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April 05, 2006

Comments

Gary Maxwell

AB is a an unreconstructed Stalinist. The rhetoric is indistinguishable from that on the website of International A.N.S.W.E.R. for example. He hides by many names JAYDEE, Katrina are two of the more memorable ones. Ignor the communist. He is likely a professor at a NE liberal arts school in the social science disciplines. Totally buffered from reality.

Sue

Well, Jay Dee claimed to have sat the Vietnam War out in England.

Jake - but not the one

On Clarice's behalf, and I am not her supporter on much else, it is not a requirement of citizenship that you serve in the military. We all get to speak with equal authority, that of being an American citizen.

Jake

clarice

Thank you, Jake.

AB

Wow, the legend of JayDee lives on...and accumulates inflated distortions! Cool...You guys really don't have any lives other than this place, do you?

Stalinist! Maxwell, someday you really have to fess up and tell how old you are. I mean, I think I'll respect you anyway. Most people your age don't even know how to use the Internet.

Squiggler

AB, first of all I am not an ARMY wife ... we were proud Navy for 30 years. Second, I worked every day outside the home during those 30 years because we paid the military such a pittence, there was no way to support a family on military pay. Third, I am as middle class as one could ever be ... actually, as a disabled senior I'm poverty class, but I can say that I have never taken nor asked for a hand out from anyone, nor would I expect a hand out. The closest I've ever come to asking for any outside financial help is to put a tip jar on my blog and if you read the explanation, you will see that even that bothers me to do.

Oh, and I have no health coverage because I'm not old enough for Medicare and pre-existing conditions prevent me from getting regualar coverage, so I muddle through. I don't bitch and complain and blame the President for my personal circumstance (no matter who that President is or which party he or she represents). And your argument is so much bunk ... look at Hillary, she has spent her entire life living off the public dole, never having a real job. Or Kerry, who has spent his entire adult life living off the public dole and being a "gigolo" or "kept" man. Real role model there.

boris

Even BJ wasn't half as bad as trolls claim W is. If it's projection, it's on drugs.

AB

Squiggler, sounds like you should apply for a job at Walmart. According to you, they give health insurance out now.

Rick Ballard

Boris,

'Shrooms gone bad? It might be paresis, I suppose. But then again 'Koslandia - An Empire of the Mindless' has many subjects and he doesn't make less sense than most of them.

I wonder if they'll just reload the same tapes on Nov. 8th after they get their butts kicked again?

Squiggler

AB - believe me I would, but I'm a bit indisposed with a broken back.

The Unbeliever

AB, Reality and I get along just fine, thanks for asking. But recently Reality has had some complaints about the way you ignore her--it'd be nice if you dropped in and said "hi" to her once in a while.

Anyways, you seem to bring up a zillion complaints whenever someone disagrees with you; not with the actual arguments--which you conveniently ignore--but with their alleged motivations, or personal life, or the size of their bank account, or whatever.

Kindly save us all some time and sketch out exactly who is worthy enough to disagree with your exalted analysis of Life, the Universe, and Everything? How many kids do we have to have before we're allowed to cast a vote for President? How poor do we have to be before we can voice a legitimate opinion on the economy? If I voluntarily give up my health insurance so that I have none, do I get two votes? How about if I sell all my posessions, donate it all to the DNC, and live in a dirt hut in a commune--does that give me enough points to commit unending logical fallacies in a debate like you do?

Silly me, I could've sworn the Founding Fathers wanted all American citizens involved in the public discourse, regardless of how many Victim Points they may or may not have. (And as I type this in Preview, I see Jake already made that point.) But I guess we need to contact the National Archives, and have them update the Constitution, Federalist Papers, etc with the shiny new AB version of how things should be.

M. Simon

You know there are a lot of sppeding law violators that need to be taken care of.

We are making a list - none of them will be missed.

Squiggler

However if there is an employer out there looking for someone who can telecommute and will work cheap, I'm open to any and all offers, even if it doesn't include benefits.

clarice

Rick, in your earlier discussion of why it is obvious Plame wasn't classified you leave out this: If when Harlow told Martin about Plame he told her it was classified information it would have been in Fitz' papers. Obviously Harlow didn't, because he first told the same thing freely to Novak about a month later and only afterward contacted him to tell him the info was "classified". If there was any carelessness it lies at Langley's feet.

Gary Maxwell

Collectivist thy name is .... well which alias are you using today JayDee?Katrina?AB? Tell us again the story of the big bad corporations that stole everyone money and how the good union made them stop. Its such a good one and so much more entertaining than your Chimpy act.

AB

You have a broken back and no health coverage and you are "muddling through"? Rather implausible, but hey...if it's true, I can see why you're so proud of our system :)

Unbeliever, victimhood is your middle name, as with all conservatives who are having such a hard time wondering why they can't still be the victims now that they run the whole country. (I think that's where the War on Christians comes in.) How the hell am I preventing anyone from speaking their mind or having an opinion. I'm just exposing your pompous hypocrisy. Reality is not what you decide it is, anymore than patriotism is what draftdodger Limbaugh defines it to be.

Looks like you all have a nice little echo chamber going on here most days. Just thought you'd enjoy a peek at the world you're using this site to ignore. You all seem to perk up a little bit when you get a break from your meaningless Plame obsession and how that Joe Wilson is going to get HIS one day...

JM Hanes

Jeff

Last time around we learned that Libby had testified he was authorized to disclose portions of the NIE by "his superiors." Since that pool was limited to the Veep & the Prez, I'm just not sure how it's news that the only people he could have been referring to were the people he was referring to. In fact, that's probably why Fitz decided there was no particular reason to be coy about the reference, since it was already basically in the public record.

Seems to me the real news here is that Fitz has essentially outlined his entire case in response to a discovery motion from the defense. This is far and away the most interesting, expansive, & substantive collection of info Fitz has produced to date -- and some of the better legal arguments his team has proffered as well.

There are still a lot of contradictions though. On first reading, I was really struck by the fact that he repeatedly argues that discovery materials should be limited to those relevant to the crimes laid out in the indictment, yet he himself, rather carefully, never refers to the obstruction charge.

It occurs to me to wonder if he might have originally included the obstruction count as a convenient catch-all for any of those asides he's so fond of that the Prosecution might want to bring up at trial -- since the materiality requirement is apparently looser than it is for perjury. Unfortunately, that makes it a double edged sword, and I suspect he may wish he'd stuck to charging lying and perjury alone. You'd certainly think those were the only accusations on the table if you read his filings without having read the indictment itself.

At any rate, there's a lot here to digest, and while I'm not surprised at the the current media emphasis I, personally, think the naming of the Prez is the least interesting revelation it contains.

JM Hanes

AB
[yawn]

boris

a peek at the world you're using this site to ignore

Your planet isn't worth peeking at.

PeterUK

Mr Ballard,
Does not AB read like Mark Garrity.The trouble with these one trick ponies is that they become old nags.

Squiggler

>> You have a broken back and no health coverage and you are "muddling through"? Rather implausible, but hey...if it's true, I can see why you're so proud of our system :)<<

Yes, muddling through because over 40 years of working, I took my parents' advice and put 10% of my paycheck into savings and investment so that I could be self-sustaining in my retirement. The fact that I now have to use that "rainy day" money because it is raining right now in my world just proves the point that my parents were right to teach me about good money management and individual responsibility so that I have something to fall back on. I do not consider myself to be a victim, I consider myself to be in a rather complicated spot where I'm very capable of giving a full day's productive work but incapable of getting out of the house and off a back board to do it. On the other hand, if I'd had a stroke with accompanying mental deterioration, I had my tongue cut out and couldn't speak on a telephone, or had my hands cut off so I couldn't type, then I might consider throwing myself on the mercy of the state and ask for one of those gov't. handouts. Until then, I will continue to find ways to supplement my savings to cover my monthly expenses and "muddle through" as I search for a way to be gainfully employed full time while in recovery.

maryrose

Kerry making wild statements about President Bush on Hardnball saying he should fire himself after leaking classified info to ruin rep of Wilson and Plame. What a loser Kerry continues to be!

Barney Frank

JMH,

Let me join you in your yawn.

I believe Thursday is the day they open up the squirrel cages at many of our finer state hospitals.
The guys with the nets will be along shortly.

Barney Frank

And by the way Jake that was a classy move to stick up for clarice.

The Unbeliever

Strange, I don't recall applying for victimhood status. Methinks you're projecting, though I've no idea why; I'm comfortable letting my arguments stand on their own without appealing to some kind of persecution complex.

How the hell am I preventing anyone from speaking their mind or having an opinion. I'm just exposing your pompous hypocrisy.

By dismissing an argument or a stated position by claiming the speaker has no standing to speak. It's not censoring in the physical sense of preventing speech, it's an intellectual censoring that brooks no arguments unless the opponent meets whatever zany criteria you come up with. When you imply that only soldiers/veterans can morally support a war, or only someone with kids is morally allowed to help decide the nation's future, or any of the other equally silly constructs you've thrown up--you're trying to shut down debate until your artificially imposed conditions are met. It is, to put it politely, logically unsound; not to mention it directly runs against the very spirit of the country you claim to be so worried about.

The only thing "exposed" here is your stubborn refusal to argue ideas on the merits, without trying an illogical runaround to dismiss others' arguments.

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

Beyond that, we have entered into a classified/declassified fog with the INR being conflated with the NIE and eyes turning away from dear old Armitage and Powell. We keep assuming that Val was on the CIA payroll (and under their classification system) but we don't know if she was also on State's payroll (and subject to their classification system). UGArmitage and Powell both possessed the authority to declassify wrt the INR, Tenet had the authority wrt CIA matters and Bush and Cheney had it with everything.

And if Val was covert, then she outed herself on her second date with Munchausen - who had no "need to know" even if he still possessed any clearance. Not to mention the abysmally shoddy tradecraft that allowed her name to appear on his bio at the EPICfest.

Was Harlow's delay in responding to Novak occasioned by Val's being "in transition" or in the process of being declassified on paper after having been declassified de facto by a principal (paper to follow)? That's always been my guess - he called Tenet and later checked his computer and found a mismatch that sent him scurrying for the phone.

It's also my bet as to why Fitz wants to keep the CIA referral in a black box on the top shelf of his bedroom closet. It has too many 'possibles' and 'potentials' written into it and he knows precisely the type of hash that TeamLibby will make of it.

Specter

All Right AB and nuckleFutz....time to put up or shut up. Why don't your give us some facts instead of rhetoric. Anyone can come into a forum and blast away with words, but I haven't seen one fact from either of you all day.

BTW - nucklefutz - I'm a little to old to enlist, but my son has. What have you contributed except empty words?

And AB - wow the Coast Guard - bet you saw a lot of combat huh? What - wouldn't the other services take you or did you want to stay close to mommy?

Gary Maxwell

I haven't seen one fact from either of you all day.

Nor will you. Olestra Liberals totally fact free.

Barney Frank

Specter,

Just as we were getting the toddlers back to sleep you have to come in and make a bunch of noise. :)

Specter

Sorry Barney....had to go out and earn a living for a while.

PeterUK - I think you may have hit the nail on the head - he does sound like markg8....

PeterUK

Sprecter,
Coast Guard,It's a mans life on the Fire Island Ferries.

Syl

markg8 doesn't use such big words. Same ideas though.

Squiggler

I would like to get back to the discussion this whole thread started with. I started with "Just One Minute" this morning and just now took time to read some other posts around the blogosphere, including this from Instapundit referencing the Sun article we started with here:

JOHN adds: This is the same "scandal" the press tried to sell a few months ago. I wrote about it here. The Sun article (unlike some other press accounts) explains clearly what was going on. Intelligence insiders like Joe Wilson were leaking a combination of falsehoods and minority views to the press in order to challenge the administration's decision to go to war with Iraq. This was deeply unfair. In October 2002, the intelligence agencies presented to the administration their "consensus estimate" with regard to Iraq's WMD programs. The consensus of all of the agencies (CIA, DIA, etc.) was, with a "high level of confidence":

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

We are not detecting portions of these weapons programs.

Iraq possesses proscribed chemical and biological weapons and missiles.

Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons grade fissile material.

The Bush administration naturally relied on the consensus of the intelligence agencies in making decisions about Iraq and in describing the dangers of Saddam's regime to the American people. This is why the "Bush lied" theme is so foolish.

In the summer of 2003, as noted above, the administration was besieged with leaks from liberals in the CIA and elsewhere, as well as op-eds by the likes of Joe Wilson, that misrepresented the state of the intelligence prior to the Iraq war. In order to deal with these false claims, the administration declassified the 2002 intelligence estimate. (It didn't help; the estimate remains a closely guarded secret among most MSM types.) The "leak" that you're reading about in headlines today was simply the permission given to Scooter Libby to describe the contents of the consensus intelligence estimate a few days before it was officially declassified. So in the MSM, the liberals' false leaks are noble, while the administration's declassification of the report that shows them to be false, in response, is a scandal!

Seems to sum it all up neatly.

JM Hanes

Barney

"The guys with the nets will be along shortly."

LOL! You know it's troll day when the old smut meter starts registering multiple hits.

PeterUK

Syl,
Could be the man markg8 plays Igor to.

JM Hanes

Squiggler,

"Seems to sum it all up neatly."

Indeed, it does.

Specter

I wonder if Val had a hand in those intelligence reports that went into the NIE. Maybe her input caused the whole thing? LOL

Squiggler

Specter, I've been saying that for a long time. I think she and that snake she is married to are behind this whole deal, with a lot of encouragement from the Kerry Campaign.

Squiggler

I'm sorry, I made a mistake, the quote above is from Powerline, not Instapundit.

Rick Ballard

Mr Uk,

I don't know if that's Dearly Demented or not. The Koslandian Copperheads all run together after a while. I figure Soros must have finally cut loose with some dough lately - that or there's some semaphore system in Koslandia that signals that it's time for the Kosmaniacs to issue forth from their caves once again.

Tom will need to have the carpets cleaned soon.

kim

Actually that's pretty likely, Specter. Joe really didn't change his mind about it until nothing was found. That's why he's a coward, too.
=============================

colleen military mom

Rick
For Bush/Rove it's all about politics. Not policy.
If they spent time and thought on running the country instead of winning the pols, they would have known the outcome in Irag.

Wind Rider

I'm still curious how an authorized release of information (in this case, portions of the NIE), by the President (he can authorize that - it's one of those "presidenty" things) is reffered to far and wide as a "leak".

'authorized release of information' versus 'leak'.

Oh, that's right. Sexy sells (papers). Even though it's 'fake but inaccurate'.

Cecil Turner

Nope. He is complaining that the Administration released selective exculpatory portions and not portions tending to undermine the "message".

If he's in fact claiming that, he's lying. Because the NIE declassified in July 03 had the aluminum tubes qualifier in it, and the press conference it was released at had substantial discussion of precisely that point. But I don't think he really did, he just kinda implied it and encouraged you to leap to a faulty conclusion.

Squiggler

collen, think you have your Presidents confused. What makes the libs so mad is that Bush and company could care less about the polls.

Rick Ballard

Colleen,

They know both better than most have. If by "outcome in Iraq" you mean free elections by a free citizenry, I'm pretty sure they knew that before they cut Tommy Franks loose.

It sure as hell wasn't the prime objective or even the most important of the secondary objectives. Those won't completely be achieved until the opening of the 'Tommy Franks Joint Iraqi-American Desert Warfare Training Center' in al-Anbar and 'NAS Bush' at Um-Qasr. Those will be achieved before Bush hands off to the next Republican President in '09.

PeterUK

"For Bush/Rove it's all about politics."

Leaving aside that politicking is Rove's job, not running the country,Bush is embroiled in constant politicking simply because the Loyal Opposition has nothing better to do than create bogus political crises.Aided and abetted by the Igors of the MSM they have done nothing but turn a farce into a tragedy and back again.

topsecretk9

Bush is embroiled in constant politicking simply because the Loyal Opposition has nothing better to do than create bogus political crises.

As in devoid of any ideas.

Sue

It was Alan Foley, Plame's boss, that okayed the infamous 16 words in the SotU speech. 6 degrees of separation...

clarice

I really can't restrain my anger that these lies are recirculated with new headlines every few months and they still work.

Others can storm Teheran--I want to occupy the WH press office, throw out the idiots there and take over--Peter/TM/Cecil/Rick--strap on your armor--we're heading in!!!!!!!

JM Hanes

Ralph

"If in the case of "obstruction of justice," isn't there a burden on the government to state what justice was being obstructed? IF there was no underlying crime, how can there obstruction of justice?"

We're all mostly amateurs here (we're just amateurs with opinions!). Don't know if you've been back to check out the thread (or if you can even follow it with all the gratuitous snarking from left field today) but I'm thinking (see above) that the obstruction charge has turned into one of the "thorny issues" Fitzgerald would rather like to avoid having to address.

If pressed, Fitz might conceivably assert that multiple lies & perjuries constitute obstruction in and of themselves, i.e., if Libby is found guilty of more than one of the first four counts, he is automatically/necessarily guilty of the fifth count. I'm not sure how far that argument will fly, however, since it essentially means that anyone who pleads not guilty and is subsequently convicted of a crime would also be guilty of obstruction. Unless Fitz makes that argument though, I don't see how he can claim that the referral from the CIA is immaterial.

Sue

I can't figure out why Fitzgerald won't just lay the cards on the table about the referral. It is what it is. If she was NOC, the cat is out of the bag, remove the information that would reveal ongoing classified information and put the darn thing out there. It would certainly shut some of us up to see that she was indeed covert.

Squiggler

Clarice, I've got your back.

Bill in AZ

The kossucks issued from their cave because they were fooled by the blazing fake but inaccurate headlines all day long: Bush and Cheney at long last tied to outing sooper seekrit agent plame. Tough to watch all that pent up energy so eager to grasp at the tiniest, already shredded, thread of hope for fitzmas that never came... maybe, just maybe, fitzaclaus was just late.

PeterUK

Clarice,
There is nothing that a gibbet in the press club would not put right.

JM Hanes

Clarice

Hang on a minute! I'll suit up and go in with you!. We''ll have to start with an occupation of the Oval Office though, because the big problem is Bush. He won't delegate any real authority to anybody else to speak for him, and he won't give his official spokesman any damn information to work with. Every White House press gaggle is a spurned opportunity to sell/communicate a Team Bush message to the public.

As a result, the all too familiar pattern repeats itself over and over: Bush's numbers spiral downward till he finally stirs his stumps and hits the road. Unfortunately, I think even that's not working anymore because, nearly 5 years out, the public has just gotten bored with both the President and with the same-ole-same-ole routine. The Prez doesn't need new ideas, he needs new faces, or at least more than just his own.

Shoot, he doesn't even really need new faces, he just needs to let the guys he's got go out there and do some stumping for him -- and not just on Iraq. John Snow, for example, should be out there pimping the economy every night on any show that will book him, etc. I swear I think Christy Whitman could even have managed something as far fetched as selling him as the Environmental President, if Bush hadn't undercut her at every turn in a downright humliating fashion. So much for the vaunted Bush loyalty.

PeterUK

Sue,
You need to check whether or not val handed in her Oakleys.

maryrose

Squiggler:
Hope you feel better soon. Thank you for your accurate and comprehensive posts today. i enjoyed reading them.
AB:
I picture you as a 60's hippie; Am I right about that? I'm happy for the success of your children. I also worked my way through college. Coast Guard service is good. My brother was in the Air Force in Vietnam.
Politically though , we are polar opposites. Good luck getting your guy in the presidency in 08. Until they come up with a plan to fight the WOT they don,t have a chance. As for Kerry's call on Hardball to have a bunch of troops out by May15th and the rest at the end of the year-Hah He still doesn't realize it was crack-pot ideas like that which cost him the election. That and voting against armor and supplies for the troops. But we must remember he was a winter soldier more anti-war protester than anything else. He thought he could fool the people by reporting for doody but we saw right through that fake persona.Today on Hardball it was more hate speech. Once a loser...

maryrose

PeterUk; You have captured my feelings exactly. Bush doesn't have time for all this lefty nonsense. I agree clarice; someone has to shake up that communications shop at the WH and get the truth out. I am your loyal liege ready to take orders for engagement.

Squiggler

Clarice, thank you. I actually feel pretty good as long as I don't move too quickly or try to do something simple like sit or stand.

BTW, I first heard about some "cowardly LT" in 1969 when my husband came home from a year attached to the Mobile Riverine Force, Mekong Delta. I heard about him again in 1972. These were first hand accounts. Imagine my surprise to discover that the man who "reported for duty" was that same "cowardly LT" the guys were talking about back then.

Squiggler

Clarice, thank you. I actually feel pretty good as long as I don't move too quickly or try to do something simple like sit or stand.

BTW, I first heard about some "cowardly LT" in 1969 when my husband came home from a year attached to the Mobile Riverine Force, Mekong Delta. I heard about him again in 1972. These were first hand accounts. Imagine my surprise to discover that the man who "reported for duty" was that same "cowardly LT" the guys were talking about back then.

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

I remain unconvinced that additional effort would serve any purpose.

Yesterday and today are perfect examples, both here in comments and in the MSM's breathless take on a trifle offered up by the Fitzocrats. They pop open the box from Acme Political Strategy, Inc. (a subsidiary of the Arlie K. Evor Group) and put it into play as if they had never watched a Road Runner cartoon.

How much energy should be devoted to mortal combat with fools? Does Bush need the equivalent of a Lanny Davis or one of the other Clinton slimeballs on TV every afternoon? He's not a serial rapist and it's highly unlikely that he will ever go on TV and lie like a hand-tied Persian rug.

If the buffoons on t'other side ever offered up anything but 'Reps are evil - vote for me, I'm not a Rep' then I might stir myself. It ain't happenin' and there is absolutley no reason to believe that a party with the paucity of leadership evidenced by the Dems could make it happen if they knew what to do.

Bush is going to take one more pot come November - even if its two seats in both houses. The economy will see to that. My concern lies with taking out the mullahs in Tehran. That's the remaining card that must be played.

PeterUK

Aw Gee,Mr Ballard Sir,caint we's have a hangin'?

clarice

I hope you're right, Rick. Squiggler, it wasn't I who said all those nice things to you though I wish I had.
Peter--anyone else who's with me--a gibbet for the press club and then on to the press office.

I have patience with people who don't know the facts and want to know them, but listening to the same crappy lies the 1000 time makes my normally low blood pressure rise..

Anyway, I love the entire assault team.

colleen military mom

Posted by: Rick Ballard | April 06, 2006 at 04:52 PM
Amen

Barney Frank

Rick,

I must respecfully disagree. Sure people who pay attention know the truth, but how many more votes would he have had, how many more allies in congress would there be if the entire Bush communication effort didn't consist of a bunch of bumbling nincompoops with their mouths and heads full of rocks?

This is the worst WH I can ever remember for getting their message out. Helen Keller would be a step up as a press secretary.

Rick Ballard

"Aw Gee,Mr Ballard Sir,caint we's have a hangin'?"

Why yes, Mr Uk, yes, we can have a very nice hanging - actually a day long series of hangings.

They will commence at 7AM sharp EST on November 7, 2006 and will involve a number of people to whom the event will come as a great surprise. Arrangements are being made as we converse but precise locations will not be announced for some time. It would take away from the surprise.

Rick Ballard

Barney,

Lots and lots of people disagree and I would never have it otherwise. I really do understand that a lot more effort could be devoted to knocking down the dimwitted opposition. Then I ask myself - "Does the President not understand this - why he could pimp the polls and have another 15 points with practically no effort." And then I think of the Arkie Slimeball and I stop wishing he would do so.

It is a true shame that we continue to measure the Bush PR efforts by comparing them to Clinton's. Clinton dragged the Presidency into the mud and if Bush stooped to Clinton's tactics it would remain there. I do not want the Presidency to be treated as if it were an Arkansas County Commissioner's fiefdom. The office is simply too important to the fabric of our society - without any regard for who holds it. Nixon demeaned the office but Clinton's actions make Nixon appear a saint.

To me, the office counts, not the pol who occupies it. Bush has been a credit to the office and I honor him for that. I have no desire to see him descend to Bubba territory in order to achieve momentary popularity. He already belongs to the ages - and he damn well knows it.

Specter

You know, earlier someone from the left was making fun of me for bringing up the fact that as soon as it looks dim for Fitz's case we get a new article in MSM which revives the base, In some respects, even though it it true that NY Sun is more conservative, my observation was true.

But what the poster did not get was my attempt at parody over the left's contention that when Bush's number sink, another OBL tape is released. I just think the coincidence is funny.

BTW - according to Rassmussen Bush is up to 43%. Now if they would only concentrate on it....

MayBee

Thomas Sowell and Jim Geraghty both had excellent pieces this week about facts not mattering anymore. I see that too often.

Much of what passes for news these days is a skeleton of truth hung with red meat. This story is a prime example.

JMH- I share your thoughts about the obstruction charge. I don't see how that can be prosecuted without Libby being able to delve into how the investigation was done, much like Moussaui's defense team arguing that the FBI's own incompetence caused more damage than his refusal to cooperate.

Barney Frank

Rick,

Those aren't the only two options are they? I sure hope not.
Just because Clinton had a battalion of carnival barkers and pea and thimble men carrying his water, doesn't mean Bush has to employ limp dishrags to avoid the taint of Clintonism does it?

Surely there is some middle ground of effectively getting the truth out. Reagan was the great communicator but look at the team around him. They effectively got his message out without sinking to the level of hucksterism and character assasination ala Carville and his herd of lowing ungulates.

topsecretk9

Much of what passes for news these days is a skeleton of truth hung with red meat. This story is a prime example.

Geez, wasn't just last week we were treated to Rove cooperating with the investigation ongoing og Libby, then a day later Rove a moment away from indictment? And the left didn't even notice the paradox it proposed.

New day! Whole new set of play dough!

Rick Ballard

Barney,

I would never argue that there are only two options. I don't flinch from using a knife here, you know that. I also understand the desire for affirmative action against the other sides lies on the part of the President.

Then I look at the '98 election. And I look at 50 years of 'those mean evil Republicans' and the fact that it worked reasonably well - the Dems were on the way out in the '50's but they managed to hang on by painting the Reps in such a negative light that the dimwit - and the independent voter is as dim a wit as you will ever find - sided with their portrayal.

The US is a basically conservative country - any country that consistently produces a surplus will have a conservative nature. The political trick in utilizing that conservative bent is in not allowing the negative aspects of conservatism to overshadow the positive aspects. Don't ever let conservatism be cast as 'mean' in any sense because the polis loves an open hand.

That's what is happening now and it is evidence of a degree of knowledge that will allow conservatism - as much as the current Republican party is 'conservative' - to retain power. I'm neither happy nor am I sanguine about the compromises being made but I do recognize that holding power depends upon compromise - and depends greatly upon not letting the opposition play with symbols. Which is why DeLay had to go. Lightning rods lose their efficy after having been struck.

I'm interested in how Bush will behave after the November elections. I think that period will be very interesting because retaining the Presidency in '08 is very necessary in order to revamp certain institutions to conform to the will of the electorate.

MayBee

I think we are down to the shocking news now that Bush was making a case for war, and not laying out all of the arguments pro and con that passed his way. Not that a President making a case for what he believes is right should be news. The next shocking news is that Bush's people were actually sources for news stories. Last we heard, Bush apparently didn't talk to reporters and his admin what- never talked to them or something. I don't know.
These days, it is a scandal for the President to be a politician or to get his message out.

JM Hanes

Rick

"and the independent voter is as dim a wit as you will ever find"

Well excuuuuuse me while I take umbrage!

Rick Ballard

"while I take umbrage!

I knew I should have put a caveat moat around that. There are principled and discerning independents - but they aren't persuaded by the fodder put out by either party for the cattle.

JM Hanes

MayBee

"These days, it is a scandal for the President to be a politician or to get his message out."

Actually, I think it's more like it's a scandal just to be Bush (or defend him).

Do I recall you saying you were just back from Cambodia? If so, I meant to ask if you were in Siem Reap? I was there with my kids in January, and it was spectacular.

Barney Frank

Rick,

"I'm interested in how Bush will behave after the November elections. I think that period will be very interesting because retaining the Presidency in '08 is very necessary in order to revamp certain institutions to conform to the will of the electorate."

At least as important is that our enemies have essentially adopted a 'wait Bush out' strategy. They see that, whatever his shortcomings, he will not stop prosecuting some form of warfare against them. So they're banking on a wet noodle to follow Bush, therby winning politically what they can't win militarily.
Perhaps the 'General Giap' strategy would be closer to the mark.

JM Hanes

"I knew I should have put a caveat moat around that"

I'd have banked my own in smilies, but IIRC you're not an emoticon fan...OTOH, I rather like your subsequent moatage.

Jeff

You act as if Fitzgerald told you Bush authorized Libby to leak information about Plame.

Sue, now you've joined all too many commentators here who have no interest in accurately characterizing the positions of those who disagree with them.

I'm with whoever said this earlier...what does the NIE and Plame have to do with each other? The same as Niger and aluminum tubes?

Of course, the NIE and Plame per se didn't necessarily have that much to do with each other. The new information we've learned brings them together because Libby's efforts to disclose the NIE was motivated at least in part by the perceived need to respond to and discredit Wilson, and Libby's disclosure of Plame's CIA affiliation was also designed to discredit Wilson. They happened in the same critical conversation, as Fitzgerald calls it, with Miller on July 8. Furthermore, it appears more generally that the two issues were intertwined during the whole week of July 7-14 and perhaps beyond.

Similarly with Niger and the aluminum tubes. These have to do with each other because they were two key pieces of evidence cited for the central, nuclear case for going to war with Iraq - and the issue of dealing with the political fallout from the weakness of that evidence after the fact brought them together, accoding to one narrative recently published. Niger and aluminum tubes per se, of course, don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.

maryrose

I'm hopeful for a good result in 08. People know we need a president with strength of character and a strong hand in fighting the War on Terror. How strange to hear Howie Dean diss Bush yesterday for speaking the truth about how the next president will have to carry on with the WOT and the situation in Iraq. Dean acted like he was insulted by that true fact. Dems clueless once again and Kerry today completely missing the boat and swiftly compromising himself in his positions. Old habits die hard with him i guess.

Squiggler

I lost my connection for an hour so trying to catch up. Jeff, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Libby would or anyone else would give a rat's patooty about Valerie Flame. To me, that whole argument smacks of high school clique behavior and I think the President, the VP, and the those involved in important stuff have better things to do with their time. Why would they need to do anything about Plame, even if they did know, since they had concrete evidence that Joe Wilson was a lying jerk out dancing at the Kerry strings. It makes no sense to adults who process information in a rational manner.

Sue

Jeff,

At the risk of being chastized for misstating what you are saying, are you saying they don't have anything to do with each other but it makes for a good story? That Bush, et al, should have just allowed Wilson to continue to run around town telling a whopper? That Bush, et al, should not have pushed back against Wilson at all? You realize it wasn't just Wilson who was talking don't you? There were all kinds of 'anonymous' sources being quoted all over the place. Why not leak information about their spouses to discredit them? If they could learn who Wilson was, don't you think they could also, by process of elimination, who knew what, figure out the 'anonymous' sources were? Wilson was not the lone voice in the wilderness during this momentous time in question.

I'm still going with the Plame was not classified. Until Fitz stops fighting the release of infomration about what is supposedly a well known fact by now.

clarice

Squiggler, Are you in the habit of asking questions and then answering them in the same post? *wink*

Squiggler

And one more thing, you lefties are constantly trying to make every motive of the President as political because you don't understand governing and what command is all about. When Wilson told all his lies, the WH answered by requesting the Pres declassify the sections of the NIE that showed Wilson's total inaccurate claims. Does it occur to you that there are reasons far more important than political at stake in such a decision, not the least of which was the commander-in-chief making sure we were not giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States. Your side wants us to lay out every move, all our intelligence, all our methods, and our battle plans so you can carp and cry all the while our enemies are laughing and those in responsibility are doing the best they can to fight a 2 front war where the one side aiding the enemy is a bunch of children on the far left and their MSM friends who have never taken responsibility for anything in their sad miserable lives.

Nitro Nora

This comment section rocks!!! I learn so much here- what ex parte and in camera are, the strategies of the prosecution vs the defense (thanks Sue), what the defense is entitled to know, what Fitz is legally entitled to be so secretive about---all these things are the critical details of due process. Man, GOOD STUFF! My hat is off to all the constructive commenters here. I love the internet! It's enabled this sort of freewheeling dialogue as never before in history.

But. Why is it that as soon as a leftist/bushhater/dem or whatever they call themselves, joins one of these discussions, he/she does nothing but mock the people and the precious concepts under discussion? It's obvious that this is about the minutea of the Libby prosecution. What the heck do these trolls think their irrelevent interruptions accomplish?

skinnydog

"Of course, the NIE and Plame per se didn't necessarily have that much to do with each other."

Thanks, Jeff for at least acknowledging this. Although I'd characterize it more strongly than you.

The fact is, on this board and all over the news today the reporting has been that Bush authorized Libby to leak Plame's name when that simply wasn't true at all. Also, we get so cuaght up in the Wilson/Plame angle when the story was much broader in the summer of 2003. The media was coming at the administration from a lot of different angles about the prewar intelligence and there was a lot of pressure for the administration to reveal more information. And they had a right if not a duty to set the record straight as I would describe it. Sure, Joe was part of it, but there was much more to declassifying the NIE that Joe Wilson.

Rick Ballard

"Your side wants us to lay out every move, all our intelligence, all our methods, and our battle plans so you can carp and cry all the while our enemies are laughing and those in responsibility are doing the best they can to fight a 2 front war where the one side aiding the enemy is a bunch of children on the far left and their MSM friends who have never taken responsibility for anything in their sad miserable lives."

Well, Squiggler, if you had enlisted on the other side - what would you do? It's not as if we're talking about people who will ever be entrusted with governance again. This is the Vichy, the appeasers, the folks who betrayed the South Vietnamese. They don't change - ever.

Jeff

are you saying they don't have anything to do with each other but it makes for a good story?

No. When the NIE was written up in October 2002 it didn't have anything per se to do with Plame (except insofar as she may have had a role in generating or analyzing some of the intelligence behind the NIE). But in the week of July 6-14 and beyond, the issue of disclosing info from the NIE and disclosing info about Plame evidently became intertwined as two parts of OVP's strategy to respond to and discredit Wilson. In other words, because of Wilson's criticism of the Bush administration, and because of the response, those two issues became two parts of the administration's effort to rejustify the war in the face of serious criticism.

And they had a right if not a duty to set the record straight as I would describe it.

If you really believe that, then you should be very upset that Libby lied about the content of the NIE and its relation to the Bush rationale for war.

It makes no sense to adults who process information in a rational manner.

So true, so true. But really, Squiggler, you are just a sanctimonious adolescent with your fantasies about your two-front war and your evident fear of our real enemies.

sid

What is the context of Fritz’s statement in his filing re: Bush told Cheney who told Libby to disclose info? Was it germane to a significant legal argument, or not? Could he have just slipped this into his filing knowing that he would set the MSM and Sorosphere afire? And take some heat (Clarice’s articles) off his mishandling of the case?

Squiggler

I don't think I'm quite ready for my second childhood even though I am a grandmother. I fear people who would do nothing and who think appeasing evil is doing something. I fear people who think that our military and the American way of life is the enemy and who think it their duty to play cuddly with the Saddams and the Talibans of this world.

Cecil Turner

But in the week of July 6-14 and beyond, the issue of disclosing info from the NIE and disclosing info about Plame evidently became intertwined as two parts of OVP's strategy to respond to and discredit Wilson.

And how exactly do you explain UGO beating them to the punch? Time warp again? Rovian mind beams? Dude, after stuff like this, I'd avoid any permutation of "fantasy" for at least a couple of posts.

Specter

Jeff...go to bed. The later it gets the less sense you make.

Jeff

Specter, you are making me yawn.

Cecil, I wasn't aware there was any issue with the NIE back in June when Armitage was blowing Plame's cover with Woodward. I also wasn't aware that any given fact can play one and only one role in the world for all eternity.

Jeff

Squiggler - So much fear, so many strawmen, so many delusions, so little time.

JM Hanes

Nitro

"What the heck do these trolls think their irrelevent interruptions accomplish?"

I certainly share your enthusiasm for so much of what the web has wrought, but it does attract all types. One of the main pleasures of trolling I suspect, is a jejune illicit thrill of being able to ladle out insults and use foul langugage without the usual risk of real consequences. It's a form of virtual chest beating that most of those indulging probably wouldn't have the guts to do in person.

Cecil Turner

I also wasn't aware that any given fact can play one and only one role in the world for all eternity.

If you have a connection that isn't faith-based, trot it out. Otherwise . . .

TM

Well, I am stumped - somewhere, I posted on that bit that Sue excerpted - "During this time, while the President was unaware of the role that the Vice President’s Chief of Staff and National Security Adviser had in fact played in disclosing Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment" - but I can't find it now. I must have swept it away in the course of revising or relocating some section.

But thanks to Jeff for solving the puzzle - Libby was Cheney's NSA, as is mentioned in the indictment.

And thanks to Sue for pointing out that this means somewhat the opposite of Sullivan's "Bush Nailed".

clarice

pp.26-27 TM During this time, while the President was unaware of the role that the Vice President’s Chief
of Staff and National Security Adviser had in fact played in disclosing Ms. Wilson’s CIA
employment, defendant implored White House officials to have a public statement issued
exonerating him. When his initial efforts met with no success, defendant sought the assistance of the

willem

There was a very interesting comment above about Plame possibly having a hand in the development of the NIE.

I wonder what hand she had in Wilson's ability to tip the scales so he would not have to sign the standard non disclosure agreement as a requirement of the contract? Was there a competing agenda which sought to protect Wilson from otherwise having to sign a standard non disclosure agreement? Was an unmuzzled Wilson part of a renegade agenda to sabotage the President, protect French and Russian interests, or hitch a ride on the Kerry campaign?

It seems remarkably odd Wilson would be exempt from a standard confidentiality requirement. I have yet to understand just how Wilson came to own and commercially traffic in, and offer for sale, such information paid for by the USG arising from this gnarly Niger julip junket. Perhaps his book is not actually "selling" such information he was paid by our government to collect. But, it seems such information paid for may indeed comprise a form of property, and, if our government paid for it, it would seem they bought it and would therefore own it.

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Wilson/Plame