long ago we recognized that many kids can't do more than that and reserved college prep stuff for kids who had the will and capacity to handle them. Now we are handing out 6th grade history books to kids who can't read first grade English and demanding college prep for kids who can't meet reasonable 6th grade standards.Then we sit around wondering why so many kids drop out without being able to support themselves.

[clarice]

***Should read "the stupidity OF making every kid in California pass Algebra ..."

[larwyn]

Clarice,
I read that but didn't save it or link and my memory is getting as worn out as my 97 Gateway!
I'd like to add that link to the
two I posted today.
Think it should be sent to Lou
Dobbs to included in one his "outsourcing" rants. HaHa!

[clarice]

I didn't save it either, larwyn. I'm sorry. But as usual he raised some interesting points.

[Jake - but not the one]

The drug plan is working? The best Bush can say is to damn the program with faint praise - it shows "signs" of lowering costs. I think he must be reading them in his tea cup.

Let's hope it's his tea cup.

The WAPO and Bush on the drug plan.

By way of a Yahoo search. I'd be happy to find something that flat disagreed with the assertion, but, hey faint praise works, too.

Jake

PS - is this more magical thinking? Sort of like the flowers reception in Iraq?

[larwyn]

Jake,
People that had incomes that were too high to qualify for their state's Medicaid program and were paying for their RX's out of pocket are benefiting greatly from the program.

If you are a reasonable person, please tell me how a person, as described above, who got thru 2005 alive paying for the RX's - suddendly on Jan 1st 2006 was at death's door because their registration was not yet accessible?

That is what the LSM protrayed most of January. Didn't you wonder how these people made it thru 2004 and 2005, with no Medicare Drug Plan?

If you heard the rebuttal to the President's radio address on Saturday, it was stated that a small town druggest had to sell out to a chain because he gave away
$60,000.00 worth of RX's so people wouldn't die.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

On CNBC, no lover of GW, it was stated that due to all the competition that the monthly fee which was to be $37.00 was now down to $27.00. And the reports are once people are registered properly, they are very happy with their savings.

With 8 months before the midterms, millions more will be properly registered and it will be harder for the Dems to spin the results. Hence, it looks as if they want to turn spotlight on NCLB.

Months to go, and then we'll see.

[kim]

I love the irony. There will be wailing that the testing requirements of NCLB have forced the return to basics.

I also mean a lot of contemporary black music is great, as well as older stuff.

Most of the reports of poor performance from charter schools is propaganda from its opponents. It brings accountability by contract, for teachers, students, and parents.
=======================

[kim]

Jake, settle for purple fingers, not flowers. What did you think it was, Paris?

I think the drug bill is a horrible boondoggle, needlessly hooking our seniors on a treatment modality which has come to the fore largely because it is the only one that can be effectively blinded by placebo, but the point that it will be better functioning
in the future is, alas, true.
============================================

[Daddy]

Nobel Physicist Richard Feynman was probably the smartest guy this country's produced in the last 100 years. In I believe his second autobiography, "What Do You Care What Other People Think", he spends a few pages talking about how as a CalTech Prof in the early 60's, he gets assigned the side job of having to sit in on the California school board bureacrat meetings when the New Math textbooks are being proposed. Reading the proposed texts, Feynman comments something to the effect of what in the world are you guys doing by eliminating the practical, understandable fundamentals, and shoving in boatloads of Venn diagramy sort of uninteresting and irrelevant crap. He basically winds up pulling his hair out in a futile effort to try to stop these well intentioned but misguided zealots from creating future generations of teenagers who can't make change at a McDonalds. Whenever I'm stuck in some gawd-awful meeting, I'm always able to chuckle a bit, thinking how much more excruciating it must have been for such a genius as him to have to suffer through school board administrators speechifying. Double Ughh.

[clarice]

Wasn't that part of his book an eye opener, Daddy?

Some years ago the New Yorker ran a story on how history books are vetted through a similar--though nationwide--process. It was also appalling.

[kim]

Surely you're joking, Ms Feldman.
===================

[clarice]

*wink*

Larwyn, don't miss Daily Howler today on reading and writing and the NYT:http://www.dailyhowler.com/

[Daddy]

Kim, great comment! Laughing out loud.

[Jake - but not the one]

Purple finger, kim? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

It's that group of elected do-nothings that right now are pushing their country down a rat-hole.

Yes, democracy is hard. But it ain't democracy that's the problem here, it's sectarian power plays and a total lack of comrpromise.

All of which was foreseen by the State Dept and unheeded by the administration. Planning for bad outcomes is so inconvenient, don't you think?

And, yes, since we are STUCK with the drug plan, I certainly hope it becomes truly workable for everyone concerned.

I may be driving a beater pickup, but I am far happier when it works, even if it isn't the best truck on the road.

Jake

[Daddy]

Jake, Please don't get in a five-car pile-up in your beater pick-up, because as I understand it, the Washington Post is seriously looking for a new columnist.

[Jake - but not the one]

Daddy, they don't want me. I am challenged in so many ways. Ben would look like a godsend.

At least if it was someone from the radical right they wanted.

Jake

[larwyn]

Clarice,
Tks for link. Great to see that DH came to same opinion of column as I did early Sunday and put on Hadley thread.

I had saved this from AEI, if anyone doubts what LEFT is doing, read it:

Glitzy Texts, Dull Students
By Adam Schaeffer
Posted Date: Wednesday, September 28, 2005
Whether they're covering physics or lyric poetry, the textbooks handed to K-12 school children are receiving failing grades from scholars on the left, right, and center.
http://www.aei.org/publication23265

[The Unbeliever]

Yes, democracy is hard. But it ain't democracy that's the problem here, it's sectarian power plays and a total lack of comrpromise. All of which was foreseen by the State Dept and unheeded by the administration. Planning for bad outcomes is so inconvenient, don't you think?

To paraphrase a stolen quote, pushing democracy in the Middle East was the worst plan the Administration could have pursued... except for all the others.

And I'd think twice about trusting the State Department on matters of war and conflict. They are, after all, an entire organization dedicated to the avoidance of conflict at all costs; it's not hard to see how a status quo bias could creep into their opinions even when armed conflict is truly the better option. There's good reason why State and Defense are two separate departments.

[Jake - but not the one]

"Except for all the others". Gotta love those fact free statements. They make the author feel so good!

Ok, clue me in. How does invading Iraq and unleashing civil war promote democracy in the Middle East? It's been, like, so successful to date. Hamas in Palestine, the Brothers in Egypt. Yup, democracy is on the rise.

Except we don't much like the outcome, do we?

Oh, and let me know when an actual functioning democracy comes to Iraq.

Jake

[M. Simon]

I blame Demographics.

It fits the facts. It has been known since biblical times.

Thus it will be totally ignored in favor of "they are going to hell due to bad intentions" rhetoric.

I love America.

[kim]

Sectarian power plays and a total lack of compromise sounds like life in these United States. I suppose you could describe Saddam as given to sectarian power plays and compromise wasn't among his sterling, nation unifying, characteristics.
==============================

[M. Simon]

How about another phantom menace?

Is Addiction Real?

[M. Simon]

Speaking of Pushing Reading and Meth:

The War On Unpatented Drugs.

[kim]

Psyche is essentally incomprehensible hence pitifully vain efforts like the various DSMs are created to create the illusion of knowledge.

We should only be incarcerating the physically dangerous. All others can be electronically manacled. Just think, my dear Simon, No More Dyad, If They Are Free Yad.
===================================

[kim]

"Created to create"? Well, it is so goddamned derivative.
==============================

[The Unbeliever]

Ok, clue me in. How does invading Iraq and unleashing civil war promote democracy in the Middle East? It's been, like, so successful to date. Hamas in Palestine, the Brothers in Egypt. Yup, democracy is on the rise.

In case you slept through it, the Iraqis held two elections already, and are now having active debates in their parliament. This is a marked improvement from their previous form of government, where one person got 100% of the vote because his opponents were murdered, and the debates were conducted with one party held at gunpoint.

As for democracy and Hamas in Palestine, I don't see the problem. In a stunning election, a people who largely embrace terrorism and violence against Israelis surprisingly elected... a group known for terrorism and violence against Israelis. That's the very definition of democracy in action: the will of the people decided their government. That election finally ripped the multiculturalist PC facade off our dealings with the Palestinians, and clarified the relationship between the Palestinians' leaders' beliefs and the beliefs of the people as a whole. I for one welcome the rare bit of honesty.

Except we don't much like the outcome, do we? Oh, and let me know when an actual functioning democracy comes to Iraq.

Will do. Oh wait, that's right, they already have a democracy installed and are actively working working out the kinks. You might not like the fact that it wasn't perfect "out of the box", but then maybe you also forgot that the US took two years to ratify our own Constitution, or that we didn't have the Bill of Rights for another 4 years after the original Constitution was written. Heck, our first form of democratic government, the Articles of Confederation, failed after 5 years and had to be scrapped in favor of the Constitution. So after a scant year of self-rule I'd say the Iraqis are ahead of the curve, and it is your own lack of historical perspective that's casting a pall of doom and gloom over the outcome.

[cathyf]

After all addiction is worse than pain in our culture. In fact we would prefer the sufferers of extreme pain suicide rather than become chronic drug users. That is because we are a kind hearted Christian nation.

You missed a whole 'nother motivation there. When the pain is severe, uncurable, permanent, and iatrogenic, the mere existence of the patient is an affront to every physician. Especially if the physician's action(s) which caused the injury were of dubious necessity.

I know someone who had severe adhesions from a hysterectomy, and was barely surviving with the help of oxycontin. Her doctor had the sheer audacity to sit behind his desk one day about 5 years later and say in that passive-aggressive, calm, reasonable slightly condescending tone that doctors adopt when they say outrageous things, "You know, you can't stay on the painkillers forever." Gee, suppose that instead of the adhesions, the thing that had gone wrong in her surgery is that she had been left a parapalegic -- do you think he would have said, "You can't stay in that wheelchair forever"? Suppose her thyroid had been destroyed as treatment for hyperthyroid -- would it have been, "You can't stay on thyroid replacement forever"?

One thing that always strikes me when doctors talk about "malpractice reform" is their craven indifference to the damage that they are capable of doing. Every permanently-pain-wracked doctor screwup is a rebuke to them, and they don't want to hear it. They want nothing more than for their victims to go away and kill themselves.

cathy :-)

[kim]

I once knew of a tiny woman who'd accidentally been given a massive overdose of radiation therapy to her abdomen and pelvis during the course of treatment for metastatic ovarian cancer. Ironically, the overdose cured her ovarian cancer but left her with a gut that was barely able to absorb, and which was permanently fixed in massively dense adhesions. The only thing that controlled her diarrhea was tincture of opium.
===================================

[Jake - but not the one]

Oh. My. Gawd.

I was going to keep my mouth shut today, after all I was totally OOC yesterday, but unbeliever just had to open pandora's box (like the symbolism? All the ills of the world coming from "lefties" like me)

Can anyone call what is happening in Iraq TODAY democracy? The elected body of which Bush is so proud is reported to have met for a whole HALF HOUR last week. A half hour while the country burns down around them.

If that's the Republican idea of how to bring about democracy, saints preserve us they ever get another chance.

Not to mention somebody saving Iraq, 'cause so far, we aren't getting the job done.

Not that I think it was ever our job

Ok, I'll go back to work. Just a little rant. Nothing to see here, move along now.

Jake.

[Barney Frank]

"The elected body of which Bush is so proud is reported to have met for a whole HALF HOUR last week.'

Would that ours would follow suit.

[boris]

while the country burns down around them

My brother recently returned from his 2nd tour in Iraq with the Army Corps of Engineers. Somehow he missed that part.

[maryrose]

Cathyf and kim:
the now have at the Cleveland Clinic an entire Pain Management division. Thank God for that as it has helped so many patients improve the quality of their lives. Hospice also relies on the ability to make those last months of life memorable and bearable for our loved ones.

[cathyf]

Hey, kim, at least your friend had metastatic ovarian cancer. Whenever people complain about managed care and denial of service, I have to wonder how many women there are out there living out their lives well because they don't have adhesions because they didn't have that surgery the insurance company said "No" to. Or that the doctor was too ashamed to even suggest because he knew the insurance company would balk. The "golden age" where insurance companies just paid every bill without question was also the age where it counted as "medical necessity" if a "medical" doctor had the "necessity" of making a payment on his jag...

cathy :-)

[kim]

So, Jake, would you prefer they not have democracy?
================================

[boris]

Shortly after returning from Iraq my brother in the ACOE did a 2 month tour on the gulf coast for Katrina cleanup. Now that he's back from that I'll see if he has an opinion on the reporting of Iraq vs the reporting of Katrina and New Orleans.

I suspect the murder, rape, snipers and stacks of tens of thousands of dead bodies and blame blame blame from that sorry MSM episode is a fair analogy to the Iraq coverage.

[The Unbeliever]

Dangit, Barney Frank beat me to the joke. Oh well, guess I have to play the serious guy for my response.

Can anyone call what is happening in Iraq TODAY democracy?

Sure; I can, and so can the 26 million Iraqis who know the difference between "voting for parliament" and "'voting' for Sadaam". Once again, just because Iraq doesn't look like our mature 217-yr-old republic, does not mean the government is a failure.

...while the country burns down around them.

Hyperbole aside--as boris noted the country is not burning down--your lack of historical perspective and/or knowledge is showing once again. Transitions into democracy are never frictionless; in 1787 Massachusettes was thrown into an official state of insurrection during Shays' Rebellion (alternate link here), which lasted a year and ultimately caused the US to scrap its current form of government. And even after the Constitution was in place, the Whiskey Rebellion (also here) challenged the new government with violence for three years.

Not to mention somebody saving Iraq, 'cause so far, we aren't getting the job done. Not that I think it was ever our job

The violence currently plauging Iraq is sectarian religious violence, Sunni vs. Shia, which is a problem with Islam not democracy. If you're postulating that someone needs to save Iraq from Islam, well, that's a whole other discussion which would cause some VERY interesting reactions if anyone in the MSM had the spine to raise it in debate. Certainly I'd agree that it's not our job to save Iraq from Islam, or to save Islam from itself; but democracy gives them the best chance to deal with those problems internally, as opposed to a never-ending series of dictators and totalitarian regimes which simply suppress such divisions using violence and torture.

[kim]

It is a continuing mystery to me why 'liberals' find so much support in their hearts for the forces of theocratic evil. How will they explain this when they no longer have Bush to kick around?
===============================

[shanta mcnair]

i think it is very hard out here for black men because once 1 black male does something wrong, other people begin to look at all other black men like they are killers. and we have more black males than anything in jail cells.

[sophy]

Welcome to our game world, my friend asks me to buy some Metin2 yang .