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March 31, 2006



Senate JC Hearing on Censure on CSPAN NOW.

Appalled Moderate

As the Times does not want me to know what Dr. Krugman thinks without paying a fee, it's hard for me to tell whether Krugman is mystified, or merely asking a rehetorical question meant to get Democratic supporters of Kennedy to prod the big man.

Actually, I find Krugman's point here intriguing. What does it mean to a Democracy where we routinely get the scut work done by folks who have no right to vote, no right to speak out and can be easily arrested and deported if they get a little too public. Really, no rights at all.

No solutions, but it would be nice if folks focused on that issue in the comments today.


What does it mean to a Democracy where we routinely get the scut work done by folks who have no right to vote, no right to speak out and can be easily arrested and deported if they get a little too public.

It is very troubling. And it gives the local polivce tremendous discretionary power sonce for many routing incidents the possible punishment (deportation) is wildly out of proportion to the crime. E.g., what is a girlfriend phones in a domestic violence case - does she really want the man deported, or would she rather just be beaten?

Or suppose the woman is illegal - maybe she will let the man beat/abuse her rather than risk exposure.

Naturally, that is on top of the workplace safety/harassment issues faced by folks who can't complain.

We are a long way from having even a half-baked plan here (and by "we" I mean the country and most subsectors, especially myself).

Harry Arthur

We've been down this road before. Kennedy knows that the inevitable result of virtually any program we devise will be general amnesty.

I don't know the answer either but it seems to me that we have to have something along the lines of a guest worker program which might lead to permanent residency while at the same time taking concrete action to control our borders. I also wonder at the percentage of hispanics who believe we should simply open the borders.

Otherwise, I find myself for the first time agreeing with at least some of Prof Krugman's thought process regarding a permanent "underclass" if you will, without a say in our democratic institutions. Where I probably strongly disagree is with what I believe is his implication that these non-citizens should vote.

Harry Arthur

Tom has touched on the problem now: anyone here illegally is subject to being abused either with low wages and no benefits in the work force or individual violence or mistreatment.

Creating a legal program of some sort is necessary to protect the workers as well as the country as a whole.

A large part of the current problem is that we are doing very poorly enforcing the law WRT employers and who they hire. I would argue that we should perhaps become the slightest bit less friendly to abusive employers as a start.

Clearly we're not going to deport those already here illegally. We have to find ways to identify and legalize them at some level. Then we need to be able to exercise control over those entering.

Personally, I don't buy the "they're doing work no one else would do" argument. Either we're treating these people properly or we aren't. As things currently stand we have to seek the middle ground. It seems to me that's where most Americans are on the subject.


I am putting tidbits from the Censure hearing on the Jeralyn post. Sen Hatch doing best job.

tim maguire

I think Krugman's comparison to Dubai would make more sense if citizenship were closed to these people. But, of course, it isn't. The opportunities for citizenship aren't being tightened. All the immigrants have to do is enter the country legally and then apply for it. Just like always.

How anti-democratic is it to deny voting rights to people who haven't expressed a desire for citizenship?


Its about the integrity of the polity.

Barney Frank

Krugman and other amnesty advocates ignore the results of incentives and they build a strawman with the assertion that the only way to reduce the number of illegals is through deportatiion.

If you incentivize illegal immigration through another amnesty program on top of Reagans what potential illegal would not make the perfectly reasonable assumption that if he gets here and stays here he too will eventually get amnesty someday?

One way to deal with the strawman of mass deportation is to make an effort to penalize employers who hire illegals. If illegals can't find work they deport themselves.
As for Americans not wanting to do the work illegals do, John Derbyshire pointed out that at the very time we're trying to deal with 10-20 million illegals a recent study showed that the actual unemployment rate of young poorly educated black men was reaching astronomical proportions. Who do illegals compete with for jobs, I wonder?

Now there's an opportunity for the GOP to drive a wedge between the Dems and the black vote. Too bad they're too stupid to take it.


Ah, B.F., do you note the incipient triangulation by a California Republican to get some of those young blacks back to work? Of course, that's a neighboring plantation to the one the Democrats like to keep their blacks on.

Harry Arthur

Barney, excellent. Though I'm generally very business-friendly, I, too, believe the solution lies with the employers. They're the ones we have to get very tough with. I'm not sure the situation would disappear but I would argue that it would certainly improve dramatically as you suggest.


The GOP can't use that wedge because they are, in essence, the party of Corporatism. The primary mission of today's GOP is to enable corporate profit, by whatever means necessary, without regard to the public interest. The result is where we are today - a country divorced from the concept of a common interest, losing all concept of social responsibility or public accountability.

This immigration issue is nothing but another cloud of political opportunity. It is however too wild and overgrown for either party to emerge with a coherent means of mining the opportunity. Republicans must serve two masters - their racist branch and their corporatist branch. Unfortunately this time, as we are seeing more and more frequently, these two unholy interests have conflicting interests. Democrats can't easily turn this into a populist issue because of the harm current policy does to America's expanding underclass and because, via Clinton, they also serve the greedy master of Free Trade.

Punishing the exploitative and greedy employers is an excellent first step, but unless we address the complicated web of poverty that has been unleashed by the corporate rape known as the Global Economy, nothing will change. It's quite a hopeless dilemma. Not only would we have to begin to work together as a cohesive society here in the USA, but we'd have to develop a sense of economic responsibility for our neighbors to the south. After a generation of being taught that greed is good, in fact the only good, there is zero chance of this problem being effectively addressed. Instead, partisans on both sides will attempt to reap the political whirlwind rather than even pretend they intend to solve the deep, complex problems.

The Unbeliever

Let the prisoners pick the fruits - the nuts are already in Washington.

Strange, the takeaway I got from the quote was that the nuts are already in California, on both sides of the political aisle.


Scofflaws. Laws to be scoffed at? These aren't nuanced Frenchmen here. They are poorly educated day laborers who have gumption. Give them a Sam Houston see what happens. Think they already have too many Panco Villas.

Gary Maxwell

unless we address the complicated web of poverty that has been unleashed by the corporate rape known as the Global Economy,

Karl Marx or Chairman Mao could not have said it any better.


"For now, at least, the immigration issue is mainly hurting the Republican Party, which is divided between those who want to expel immigrants and those who want to exploit them."

LOL, Republicans are going to win big in 2006 on this issue.

AB writes:

"The GOP can't use that wedge because they are, in essence, the party of Corporatism."

The Demo punditacracy has defined this as a "wedge" issue. IE, "wedge" is an issue that concerns the peons, not the upper class Kerry-esque elites.

You're kidding yourself if you think the Democratic party elites aren't corporatists. Heck, Ted Kennedy bragged how he got along with the Chamber of Commerce on this bill. (IE, their lobbyists wrote it, Kennedy gets the glory and the money.)

Opponents aren't "racists." The cowardice of the Democratic party to approach this issue in the interest of the American people is galling. But then, the big immigration business lobbies havve worked for years propagandizing that any dissent from their agenda is "racist." It's been very successful too, the Dem elites, especially the self-entitled "Progressives", have been cowed into silence or bumbling mental games of identity, like Krugman.

BTW, Feinstein's ag-labor is a canard. Traditionally that is an area of labor we do import. All the others now being "filled", really "replaced", are not traditional areas of illegal labor.

Rick Ballard

"Go after the employers."

Start within the faculty enclaves surrounding the universities. Follow the gardners, maids, pool people, rain gutter cleaners, window washers and unlicensed contractors. Arrest every scofflaw who hires them, fine them $100,000 for each violation and lock'em up for ten years.

But be sure and start around the university enclaves. For six months or a year.


I forgot, Gary Maxwell, that the human race is no longer allowed to innovate solutions to any economic problems. As long as there is a Republican around to yell Marxist! in a crowded theater, we must all be too terrified to think for ourselves. We'll all just sit here, watch our jobs get sent overseas and watch the Chinese buy up our children's future while poverty, war and disease consumes the third world. The only important thing is that we never give the Repubs an opening to throw their careless, empty insults around.

Marx could never have imagined today's global economy. Luckily, Maxwell, it's likely you're an irrelevant old fart with no investment in either our planet or our country's future. You can just continue to pound your fighting keyboard, and leave the solutions to the young ones who will need to inhabit this earth. Got a hint for you. They don't give a flying fig about your outdated insults. They need to deal with the world as it is TODAY, not in your Cold War stagnant memories.

Barney Frank


As a CA business owner in an industry that has been inundated by illegals (logging) I can assure you the mere thought of the decent chance of being fined will turn the tap off for hiring illegals. Most illegals are NOT hired by huge corps; they're hired by small businesses that cannot afford fines.

Gee I wonder why all of us racist, bloody fanged corporatists have such a hard time working cohesively with you friendly progressives. Bleh.

Well its lunch time. Guess I'll go barbecue my pool boy.


*Let the prisoners pick the fruits - the nuts are already in Washington.*

Ah yes, pound-me-in-the-pomegranate prison, not to be confused with Club Fed for politicians.

Gary Maxwell

Ah yes there are no Communist any more. Just anarchist and one worlders and higher thinkers, especially on and around Uinversity campuses.

And most Young people are fairly level headed if still quite inexpereinced and a little naive. But onew they get a job and some repsonsibilities they will forget the pap your kind tried to indoctrinate them with.

Here is one thing that you ivory tower types never get, 3/4 of the new jobs in this country are created by small entrepreurs. They aren't corporatists ( whatever that means) they are hard working folks trying to get ahead. And providing opportunities for others as they do.

If they are even doing business as a corporation it likely for one reason. Its a smart way to protect yourself ( an insurance policy ) from the personal injury lawyers who love to sue folks for ridiculous sums of money. And which side of the aisle do we usually find personal injury lawyers, oh yeah.


You're a fountain of cliches Maxwell. Your selfserving images of young people are about as realistic as your boogy-man fantasies about the dreaded Left. I'm guessing you don't get to see many live people down there in the nursing home, so rant away. None of this concerns you anyway. It's only as real as the pictures on your computer screen.

Gary Maxwell

Fountain calling sprinkler wet? Or Mr. Pot have you met Mr. Kettle previously?

Only see the young people in the dorms at the three colleges my children attend. Not that many, say hundreds. then there is the youth group and the soccer team of my youngest still at home.

But I know the buzzwords of the collectivists as I have heard it for years. Call it what you will, its still failed rhetoric of a ptitful economic system which I admit sounds idyllic is theory...

Start within the faculty enclaves surrounding the universities. Follow the gardners, maids, pool people, rain gutter cleaners, window washers and unlicensed contractors.
Rick, honey, you have some serious delusions about what professors earn.

cathy :-)


I lift my lamp was written when we didn't have elaborate social welfare programs in place nor multi language requirements for schooling and government forms. We lifted the lamp for those who wanted to assimilate and as Europe is finding out multiculturalism and open borders equals death to the host country.

Why do I suppose this story is related to illegal immigration and the effort to jujitsu out legal system to make the southwest part of Mexico again?
[quote]More than 25 percent of the new registration forms sent to the state since Jan. 1 have been returned to the counties, most because they lack the driver's license, state identification or Social Security numbers now required by federal law.


Problems with a new statewide voter registration system could keep tens of thousands of Californians from showing up on election rolls this June.

More than 25 percent of the new registration forms sent to the state since Jan. 1 have been returned to the counties, most because they lack the driver's license, state identification or Social Security numbers now required by federal law.

"It's part of the new validation requirements that are pretty stringent,'' said David Tom, election manager for San Mateo County. "Any information that doesn't match exactly gets rejected.'' [/quote]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/31/MNGC1I1ARQ1.DTL

I can assure you the mere thought of the decent chance of being fined will turn the tap off for hiring illegals.
It will also turn off the tap for hiring patriotic American citizens who just happen to be brown.
Most illegals are NOT hired by huge corps; they're hired by small businesses that cannot afford fines.
And who also can't afford to set up a police department to ferret out counterfeit work documents, etc. The only way they can afford to mitigate the risk is just not to hire any brown people.

cathy :-)


The proposed statute will set up an id system, Cathy and that should protect any employer. I do not know if the present system applies but under it there is an out for occasional short term employment (up to about $800 or $1,000 IIRC).

Appalled Moderate

Our nation was not built on restricting immigration, and we do not do it well. It's hard to resist the notion that "if they want to go through all that to get here, why not let them."

Problem is, there are many others who can't get here that would like to. Is the system we now have fair? Also, will the Mexican population assimilate in terms of values and langauge? Quebec does not work real well for the Canadians, and I am not sure that making parts of our country Spanish speaking is a good thing for national unity.

But, our system welfare depends on younger workers, something the native population is not interested in producing. And the work ethic displayed by many of the undocumented is considerable.

I don't think there are easy answers. I'd feel better about the current phenomenon if multi-cultural pc-ism, and the general fragmentation that technology is making more possible do not make the persistance of spanish-only enclaves in the US a likely result.


We already have an id system, and have since at least 1987. (Yes, in 1987 I participated in hiring someone who I knew was not legal until 6 weeks after her hire date, when she married a green card holder. She had all of the appropriate documentation, but the government screws up so her soc sec card which should have had a notation on it didn't have the notation.)

cathy :-)


1) seal the border

2) if and when you achieve 1) start worrying about what to do about illegals...I believe that most Americans would support amnesty if they saw that our borders were controlled.

I don't know why people have a problem with this simple solution.



No kidding and Mexico (Govt.) itself might you know be forced to reform too!

I saw all the signs on Instapundit link, "our land" - "indigenous", and I couldn't help but think what the crud do they think they are saying?

Obviously, the land in Baja at least is no different than much of SO Cal - if not prettier. So? It's our system of Government and the inherent opportunity it allows for (and provides) -- not the land -- they want. So dispense with the entitlement and start protesting your own failed government who encourages you to leave.

Barney Frank


I'm also a gun dealer on the side. there is a very easy national instant check system (NICS)in place for me to check the status of any prospective firearm purchaser. There is no reason the same thing could not be done for employment and citizenship.
Presto, no one is afraid to hire a 'brown' person.


TOTALLY off topic, but just noticed Danny Glover will be appearing with Cynthia McKinney at her press conference.

Perfect. Birds of a feather.

A month ago, my mother is a flight attendant, was on an international flight and Glover was on board.

They started to hit some pretty severe turbulence and the captain hit the everyone take a seat with you seatbelts including the attendants.

The FA in Glovers class (first or Biz, can't remember) was strapped in when Glover got up to use the bathroom. The FA reminded him that wasn't to get up at this time.

---OK, they are REQUIRED to do that. People ignore the rule and then they hit their head or something in the bathroom, then complain or worse, SUE, because they say - well, the FA didn't say anything to me OR stop me , and so on ---

Her gave her a dirty look and continued. The FA didn't stop him or prohibit him -- she just did her job and told him he was supposed to be seated.

When came out, he snarled at her (she is strapped in mind you) "I JUST HAD TO TAKE A F****** SH**, is that OK with you" and walked away.

The FA was upset and asked other FA's if she should report it or do something, consensus -- he is a jerk


I think AM has hit on a point--it is the extreme concentration of illegals in the southwest that compounds the problem--that and the radical MECHA.

If the illegals were more evenly distributed it would create less problems of assimilation and fewer reactions. The concentration of the Hmongs (legal) in Wisconsin with the combination of their large families and reluctance to work coupled with Wisconsin's generous welfare provisions that virtually bankrupted the nice mostly Lutheran communities which welcomed them at first with open arms.

Gary Maxwell

Capitalism is the worst economic system ever invented except for all the others. Winston Churchill.

Gary Maxwell

I live in Dallas so I have first row seat to the row under discussion. Let make sure you all understand that the probelm is our government and its willingness to enforce existing laws, period.

Do not fault the illegals. They came and brave many perils to get here. The wanted something better than they were staring at in Mexico ro central America. Most that I have met are extremely hard working industrious and family oriented. The kind of people that America was built upon. Most want desperately to learn English and wont converse in Spanish with me even if I speak Spanish to them first.

I dont think its realistic to send these folks back. How are we to replace 12 million hard working folks and not wreck the economy? But we can make it so that much fewer can sneak in. And if dont fairly, it will be supported by most of these folks. Just cuz they did not come to Ellis Island, does not mean they did not have the Statue in their minds eye. Ignor a few high school students. too young to know what they were doing or put up to mischief but some radical organizers. they do not represent the soul of the illegal immigrants that I have come to know.



I grew up in So-Cal and you don't have to tell me. In fact a man I worked with and have so much regard for, came here alone, saved all his money to send back home, was so eager to learn English, always asking how say things or what certain words meant-- shamed me one June (many, many years ago) he asked if I knew what day it was. Stupid answer, Tuesday or some such. He said "Today, today is Flag day"

I am not for shipping anyone back, but this type of protest is not winning the hearts and minds.

I think enforcement of the border - like yesterday - is secure and smart for us and will ultimately force Mexico to start caring a bit for their people.

Appalled Moderate

Gary Maxwell raises an interesting thought. The problem may not be immigrants who want to fit in. It may be an intellectual tendency here that thinks they shouldn't, since the melting pot is a hoax and the US founded on all varieties of evil.


We are a melting pot, we welcome all arab,.christian ,Jew ,Buddhist et al. The USA is founded on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Let's just do it legally and try to provide good jobs at fair wages for all Americans and those aspiring to be.We are not founded on evil.

Rick Ballard


Hegelian historicism in all its permutations (communism, fascism, socialism) requires an oppressed class in order to provide the pseudomoral (or pseudoChristian) underpinning that allows adherents to adopt an attitude of moral superiority over the 'oppressor' class. The concept of the melting pot is antithetical in the extreme to their rationale for existence.

It's an extraordinarily narcissistic (or egocentric) system of thought that elevates feelings and advocacy to the level of actual deeds. The inherent infantilism of the system make it very easy to understand but as difficult as a two year old to deal with. As the system in all of its various forms continues to be revealed as an illusion, it is to be expected that it's most ardent adherents will become increasingly enraged. Hence BDS, Bush as a 'symbol' must be destroyed in order to restore meaning to the lives of the various fakirs so heavily overinvested in the illusion.

It is a strange time in our history and watching historicism die ugly isn't proving to be much fun. Even less so in Europe, although that's no consolation.

Pity the poor immigrant trying to discern what he is supposed to become - a pawn for narcissists or an American. Fortunately, most immigrants seem to know that it is better to believe their eyes rather than the narcissist's lies.

Jake - but not the one

Maybe Molly has the right of it - again. :)

Immigration 101 for Beginners and Non-Texans.

It's been said already, but enforcement of existing laws would go a long way to curbing illegal immigration. But of course, that would actually take a lot of money out of the economy - one employer's pocket at a time. Just like in Texas 20+ years ago.

And it's not as sexy as a wall.


Gary Maxwell


That was an intelectually dishonest twisting of my strong defense of the illegals. I am as conservative or more so than the bulk of the psoters here. Stuff your holier than thou routine. Some here dont see illegals up close and personal since they live in parts of the country which have few or zero.

Worse is the reaction to the Mexican flags is quite understandable but needs to be resisted. I think it was done purposely by some very unscrupulous individuals who want strife cuz it might be to their advantage. Now I dont have direct evidence and it could just be stupid high school kids, but I doubt it.

Best advice is dont take the bait and allow some malcontents to make this a racial incident. Its not. Focus on the law and doing what it takes to enforce the law from this day forward. Guest worker or amnesty is coming at some point, as there is no realistic way around it. It aint GE and Microsoft employing illegals. Its the landscaping service owned by an ordinary Joe and the sole proprietor who owns three corner car washes. Neither of these guys is rich and no one is being opporessed. These are guys who would hire Americans if they could find some that would show up for work and act like they owe a days work for a days pay. That is the truth.

Barney Frank

I was kind of confused by AM's post.
I decided to be charitable and assume he was saying there is an intellectual tendency AMONG THE LA RAZA TYPES to discourage assimilation becuse of their goofy beliefs about the evils amerika is built on.


US founded on all varieties of evil.

Then move.



What do you do for a living?


Well said, Gary. Also, a wall is a senseless monument. The one between Israel and Palestine has a purpose for which it designed. Our wall would fail miserably.


It will also turn off the tap for hiring patriotic American citizens who just happen to be brown.

What's brown is this kind of race focused rhetoric. We are talking about illegal immigration. Nothing more.


I'm appalled at the moderation evidenced by the belief that the United States was founded on all varieties of evil. And the melting pot a hoax? Is that a desire or a delusion?

Gary Maxwell

BTW columnist Ruben Navarette in today Dallas Morining News ( he should also be in the San Diego Tribune ) notes that the large LA demostrations were the result of the coordination of several Spanish language radio station DJs. Incitement might be a better word. My suspicion here appears to begin to being of some substance. I am guessing you can find some labor unions and perhaps some very far leftist organizations stirring the pot here if you dig deep enough.

Ignor the race baiting, they want you to overreact to change the subject.

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