100% Certainty

ABC News follows up on the Duke lacrosse debacle:

According to defense attorneys, the prosecution said the woman picked out two of her alleged attackers with 100 percent certainty and one other attacker with 90 percent certainty while examining pictures.

However:

ABC NEWS EXCLUSIVE: Key Evidence Supports Alibi in Potential Rape Defense for One Indicted Duke Player

Reade Seligmann Was At Party, But Has An Alibi and Taxi Driver Witness and a Call to Girlfriend

Over the last few days, sources close to the defense have given ABC News an exclusive look at the evidence behind one player's alleged alibi — evidence that includes electronic records, photographs and witness statements. If that material is authentic, it could prove that it was practically impossible for him to rape, kidnap or assault the alleged victim.

Seligmann's argument is simple: He is innocent and he has an alibi. He attended the party that night, but documents, photos and witness testimony show that he wasn't there long enough or at the right time to attack the alleged victim.

...

By 12:24 a.m., a receipt reviewed by ABC indicates that Seligmann's ATM card was used at a nearby Wachovia bank. In a written statement to the defense also reviewed by ABC, a cabdriver confirms picking up Seligmann and a friend a block and a half from the party, and driving them to the bank. By 12:25 a.m., he was making a phone call to a girlfriend out of state.

What did Seligmann do after leaving the bank? The taxi driver remembers taking him to a drive-thru fast-food restaurant and then dropping him off at his dorm. Duke University records show that Seligmann's card was used to gain entry at 12:46 a.m.

In addition to bolstering Seligmann's alibi, the taxi driver's written testimony provided a rare glimpse of color in an otherwise darkened night.

"I remember those two guys starting enjoying their food inside my car, but I'm glad I end up with a nice tip and fare $25," the taxi driver said in his testimony.

The Ankle Biting Pundit wonders how the prosecutor will proceed with what looks like a bit of a problem here.  The DA's primary election is May 2.
ABC News has more on the photo timeline.

UPDATES:  ABC News interviews the cab driver; the NY Times reviews Seligmann's alibi; and the AP gets more from the cabbie:

Cabbie: Lacrosse Player Behaved Normally

 

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

 

Filed at 8:41 a.m. ET

DURHAM, N.C. (AP) -- A cab driver called to take a Duke University lacrosse player home from a team party says his passenger, now charged with raping an exotic dancer, seemed calm and even jovial that night. But a second passenger he picked up later was talking about a stripper, he said.

Moez Mostafa said the second passenger spoke about a stripper in a tone that made it ''look to me like somebody get hurt.''

 

...

In an interview on MSNBC, Mostafa said he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He said he remembered that person ''said in a loud voice, 'She just a stripper.'''

Asked whether the second fare was complaining about the stripper or whether it appeared something bad had happened to her, Mostafa initially said he didn't ''have any information about what was going on in the house.''

''When I look back, he look like he mad at the stripper. Or the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper. ... It look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm, ... I have no idea.''

Interesting.  Mr. Seligmann's dorm card was used at 12:46.  The police showed up to an empty house where the party had ocurred at 12:55.  The cab driver is cutting it close here, but I presume the dorms and the off-campus housing don't need to be far apart.

STILL MORE:  From the Ankle Biting Pundit:

First, the caveat:

...a person whom I'd known for a few years and been in contact with previously (and who knows my "real-life" identity) on matters unrelated to this case wrote me with some information not reported in the press.
 
In fairness, this person is sympathetic to, and has connections with, some of the Duke Lacrosse players (which he/she freely admitted to me). The person also freely admitted that he/she had received this information on a "second-hand" basis and was only relating to me what he/she had been told.

However, with the above disclosure, and because I know the person to be "straight-up" from other dealings with him/her, I'm going to pass along the information the source shared with me.

And, the news/rumor:

Race may be playing a factor - but not how you think. The strippers were hired over the phone, and the person that called asked for white strippers. However, as everyone knows by know, neither of the strippers were white. When the strippers did come over they were clearly impaired - so much so that the alleged victim passed out on the back porch, and some of the players had to help her to the car because she couldn't walk. Further, the strippers did not even "perform" their show.

FWIW - my own Jersey connections (we are alluding to the high school/college gossip mill here) said the same thing - the LAX players were expecting a white stripper, asked the two women in question to leave, there was a dispute about money, performance, etc., and here we are.

Now, a rumor is not true just becasue a lot of folks hear it.  But I'm just sayin'.

Comments

[MayBee]

It was reported yesterday (i believe by Jeffrey Toobin, I saw it on CNN) that investigators did not interview these guys before indicting them. Did not even ask them if they were there, what they were doing, etc. That seems a bit of a problem, to me.

[Sue]

Something on Greta tonight caught my attention. The attorney for the captain of the Lacrosse team and the owner/renter of the house where the alleged rape occurred said that the 1st dancer arrived at approximately 11:00 PM and the alleged rape victim was late, not getting there until about 11:30 PM. The pictures don't start until around midnight, IIRC. One the regulars on Greta, Bernie, made the point about a rape case he had defended years ago. The alleged rape victim in that case claimed she was raped at 5:00 PM. The alleged raper was caught on store camera at 5:00 PM, at a store across town. Bernie took the tape to the DA and the victim decided it was actually 3:00 PM not 5:00 PM. Bernie thinks the defense attorneys should have kept the information about their client silent until the alleged victim had locked in her testimony as to the timeline. I see a slight problem with the earlier time of 11:30 by the attorney for the captain of the Lacrosse team.

[clarice]

I think defense counsel is right in this case. If they do not speak out know the DA will so poison the well, their clients won't have a chance. BTW ABC looked under magnification at the accuser's watch and the times on the photos match the time on her watch.

[clarice]

*now , not know****

[Sue]

Clarice,

I don't think there is a dispute on the times depicted on the pictures. What I'm saying is that the attorney for the owner/renter of the house is saying that the 1st stripper arrived, alone, at 11:00 PM and the 2nd stripper, the alleged victim, arrived about 30 minutes late, at approximately 11:30 PM. That means there is a 30 minute time frame where pictures are not taken and the 1st pictures you see of her at approximately midnight are the ones where she shows bruises to her legs and knees. Just sayin'...there is a discrepancy as to when she actually arrived, it would seem.

[ed]

Hmmmm.

My two cents - I would have have shut the "program" down after reading Tom Wolfe's "I Am Charlotte Simmons". And in my current mode (Knock their teeth out, then kick 'em in the stomach for mumbling) I would still shut it down - the University of San Francisco did this with their basketball program, as I recall. Yes, there are due process issues here, so that may be one of many reasons I am not in charge of Duke. But after I shut the program down, the kids who tried to transfer out would (I'll wager) only be able to be accepted elsewhere after demonstrating a bit more cooperation with the authorities.

Well TM? Still think that?

[clarice]

I understand what you are saying Sue, but do you mean to suggest that after being raped, the accused continued her performance rather than leaving. And her partner first said she had no knowledge that the accused was raped. Now (and her lawyer admits the statement is inconsistent with her first statement)the 2d dancer says she knew the accused was raped but didn't see that.

Coloe me sceptical.

[Mescalero]

It seems that justice is the last thing on the mind of the Stalino-Fascist district attorney. People please understand that there is no difference between this insignificant district attorney and Stalin's chief show trial prosecutor Andre Vyshinsky! This guy couldn't get a real job if he tried, so he goes the racist rape route! We've seen this behavior before with Harlem's Himmler Al Sharpton!

[Rick Ballard]

The next defense move may be a promise of a malicious prosecution suit with a nice fat number on it. Let the tax payers mull over what the DA may be putting at risk prior to the election. If the phone calls mentioned, which occured during the 20 minute window where no pictures were taken, had some separation or were of any duration and they were made by the accuser then I would hope that sanctions are requested at the first hearing - if that is possible.

[Sapper]

I think that if the case is as flimsy as it seems, it was a real travesty that the school rushed to political-correctness and shut down the team's season and sent the coach packing. The program will likely not be able to recover from this for a long time.

I have to wonder aloud two things about this racially charged topic:

1. Would the school have reacted this way if it were the Duke Basketball team?

2. Not that I condone whatever was said in the allegedly disgusting racially charged email but I think one must consider that it was sent AFTER the bogus allegations, after the race-baiters trekked down to NC to lambaste the white LAX players publicly and practically call them all racist violent thugs.

I think that the "black community" seem to want their cake and eat it too when it comes to racial allegations -- I can't count how many times I've heard of phoney hate crimes reported -- you can call a bunch of "white boys" racist thugs with no real evidence, but when the white boys are trashed and ruined, they better watch their politically correct p's and q's. Sounds like a bit of a double standard to me.

[JJ]

There are some important implications for the whole prey vs predator argument here.

Leave all the red herrings aside (lacrosse thugs, rich kids, strippers trying to make an honest living, race crime, etc.), predators should not shove a victim out of court house door by intimidation.

But who, pray tell, is the prey and who is the predator in this case? If the girl was abused, then she deserves her anonymity as do all abuse victims.

However, if the players are innocent, while they do have their constitutional protections presently, they could be considered the prey. In which case, they have already been punished by the political correctness machine -- even before the indictments.

And I don't think it's too much of a stretch to compare Libby and CIA with this case. If just the appearance of the guilt -- and more importantly the processes of the legal machine -- can do as much damage as the conviction, then it may be worth the risk to tangle someone up in an accusation.

No indictments for outting Wilson/Plame have been made against Libby. Just the alleged perjury based on evidence that may not stand up well in court.

Libby could have used better judgment and so could the lacrosse team for throwing what is admittedly a stupid festival. But if there is sneakiness in the origination of the charges, then who is going to right the wrong?

That no one reads the corrections in the newspapers is as old as the sun. In the meantime, the people at the CIA may be laughing up their sleeves, saying we got him, we put one over on them.

To which, as Chairman of the Obvious, I still contend that the minute Wilson was anonymously sourced, every journalist worth his or her salt, found out pretty quickly that it was Joe Wilson that was the source and that he and his wife's political leanings and her position at the CIA were also quickly taken into account and understood.

Which would make it transparent that the whole Libby case has been a charade from the beginning.

To conclude: a predator shouldn't be allowed to push prey into the courthouse either.

And if that's so, then there has been serious misuse of the legal system.

...hey, I'm gonna just trying to keep a positive outlook. Negativity is bad for the brain...

[clarice]

If Seligmann's alibi does hold up and when the accuser said she was 100% certain when she made both identifications, certainly Seligmann must be dismissed from the case, but it so substantially weakens the case against the second accused as to fatally affect it as well. At least in the absence of any solid forensic evidence to the contrary.

[JJ]

PS: That was just a fun way of saying that the prosecution may not be serving anyone too well in either case.

[windansea]

wow a "J" poster who makes sense!

eureka

[larwyn]

Consider this when rushing to judgement on the kind of kids these boys are.
Duke is the campus culture that supposedly was the inspiration for Wolfe's "I Am Charlott Simmons".
If "Girls Gone Wild"ers are rampant on campus and these guys were BMOC and had access to the GGWers - why would they pitch in to hire "strippers". It sort of says to me they are "dorks" (badly in need of jargon update) that they would "pay for the cow" so to speak.
Secondly, from what I've read they were serious LAX players.
Hope you've read or will read the
email I received from my grandson, a soph. who plays on the intermural Rugby team at an Ivy. This is from Easter Sunday evening without all the details we have now.
It's posted on the "Tell Me About" thread April 16th at 10:00 pm.
It just sickens me that posters of the entire team are on the web and put up all around the town. All their personal info and their family information.
Does anyone think that any of these boys are hitting the books for finals, I doubt many are still on the campus.
This is not the way our Justice system should run.
I cannot imagine that if races were reversed, that the PC'D LSM would be covering it as it has.
This world is pretty upside down when Yale admits the Taliban Spokesman who use rape to dishonor families. And if it were not for the WSJ's John Fund we would never have heard about it.
PREY? Today WHITE MEN especially if they are from red states and not gay - they are the easiest of prey right now.

[topsecretk9]

I heard the NYC rape allegation and even the Kobe Bryant allegation thrown in on the argument...the one I HAVEN'T HEARD is .... is William Kennedy Smith.

How come rich WHITE sons of democrats get to call their accusers sluts?

[larwyn]

ts
Kennedys are off limits.

Only Dems are lauded for being sexual predators even when they drown women. John did a real fine job in that area - invented his own exclusive "Mile High Club" -
wonder if we'll find out if Billy
broke his record??

Maybe if Hill loses nomination for 08 run, or just loses in 08 she'll lash out. We can hope.

One is behind bars tho, Skakel(sic).

I just hope all the parents of attractive atlectic manly sons are sitting them down for some serious talk. It should begin with

Avoid any female in Women's Studies and go on from there

[larwyn]

***athletic***
Very weak mind to fingertips connection.

[topsecretk9]

One is behind bars tho, Skakel(sic).

Thank you Larwyn, and the Kennedy's are all still working on the appeal, because he is of course innocent ... maybe he is...but the Democrats always resort to Sluts and Nuts is at all possible.

So when those drive-by's who want to accuse JOMer's of racism and the such ... ammend or defend.

[topsecretk9]

Avoid any female in Women's Studies and go on from there

Excellent advice, actually... a sad exercise can be found here here...after reading through I fond the problem with the "****" disturber

Lisa's second response has this

...From the start, my parents encouraged me and my sister to do whatever we wanted

that's good, but apparently they put no limits on that. Be offended at every good deed, be a jerk whenever possible and find hidden evil intentions in the innocuous, innocent or even kind! aka..future employers step W A Y back.

[topsecretk9]

tag check...larwyn...you have company.

[boris]

Think you missed one

[Other Tom]

The Abrams report last night had the photos. The ones they displayed were not too clear, but Abrams described them in detail as though he were able to see them more clearly than they came across on TV. In one, you see the complainant with what he described as a demure smile on her face (which was masked out for TV), taken at (as I recall) 12:24--strongly suggesting that whatever happened to her that night had not yet occurred, and Seligmann was gone by that time. Finnerty--who says he wasn't there--doesn't appear in any of the photos. Also, a guy on O'Reilly, a black ex-cop, says he interviewed a number of sources in the police dept., and that these sources were not nearly as persuaded of the complainant's credibility as the DA is. They told him that they interviewed witnesses (and have their witness statements) saying that they had seen the complainant before she went to the house and that she was wasted. The way this thing is going, it seems we may have a prosecutor under political pressure willing to destroy the lives of at least two young men and their families before he had conducted anything like a thorough investigation. Why, exactly, was it so important that he get the indictments two days ago, instead of waiting until he had some of these facts in hand?

[Patton]

Given that an allegation can shut down the entire season, someone could make good money from the opposing team/gambling to make false allegations.

[Seven Machos]

Those of you who may remember me from Plame days of yore know that I am NOT a leftist, and I disdain all departments in colleges ending in "Studies." Reading these comments, however, I think people here are perhaps a little too quick to support the defendants based on the facts on the ground.

I speculate that something brutal happened that night. At BEST, I suspect these privileged kids hurled racial epitaphs and treated this woman physically violently. The fact that these decent-looking, obviously rich kids hired a $400 stripper suggests premeditated sexual objectification on their part. Further, the fact that one of the defendants faced criminal proceedings for allegedly beating up a gay man in Georgetown suggests a propensity for violence. Finally, for all the politics the proscutor is being charged with, the prosecution simply cannot try its case in public the way the defense can. You don't hear about the prosecution's evidence because the prosecution cannot present it outside the confines of court proceedings.

Was there a rape? I doubt it. But I don't feel sorry for the defendants. The fact is, they probably degraded this woman horrendously for her to react the way she did. They have probably degraded and pushed around a lot of people. For all that the woman may be lying about, these young men are lying, too, when they say NOTHING happened.

[boris]

Was there a rape? I doubt it. But I don't feel sorry for the defendants.

Analyzing a travesty in the making is not the same as "feeling sorry" for the defendants.

The fact is, they probably degraded this woman horrendously for her to react the way she did.

Feeling sorry for the victim is fine until it starts creating new victims.

[boris]

I speculate that something brutal happened that night

Not to pick on one post, as said before, an internet discussion can only be based on infomation available online.

Speculation is ok but it's not online information. It certainly does not rebut reasonable analysis of that information, quality concerns stipulated. In this case it is not true that the only information available comes straight from the defense.

[Seven Machos]

Boris -- Let's stipulate that I am right, that these men are arrogant jerks who invited a woman over (whom they knew to be poor, whom they knew to be African-American, whom they knew to be from a lower socioeconomic strata); that they pushed her around, grabbed at her; they they called her names, that they cut her, that they were vile and vulgar, that they created a situation in which she felt unsafe and somehwat subhuman.

Let's say that occurred. Is it a travesty?

I think everyone needs to let this play out a little bit before deciding what happened. I would further speculate that, when the defense attorneys' press offensive dies down, these kids will tell the entire story, and it will all make some sense.

[Seven Machos]

If you don't know the facts but have come to a conclusion, as you obviously have done, Boris, then you are speculating.

[Florence Schmieg]

I'll join in with my cable-TV-derived knowledge. Apparently the police are upset that the DA forged ahead and did not give them sufficient time to do a thorough investigation. He believes the accuser most likely because the hospital that examined her strongly supports the rape as having occured. So, something happened but what and by whom? I have another problem with this DA. He was giving press conferences where he was describing how the rape could have occured "from behind" and if the boys were wearing long sleeves then when she scratched at them there would not be DNA on her broken fingernails. Are DAs supposed to do that? Present arguments during a press conference?

[Sue]

Seven,

I think everyone needs to let this play out a little bit before deciding what happened.

As you did? Good grief, you have invented something out of whole cloth as to what could have happened, then tell everyone to let this play out before deciding? Maybe I'm missing something, but you, not others, are the one that is deciding what happened, and doing so with not a shred of evidence to back it up.

Florence,

re DAs supposed to do that? Present arguments during a press conference?

You're kidding...right? ::grin::

[Gary Maxwell]

You don't hear about the prosecution's evidence because the prosecution cannot present it outside the confines of court proceedings.

With no disrespect intended, you have got to be joking me here. This marionette of a DA has granted 70 some interviews on this case and the cherry on top was a public forum at a predominantly black college in Durham where any member of the audience was allowed to stand up and demagog the issue as much as outrageously as they wished. And the whole thing was dignified by the DA sitting in the middle of it like nothing extraordinary was happening. It reminded me of the old west scences just beofre the crowd got the rope and administered the sentence without even a trial. All prior to even having any indictment.

Can you say rush to judgement, I knew you could.

[Sue]

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/04/100_certainty.html#comment-16353229>Clarice,

Absolutely not. I am suggesting nothing other than what Bernie said on Greta last night. Once he presented his evidence to the DA that his client was across town, on store video tape, the accuser changed the timeline. I am merely pointing out that there is 30 minutes where she is there and no pictures, and the 1st ones show bruises, etc. If she decides to say it happened earlier, there is nothing to prove it didn't.

[Sue]

Oh shoot...I've joined the Larwyn Club. ::grin:: At least I'm in good company.

[Seven Machos]

That's a good point, Sue. I am speculating in the woman's favor because I have seen so much speculation against her in previous postings. One difference is, I am speculating as to facts and events. Most of the speculation here has been as to ultimate conclusions. It's a distinction without a difference, though; speculation is speculation.

I would recall two actual facts here, though:

1. One of the defendants was recently charged with pummeling a man for being gay in Georgetown.

2. Duke had told the lacrosse coach to "get his team under control" previously, which suggests a series of criminal, quasi-criminal, and probably bullying actions by this group of men.

[boris]

as you obviously have done, Boris, then you are speculating

Obviously ? Anyway, nothing wrong with speculation, the distinction is between reasonable analysis of online information vs imagining what might have happened that we don't know about.

Both are fine it's just that the second does not rebut or legitimately impugn the first.

[Sue]

Seven,

Neither of which proves guilt here. I don't care that you are speculating, we all are. Just don't slap our wrists because some speculations don't match your's.

[Gary Maxwell]

But I don't feel sorry for the defendants. The fact is, they probably degraded this woman horrendously for her to react the way she did. They have probably degraded and pushed around a lot of people.

Seven read your own words here. Notice that you used the word "probably" twice. That is a word of statistics meaning more likely than not.

So you yourself have come to a conclusion. Exactly what you are accusing us of. Shame on you. And at least our are based on known facts, yours are based on your feelings.

And if both boys were Not there, how exactly did they degrade anyone.

BTW there is a story up about two of team members dad, who is a NYC fireman involved in the rescue effort of 911. Last time I checked, firemen were of modest means. Does not realy fit the media stereotype does it? Maybe why you dont feel sorry for the innocent until proven guilty? The media has sold you a bushel of BS again.

[Seven Machos]

Boris -- I love you, man. You have to know that. But isn't is a little unfair to characterize "your" speculation as "reasonable analysis of online information" and mine as "imagining what might have happened that we don't know about"?

Just to be clear: I think the woman is embellishing. I doubt she was raped.

Again, though, suppose I am right. I think there is a very intesting reversal at play. We've all heard it said that a woman in a short skirt who walks into a crowd of hardcore felons is "asking for it." Similarly, these Duke players set themselves up. They set up the racially charged atmosphere. They hurled the insults. They pushed and grabbed. They were asking for it just as much as the woman in the skirt.

Now, of course, if there was no rape, there should be no trial and no conviction, just as a trashily-dressed woman should not suffer rape for her fashion decisions. But both she and the lacrosse players could avoid all potential problems by making better decisions.

[Cecil Turner]

. . . the cherry on top was a public forum at a predominantly black college in Durham where any member of the audience was allowed to stand up and demagog the issue as much as outrageously as they wished.

Obviously you missed Reverand Al Sharpton's video appearance on O'Reilly, or you'd know about the "racial atmosphere":

There's a lot of racism that's in the air. Having said that, I commend a lot of the Black and Whites, who stood vigil and come together in that community to stand up for this girl.

Aaargh, we're doomed! It's in the very air we breathe. (And he's a Reverand . . . so you know he's gotta be tellin' it like it is!)

[Appalled Moderate]

My guess. Somebody raped the woman, but it might not be the defendents and it may not even have happened at the party. She was probably pretty intoxicated. And the Duke grads were probably pretty disgusting, demanding things, and somebody easily could have gone towards sexual assault.

I look forward to the Law and Order episode that's going to be based on this.

[Seven Machos]

Sue, you are tougher than that. By presenting an alternative point of view, I am not slapping your wrist.

[Gary Maxwell]

Mr. Tawana Brawley who lost a civil suit for defamation of court officer in the case. No one does race baiting like Big Al.

[cathyf]

As for those who are criticising the Duke administration for eliminating the lacrosse program, I think you are wrong. Whether or not the rape occurred is irrelevant -- eliminating the program was punishment for the email, for the drunken party with strippers, for all the things that the team did in the recent past to get themselves on warning.

Sports are extracurricular activities, and they are a privilege. College students have no more right to play lacrosse on a school-sponsored team than they have a right to always have their favorite food available in the school dining hall.

cathy :-)

[Gary Maxwell]

I think the woman is embellishing. I doubt she was raped.

But these boys, one who can prove he left the party within minutes of this girl arriving and another who is not in a single photo and says he was never there, deserve what is happening to them?

I hope nothing even close ever happens to you or your loved ones Seven.

[Seven Machos]

Appalled Moderate has it right. If in teh same night you got raped by Person X and treated like a subhuman by a bunch of vile, disgusting mostly rich guys, maybe you would decide to go ahead and blame the mostly rich guys for everything. At the end of the civil suit rainbow (at which do NOT need "beyond a reasonable doubt") is a pot of gold.

Would this be a vile act by this woman. Yes. Disgusting. Far more disgusting than what the mostly rich guys did to her. Yes.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

' Let's stipulate that I am right'

Let's not, and see how your argument works then.

[boris]

isn't is a little unfair to characterize "your" speculation as "reasonable analysis

There's a difference between analyzing the alibi information effect on the credibility of the victim and claiming that something brutal must have happened to her for her to react the way she did.

If you see those as equivalent speculation then we have a different understanding of the word "equivalent".

[Seven Machos]

Gary: If the lacrosse players did commit other crimes, should they be punished? What if crimes happened, but the players are not being forthright, and are suppressing those other crimes? This woman is going for broke by lying. Isn't there a reasonable possibility that the players are going for broke by lying as well?

[Seven Machos]

Patrick: it's true. My argument fails if I am wrong. Would you say that is also a weakness of your arguments, whatever they may be?

[Seven Machos]

Boris -- all of the alibi information could be true and this woman still could have faced physical and verbal abuse/intimidation. There were lots of guys there.

[Gary Maxwell]

What if the sky turns polka dot? You have some serious issues to deal with, not the least of which is a class envy that would make Karl Marx blush.

Factor this into your reality challenged thesis. Suing a single mom of 2 who works as a stripper aint likely to get you anything other than a pile of legal bills and a judgement that you can wipe your ass with. Suing the State of NC runs you straight into Sovereign Immunity type defenses not to mention unlimited legal time on the other side which would quadruple the legal bills of the suit against the stripper.

Aint no pot of gold. And where is the pot where any of these guys can go to get their reputation back?

[Seven Machos]

From anklebitingpundits:

"But the one thing that experience brought home to me was just how carefully you must act while a prosecutor. My biggest fear wasn't screwing up and letting a really bad guy walk free (although that did cause many sleepless nights), but rather, putting the wrong person in jail."

This is all true. It is better to let the entire group of louts that is Duke lacrosse team go free than to out one guilty lout in jail.

However, and this is what I have been trying to suggest here: many here and everywhere seem to want to paint of picture of complete innocence on the part of the team and of Tawana Brawley Redux by the accuser. That's not fair, either. Your intuition about what you do know of the circumstances and what you do of the facts and what you do know of human nature should suggest to you that the Duke players did something pretty atrocious that night. That's why they are being framed now.

[Gary Maxwell]

I am appalled at the Taliban nature of your punishment for what you assume is verbal abuse. Why dont you get a rope?

[boris]

Not the point SM ...

It's is reasonable to question her credibility based on information available online.

It is reasonable to speculate what happened to her based on information available online.

My point ... the second does not rebut the first.

[CS]

Sapper, or anyone else, got a link as to when the McFadyen email message was sent? Thanks.

[Appalled Moderate]

Looks like real life is writing us a Tom Wolfe novel. Oh dear.

[abe]

It is a wrap. She idenfied 3 players. 2 can show they were elsewhere while she claimed the attack took place. No DA can overcome what Nifong has ahead. He is wasting time. This is bigoted crap.

[Seven Machos]

Gary: The person who is going to sue is the ACCUSER. The standard of proof in a civil case is lower than it is for a criminal case. The accuser can sue Duke University and every player who was at the party. If she gets a sympathetic local jury, she has a very good chance of winning, or settling in the millions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=854285

[Appalled Moderate]

Boris:

Fair. Perfect alibis that are actually false is more the stuff of fiction than actual police work. I think SM is right to point out, though, that we don't really know.

(You know, I'm liking this thread because where one falls on politics does not dictate what one thinks of the issues involved.)

[Seven Machos]

Gary -- What punishment have I suggested?

[Hit The Bid]

Good Morning Vietnam!

I'm sure the "regulars" have missed my wonderful presence...and I'm sure you are all glad to have me back.

For the record, I don't work for the govt, am not a Kennedy, and am an articulate, tolerant progressive that fits none of your silly, silly strawmen liberal stereotypes.

Having said that. I would like to say good job to Mr. Seven Machos for keeping the mad speculators in check.

Where is the hatred for the media circus loving defense attoreys out whoring "facts" about their clients' innocence?

This is a media circus, and all the freaks are drawn in---all of them--and yes sharpton and the Reverend are freaks just like Hannity, O'Reilly, Abrams and others are as well. HEll! This post is a circus, anyone deny that?

[Gary Maxwell]

Seven thanks for providing a very strong motive to lie for a single mom. So exactly where is would ANY sympathy for this mess be appropriate?

[Other Tom]

It is entirely possible that this woman endured physical and sexual abuse, but that it happened elsewhere, after she left the Duke house (or even before she went there). Regardless, the prosecutor has behaved unethically by declaring publicly--and repeatedly--that he was convinced that the crime had occurred, long before the defendants had had a chance to adduce exculpatory evidence. As for the incident involving Finnerty in D.C., it appears that the records disclose that words were exchanged between his group and a group including the allegedly gay man, resulting in a fistfight which Finnerty won. This happened at 2:30 a.m. outside a bar in Georgetown. If that shows a "propensity to violence," then the record of the complainant here shows a propensity to violate the law--consistent with bringing false charges against these two young men. Finally, when college boys seek to be entertained by strippers, it is quite likely that the entertainment will be provided by persons of a lower socioeconomic status. It's been going on at least since I was that age, and that's a long time indeed. But it's not a reason to be sneeringly contemptuous of these "wealthy" children of "privilege," whose wealth and privilege have certainly not required them to forfeit their right to fair treatment at the hands of the law.

[Sue]

Seven,

Offer your alternative view and argue it to death. But don't pretend your view has more basis in fact than say, Boris' does.

[Hit The Bid]

But, when everyone is mistreated isn't that in a perverse way, justice?

[Gary Maxwell]

Well Seven you have HTB in your corner. Hows that feel?

[Hit The Bid]

Oh Gary! Where's the love?

[Hit The Bid]

Gary from earlier:
"But these boys, one who can prove he left the party within minutes of this girl arriving and another who is not in a single photo and says he was never there, deserve what is happening to them?"

Answer=maybe

[Seven Machos]

It feels pretty bad, Gary. I'm not going to lie to you. I feel kind of dirty, like I just cast the deciding vote in favor of Hillary Clinton in 2008 or something.

But, I stand my ground, and ny ground is simply this: I think these lacrosse players were arrogant jerks who treated a poor, African-Amerian woman like crap, and they picked the wrong poor, African-Amerian woman to treat like crap. Their crimes, while not the crimes that they are charged with, were crimes nonetheless. False imprisonment. Battery. Assault. (Probably more; I'm no prosecutor.) They shouldn't be accused, tried, or imprisoned for any crimes they did not commit. But it's ridiculous to call these kids pure as the driven snow. In a real sense, they made their beds. They made very poor decisions. And I want the little group of people who read Tom's blog to come to terms with that. Finally, I believe in the American criminal justice system and I think things will work out justly in the end.

I would also say to Sue that I don't think my conjecture is any more plausible than anyone Boris's. But it's not worse, either.

[Gary Maxwell]

OK then we can see how far out on the scale you lie. Think a buch of rich whilte boys deserves anything that has happened here I guess too? "Driving while black" has a new parellel, its "being a white male in Durham NC".

[Gary Maxwell]

Where in the statues is it a crime for being an "ARROGANT JERK"?

(I want to charge HTB so please get back to me.)

[Gary Maxwell]

False imprisonment. Battery. Assault.

Funny the DA did not charge any of these things? So where did you get this?

My roommate a very long time ago was Sheriff Deputy. He used to tell me about cases that they had to investigate where crimes were alleged but the investigation conclusion was "failure to pay."

[Hit The Bid]

Ok gary...now you're just plain flirting with Seven.

Seven has a point, I would make it as strongly, but I do believe that everyone involved in this alleged crime is on an equal moral footing. SOme think that footing is "low". I actually don't, many single mom's strip for money and its good money--as Liberal I would like to make sure she still gets health coverage for her and her kids (and also subsidized tuition of course).

Many many groups of men hire strippers for events. It does sound like they hired her and at the very least we being "dicks" about it. Degrading her, and calling her racial names etc (I know its true because I heard it somewhere).

[Gary Maxwell]

If you werent there Seven explain to me what crime you committed and how you are not simply "innocent."

[Sue]

Seven,

Last comment from me on your first comment. Me either. That wasn't the point as you are well aware.

Enjoy...

[Hit The Bid]

"Where in the statues is it a crime for being an "ARROGANT JERK"

-I don't know, but maybe start with the Bush Admin!

WOw...now you're really getting flirtatious Gary! Behave...I'm married

[Dan]

Seems to me HTB and SM are acting out that other Tom Wolfe novel, Bonfire of the Vanities, as they gleefully look forward to the punishment of the rich and privledged. Doesn't matter if they actually did what they are accused of, we shouldn't feel sorry for them because, well because they are rich and privleged.

[TM]

Similarly, these Duke players set themselves up. They set up the racially charged atmosphere.

Well, here is an odd, unreported (as best I know) wrinkle fresh from the NJ high school/college rumor mill - the Duke LAX guys had arranged with some service to have a white stripper sent over (and took for granted a brawny bouncer would accompany her).

When the two women in question showed up, they were advised that they should hit the road. After a period of confusion, it was agreed that they would perform and get paid.

What that adds I am not sure, but the evening did get off to a bad start.

As to my intitial post about shutting down the team - well, yes, I still think so. As Cathyf noted, they were under the microscope and out of control before this happened (whatever "this" is).

And does anyone disagree with the point made by Clarice, that the DA can hardly ask for a do-over on one of his "100% certain" photo IDs, which means that the accuser's other IDs are now well into the "reasonable doubt" category as well?

Well. FWIW, if folks could hold off playing "Hit The Fool" until he actually makes a sensible contribution, that might create a better set of invcentives for him to do so. But whatever.

[Seven Machos]

I invoke Godwin's Law regarding Hit the Bid.

But, anyway: the kids didn't rape the woman. The prosecutor is playing fast and loose. I agree the likelihood is high for both. (Like you all, I am SPECULATING.) I think the probability is high that the players committed some lesser crimes. In a perfect world, they would be tried for them and found guilty, and this would go a long way toward curing their arrogant-jerk tendencies.

Why can't anyone here see that rushing off to defend the players with no facts is as bad as rushing off to defend Tawana Brawley without the facts? So many people just play their parts in a continuous morality play, it seems.

[Seven Machos]

TM's rumor mill information makes everything fit together.

[Seven Machos]

Also, I don't gleefully look forward to the punishment of the rich and powerful. I think it's fair to say that I am coming at this from a completely different angle than Hit the Bid.

[Hit The Bid]

"Why can't anyone here see that rushing off to defend the players with no facts is as bad as rushing off to defend Tawana Brawley without the facts? So many people just play their parts in a continuous morality play, it seems."

Amen Seven Nachos...I don't see how anyone could disagree with that post. I agree completely and any of your efforts to imply that I think that these rich kids need to be persecuted is balderdash.

Many of you on this post just object to the fact that we are saying "hey wait a minute"...whats with the blind rush to indict the victim and exonorate the defendants?

[AB]

How bizarre...This site, whose only previous interest in all of the cataclysms of our current times has been Obsessive Plamegate Hysteria, has now found something else that interests them. And what is it? Uh, a rape case inolving pampered athletes and a black stripper...Why is this important to you people? It seems like another outbreak of Natalie Holloway syndrome. Any time wingnuts can comfort themselves that rich white folk are in fact the TRUE victims in a situation, it seems to transfix them. Just like Natalie wasn't a little drunk brat on a binge, neither are these creepy skanks to be held responsible for anything bad that happens as a result of their degenerate behavior.

Wingnuts, always the champions of rich, white people's right to live without ever having to run up against Personal Accountability or CONSEQUENCES...That seems to be the mantra now. Otherwise, it's hard to figure why you care about this. Aren't there victims of overzealous prosecutors anywhere else in America that you legal eagles could fixate on? Why do you trip over yourselves rushing to defend these lowlifes? I'm sure the case will sort itself out just fine without you all wiping the butts of these little jerks.

[Hit The Bid]

Not looking for the schaudenfreud Bro...as an attendee of an elite institution, I am not self loathing--sorry

[Gary Maxwell]

Because it not with NO FACTS. There are lots of facts including much I have seen with my own lying eyes. One example for you. Warrant for DNA collection that tell the judge that DNA will quickly expose the guilty party. Its online so look it up, instead of telling me I have no facts.

[Gary Maxwell]

Ok Seven now you have HTB and AB/JayDEE/Katrina in your corner. Hows THAT feel?

[Hit The Bid]

I feel a little guilty about it, but I sort of agree with you there AB.

in those instances where I flip across FoxNews, it seems like that is indeed what is going on there...although if these kids had nothing to do with it, I will feel really bad for them. But they will have been victims of our own mass psychology.

[CS]

Thought experiment: reverse the complainant and defendants' races and economic status (or make everyone non-rich.) Leave the "100 percent" IDs, other allegations and alibi evidence as is. Get a different result?

[Hit The Bid]

"Ok Seven now you have HTB and AB/JayDEE/Katrina in your corner. Hows THAT feel?"

answer= probably better than being Gary's panties! Man are they twisted in a bunch!

[RLS]

How about this scenario:

The women were hired to "perform" for two hours IIRC. That obviously did not happen. What if "accuser" shows up at the job site stoned or drunk? She can't perform (meet contractual obligations) so the employer tells her to leave and "stiffs" her.

She looks for revenge by playing the rape card?

Possible?

[Sue]

Oh heck, I knew I couldn't stay quiet.

Why can't anyone here see that rushing off to defend the players with no facts is as bad as rushing off to defend Tawana Brawley without the facts?

Maybe for the same reason you can't see that rushing off in the opposite direction with no facts is just as bad?

[Appalled Moderate]

AB:

The fascination is the collision of one stereotype -- the drunken libidinous athlete/frat boy with another -- the stripper with a heart of ??. The race thing is part of what makes this interesting, but hardly the only thing.

This is the stuff of fiction, playing out as real life. That tends to get a lot of attention.

(And, alas, I can see the political lines starting to form.)

[Dan]

I think we are supporting these guys at this point because the DA appears to be pandering to a mob. He requires DNA tests from all of them and when the results aren't what he wanted, he claims he didn't need them anyway.
He has two people arrested at 5 am and then finds out one has an alibi and the other says he wasn't there (so will likely have an ablibi established in another day or so). Why not take his time and do it right?

[Hit The Bid]

Rock on Appalled Moderate! You give that kind of wisdom away for free?

[Other Tom]

HTB errs in saying that he doesn't fit the liberal stereotype--having previously told us that he was "better" and "elite," he fits it to a T. And what is SM's basis for declaring the players "arrogant?" I haven't heard either of them say a single word. I should think civil libertarians everywhere would be appalled at the unethical behavior of the prosecutor, but apparently not when his targets are white, "privileged" and "arrogant."

[ed]

Hmmm.

1. I've also heard about that allegation that one of the accused was involved in a physical altercation with someone else. But what really does this have to do with anything about this rape case? And what exactly does the other "victim" being gay have anything to do with anything at all?

There's no reason to suspect, as yet, that altercation was *because* the other person was gay. I know this might come as a shock but gay people can be just as annoying and a pain in the ass as straight people.

2. Frankly this nonsense is why I'm utterly opposed to "hate crime" laws. It shouldn't matter whether or not someone is gay, it should only matter that there was an altercation. Such laws effectively create a stratified justice system and we already have far too much of that already.

Increasingly we're in danger of having the justice system lose all credibility. That might not seem like a serious issue, but it's the difference between the rule of law and mob rule. If you're convinced that you cannot get justice through the legal system then you'll seek justice outside of that system, and with all the nasty implications that go along with it.

3. IMHO I think this is nothing more than an elaborate shakedown. Did it start that way? No. But I think once people started seeing dollar signs and book/movie deals this thing has snowballed until it's become a freight train. The accuser probably now wishes she'd never made the accusation, or will in the near future.

Why do I think that?

You cannot convince me that the 2nd stripper wouldn't have immediately noticed the injured and disheveled state of the accuser and called 911 right then and there.

[Hit The Bid]

But Dan...the DA has an alleged victim who says she was raped and positively IDs them. DOes he not have an obligation to the people of that jurisdiction to pursue the case where the facts lead him?

[Appalled Moderate]

CS:

Real experiment. Make everyone black. Same result? Does America care?

I think in the reverse case, you get the same uproar, and if everyone was white, a similar uproar. But if it's all balck athletes and a black stripper, I'm not sure this story gets much farther than North Carolina.