Duke - Bring Better Witnesses

From the ABC News interview with Kim Roberts, the other exotic dancer at the Duke lacrosse party, we learn that Ms. Roberts remembers Colin Finnerty well:

Roberts said Thursday she does not remember Seligmann's face, but said she recalls seeing Finnerty whom she described as the "little skinny one."

"I was looking him right in the eyes," she said.

Uh huh.  From a press release:

Finnerty, a 6-3, 195-pound attackman, tallied 30 points as a junior for Chaminade High School.

Skinny?  Maybe by comparison with some of the others.  If she was looking him in the eyes, she was standing on a box.

MORE:  Fine, let's allow for "program inflation", where no athlete is as big as listed in the program.  Let's also toss in another year' in the weight room.  I'll take 6' 1'', 185 as a minimum for Finnerty's size, and defy any credible witness to call him the "little skinny one".

The balance of the article is hardly a valentine to the Second Dancer, but it is odd that ABC News skipped over the size discrepancy.  Some highlights:

"I was not in the bathroom when it happened, so I can't say a rape occurred and I never will," Roberts told The Associated Press on Thursday in her first on-the-record interview. But after watching defense attorneys release photos of the accuser, and upset by the leaking of both dancers' criminal pasts, she said she has to "wonder about their character."

"In all honesty, I think they're guilty," she said. "And I can't say which ones are guilty … but somebody did something besides underage drinking. That's my honest-to-God impression."

...Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 eight days after the party on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

On Monday, the same day a grand jury indicted lacrosse players Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, a judge agreed to a change so that Roberts would no longer have to pay a 15 percent fee to a bonding agent. District Attorney Mike Nifong signed a document saying he would not oppose the change.

"It seems she is receiving very favorable financial treatment for what she is now saying," Thomas said.

Mark Simeon, Roberts' attorney, said the bond conditions were changed because Roberts is not considered a flight risk. Nifong, who hasn't spoken with reporters about the case in weeks, didn't return a call seeking comment.

Well - since she is still around after her 2001 crime, she may not be a flight risk.  But isn't it interesting that the police and/or the DA picked her up for a chat right after the party - was she that hard to find before?

...Later, police received a 911 call from a woman complaining that she had been called racial slurs by white men gathered outside the home where the party took place. Roberts acknowledged that she made the call because she was angry.

And the Big Finish:

Also Thursday, 5W Public Relations, a New York firm that specializes in "crisis communication," distributed an e-mail signed "The 2nd Dancer," and Roberts confirmed she sent it after learning the AP knew her identity.

"I've found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in the country," she wrote. "I'm worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage."

Opportunity may knock again - I bet her memory could become refreshed once or twice more as offers come in.

STILL MORE:  That press release to which I linked is not the full Duke team, but just the current sophomores, none of who I intend to malign.  However, a quick glance down the list shows one player who could plausibly pass for the "little skinny one"; Finnerty is strikingly average.

Comments

[windansea]

for the very first time

[Gary Maxwell]

Great catch TM giving away likely 8 inches or more but looking him in the eye.

Did you catch the bit about her conviction for "embezzlement from her employer"? So taking money that you have not earned does not trouble her.

Even better is the bit about Nifong changing the terms of her plea deal to make it financially less onerous since this came up. Think the jury will think like ABC that perhaps she has some incentive to lie, coming from the prosecutors office!

[richard mcenroe]

Remember the motto of sex workers and Democratic Congressmen everywhere, "Who do you want me to be?" or, in this case, "What do you want me to see?"

[Appalled Moderate]

There's no way the victim knows who her attackers were. She probably knows who was most abusive to her early in the evening. And she probably recognized the person who used the broomstick line.

I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed below. The woman, by making ids that are suspect with all sorts of certainty has desprived society of the ability to prosecute any crimes that may have happened.

Anyone who has seen a college party get out of hand recognizes the behavior here. (I went to the same school the writer of Animal House did, so I've seen a couple of these) Problem is, the best remedy will be expensive lawsuits and the kids being thrown out of school.

[Gary Maxwell]

"Why shouldn't I profit from it?" she asked.

Your star corrobating witness ( such as it is) Mr. Nifong. You might want to rethink this whole thing.

[epphan]

I suppose if she was on her back and he was...well...I suppose there are several positions where they could be eye to eye!

[Gary Maxwell]

No no Epphan she is a dancer or stripper. We dont use those other words (because frankly if you make her mad she might accuse you of rape too, and remember also being in the same room aint a requirment with this DA ).

[windansea]

"I've found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in the country," she wrote. "I'm worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage."

I can't believe she sent this email...saw it yesterday on Gambling911 and thought it was a hoax....defense attorneys will have a field day with this witness if this joke of a case makes it to court

[Appalled Moderate]

Of course, since the two called to the lacrosse party were "people like that", the lacrosse folks likely felt they could treat them all manner of degrading ways.

I'm more interested that the story seems to hang together, and she doesn't take the easy way of saying "I saw them rape that girl". In other words, I think she is interested in selling her story, but I think she does have a story to sell.

Agreed, though, that this is a pathetic case to try, absent something a whole lot stronger we do not know about.

[windansea]

you think this story "seems to hang together"????

yikes!!

[boris]

Of course, since the two called to the lacrosse party were "people like that", the lacrosse folks likely felt they could treat them all manner of degrading ways.

Of course. It's obvious how "people like that" treat "people like that". They're all alike aren't they?

[Appalled Moderate]

Let's look at this. First, the primary statement the witness says is this:

"I was not in the bathroom when it happened, so I can't say a rape occurred and I never will,"

Whether she thinks one happened is a matter of opinion.

TM catches the bit about the physical id. Frankly, she probably thnks all drunk guys who watch strippers are creeps, so this is a detail that means little. Moving on:

Although she would not talk extensively about the party, she confirmed some of what the other dancer told police including that the women initially left the party after one of the players threatened to sodomize the women with a broomstick.

The players' attorneys have said their clients were angry and demanded a refund when the women stopped dancing, but Roberts disputed that.

"They ripped themselves off when they started hollering about a broomstick," she said

Again -- this sounds like a bunch of drunk young guys (and is similar in tone to that wierd e-mail that got so much press).

Moving along:

Later, police received a 911 call from a woman complaining that she had been called racial slurs by white men gathered outside the home where the party took place. Roberts acknowledged that she made the call because she was angry.

This is consistent with the rumor TM put out on this site earlier.

Roberts drove herself to the party and said she could have left anytime, but she said, "I didn't want to leave her with them."

Roberts then drove the accuser whom she had just met that night to a grocery store and asked a security guard to call 911. The accuser was described later by a police officer as "just passed-out drunk."

Roberts said the woman was sober when they arrived at the house. But by the time the party was over, she said the accuser was too incoherent to tell her where she lived, let alone that she had been raped.

"I didn't do enough," she said, tears welling in her eyes. "I didn't do enough. I didn't do enough.

I am not sure I believe the victim was not drunk when she came in. The rest sounds like human nature and espirt de corps among folks who do a dirty job that can get dangerous.

And, this part rings true as well:

"Don't forget that they called me a damn nigger," she said. "She (the accuser) was passed out in the car. She doesn't know what she was called. I was called that. I can never forget that."

[Sue]

Tom,

Does looking him in the eyes only mean they were the same or close to the same height? Maybe he was sitting on a couch and she was looking into his eyes while dancing? I didn't take that to mean she was nose to nose, eye to eye with him. But, having said that, I can't believe the DA is going with this without DNA evidence. Surely he has it and the defense team is lying.

[ed]

Hmmm.

An interesting speculation:

1. Lax players call up a service for a couple "white" strippers.

2. The accuser and Ms. Roberts, both black, show up.

3. The lax players don't want them to perform and also don't want to *PAY* them.

4. Strippers make a big deal of this, start to leave and threaten to call the police.

5. Under this potential pressure the lax players give in and pay the strippers to perform their act, but the accuser is so whacked out she pretty much does nothing while Ms Roberts either does or does not perform.

6. The players get really pissed off since they're out $400 and get into an argument with the strippers.

7. The strippers finally leave where Ms Roberts drives to the Krogers to get someone to help her get the accuser out of her car. On the way Ms Roberts calls 911 to make the allegation that the players were calling her racial names as payback.

...

Frankly this seems the most likely timeline that takes into account the various things reported.

IMHO I think what we're seeing here is a case of racial extortion coupled with racially and politically motivated prosecution. Ms Roberts and the accuser have both seen the dollars signs and are now looking to jump on the gravy train. Nifong is hoping to save his rotten ass by engaging in malicious prosecution and prosecutorial misconduct.

[Sue]

The dancers didn't arrive together at the party. The alleged victim arrived 30 minutes later. According to others at the party and a neighbor who didn't attend the party.

[ed]

Hmmm.

Frankly I think there has to be a LOT more evidence presented that there were any threats whatsoever with a "broomstick". This looks more like someone is trying to link the lax players with the NYC case of the police officers and the broomstick they used.

For one thing I hadn't noticed the police taking a broomstick from the house. Perhaps they did and nobody mentioned it yet. Perhaps there's no broomstick in the house.

Personally I don't own a broom. I use a vacuum cleaner.

[ed]

Hmmm.

The dancers didn't arrive together at the party.

Did I write that they did?

2. The accuser and Ms. Roberts, both black, show up.

Which is why I didn't use the word "together".

[Sue]

Was I talking to you?

[ed]

Hmmmm.

Was I talking to you?

Did you specifically identify who you were replying to?

If so I didn't see it.

[Sue]

Roberts said the woman was sober when they arrived at the house.

I was referring to this...don't be so defensive...

[windansea]

TM catches the bit about the physical id. Frankly, she probably thnks all drunk guys who watch strippers are creeps, so this is a detail that means little. Moving on:

moving on??? I'm 6'3" 200lbs and have never been called a "skinny little guy"

this is not a "detail that means little"

I hadn't noticed the police taking a broomstick from the house.

sans the broomstick...you must aquit!

[windansea]

I'm 6'3" 200lbs and have never been called a "skinny little guy"

except that time I played golf with Charles Barkley....

[Appalled Moderate]

windandsea:

I wouldn't trust any physical id these girls gave me. I doubt they were really looking at those guys.

[Other Tom]

Lots of speculation going on today--think I'll abstain. I don't think it's speculation to say that Ms. Roberts has now disabled herself as a witness. I also think it's terribly significant that even before the DNA was done, the defense lawyers said that a)no player's DNA will be detected, and b)there will be no defense of "consent" in this case. Those are extremely bold statements that no lawyer would make unless he was absolutely confident that no intercourse had occurred.

[Gary Maxwell]

Surely he has it and the defense team is lying.

And what would you base this on? Remember early on in the Plame mess, we all thought surely the "smartest man in the room" has x and y. Do you think if this marionette of a DA had any DNA evidence he would have put it in the papers. He only had 70 + press interviews and a public forum to do so.

[Gary Maxwell]

except that time I played golf with Charles Barkley.

I bet that was a 2 plus hour hoot. Is he as outspoken one on one as he is on tv?

[Neo]

This whole story is the "legal version" of SNL's "Bad Theater".

[Sue]

Gary,

I know. But damn. How could he indict without it?

[Gary Maxwell]

Other Tom reads the body language and tones the same as I do. From the very start the team has acted like they were not guilty of any crime. They owned up to the name calling, which I am sure their lawyers beat them up pretty good that it was important that they tell them everything. The lawyers disclosed the bad or boorish behavior with the obvious thought lets get this out of the way now. And except for the stupid and disgusting e-mail of the one freshman, I dont think anything has reflected poorly on their credibility. When something comes out, their story holds. When another detail comes out, the story is proved right.

I will bet anyone that Finnerty will be able to produce alibi witnesses that he was never at the party. His lawyers would not have said it if they could not back it up. May not matter since I dont see the DA trundling down the road to not guilty verdict anyway. May 2nd cant get here fast enough.

[Appalled Moderate]

Sue:

The prosecutor in this case is either a fool or figures this was the way to get the black vote. Of course, that same vote will be SO thrilled when he can't get a conviction.

[Gary Maxwell]

Surely the black community will look at the gold digger statments of stripper # 2 and think how inappropriate that is. Of course I was shocked when images of blacks cheering for OJ were shown too.

[Sue]

AM,

I am so tired of the representative of we the people being represented by me the person.

[Appalled Moderate]

Gary:

I would look how this gets played in Ebony, Jet and on BET (and whatever radio stations and media with access to the community down in Durham) before I assume anything. Also, I'm interested what the black churches that way are preaching.

[windansea]

I bet that was a 2 plus hour hoot. Is he as outspoken one on one as he is on tv?

I have played with lots of celebrities and Sir Charles was one of the funniest...and it took way longer than 2 hours...Charles is, shall we say...directionally handicapped

[Other Tom]

Hey Windansea--you from La Jolla?

[windansea]

yes....but I live in Mexico now

[TM]

Does looking him in the eyes only mean they were the same or close to the same height?

Well, in context with describing him as "the little skinny one" I don't think that she is talking about looking him in the eye while he sat on a couch.

But maybe she was on a step ladder adjusting the lighting for the show...

[Hit The Bid]

Hey Folks!

Man I gotta tell you...as it stands right now, this case seems to have clearly broken down for the prosecution. I have not even heard any mention anymore of any hospital report by the rape nurse.

If it continues to break this way, I have two hopes 1) that the case is so ridiculous that both boys are completely cleared and the DA is forced to resign. 2) the two women involved in this case are seen as complete and utter fakes and ridiculed for what they tried to do--and are charged for wrongful whatever-its-called.

When the water gets muddied, like happens alot in these things, you never get that full clarity you always seek so we EVERYONE can get the resolution thats required to move on.

Was that grwon up of me or what!

[Hit The Bid]

grown

[Gary Maxwell]

( see directly above) Man oh man Seven

I truly feel sorry for you now. Only one on your side is AB. I would not wish that on my worst enemy, let alone a guy that I tend to agree with most of the time.

[Hit The Bid]

Not a contest gary...not a contest.

[topsecretk9]

I'm still curious how #1 got to the party and what she was doing before she got there.

[Sue]

Top,

What do you mean #1? The alleged victim? Or the Roberts woman?

[Sue]

Tom,

I know, but when Bush says he looked him in the eye and saw his soul, I don't necessarily think he is describing a person of average height.

[topsecretk9]

BTW

Assuming they came from an actual "escort service" how do they factor in -- as an employer? I'm sure dancers are "sub-contractors" but do they bear any responsibility?

Pretty common now days they send a bouncer or protection for the dancers AND I would think a college team party would be top on the list for this kind of protection.

[topsecretk9]

Sue

The alleged victim

[larwyn]

Ron Torassian, CEO of 5W PR FIRM

on FNC NOW

[Gary Maxwell]

Snoop Doggy Dog PR guy? that ought to be good.

[craig]

There is no case. Period. It will be dropped after Nifong loses the election. 2 of the 3 players she identifed as attackers can prove they were not present while said attack took place. Couple that with her criminal record, lack of ANY supporting phyiscal evidence, lack of a supporting witness account... on and on. If the DA is not holding a smoking gun/blue dress piece of evedence he should be disbarred. Regarding Finnerty, he is rather skinny and tall. I've seen his weight cited at 175lbs. At 6'3'' that is thin, if it matters in the slightest.

[Gary Maxwell]

If anyone is interested in a pretty indepth review of the case as we know it so far LaShawn has done a very thorough job, while dealing with a nasty troll or two. Check it out:

http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2006/04/21/duke-rape-case/> LaShawn

[larwyn]

Hate when I miss the fun - but if I allowed myself to log on prior to all chores/prep for supper done - human and canine malnutritian would result.
---------------------------
ApMod
"people like that"
Tks
ed @ 8:18 ordered white stripper
In a position to watch all the talking head race baiters - and they have "enuendoing" that RICH WHITE BOYS had every intention of securing black women for abuse. They go into the "slavery", Thomas Jefferson thing.
ed @ 8:12 BROOM
Think not only picking up on the NY police broom incident - but I recall, many years ago a Women's Prisons Patty Duke TV movie - had the broom senario. Sure it is now "normal" in any porn/soft porn
depiction in these senarios.
This statement could have been made as in insult that these gals were type that would be "ex-cons". And there actual "ex-con" gals REALLY TOOK OFFENSE.
If you saw last week's Sopranos and how they handled finding that one of the captains was gay - but justifing man/man sex while in prison. Tony and his psych segment is priceless - now famous for the SEn San e tor ri am line.
-----------
Other Tom @ 8;38
RITA Cosby interviewed (EXCULSIVE) Kim (mon/tues) - Kim's identity was hidden. Her story was that she is Hispanic and didn't want her parents to know she was exotic dancer

Someone should ask if that was on top of them not knowing that she stole $25,000.00?

GaryM
disgusting e-mail fr Freshman
Not making excuses - just offering some context:
On yesterday's thread I told my experience with the young workers at the warehouse we had ~25 miles from the city. I was there during trapping season and over deer hunting season. The boys got great pleasure showing off their trap harvest from the morning before reporting to work. All wore Buck Knives on their belts. In disputes with each other - the throw away line was "I'll skin you"
- It was quite shocking to me when I first heard it until I realized that these kids were actually doing that everyday to then sell the pelts.
It was no different than my old Italian Great Gran saying "I gonna puta the pot on yu head".
Like to know if NO 41 is hunter and where he is from.
--------------
ts,
How V got there, where before?
We need to make our list of questions.
I'll repeat that I am thrilled that TWO RICH BOYS were indicted.
Sure they have the very best investigators getting answers to these questions.
Bet they are trying to paw thru the "escort service" records.
---------------
D.C.DEMS/ RACE BAITERS TRYING TO HELP OUT DURHAM DA?

THEY HAVE MOVED UP FINNERTY'S HEARING IN THE ASSAULT ON "GAY"

WANT TO MAKE SURE TO GET ALL THE HATE CRIME IMPLICATIONS IN"

While KIM gets her bail reduced
-----------------------------
How do you think all this is going to effect voters in the MIDTERMS?

I think that anyone paying attention is seeing first hand all the damage that LIBERAL POLICIES AND LAWS AND ANNOINTED VICTIMS has done to our country.

PS JESSIE & AL watch:
They are now busy with the boot camp death

[Gary Maxwell]

The one part of the whole story ( the whole of the part known in the public domain hows that) that had troubled me for some time was the part about 4 fingernails found in the bathroom. That at least suggested a struggle and was therefore some support for the accusation.

I just found this from a story released this am:

Police had found four fake women's fingernails inside the bathroom where the accuser says the attack took place. The fingernails initially were thought to be a sign that a struggle did occur in that room.

But FOX New confirmed that the defense has photos from 12:04 a.m. March 14, showing the dancer already missing several of her fingernails, suggesting that her fingernails were missing before the time of the alleged attack.

so beside her statement and the boys admission that vulgarities were exchanged what else is there that points to a rape?

I am hearing rumors that the Defense has found people who where with the accuser prior to the Duke gig, and that she was drinking. That will destroy the one bit of help the dancer # 2 can add to her story, if its true.

[Sue]

But FOX New confirmed that the defense has photos from 12:04 a.m. March 14, showing the dancer already missing several of her fingernails, suggesting that her fingernails were missing before the time of the alleged attack.

Which has me wondering, once again, what was going on between 11:30 PM and 12:00 AM? Why did she remove her fingernails? The boys said she was in the bathroom polishing her nails during the time of the alleged rape. I can't imagine a stripper in the bathroom polishing her nails.

[Gary Maxwell]

Sue

I cant say this real delicately so I am not going to try. Hope that is not offensive. Hookers rely on their appearance to enhance their "tips". Does that explain nail polishing at least a tiny bit? 30 minutes in the bathroom probably means some illegal substances being ingested. Downers are pretty quick, so is the big H.

[ed]

Hmmmm.

About the report by the "rape" nurse. What I'm wondering is just how subjective that is or if there's a specific guideline that covers this. Is there actually a way to tell the difference between consensual sex or rape?

From past news stories it doesn't seem like there really is an objective standard that can cover this. So if there isn't, then what does the nurse depend on to form the basis of the report? The testimony and behavior of the victim?

[ed]

Hmmm.

30 minutes in the bathroom probably means some illegal substances being ingested.

*shrug* maybe she was throwing up. From the accounts given so far, which may or may not be true, the accuser wasn't able to actually do much dancing.

The inebriated state might also account for the loss of the fingernails. Motor skills do tend to get lost when under the influence so it's not completely impossible for those artificial fingernails to have been lost because of a collision with a sink, toilet or something else in the bathroom.

But since I don't wear them I'm frankly not all that experienced with wearing them.

[steve sturm]

Has anybody else noticed the paragraph (italics mine): "...But after watching defense attorneys release photos of the accuser, and upset by the leaking of both dancers' criminal pasts, she said she has to "wonder about their character"?

If this is an accurate depiction/quote, doesn't it seem that the second dancer could be changing her view as to what happened not based on any 'evidence' but rather because she is upset about what has happened in the aftermath of the supposed assault (the posting of the picture and her criminal record being disclosed).

Just wondering...

[Gary Maxwell]

Leaking of their criminal past. Criminal records are public records unless they are sealed as in deferred adjudication etc. With this much media focus, its hard to think that the media did not get this stuff all on their own.

Whats anybody think at MsNBC allowing this girl to refer to herself ( or was it them refering to her) as Hispanic for a day or so? Seems to antithetical to what they are about
doesn't it. How often do they lie to us for the best of intentions. Dont answer, I am afraid I already know.

[Sue]

Gary,

Don't hold me to the exact times, I don't have the timeline in front of me. The boys claim she was polishing her nails at the time of the alleged rape, between 12:00 & 12:30 AM. The first pictures taken of her, around 12:00 show fingernails already missing. Okay, so the boys are saying that she was in the bathroom during midnight and 12:30 or so, polishing her nails, which could in fact be true since she lost her fake nails sometime prior to the 1st picture. Would someone who had been raped dance afterwards? I guess if she feared them the answer would be yes, but that isn't what she is claiming so I have no idea, really.

[Sue]

The affidavit also says she was choked, which is why she was clawing at them and lost her nails. Okay, the hospital report should back that up. Choke marks on her neck.

[Gary Maxwell]

Fear?

first time I heard that advanced. This girl had a cell phone and probably her pimperh bodyguard on speed dial. She never hits the one key necessary to get her out. HMMMM

[Sue]

Gary,

I said it wasn't her story. I was just wondering if I would be able to dance after being gang raped. If I was afraid I might. But I made the point of saying she wasn't making the claim it occurred before she danced. I was just trying to figure out what happened for 30 minutes before she started dancing and what the heck happened to her nails.

[Gary Maxwell]

Sue

The rape kit as SOP takes shavings under nails and clippings of nails to look for skin DNA as would be present if she clawed anyone. No matches remember?

[cathyf]

30 minutes in the bathroom

Yesterday somebody else commented on this and I'm still perplexed by it. If you have a dozen or 2 dozen people consuming large quantities of beer, and the bathroom is being monopolized for 30 minutes, isn't there going to be quite a crowd outside peeing in the bushes?

Maybe the house had more than one loo...

cathy :-)

[Gary Maxwell]

Several of the boys had public urination convictions so you would think that they might have not taken that route. House picture I saw looked like typical student ghetto structure - old, in need of much maintenance and quite small. Hard to believe that it had many facilities, but I doubt seriously more than two probably just one.

[Gary Maxwell]

I'm still perplexed by it.

Maybe you have inadvertantly hit on the reason why so many left the party shortly after midnight as has been reported including Seligmann. they had to pee, and the facilities were monopolized!!!

[Sue]

Gary,

Dr. Baden, during an interview on an unrelated matter, claimed that DNA from under the fingergnails is not always reliable, because there is also so much other gunk (ouch, very disgusting) under your nails. So, I will discount the DNA under the nails for the moment. There should be other evidence though, from the doctor and nurse, especially marks on her neck from being choked.

[Bob]

I think this is very easy to sort out:

First let's switch the rolls... White strippers with a an all black Basketball team.

These same accusations were made about the black"boys" they would be construed as racist stereotype.

You would have the Rev Jesse, and his side show Al screaming about racism, and accusing the white women of stereotyping black basketball players... i.e. Kobe Bryant.

When I first heard about this story, my wife and I thought it seemed reasonable that this could in fact have happened. Now I don't apologize for my quick rush to judgement, but let's be honest, it's hard not to... 'cause I've seen enough in my days. But we were smart enough to know that all the facts weren't known yet, and therefore would wait and see. Now I would have expected the DA to have done the same. I'm sure his first reaction was similar, but then I would have expected him to take the high road, and be sure to know the facts before putting what now appears to be very innocent young men through such nonsense... at least with regards to the rape allegation. I guess his local election was way too important, to let the facts get in the way.

So if you want to see the joke that this is, just do the "switch" and then look at the facts.... you'll quickly see the hypocrisy in this case.

One final note: Why all these liberals so convinced this woman was telling the truth and the boys were lying, when Juanita Broderick was totally trashed when it was known that Slick Willy Clintoon raped her.

As always in the minds of the liberals, that was different... right !

[larwyn]

Repairing her fingernails?

Maybe she had signed up for another later gig.

She was due there at 11:30pm - early in evening for this kind of activity. Not big call for this at afternoon teas.

A missing fake fingernail not only exposes the ugly beneath - but gets others wondering what else is fake.

Was she killing time getting herself "re gussied up" while waiting for her transport to next gig?

CIA OFFICER FIRED FOR LEAKING

Both FOX & CNN now reporting fired for leaking to unathorized person in the media.

CNN mention the prisons.

[Sue]

Larwyn,

Wow. Fox says he admitted disclosing the information. Wow.

[larwyn]

SUE,
WHAT A SUMMER UPCOMMING!

Conservatives should really send thank you notes to thIS DURHAM DA.

THE EXPOSURE OF HATE CRIME LEGISLATION
THE EXPOSURE OF "ANNOINTED VICTIMS"

THE "END JUSTIFIES MEANS - RICH WHITE DISPOSABLE"

Hey, Lawyers out there - Top weathy class over 2,000,000 ?? I think ~2% of population. Doesn't that make them a MINORITY.

LETS MAKE IT A CLAIM TO HATE THE RICH - A class I hope my family members will break into.

[ordi]

FNC is now saying the CIA leak was concerning the Secret Prisons. Also there are OTHER investigations ongoing! (Hear that Rockafeller)!

[cfw]

Sue -

"Why did she remove her fingernails?"

Perhaps she took some off, because they were falling off.

"The boys said she was in the bathroom polishing her nails during the time of the alleged rape."

How would they know? How does one polish nails when drunk? I could see taking off nails, with help from the embezzler, and painting the nail beds. Hanging in the b-room for 20-30 minutes suggests trying to sober up, yes?

It is an odd fact that nails were there, and nail polish on the back porch indicates some spilling of paint, or touching of wet nails on the porch.

Latest letter from Duke looks a bit too much like a mea culpa for an institution that bring over 3.2 billion to Durham each year. "Durham, N.C. -- Duke University’s total economic impact on the city and county of Durham is estimated at $3.2 billion per year, according to a new study of the economic relationship between Duke and Durham." Duke University, News & Communications, April 21, 2006.

Letter from Two Young Trustees on Lacrosse Events

By Brandon J. Goodwin and P. Justin Klein

[Clssic prep names, yes?]

Wednesday, April 19, 2006

The following letter ran as an advertisement in the April 19 issue of the Chronicle. Brandon J. Goodwin (Trinity Class '06) and P. Justin Klein (Trinity Class '99, School of Medicine '06) are young trustees (elect) on Duke University's Board of Trustees.

[Youngsters, but even so, they deserve some gentle constructive criticism.]

Durham, N.C. -- To Members of the Duke and Durham Community:

The suggestion that disrespect, irresponsibility, misogyny or racism have seeds within our university’s community -- or that they may even be prevalent in our midst -- has understandably demoralized the Duke and Durham community.

[What about calling for some soul-searching within the parts of the Durham community that have backed Nifong?]

As students who take great pride in our university and its people, we believe that those evils violate the spirit of Duke and must be openly addressed by students.

[Show some stones - tell the community who to vote for on May 2, or who the trustees (elect) plan to vote for. If the trustees (elect) are undecided, what would make them vote for Nifong or Black?]

They have no place in our community, and must not be tolerated.

[Stating the obvious?]

Time and patience are required to determine the appropriate resolution to the events and allegations involving the Duke men’s lacrosse team that cast a shadow over our community.

[Do what on May 2, please?]

However, what we can achieve right now is a positive and productive response that truly reflects the character of Duke University and its students. Accordingly, we believe it is our immediate duty to affirm and cultivate the values that make our institution great and will make our community stronger.

[How about presenting a debatable thesis and making an actual argumnet? We do not need to spend hundreds of thousands educating trustees (elect) who do no more than spout platitudes, yes?]

The Duke Community Standard binds our community as one of scholars and learners, committed to the principles of honesty, trustworthiness, fairness, and respect for others.

[How much more bovine can we get?]

Students share with faculty and staff the responsibility for promoting a climate of integrity. As citizens of this community, students are expected to adhere to these fundamental values at all times, in both their academic and non-academic endeavors.

[And what of talking out of school as DA? Or yammering on about oppression of blacks or women at an NCCU forum and in daily pot-banging vigils before the evidence has unfolded? Or dropping Duke students in court before completion of a proper investigation? Where is the indignation at evident prejudice against Duke, please?]

Duke and its students hold integrity and the rights of equality, human dignity and morality as the core of our bonds with one another and with the city we call home. We challenge the inherent risks of allowing assumption and prejudice to serve as the basis for judgment.

[What would these trustees (elect) like done with respect to the current election? What would they do if they were co-DA? What would they have done from March 13 to now? If they are not lawyer, they have lawyers they can talk to, right? Is that not the point of going to a university that has law students and law faculty? And this legal work by the DA is not rocket science.]

Furthermore, we view all citizens of Duke and Durham as members of one contiguous community, and believe that we should embrace each other with appreciation and respect. These are truths that we should hold to be self-evident, and we must work together to fortify those truths as the foundation of our community.

[Self-evident truths - can we have some Gettysburg address too? Does this make Duke look a bit priggish? Can we get the head out of the clouds before pontificating?]

Duke students, student athletes, and alumni -- diverse by economic background, ethnicity, ideas and religious beliefs -- endow our university with a tradition of leadership in the service of society.

[Trustees elect are not showing any leadership here, are they?]

To uphold this legacy, we as individuals pledge ourselves to introspection and to support whatever actions are necessary to promote respect, responsibility and trust.

[And what do Duke folks have rights to expect in return from the DA, the police, the City council and the community? Nothing?]

We invite every student, alumnus, faculty member, employee and neighbor in the Duke community to join us in affirming our commitment to these values and to action that will lead our community to greater unity.

[Unbelievable that they do not suggest that the 37,000 Duke employees and 12,000 students make sure they vote, in person or by absentee ballots, on May 2. Common sense and democracy in action, yes?]

[Duke of Norfolk]

Is THAT...your witness?

[DwilkersDog]

Whoa.

CIA officer fired for leaking. Goss has 2 1/2 years left to clean house. This could get very interesting.

Look for the guy (or gal. whatever) to emerge as a media hero in the next few weeks, become a darling of the left, and announce a book signing.

[Dwilkers]

grrr

[CS]

Then there's this, on the photo IDs: http://www.nbc17.com/news/8885627/detail.html . Holy crap.

[larwyn]

See Abrams now only Duke player photos used for identification of Suspects

missed the testimony and her saying
percentages of positive ID.

Norman Early , V apologist is spinning like crazy.

[larwyn]

FORGET ALL YR LIBBY & DUKE PLAYER & GAS $$ WORRY!
TAKE YR VACATIONS EARLY - LIKE NOW!

email today:
Best of the Web Today - April 21, 2006By JAMES TARANTO
Journalistic Identity Crisis
Greg Mitchell, editor of Editor & Publisher, a trade magazine for newspapermen, declares that "America faces a crisis almost without equal in recent decades":

Our president, in a time of war, terrorism and nuclear intrigue, will likely remain in office for another 33 months, with crushingly low approval ratings that are still inching lower. Facing a similar problem, voters had a chance to quickly toss Jimmy Carter out of office, and did so. With a similar lengthy period left on his White House lease, Richard Nixon quit, facing impeachment. Neither outcome is at hand this time.

SNIP

Bring It On!
"Eric Julien, a former French military air traffic controller and senior airport manager, has completed a study of the comet 73P Schwassmann-Wachmann and declared that a fragment is highly likely to impact the Earth on or around May 25, 2006," according to a press release from the Exopolitics Institute ("Political Analysis & Activism in Extraterrestrial Affairs"):

Comet Schwassman-Wachmann follows a five-year orbit that crosses the solar system's ecliptic plane. It has followed its five year orbit intact for centuries; but, in 1995, mysteriously fragmented. According to Julien, this is the same year that a crop circle appeared showing the inner solar system with the Earth missing from its orbit. He argues the "Missing Earth" crop circle was a message from higher intelligences warning humanity of the consequences of its destructive nuclear policies. . . .

Julien argues that the kinetic energy of even a 'car sized' fragment will impact the Earth with devastating effect. He concludes the May 25 event is tied in to the Bush administration's policy of preemptive use of nuclear weapons against Iran, and the effect of nuclear weapons on the realms of higher intelligences..

So it's Bush's fault! But at least Greg Mitchell can breathe easy. If the comet hits and destroys Earth, the president's term will be cut short, 32 months early. Crisis averted!.......Taranto

Rats! we're never going to the bottom of Plame affair. Not going to see
Rocky & Durbin frogmarching - but at least BUSH CRISIS will be resolved.

[larwyn]

Durham Investigators now questioning local NBC station regarding who else in photos
- playing catch-up/embarassed

Norm Early uses this to spin on ID
of the kid that said
"only a stripper"
He said that statement
"means a lot to me" Early is Black and keeps spining everything that has come out.
Surprised he is not wearing a Thomas Jefferson t shirt or standing in front of TJ's home - in case you didn't get what it
"means"!

[Gary Maxwell]

To obtain the identification, Durham police showed the woman a photo array that included only photos of the 46 lacrosse team members, sources said.

So if she was already somewhat suspect in her descriptions and her fellow "dancer" has been caught in a lie, you dont put some convicted felony photos in front of her in addition to some players and see if she has any idea of who she is accusing?

Now why shouldn't this be thrown out? If it is there is NO evidence at all, near as I can tell. This DA should lose his license to practice in NC, I would not let him draw up wills or contest parking tickets.

[Bob in Pacifica]

I notice that there wasn't any clarification from Roberts' statement regarding the amount of time her partner spent in the bathroom, or where she herself had been during that time.

Did Roberts continue to dance while her partner disappeared? Did it cross her mind that her partner may be in trouble? Or at least not holding up her end of the job?

I've wondered, since there is a gap of time in the pictures, that perhaps Roberts had been entertaining players individually in another room during that time. That would explain the gap of time in her story and the gap in pictures. It would also explain why one man said to another (according to Bissey, the nosiest neighbor in the world), "It's only a hundred."

Of course, if Finnerty had been in a side room with Roberts, he would have an alibi and we would have an explanation as to why Roberts referred to him as the skinny little one.

Or not.

In any case, I wonder if there is an inclusive timeline which has Neighbor Bissey, the cab driver, the time-stamped photo and the Roberts' recollections.

[CS]

Here's NC "best practices" for photo lineups. Note III.1(e) on "fillers". http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/ids/News%20&%20Updates/Eyewitness%20ID.pdfIt's hard not to conclude that there was no suspect as of 4/4. Why do the photo lineup as they did if there were? Wouldn't the D love to see the CPD and DA's notes on all the complainant interviews before 4/4? Probably not discoverable, though.

The worst is that this methodology didn't help the DA a bit. The Seligmann/Finnerty IDs are equivalent to the witness picking out fillers.

This one will be appealed by either side. This will take a while.

No word on the second-round DNA, or are we not safely past the news cycle yet? (Snark.)

[CS]

*DPD*

[larwyn]

BobinPac,
Thanks for:

"It would also explain why one man said to another (according to Bissey, the nosiest neighbor in the world), "It's only a hundred.""

Knew I heard it and put in several comments since original JOM post on this issue.

I used it to show they mustn't have been that RICH = as $100.00 divided by 40+ party attenders is only $2.00 each.

Proving you get what you pay for.

AB
If you are hanging around - I left you a love note on the 100% thread in reply to your reply

I went back to find the copy of the email Kim sent to get her PR FIRM LINED UP.

BE PROUD AB, BE PROUD!

[DO]

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but Bob raises what I think to be a compelling point here. It isn't uncommon for strippers to provide "private entertainment" to individuals. That the strippers were really prostitutes or that the boys perceived them to be prostitutes would explain a lot of the troubling facts better than the existing dominant hypotheses. Any takers on this or too speculative?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

House picture I saw looked like typical student ghetto structure - old, in need of much maintenance and quite small.

Gary, I've never been in that particular house, but I've spent a lot of time on that block. The houses aren't the little student-ghetto cottages, they're large older houses built by senior faculty and such in the 20's. (Nearly bought one about a block from there.) They'd very likely have more than one bathroom, and if they've been converted for student rental, might have 3 or 4.

[cfw]

DO -

"That the strippers were really prostitutes or that the boys perceived them to be prostitutes would explain a lot of the troubling facts better than the existing dominant hypotheses. Any takers on this or too speculative?"

$200 per hour sounds like a lot for only dancing.

But I suspect we would have heard detail about penises and seen some DNA evidence (at least hair transfer) if V or the embezzler actually performed services.

If V had offered sex (as an adjunct or substitute for dancing) and been refused, that might explain some shorting of money. Might also explain why only V claimed rape. Maybe V was waiting in the b-room for embezzler to finish.

I have not heard that embezzler claimed to be underpaid. Perhaps she danced more, or offered some sex and had her offer accepted.

It does not look like the party had anything like 46 lax players at any relevant time. If there were 10 or so college kids, splitting an expected $800 bill, I would certainly hope (economically speaking, and leaving morals aside) they had more than a few minutes of dancing in mind. I doubt they had in mind 2 hours of 2 dancers - seems like it would get tedious within say 30-40 minutes. That leaves dancing plus some possible sex in exzchange for say $80 each, yes? Why Nifong did not grill each player in detail before filing anything escapes me. Must not have followed the escapades of Fitz on JOM.

[larwyn]

CFW,
They REQUESTED WHITE STRIPPER!

Will the race baiters now spin the boys refusal to do deal with blacks as BIGOTRY - and HATE CRIME
AGAINST BLACK PROSITUTES!

JESSIE JACKSON WILL BE ON HANNITY.

Combs just said "What about the womens' reputations.

Let's see,
EXOTIC DANCERS
EMBEZZLER OF 25,000.00
DRUNKEN DRIVING
STOLD CAR
ETC
ETC

WHAT REPUTATIONS?????

[Other Tom]

How do we know that they requested white strippers?

[Delta House]

We certainly hope that this unfortunate episode won't cause any lasting bad feelings between the exotic dancers of N.C. Central and the alumni of Duke University. This quality relationship has been decades in the making. It would certainly be a sad occasion if this sorry turn of events was able to deny future generations of drunken club-wielding Blue Devils from enjoying the Lap Dances and Booty-calls of N.C. Central's finest.

Sincerely,

Otter, Bluto, Pinto and Flounder.

[TM]

How do we know that they requested white strippers?

What is knowledge? The Ankle Biting Pundit has an anon but connected source, and, oddly, so do I (in my case, it is the New Jersey high school/college gossip mill - sort of a nephew's friend's big brother is on the Duke team type deal).

And my rumor is, they wanted a white girl, and had an argument at the outset with the women who showed up.

[ed]

Hmmmm.

1.

$200 per hour sounds like a lot for only dancing.

Actually that sounds reasonable *if* the dancers fit what the players wanted. Not sexual acts, but description, appearance, etc. $200 for a girl that didn't even come close to what you wanted is something to get angry about.

Frankly everything about this sounds to me like a payment dispute between the dancers and disgruntled customers. Some people might want to read the comments about the players being angry and talk of the dancers calling the police as evidence of a rape.

IMHO that would actually fit disgruntled customer/payment dispute rather better.

2.

That leaves dancing plus some possible sex in exzchange for say $80 each, yes?

Ummmm. No.

A reasonably attractive girl can command at least $300 for an hour in the NYC area. Frankly I'd seriously doubt that $80 would get you anything even in Durham. And by that I mean that there's a certain amount of availability in college towns and cities so there's more competition for customers. But there's also more customers to even things out.

And there's no chance of group sex with that paltry sum.

...

*shrug* I ran with a fairly wild crowd when I was younger.

[ed]

Hmmm.

That the strippers were really prostitutes or that the boys perceived them to be prostitutes would explain a lot of the troubling facts better than the existing dominant hypotheses. Any takers on this or too speculative?

Some strippers, but not all or even most, do some "side work". You really can't make an assumption about that because it's an individual choice with a lot of variables.

Now it's possible that the dancers were in fact prostitutes, but the amounts being talked about here are really just ridiculously low so I seriously doubt they were hired for anything other than as dancers.

[ed]

Hmmm.

@ cfw

"The boys said she was in the bathroom polishing her nails during the time of the alleged rape."

*shrug* what do you say when someone asks you what a woman was doing in the bathroom?

"polishing her nails" could easily be the equivalent of "beats the hell out of me". I know I use the old "she's checking her makeup" enough times.

IMHO unless someone comes across with something that really is incriminating I'm going to take the view that there's a reasonable explanation for all of this.

[MayBee]

The ABC (local) timeline of the photos of the girl have her with pink splotches on her body, the defense says it's wet nail polish. If her fake (painted) nails were falling off, she could very well have been painting the broken nails in the bathroom.

full disclosure: I have painted my broken nails in a bathroom (not my own) before. I am not a stripper.

[cfw]

Does anyone find it odd that there are photos of a stripper falling down stairs, getting in the car, etc.? Are these supposed to be for the lax player's screen saver? Were they from one camera or more than one?

Perhaps V or embezzler objected to having photos, or wanted more $$ if they were to be in photos? That could explain no dancing on camera after 4 minutes.

Most likely, by 12:30-:50 on 3/14, the lax players (or at least the one(s) with the camera) knew they had a disgruntled service provider. Photog taker wanted to document why it was ok to pay V less than $400, I suppose, in case they got hauled in to small claims court.

If embezzler and V had cell phones, why did they not call their dispatcher? Dispatcher, probably paid a %, had economic incentive to come and get the dispute settled, yes?

If dispatcher was not keen on facing down 10-15 lax players, why not call cops then? If dispatcher was a woman - maybe the embezzler was the dispatcher - that could explain no show up (by phone or in person) by any outside dispatcher (manager, pimp, etc.).

I hear V had been on 20 or so one-on-one escort dates before this event. Any bets on whether she might have had sex on one or more of those dates? Any bets on whether she might have had anal sex at least a time or two in her 27 years? I suspect with the right sort of reward money on offer, one could find a connection between KY jelly (found in the house) and one or more of the prior sex encounters of V (or embezzler). Looks like the E has put her testimony up for sale.

I have not heard that embezzler had any job (except dancer) after taking $25,000 from a photofinisher in 2001.

How does one in the photofinishing business lose $25,000 to an embezzler? That is a lot of payroll, at $8-10 per hour. E must have been cutting checks to some non-existent (on no longer working) employee(s). Probably had an accomplice (or two).

Perhaps Nifong has some confidential informant with photos of V having sex with at least one lax player. If he has less than that, I am not seeing a viable case.

Maybe V or embezzler did make a call or two, and that helps explain the time in the b-room. They had cell phones.

Hopefully someone is checking phone records from all the phones that were in the house at the relevant times. Call up the NSA and Alberto G can probably get the calls played back, right?

[Bob in Pacifica]

With the lack of DNA evidence with the alleged victim, and depending on what physical evidence the hospital nurse found and what constitutes being "consistent with rape," and the prevailing timeline, it seems to me, at 9 a.m. on Sat 4/22, that it was unlikely there was a rape, or that the alleged victim even had sex there. But I'm open to new evidence, and I've changed opinions a few times so far.

I wonder if Kim, the second stripper, had been turning a trick or two while the other was locked in the bathroom. That would explain the $100 comment and "sober" Kim's being preoccupied so as not to notice her missing partner. It has been a very long time since I've had the services of a prostitute so I have no idea what any "going rate" would be in our post-AIDS world.

The source of and substance which caused the alleged victim's intoxication should be paramount. It seems the DA would have mentioned it if part of his case involved slipping the stripper rufies. Kim now says that the alleged victim had "changed" when she left the party. That could mean she was in shock, but it certainly reflected her state, falling down the back stairs and having been helped into the car and the AV's being passed out at Kroger's.

I've heard reports of her having consumed a lot of alcohol before she went to the party. Whatever, aside from her rap sheet we don't have much knowledge of any substance abuse history. What is clear is that anyone so intoxicated upon leaving the house would not be in a very good position to be identifying people at that party no matter how she came to her condition. I've heard on other blogs that they took a blood sample as part of her hospital visit. I bet the defense lawyers can't wait to see those results if she were tested for alcohol or drugs.

[CS]

Little tiles for the mosaic:

A southern public defender I'm related to says there's likely no admissibility problem with the lineup (showing only team members, especially if they showed members they knew weren't at the party), but it's in the gray zone. Moving to exclude is of course just the first arrow in the defense's proverbial quiver.

The same source says that SANE workups usually don't include blood work. They can if they think there's a reason, but it's not routine. This general statement is confirmed by an ER MD down the block. So there may be no bloodwork shoe waiting to drop.

My son played ACC lax and my nephew does now. Duke lax has been notorious in the ACC/Big East/mid-Atlantic prep universe as bad boys, on and off the field. Not to relate that to any individual, or even to claim it has a factual basis. But the reputation's been there, and not just in Durham or only since the school warned the coach last year. (Sorry, can't quite think of a cliched metaphor to end this paragraph.)

[TM]

I agree - per Jeralyn Merritt, the lineup procedure was legal, but contrary to No Carolina "best practices".

That said, it will be easily mocked at trial (well, there won't be a trial, but if there were to be one...).

Put it this way - with the procedure they used (showing her photos only of the lacrosse team and letting her pick three), *I* could have picked out three players. Blindfolded.