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April 14, 2006

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Huggy

You do seem a little harsh. I'm more concerned about the strippers kids. Are they being taken care of by one or both sets of grandparents?
I have more trouble with her being a parent than the shinanigans of a bunch of out of control young men. Poor kids. And I don't mean their socioeconomic situation. Why aren't people helping her kids!!!

rob

I admit I haven't followed this very closly, but lacross is WAY rougher than basketball, and I would say more rough than football, but not as rough as hockey (where the true studs play)

noah

But they are apparently non-raping assholes...how else to account for their DNA not matching foreign DNA found on the stripper? Occam's razor: she was raped or had sex before she went to the party.

mariner

I'd like to see ALL intercollegiate sports disbanded. Universities should be about getting educated, not about sports.

That said, this is an anti-white racist witch hunt, with liberal doses of class warfare thrown in.

I'm disgusted that anonymous women are allowed to accuse men of rape. If the men can be named, the women should be named as well.

mariner

I'd like to see ALL intercollegiate sports disbanded. Universities should be about getting educated, not about sports.

That said, this is an anti-white racist witch hunt, with liberal doses of class warfare thrown in.

I'm disgusted that anonymous women are allowed to accuse men of rape. If the men can be named, the women should be named as well.

mariner

I'd like to see ALL intercollegiate sports disbanded. Universities should be about getting educated, not about sports.

That said, this is an anti-white racist witch hunt, with liberal doses of class warfare thrown in.

I'm disgusted that anonymous women are allowed to accuse men of rape. If the men can be named, the women should be named as well.

Les Nessman

tm:
".. only be able to be accepted elsewhere after demonstrating a bit more cooperation with the authorities."

How exactly did they 'not cooperate' with authorites?

If you were accused of rape, would you 'cooperate' with authorites, or would you follow your lawyers advice? Do the accused have a right to keep their mouth shut or do these particular accused have less rights than every other citizen?


aquaman

mariner-
Anonymous to who? Not to the police, or to anyone relevant to the investigation. I assume you mean to the press. Your principle, I take it, is that anyone claiming to be a crime victim should be subject to having their name published in the newspaper. Or does it only apply to rape accusers?
Sounds like a good strategy for insuring that crimes are reported.

cfw

"Tell me what to think about the Duke lacrosse debacle." Remember the Michael Jackson case - false accusations do happen. If it were your kid on the team, you would tell him to talk to DA Nifong without a lawyer in the room, ignoring advice of counsel? This is not a traffic ticket we are discussing, eh?

"My two cents - I would have have shut the 'program' down after reading Tom Wolfe's 'I Am Charlotte Simmons'." No lax means no drinking and sex at college? Right, tell me another one.

Those small sport folks work their tails off for no money, or prospects for money. If they did not spend 4 hours a day at lax, they would spend 4 hours a day hanging out at the dorm, getting into trouble anyway.

"And in my current mode (Knock their teeth out, then kick 'em in the stomach for mumbling) I would still shut it down - the University of San Francisco did this with their basketball program, as I recall." You want to send a kid to USF and not Duke?

Per Review.com USF suffers "from a dearth of straight men. Explains one woman, 'There's a high female to male ratio in the freshmen class, and we've figured it's much, much higher when you factor out the guys in relationships and gay guys.'"

No small sports does not mean no misconduct - just drinking, sex, drugs, etc., with less fitness.

"Yes, there are due process issues here [such as probable absolute innocence], so that may be one of many reasons I am not in charge of Duke."

Your credibility with me went way down based on inability to see a flaky rape case.

"But after I shut the program down, the kids who tried to transfer out would (I'll wager) only be able to be accepted elsewhere after demonstrating a bit more cooperation with the authorities."

Where is the non-cooperation with authorities? DA Nifong chose not to ask for a lineup. He chose not to ask for a preliminary hearing. He received no opposition that I know of to interviews with counsel present. He did limited dorm searches. No one refused consent to dorm searches, that I know of.

He is what we used to hear called in the JAG Corps a "limp dick" prosecutor, hoping for something to fall in his lap. He does not use the tools available to him and yet he says the defense has played games?

I do not see any chance he will get any confessions, nor do I see that any lax player has any sexual assualt to confess. Underage drinking? Let the school handle that.

"Well - lacrosse is just affirmative action for middle class white kids who don't have the guts to mix it up with the minorities and play football or basketball - we can let that role be filled by the golf and swimming teams."

Not sure there is much affirmative action involved. The lax players pay what they can afford in tuition, I expect, and rarely get special treatment in admissions, compared to blacks or cello players or what have you. Making it a race or women's rights issue is illogical - it is your basic made up sex assault charge, as far as I can tell. Would be the same incredible tale if it was man vs. man, or white accuser vs. black accused.

Time to get a grip, Tom, or move on to the things you have researched in detail.

trentk269

As someone that has repeatedly been falsely accused of child abuse/molstation by a vindictive nutjob ex-wife, I'm with the players. If this gal could identify anyone, they already would've been charged. The fact that the DA was waiting for the DNA to come back is indicative of this.

The poitics of sexual assault in this country is a national disgrace, and usually costs an innocent man several thousand dollars just to stay out of jail. And, by the way, the stigma sticks to you- one never really gets out from under it. No matter how full of bullcrasp the accuser might be, there is always someone (usually some brave soul hiding behind a crowd or a computer) pointing and yelling "guilty!"

Forbes

Umm, what did these guys do? They had a party, had some booze, and had some girls over.

OK, two outta three. The girls were strippers. Unfortunately that's an indicator of too much cash burning a hole in their pockets. That's one problem I never had in college.

One's first up-close and personal experience with strippers would usually be after college at a buddy's bachelor party--or some such event.

And yeah, they're guilty of bad judgement, but they are college students--barely out of their teens. Mistakes made and lessons learned describes the process of growing up.

I have no idea what the Univesity/team policies are regarding the consumption of alcohol, but I would assume strict adherence to the disciplinary policies as they exist would be the proper course of action--and not some attempt to make Hester Prynne-like examples out of the players (which does seem to be the case--and TM implicitly suggests).

The entire incident has been blown out of all proportions, as the allegations of rape appear to be baseless. And while the racial overtones have been inflamed by Jesse Jackson--Jackson, himself, in a parody-like manner, has become a reverse indicator of the seriousness of any such allegations due to a string of dubious incidents he's waded into.

And as an interesting sociological point, white men do not rape black women--notwithstanding the caveat of the exception that proves the rule, and that statistics don't prove anything, see “Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2003 Statistical Tables” here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus03.pdf (the relevant page is 55).

windansea

I with cfw on this one...really don't care if you like lacrosse but painting it as a wimpy all white sport is just wrong....I have a lot of friends who played it in college and they are all native americans

I am also kinda shocked you thinks its just dandy that the team was canceled...it's looking like this is a BS case to me

windansea

PS TM

the best paid athelete in the world is a golfer named Tiger....he's black and Thai

tsk tsk!

Cecil Turner

I'd like to see ALL intercollegiate sports disbanded. Universities should be about getting educated, not about sports.

I think participating in a sport is educational (at least in the "whole person" concept), but most collegiate athletics don't really add in that sense (and Lacrosse seems to be one of the least objectionable).

And I'm not sure what to think of this whole Duke thing. Sports teams parties involving strippers are obviously irresponsible, and I have no problems with the University decision to fire the coach and suspend the season. I'm not too sure what to make of the accusations, but it looks like a scuffle over the strip show gone bad between drunks. The rape allegations are hard to credit, though assault looks possible and perhaps likely. If so, the punishment already suffered is appropriate.

Al

"the Duke lacrosse debacle"

Um, what's the debacle again? I mean other than Tawana Brawley's apparently false accusation? Is the debacle that the prosecutor hasn't yet dropped the case - apparently because he thinks dropping it would hurt his reelection chances?

windansea

Sports teams parties involving strippers are obviously irresponsible

oh please!!

Billy Bob

Trivia Question: Who was the best Lacrosse player of all time? A black man named Jim Brown, University of Syracuse. Also played some football there and in the pros, if I remember correctly.

Forbes

BB: Good call on Jim Brown (though probably no longer the best player of all time as lacrosse has greatly progressed in 50 years) as he probably dominated lacrosse as no one has else since (at 6'3" and 220 lbs in 1950s lacrosse)--and just a nit: it's Syracuse University.

Cheers

vnjagvet

BB beat me to it about Jim Brown.

Also note that la crosse is one of the most physically demanding of all college sports. In the interests of full disclosure, I never played la crosse, but my cousin played for Navy during Jim Brown's career.

As far as the Duke case is concerned, it has a lot of emotional hooks: black vs. white, town vs. gown, privilege vs. lack of privilege, rape victim vs. rape perpetrator(s), DA running for political office vs. smart a** college boys who "did something", and so forth.

Plenty enough to get worked up over.

The problem is that there are few facts that have been pinned down yet.

More grist for the JOM mill???

Terrye

I am with Tim on this. We don't know what happened or did not happen, but these guys had a bad rep to begin with. I was watching ESPN one morning {Mike and Mike} and they came on, told folks to tell the kids to leave the room and then read an email sent by one of these guys to a friend in which he said something about 'killing the bitches' when they showed up for the party. Why do people put stupid stuff like that in an email? Moron.

People are saying the woman was drunk and all that but the guys were too, they were in the habit of being rough and they used fake names to get the girls to come over. This was not a completely isolated incident.

At the very least they put themselves in a situation where charges like this could be made against them. A lot of people seem to think that if women place themselves in that kind of situation they deserve whatever they get.

As for the DNA, I dunno. I find the wording of the statement strange. Was someone else's DNA found or was no DNA found?

Appalled Moderate

TM:

You might be falling prey to the phenomenon described here. Lacrosse is a pretty rough sport (like polo) favored by rich people.

I think the da on this case deserves to have clarice on his case...

Barry  Dauphin

TM

Lacrosse was invented by Native Americans and is a very difficult and rough sport. "Affirmative action" for rich whites? Are you an NCAA hockey fan or swimming fan or gymnastics fan by any chance or do these sports also fit the affirmative action idea?

BTW although it's been a long time since he played, there is still a good case to be made for Jim Brown being the greatest lacrosse player ever. When I was at Syracuse and they were regularly in the lacrosse final four, the coaches still thought Brown was the best.

noah

Terrye...reportedly no match between the boys DNA and ? Its true that I have not seen a report that foreign DNA was found on the girl but if not why did the DA say the tests would be dispositive? Could be there is a lot we don't know. But I suspect the DA would have trouble getting a conviction without DNA evidence, since there is a lot of evidence that the woman was severely inebriated so her identification of her alleged assailants may not be worth much.

Lew Clark

I have played lacrosse. Still working hard to be a rich white guy. Lacrosse is soccer with sticks to beat each other senseless. The Indians didn't care if they scored any points, the winner was the one who killed more of the opposing team. High death rates are always a surefire indicator of "sissy sports".
Some members of the Duke Lacrosse team are jerks. Last I heard, you don't get a rape conviction for being a jerk, if you didn't rape someone. And if your a high profile Democrat jerk, you can rape someone and never get charged!

mariner

aquaman,

I'm saying what's sauce for the gander is^^should be sauce for the goose.

If the names of the accused can be plastered all over the news the names of the accusers should be as well.

As things stand these boys are being tried, found guilty, and figuratively hanged in the press before any charges have been filed.

This is a disgrace in a country that claims to believe in "due process of law" and "innocent until proven guilty".

Unfortunately all those high-sounding principles go right out the window if men are being accused by women of sexual misconduct.

This is even worse when according to at least two studies I've seen, over a third of rape accusations are false. Not "unproven". False.

(Sorry for the repeat posts.)

MayBee

A lot of people have covered what I'd say. Many parents at our school are trying to get Lacrosse going. The teams we'd play would all be Japanese- it's getting to be very popular here.

Do we have to dredge up all the sexual/party misconduct allegations of the various collegiate sports to get a discussion going here?

What truly bothers me here is the racial aspect that's been thrown into the case and possibly forcing the DA's hand toward prosecution. Yes, he should continue investigating, but it seems to me the boys are already being punished.

The boys are getting off light because they are white boys that raped a black girl.
Yet, Kobe Bryant was unfairly prosecuted because he was a black man that dared to touch a white girl.

Someone upthread said something about the politics of sexual charges that was brilliant. It is complicated when the parties are of different races, and the community wants it to represent a larger issue.

capitano

cfw --

I'm with you all the way, but don't be too hard on TM -- I think it was actually Jeralyn Merritt' post, using TM's pilfered log-in. No other way to explain the muddled thinking.

mariner

MayBee,

The boys are getting off light because they are white boys that raped a black girl.

And you know this HOW?

Were you there? Did you see them do it? Do you have any evidence of your own that the event even took place? Are you privy to proof the rest of us haven't seen?

Are you willing to pillory these boys because they're white and they were accused by a black girl? Or just because they're boys?

maryrose

If they don't have definitive proof and a proper identification isn't able to be made then the D.A. doesn't have much of a case. Sending threatening e-mails should be dealt with by the police and I believe that young man has already been expelled. Jesse Jackson should stay out; it is none of his business. The D.A. should not get elected to office on the back of some college kid's behavior.

Sue

My goodness. Is Tom into the hootch?

Specter

I can't add much that hasn't already been said. Accusations of sexual misconduct are out of control in our country - and as has been pointed out in other threads - even the innocent sometimes take deals rather than fight due to the expense. A true defense against "he said - she said" allegations can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. People are out of control on the whole issue. Don't get me wrong - sexual assault does happen sometimes. But people use false allegations as a revenge tool. Drunk drivers kill and injure people more than sexual offenders and have a much, much higer rate of recidivism. But we don't convict them in the newspapers. And they get off easier.

DA's pursue this type of investigation in spite of evidence because they will get pounded politically if they seem to be "easy on offenders." It's wrong. If there is no evidence there should be no charges. Of course then we have Fitz....

I read a report that the girl was passed out drunk when the police arrived. Anybody else see that?

Columbo

I have a feeling that Tom M. is married to a drunk worthless ho. Must hurt.

Specter

Watch it columbo.....don't be rude

MayBee

Mariner-
I should have been more clear (it would have been a first). I was repeating what Those Who Cry Racism have said, not my own personal opinion.

chris

Uh, I played LAX and can assure you that rapes, house parties with strippers were not part of the program. Trivia: Jim Brown was so dominant that they changed the rules establishing a minimum length for the stick. He used a very short one, tucked it in and just smashed over the opposing players. A onger stick made it more difficult to cover the ball but he still dominated.

Hopefully, our host was being funny or is just in a foul mood. I am amazed that more people haven't commented more about "I Am Charlotte Simmons." Wolfe captures this whole scene quite well. Many who have speculated about which campus is represented by Dupont U (Wolfe says it is an amalgram (?) of sevral think it is most like Duke. I agree with that choice.

What shines through in the novel is the level of vulgarity and the lack of education that has become the norm at our, so-called, elite universities.

Daddy

TM,
Me being a UNC grad, I can certainly empathize with your hostility toward DUKE, especially as I recall your saying your Alma Mater didn't make it to the NCAA basketball round of 64. Are you now saying your guys likewise suck at Lacrosse?

Cecil Turner

I read a report that the girl was passed out drunk when the police arrived. Anybody else see that?

Yes, it's in the "between drunks" link I posted above. And I've read elsewhere (e.g., LaShawn Barber's) the dispute was over a rowdy crowd unhappy with the drunk girl's stripping. However, she left some fingernails and cash at the scene, so something must've happened.

Regardless, when you have a rowdy party with strippers and college kids (some of whom I'm assuming were underage), there's liable to be some reaction if anything happens. And if the Duke administration wants to discipline the team (or individuals), they don't have much recourse. Based on what I've seen, the criminal charges are dubious . . . but the lost season is perfectly appropriate.

MayBee

whoa columbo. Not cool.

Reminds me of someone else recently referred to as Columbo.

topsecretk9

I have no sympathy for people who falsely accuse...and in this case particularly because the accusation was one to be believed.

I don't care what crumbs the guys are day to day, or what race, accusing others of rape is inexplicable. Children today are raised with zip discipline so therefore no boundaries, and I am not just talking about boys behaving badly...this has shades of the finger lady at Wendy's.

False accusations of sexual crimes hurt and destroy -- all you need is to accuse. And I hope that African Americans would/will be acutely sensitive to false accusations...since they are disproportionately and routinely false accused or suspected.

Specter

CT,

I might agree with that if it was simply against the team with regards to the partying. But it seems that it was in reaction to the charges that the season was cancelled. If that is the case, it was not right.

I'd also like to point out that when I went to school the Basketball and Football teams (Basketball ended up NCAA champs - football was a lost cause) they were the ones who sponsored the rowdy, crazy parties. I'd be willing to be that has not changed which gives us the question of whether or not the standards are being evenly applied.

I'd hate to think that the sanctions were due to the idea that the school might lose donations over this....

PaulV

What is the difference between blaming the team for a crude but legal activity of hiring a stripper and they were in wrong place at the wrong time and only have themselves to blame for a false accusation and blaming a woman who was assualted and rape for being in wrong place at wrong time. Being arrested and threatened with hard time in stir is lessor but comparable to being sexually assualted, with many men, guilty and innocent, being sexauly assualed behind bars,

maryrose

I also questioned why the season was cancelled. Were all the players at the party? They seemed to put the guilty label on the young men rather quickly.

Terrye

My point is if these guys had been behaving themselves instead of lying about who they were, threatening people, getting drunk and rowdy and out of control they might not be in this position. And the girl might not be lying, she might just not really remember or know what happened.

When I was in college long... long ago, I went to a frat party and was assaulted. I always thought someone put something in my drink. I woke up beat up and I knew I had been "hurt", but the night was just a scary blur. Of course the guys at the party got with it, and that was not the only time either. I am just saying that sometimes the combination of brats and booze can be destructive.

Specter

Of course you are right Terrye - that kind of conduct cannot be condoned. The old "boys will be boys" addage just does not cut it. What I was trying to get at with CT was that if we are going to punish one team for it, we should punish them all. Let's start with the basketball team. LOL

maryrose

Specter:
That Sooo isn't ever going to happen!

Specter

I know...the b-ball program brings in too much money...

Charlie (Colorado)

Specter, as a Duke grad myself, I'd say you hit the nail on the big flat place on top. The odds are very good that the President of Duke got a couple calls, either from big current donors or from parent who he thought were going to be donors, and decided to nip things right away.

As to the lacrosse players, there are a couple of other points here: first, it was a party at a house rented by several team members off campus. Whatever happened, it wasn't on Duke's campus, it was a couple blocks away. If there was underage drinking (horrors!) that's for the Durham Police to deal with. Second, the email was written after the incident; stupid and disgusting it might be but it's not evidence of anything about the incident except that someone was really really angry just a couple hours later. And third, Terrye, you know I love you, but we've got a situation here where someone with a pretty questionable record (stealing taxi cabs, assaults) made a a not very credible claim (no DNA, no mention of any physical evidence on any of the lacrosse players) under pretty peculiar circumstances (911 call by someone else, passed out drunk just minutes later.) I realize you've got personal history tied up here, but given all those things, don't you think we might want to remember "innocent until proven guilty", even if they are a bunch of rich white boys?

larwyn

terrye,
That email was sent AFTER THE RAPE CHARGE HAD BEEN MADE.
Once that was made clear, it appeared to me to be an expression of 'RAGE" on the part of 41.

On the $$$$ issue - well there were over 40 guys in attendance and the fee was a $100.00 - nothing that would break a college students budget @ ~2.50 each.
Maybe if they were really RICH WHITE BOYS, maybe they would have been able to afford to contract with a "gentleman's escort service", at $25.00 each that would have been $1,000.00. Imagine a real professional would have shown up and not already battered and drunk.

On the "small sport" issue:
my grandson's at one of the elite schools, he's there on meritorious scholastic scholarships and generous financial aid. He plays on the intramural Rugby team. It's a great experience - they play the other ivies and he went to Argentina over semester break with the team. It's not a frat type situation and he doesn't live with the jocks.

Crap! The LEFT is doing everything possible to take the boy out of our boys {filling them with Ritalin/taking away any contact activity} and thereby taking the man out of our men.
I am thrilled that he is out there in the mud, getting scraps and muscle pulls and having the joy of a shower when you are really tired and filthy!
You're wrong on the small sport thing, TM.

Jane

"But they are apparently non-raping assholes..."

At this point, that comment sort of nails it. My take is that they treated the woman badly, as nasty, arrogant people do, and she sought revenge, as nasty, pissed-off people do.

Her's is the bigger crime if no rape is proven.

Cecil Turner

Whatever happened, it wasn't on Duke's campus, it was a couple blocks away.

My understanding was that it was in Duke University housing. Okay, a quick google suggests Duke is sort of the landlord in this case:

Police have been called to the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. four times since September, according to police records. The house is one of 15 properties the university bought in February to address neighborhood complaints. The university plans to sell the dwellings to quieter homeowners who agree not to rent them out.
But even if it wasn't, there is little doubt the University has the right (and duty) to police its own programs. And reading this little snippet, I'm not surprised the University is losing patience:
In the past three years, 15 of the 47 current members of the team have been arrested for minor charges like holding an open beer in public.
[I suspect they mean "cited" as opposed to "arrested"]
but it's not evidence of anything about the incident except that someone was really really angry just a couple hours later [. . .] no DNA, no mention of any physical evidence on any of the lacrosse players . . .

The evidence suggests she didn't just make it up later, since the following was found in the residence's bathroom:

According to the police report, they found some evidence that sounds incriminating, including five fake fingernails, the woman's makeup bag and ID, and $160 in cash.
Again, sounds like a "scuffle" is the most likely answer. And having rather a lot of experience handling this sort of thing in the military, the usual answer there would be to threaten 'em all with non-judicial punishment (and point out the mere presence of underage drinkers made 'em all guilty), figure out who the ringleaders are (and actually deliver on the NJP threat to them), and find some interesting additional duty for the rest (por encourager les autres). In this case, absent any new evidence suggesting actual rape, the punishment levied by the University seems appropriate and hopefully will teach these young lads a valuable life lesson. Treating them like innocents will just get you more of the same.

kim

I get the feeling Columbo's feelings are as self-destructive as a terminal dipsomaniac.
==================================

Specter

well...unlike the real columbo he didn't come back for just "one more thing." I guess we can be thankful.

noah

TM...this has to set the record for your most lame post!

noah

Actually until now I never regarded any of your posts as lame.

Specter

TM,

Not lame, but one that many people will not wish to take sides on.

There has been constant MSM hype and propaganda over the years saying that sex offenses are the worst and that they have the highest rate or recidivism. And unfortunately there have been some very horrible examples that make the news. In addition you have shows like Law & Order (especially SVU) that continue to plaster the stereotype into people's unconscious minds. The end result of all this is that most people believe that if someone is accused, they must be guilty.

Unfortunately nothing could be further from the truth. Add to that that many studies (including one that correlated evidence from 61 other studies) show that the recidivism rate is lower than for most other crimes. It is just that so many people have been programmed to believe the worst.....

Specter

clarification - not "unfortunately" that those cases made the news - "unfortunately" that they happened and people were hurt....

kim

Booze is bad, jocks and whores can be bad; I'm in love with a stripper.
================================

abe

TM, perhaps you better stay clear of sporting posts. The Mets have not lost a game since your silly rant. As a Rugby player I can assure you your "drop the padding" comment is off the mark. Watch a game, there is a lot to enjoy. Where will you stand on the forced compliance with Nifong when the stripper/escort drops her accusations? And she will, as is she has ID'd a player who was not present as a rapist. They may well be assholes, but they are not rapists. Strange that you treat a claim with no factually backing so credibly. Must be a Yankee thing.

cfw

Let's remember why sports like lax got started - train men (and now also women) for future battle.

If your kid ended up in a foxhole in Iran or Iraq or Korea or Taiwan, would you want him (or her) led by a lax player from Duke? Your son (or daughter) might then have better odds for success than if the leader had no team sport experience, yes?

The point is we have used folks like the Duke lax players as leaders and organizers in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq. We will likely need that sort of team-athlete/citizen again, until war becomes obsolete.

When we have no war needs, we use folks like the Duke lax team members at places like ExxonMobil, GE, Toyota, Nissan and GE, where folks with a nack for teamwork and managing large numbers of "direct reports" can make a huge impact.

Hence, the support we see for lax and other team sports (including helmet sports) at places like Duke looks less than completely irrational.

Rick Ballard

"I'm in love with a stripper."

Midget variety, I would imagine.

kim

Wasn't the Battle of Britain won on the playing fields of Eton? Or was that Agincourt?
==================================

Larry

I've played 'em all. Lacrosse aint for wimps. If you ever got hit by that damned ball thrown with aid of the cross at 100+ mph, you'd agree. The guy with the ball is fair game. You get to whack him with a big stick! Pads are minimal, while violent contact is potentially the same as football. Think about this: Jim Brown was an All-American lacrosse player.

There is also a healthy aspect to any sport (especially team sport) that teaches life lessons beyond just keeping kids from getting into idle mischief. Conditioning, discipline, teamwork and camaraderie to name a few. Every young person who is physically able should have the experience.

"On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of victory." Winston Churchill

clarice

Churchill might have been right but personally I detest playing team sports, and I cannot for the life of me imagine Churchill playing them except under extreme duress.

kim

I half bet he played polo in S. Africa.
======================

Larry

I credit my sports experience as a major factor in my success as a warrior. I was top gun out of about 250 pilots, in combat, in a four squadron fighter wing. I omitted aggressiveness as a life lesson, above.

mariner

"The battle of Waterloo was won on the playing-fields of Eton." -- Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

But maybe not; here is another view.

cfw


"Churchill might have been right but personally I detest playing team sports, and I cannot for the life of me imagine Churchill playing them except under extreme duress."

Churchill loved sports and almost killed himself playing "war." Jumped off a bridge to avoid getting "captured." See Manchester's book re Churchill.

C did not well academically at Harrow.

Barely got in to Sandhurst. Rode horses well at Sandhurst. Played polo in India I believe. Nutty as a lax player, from a personal safety perspective, in N. India, S. Africa, Khartoum, WWI.

kim

Tres interesant. However Agincourt was clearly team sport, the tradition persists at Eton and other venue. Yet in the fog are old forgotten, far off things, and battles long ago.
==========================

kim

You are too funny, Clarice, with your protestations re 'detest team sport'. What do you think JOM is?
==============================

Daddy

Churchill definitely played Polo in India, and in his very early bio, "My Early Years", he spends much ink describing the unexpected success of his team, their committment to excellence sort of attitude, and how that then built esprit de corps among his fellow soldiers. He had dislocated his shoulder on springing out of the boat on his first arrival at Bombay a few months earlier, and he details how that somewhat hobbled him at Polo, yet that he felt he was still able to contribute. I believe I recall that the dislocated shoulder which he kept injuring at Polo was a contributing factor to his leaving the military.

kim

Didn't he commonly have a coat on one sleeve only?
=================================

Daddy

Don't know about that Kim, but I'm certainly no Winston expert. I do recall that Churchill tells in that same bio, "My Early Years", that he decided during his Polo in India time, from observing his compatriots, that he needed to learn how to drink whiskey. (Sorry I can't locate the book so this is off of memory from about 5 years back.) Initially repelled by the taste and smell, in Churchillian fashion he determines he must succeed. He diligently starts a program of pounding down the hard stuff every night for 2 weeks straight, by which time his taste buds are successfully trained and his lifelong pattern established. Young athletes and alcohol, ever shall they mix. Indian gals peeling their clothes off for rupee's however, is not mentioned in Winston's very enjoyable read.

maryrose

Lacrosse is a great sport for girls in high school and now some get scholarships to play in college. The girls I know don't have time to party on the weekends because they are on the road traveling to their lacrosse matches. The coach should have supervised his boys better.

ed

Hmmmm.

1. The DA is up for election and is very obviously using this as leverage to be re-elected.

2. It's an extremely short step from witness to defendant.

3. Almost anything is possible here as we know very little beyond what the lawyers, and the DA, want us to know.

A good friend of mine was arrested at school because a girl accused him and another boy of attacking her at night by a golf course and raping her. She also said they were wearing "black ninja" outfits.

Needless to say this was utter bullshit and she made it up to get back at him for something trivial.

Was the girl raped? I don't know. Was she raped by one or more of the lax players? I don't know. Was she assaulted prior to the party and then simply blamed the last group of guys she saw? I don't know. Is this a complete set up in order to sue the player's families for big cash? I don't know.

But frankly if the sole worthwhile evidence that you're going to present TM to support your position is that the players should have cooperated more, then you're full of it. I deeply respect the law but if I were in their shoes I wouldn't cooperate either as more people have talked their way into prison than out.

And a DA looking to score points to get re-elected is NOT someone I want to be cooperating with.

Frankly I think the best thing for people to do is not make assumptions. Almost anything is possible, and very likely is.

Charlie (Colorado)

Mary Rose, my ex-wife was a girls' lacrosse player. That's a very different game than men's lacrosse: girls lacrosse players wear pretty plaid skirts; men's lacrosse players wear helmets and armor.

Cecil, I hadn't heard about Duke buying the houses, which after all was only about a month ago; I can vaguely see the argument, although I bet you that the alumni magazine didn't say anything about the endowment paying to quiet down some off campus parties.

Rick Ballard

Charlie,

Have you seen this story on the series of pictures shot around the time of the alledged crime?

I'm wondering if the defense attorneys are holding a few back that were taken in the 20 minute gap until after the victim testifies? I know I would.

MarkD

Anybody who hasn't absorbed the lesson from Marhta Stewart or Scooter Libby is, quite frankly, a fool. The ONLY response is "I want a lawyer." Those kids would be insane to talk to the DA. He's a politician. Do you trust politicians?

TomsMom

Be nice to my little Tommy, my daugher-in-law is a drunken, stanky ho, just like the lying stipper in this case. Plus tough guys (aka real men) scare my Tommy.

kim

The Easter Funny left off-color ovoids all over the playground.
=======================================

Diva

I am sure there is a way to connect this post with the main subject of TM's blog, the Plame case. Things that come to mind: prosecutors with reputations and agendas to pursue, the value of hesaid/shesaid "evidence," criminalizing policy differences, trial by media, guilt by association, and using the judicial system for settling scores. TM essentially declares the case closed on the lacrosse players, that they had it coming, and implies that it is a trivial matter...thereby missing the larger lessons of his body of work on Plame.

kim

Now Diva, that's the luscious chocolate egg. I'll savor that one for weeks. But Plame is not trivial, the White House didn't have it coming, and the media has tried not to try it. So I don't blame him for missing the larger than life lessons you're learning.
=================================

Diva

Kim - must not have made myself clear. Of course, Plame is not trivial and the White House didn't have it coming. I don't think TM thinks so either and therefore his stance on the Duke LAX team surprises and disappoints. Re "the media has tried not to try it" - there we disagree.

Diva

Let me rephrase that - I don't know whether TM thinks the White House had it coming, but it seems to me the point of the blog has been to find out if it did. the same courtesy should be extended to the Duke players.

kim

Art forced me into that malapropism. The media is trying it in a different fashion than they are trying Plamegate.

Different perspectives re: Plame, too. I consider the outrageous team members to be either the press drunk with power and elan, or thug CIA consumed with evil. Fitz is the stripper, and the White House is the poor cops trying to figure the whole mess out.
============================

kim

Yeah, you anticipate my point. It is your perception that is the point of the blog. From my perspective, and I'm certainly not presuming to state Tom's, this is all about finding out the truth of the matter, not whether or not the White House deserves a spanking.

This is serious stuff, and it's not about leaking Val's name in 'revenge'.
=========================

Specter

Funny - TomsMom sounds a lot like columbo....

Diva

Kim - Re serious stuff, so is the allegation of rape against 50 young men. That is why I don't get TM's flip attitude.

kim

In the one case, booze expressed the evil; in the other, power expressed the evil. The Duke case is not trivial; its magnitude pales. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that what Duke is about is merely gross, the venality is of a very different quality than in Plamegate. Sure, some parallels. Comparable and incomparable. Have I sliced enough off the egg?
==================

kim

Let's see, the next slice tastes of justice delayed with over tones of rush to judgement. The slice of Life Invideos brings tears to orbs. Yeah, ideally truth precedes judgement. How did the process get so messed up, in both these cases.
===========================

CS

Nifong, the DA, has a primary next month. One of his opponents is a local African-American lawyer who went to Nor. Car. Central, same as the complainant. The existence of any inculpatory evidence is thus underdetermined. The DA would commit political suicide by not going to the grand jury the month before the primary, regardless of evidence.

I've been making this blog my one-stop shop for Plame analysis. The class bias, or whatever, of this post aside, the comments on cooperation leave me wondering about some other judgments expressed here about Libby/Plame.

Lack of supervising authority over athletes, regardless of sport or race, is just another way the educationalist establishment fails males.

MaryW

For a parent this case is a nightmare. If you have a son and he is falsely accused how does he get back his good name? The fact the individuals who may be charged are athletes is really irrelevant. Any man can be charged with rape and his name and picture will be published in the papers. If the allegation is proven to be false, he will still be remembered as being connected to the original charge.

This is the connection to Flame Gate. How does Scooter Libby get his good name back? He has been tried and convicted by the media and the prosecutor in his press conference. The actual outcome of the trial or hearings will only be a footnote. His good name has been tarnished beyond repair.

Athletics can be a positive in a young man’s life. For many of them, the coaches are one of the few positive male role models in their lives. (What is the percentage of men involved in education on the K-12 level? I know it is low, but not how low). The team helps to provide a “school” family, i.e. peer acceptance. For those with low academic standing the desire to compete can and does act as an impetus to improved classroom performance. Studies have shown that increased levels of physical activity help some students in the classroom. As recess and walking to school have disappeared more boys have been diagnosed as having an attention deficit disorder because they do not sit still.

Diva

CS said:
"I've been making this blog my one-stop shop for Plame analysis. The class bias, or whatever, of this post aside, the comments on cooperation leave me wondering about some other judgments expressed here about Libby/Plame."

From me - DITTO!

Rick Ballard

If sons are being raised in a manner which does not provide the assimilation of character traits that would cause them to refrain from participating in the behavior described (hiring the strippers for an Animal House fling) then parents should have cause to worry. In loco parentis is a concept almost unknown at colleges since the early '70's. It was never particularly effective but the disciplinary aspects were undoubtedly beneficial to some.

The actions of the team in refusing to cooperate are as completely understandable as they are dishonorable. Boys were not taught to be moral cowards on the fields of Eton and I believe that Tom's contempt may stem from cognizance of that fact. Barnyard morals may be a "fact of life" but there is little reason to elegize that fact.

boris

The situation has all the ethics dilemma of a drug deal gone bad. With national attention, politics and race card play ... perception trumps reality. When the rules change to guilty unless they can prove otherwise, it's best left to cagey lawyers.

In a controled situation where the boys get what's coming to them and the facts determine what that is, cooperation is best for everyone. That ship may have sailed already.

cfw

Before dumping on lax players for dishonorable lack of cooperation, ask yourself it the DA would simultaneously present his list of witnesses (alleged V, V's friend, V's escort service dispatcher, med examiners, DNA testers, father of alleged V, persons with V before V danced for lax players, etc.) for informal interviews.

Is it dishonorable for the DA to keep secrets before filing charges? No, but if he wants his secrets, how can he persuasively rant about lax lawyers keeping secrets also?

We live with an adversarial justice system - at this stage, the DA is de facto charged with making out a case as a partisan.

The system makes it unconstitutional (under the 6th Amendment) ineffective assistance of counsel for defenders to turn over clients for interviews without some strategy - meaning a quid pro quo.

Here, there is no "quid" for the "quo" demanded by DA Nifong.

A "no thanks" from the lax players (through counsel) does not imply dishonor, or lack of character.

It's tradition, custom, the accepted practice since 1787, yes?

Would John Adams have turned over his Boston Massacre defendants (the Redcoats) for interviews without counsel? No chance, unless he was getting some major quid pro quo.

Fingernails left in bathroom - maybe friend of V just got tired of the nails and removed them so the V would not accidentally scratch the friend while V was staggering around with help from friend?

Rick Ballard

Careful you don't tear the parchment while your're doing the wrapping. You may want to add something from the Declaration and finish up with a thought from the Gettysburg Address.

When you decide to sleep with the hogs you can't really expect people to admire your selection of company.

larwyn

BaDaBing Dancers' vote in jeopardy. Al Sharpton ROTFLHAO!

Jesse Jackson Gives Duke Party Stripper Free Ride

Are you wondering how to pay for those mounting education costs

No one has been charged in the case, but the allegations have rocked the community. Jackson he has yet to speak with the woman, but said his group pledged to pay for her tuition even if her story proves false.

The woman should be able to support her two children and pay her tuition without having "to sacrifice her body to make money."

If your little girl is having trouble making ends meet Jesse may be able to help.

Are you also confused.

A. The Democrat party believes or at least touts moral relativity.

B. No one should judge another's lifestyle choices, unless the another is Republican.

C. NOW & NARAL & Planned Parenthood have gone to great effort to convince each women (Hollywood's been a big help here) that she has every right to flaunt her sexuality, to hit on the male/female of her desire and to be a "slut" or "ho" if that is her choice.
(see B)

So now Jessie is judging the "Exotic Dancer/Escort as a profession to be ashamed of. Not for a MOTHER.

Liberal Judges have been giving children back into the custody of murderers of the other parent, drug dealers and users, pimps/madams, other "exotic escorts", pedophiles, and and and.

Hasn't Jessie just crossed some line here. He's introducing a
judgement and shame.

Bet Al Sharpton is LHAO at this major foot in mouth by Jackson.

CS

Youg guys are like dogs. However well-trained at home, out running in packs they're sometimes unrecognizable. Sports (and the military, when not being shot at) are useful as they train young males to behave decently in groups by putting them in preformed packs under controlled stress and hierarchical supervision. Problems arise when the pack forms but the supervision is inadequate.

I go back and forth, trying to decide which are greater hazards and irritants: college athletes whose disadvantaged upbringing hasn't subjected them to behavioral restrictions, or college athletes whose privileged upbringings share just the same lack.

That being said, anyone who thinks it's moral cowardice to decline to cooperate when under investigation is just foolish. Sorry.

Maybe allusions to Eton aren't quite right. Etonian forthrightness had as a predicate effective immunity from anything worse than an unpleasant interview with Dr Arnold and expulsion.

Rick Ballard

"Boys were not taught to be moral cowards on the fields of Eton and I believe that Tom's contempt may stem from cognizance of that fact."

"That being said, anyone who thinks it's moral cowardice to decline to cooperate when under investigation is just foolish."

That's an unjust conflation. The boys involved behaved dishonorably ab initio unless they had never agreed to any code of conduct proposed by their coach. Their current conduct in asserting their rights is entirely unremarkable and understandable and entirely consonant with the lack of character that they so fulsomely demonstrated. I would expect nothing more from them and neither should anyone else.

Btw - expulsion from Eton had lifelong consequences.

larwyn

If "Knock yourself out."
means go ahead, I have permission from my grandson to post his email to me this evening. He is in his
sophomore year at an ivy.

About Duke,

I think it's an outrage that they have cancelled the season.

First of all, there are probably at least a few kids on the team who
don't drink, like me, and a large number who do so sensibly. That is
the case with the rugby team, was the case with sprint football when I
played as a freshman, and I assume would be the case in any group of 40
or 50 kids.

Likewise, any group this large is going to have its share
of trouble makers. But, the other players should not be denied a season
(especially the seniors) simply because some of the other members of
their team wanted to have a not-so-sensible party.

This holds true even when the coach himself is a fool.

Although academics is of course first and foremost, I have a strong sense of pride and camaraderie from playing an intercollegiate sport, something I wouldn't have had from any other experience at this school.

This has been destroyed for everyone on the Duke lacrosse team, even those who were not (as I assume must be the case for at least a few) didn't even go to the party at all. I can't remember the last time any event for the rugby team had 100% attendance.

Since when has it been the case, that when you can't find the guilty
party, the entire population gets punished?

Being a college student, I can say that drinking often gets out of
control, and there is a focus placed on this sort of behavior that is
almost surreal. It has affected my social situation, only in the sense
that it has made me have to look harder for other people like me, who
won't be found at the big drinking parties or whatever.

Contrary to popular belief, however, there is a large number of college
kids who don't drink, or who behave responsibly, although they aren't
always the loudest, most noticeable ones.

They have been in every group and on every team that I have been a
part of, and I am sure it can't be much different for Duke. I just feel
bad for these types of kids, who now can't play the sport they love.

And that's my side of it.
J

"So Far, So Good"
says Grandmother

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Wilson/Plame