Where The Boys Are

The Dinocrat lets loose.

Comments

[kim]

I'd like to know what datamining will do to freedom of expression. Is it so necessary for the preservation of liberty that it must be well regulated?
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[Appalled Moderate]

The Dinocrat could have held it in. As far as I can tell, he's mad that the Mohammed cartoons did not get in the paper. Wonder if he would have felt the same way had some minstral show black charicatures been printed, caused riots, and US papers refused to print them.

The First Amendment does not require us to spit in the face of others in order to show what brave people we are. Otherwise the baravest people in the universe would be the KKK marching through Skokie. An editor's refusal to print something offensive and hurtful is an exercise of 1st amendment rights, not an abridegement of them.

[Sue]

Appalled,

Spit in the face of others? Offensive and hurtful? A stupid ass cartoon? They would have printed a cartoon depicting Jesus Christ in a heartbeat. Of course, that wouldn't have required bravery, would it?

[kim]

I'm appalled that in a free society, with the First Amendment, every editor exercised their rights in precisely the same manner. Editorial Correctness? What Estate to they think they maintain? Certainly not the Forthright Estate.
========================================

[boris]

Showing some backbone in Mogadishu might have given OBL 2nd thoughts about 911. Namby pamby appeasement "sends the wrong message".

Which side is more like the KKK ???

We apparently disagree on the point. If you're seeking any kind of common ground, drop that puppy.

[SteveMG]

AM:
As has been noted before when this controversy emerged, if newspapers withheld publishing the cartoons because they made the editorial judgment that they were bigoted or offensive, that's one thing. News organizations make such judgments weekly if not daily.

But if they withheld publication because they were afraid of violent retribution from radical fascist-like Islamists, whose demands will only increase (stone adulterers now? gays? unwed mothers?), then that's another.

Question: If these Islamists demanded that the NY Times not carry photos of gay married couples, should Keller give in?

After all, they're offended by such pictures.

Even moderates (I assume) can say "No"?

SMG

[kim]

When the leftists finally wake up and see with whom they are in bed, well, I guess the joke tells itself.
================================

[kim]

What big teeth dot Wiley One got.
====================

[AB]

It's always a pleasure to see Islamist attitudes mirrored in our own wingnut faction. I'd thought at first this was a plea for American men to act like men by - I dunno - protecting and defending women. Instead, he heaps a few logs on the fire of misogyny by stating that the real crime is that we allow them to treat us "like women", acting "like girls" in response ... The answer? MORE macho posturing,of course. Where would Wingnuttia be without that?

How about actually giving a shit about things like how women, who enjoyed some of the freedoms of one of the few secular societies in the Islamic world are now being driven back into the dark ages by the Islamic Fundamentalist government all our blood and money has so graciously handed to Iran's new favorite neighbor? Or maybe caring about the brand new Iraqi sex trade that now threatens Iraqi women?

Nah, in America "real men" don't respect and protect the women they've "liberated" from a secular society into a fundamentalist one. They just talk shit when they feel like they're being treated like them.

You people are such a disgrace but the biggest disgrace is how you willfully ignore your own sick hypocrisies.

[kim]

What about the kuan yin in Fallujah, disemboweled, drawn, quartered?
==============================

[windansea]

AB

chicks dig neocons

[AB]

Oh really, windandsea? Then why do they have to hire prostitutes then?

Those bogus Republican "moral values" are going to come in handier and handier as we continue down this road, eh, "men"?

[Appalled Moderate]

The whole print the Mohammed cartoon thing became an exercise in frat boy bravado which did not impress me. In this country, the cartoons became a whole exercise in "You can't tell me what to do, you [insert favorite anti-arab epithet]".

Would the press do the same thing with jesus? Some would. That makes all this right, how? I don't think Piss Christ was a worthwhile statement, but I tend to think ignoring such, rather than making a big glowing statement is the better approach.

[Dwilkers]

This is why I think most of the time when people are appalled about the attitudes of "liberals" what they are really talking about is "leftists".

Any real liberal fully understands the threat to every liberty we treasure that is represented by Islamofascism.

I dunno what part BDS plays in it though. I do know liberals better wake the hell up.

[Appalled Moderate]

SMG:

Newspapers make editorial judgments. Part of that is who they choose to offend. Sure, the NYT maight run a gay couple holding hands on the front page. But would they show same couple making hot kissy face on the front page? I doubt it. Why not? Readers would get offended and it would be a distraction from whatever story they were trying to illustrate.

[boris]

"You can't tell me what to do, you [insert favorite anti-arab epithet]".

So let's turn a normal free-human reaction (You can't tell me what to do) into assumed bigotry (insert favorite anti-arab epithet).

How reasonable and moderate is that?

[AB]

Try and remember Dwilkers, as personally satisfying as your hatred of "leftists" may be to you, that this stupid blurb is nothing but another fluff piece, about a non-issue, written by one of the rightwing's sexually insecure misogynists. Nothing more.

The cartoon was printed and reprinted, on blogs I visited both left and right. No one was afraid of anything here in the US, and rightly so, except apparently the writer of this blurb, whose mother must have dressed him in skirts until fifth grade or something, considering his fear of turning female. Extending the psychological pathology of wingnuts to the political arena - while grandly entertaining - does not shed any light on any of the vast geopolitical problems we face, or their possible solutions.

[boris]

Theo Van Gogh died in vain.

[Sue]

Holy Crap. Now the Lacrosse players are republicans? I doubt those boys even know what party their parents belong to, let alone what their political affiliation is.

And as everyone knows, only republicans would get drunk and hire a stripper.

[AB]

Now, sue, try and click the link before you kick in with your predeterminations. It's WSJ, safe for your one trick pony eyes.

We got a new Sex Scandal in town, "men", and this one's 100% Pubberific.

[Appalled Moderate]

All right, Boris. Why was it so important for the New York Times or the Akron Beacon-Journal or the Columbus Post Dispatch to run those cartoons, when anyone who had a mind to could download what they wanted.

[boris]

Not the point. Why was it so important they not?

[boris]

Pubberific

Juanita, Kathleen, Monica, Jennifer ...

[boris]

PAULA

[AB]

Clearly, boris, you didn't read the article. It's because they're GIRLS...or at least willing to be gay-raped by Islamofascists...Geez, can't you even understand your own propaganda?

[Appalled Moderate]

Boris:

I think the Dinocrat would tell you it was important for the NYT (if not the regional papers) to run them. AS for me, I think it was a reasonable editorial decision not to run them, and the spasms of criticism directed at the NYT and others were folks who feel that "rubbin yer noses in it" is a 1st Amendment obligation.

Personally, if the NYT chose to run them, I would have been ok with it. the thing I don't accept was that a failure to run them was some kind of girly-man thing.

[boris]

I don't accept was that a failure to run them was some kind of girly-man thing

And how YOU perceive it is not the point.

[AB]

Get with the times, boris. There's a new gang in town. These girls don't even have names...but the limo company that taxied them to the SIX involved Pub Congressmen does - Shirlington Limosine...Not only does the CEO have 62 page rap sheet, they were graciously rewarded for their "services" by fat $21.2 million contract with HOMELAND SECURITY.

Ah, Republican governance.

[Syl]

AB

You're a riot and your own caricature.

AM

Our society has been feminized to the point even our women don't have the guts they used to have. Wagging fingers and recoiling from even the notion of hurting someone's feelings is unnatural enough that the PC mentality is doomed to end eventually.

But I fear not soon enough.

[boris]

AB, that last post made no sense at all.

Frankly I don't care what you're trying to say but if you are going to use my handle at the beginning could you at least try to have a coherent thought? Otherwise Do Re Mi Fa Q.

[windansea]

Those bogus Republican "moral values" are going to come in handier and handier as we continue down this road, eh, "men"?

hmmm..seems like Cleo and AB are man hating grenade chuckers who are dizzy from spinning round the hamsterwheels

[Syl]

And how YOU perceive it is not the point.

Damned straight!

[Sue]

Okay. It was a different Duke. ::grin::

My outrage remains. I need my outrage. ::grin::

[windansea]

Okay. It was a different Duke. ::grin::

heh...Sue gets lucky!!

[Appalled Moderate]

Syl & Boris:

Care to define the point? because looking at the Dino's post, it looks like his problem is with the wimpy way the press and politicians dealt with the cartoons. My posts address at least one of the prongs.

[topsecretk9]

AB

You got some problems in your own house of ethics and the *awarding* of million dollah contracts...but about the girls? It's only sex, man...MOVEON.ORG

[AB]

Made no sense boris? Are you stupid?

The LIMOSINE COMPANY that ferried prostitutes and Republican CONGRESSMEN around is run by a felon and was REWARDED with HOMELAND SECURITY CONTRACTS.

This does not make sense to you? How deep does wingnut pathology go? Just because you know your "men" stepped in another pile of stinking doo doo doesn't mean you have to pretend to have a reading comprehension problem.

[Sue]

They were not printed because they were judged to be offensive and hurtful. They print offensive and hurtful crap all the time. If that one point would be acknowledged, we could move on to the point of whether it was 'manly' or not.

[AB]

Topsekret, "only girls" used to bribe Congressmen. But keep that hypocrisy train rolling, buddy. Wingnuttia would fold in a day if you had to get off that sucker.

[boris]

Clearly, boris, you didn't read the article. It's because they're GIRLS...or at least willing to be gay-raped by Islamofascists...Geez, can't you even understand your own propaganda?

Makes no sense.

The LIMOSINE COMPANY that ferried prostitutes and Republican CONGRESSMEN around is run by a felon and was REWARDED with HOMELAND SECURITY CONTRACTS.

That's legal in at least one state.

[topsecretk9]

buddy

Sexist

[boris]

it looks like his problem ...

Is encouraging bad behavior like Theo and 911.

[AB]

Oh, goody,Boris, I love the different flavors of hypocrisy you guys serve up. Justify this one please. The bribery, the prostitution, the misuse of government agencies and taxpayer funds. Come on, you can do it, you're a pro.

And my first post made perfect sense. It's what the linked-to wingnut was saying...in other words. Maybe it's too early down there in the basement for ya. Get some coffee.

[PeterUK]

"I don't think Piss Christ was a worthwhile statement, but I tend to think ignoring such, rather than making a big glowing statement is the better approach."

So AM ,you are all in favour of Muslims ignoring the cartoons,which by the way are very tame compared to the Piss Christ.

[boris]

Oh, goody,Boris

Somehow it just doesn't compare to rape or selling nuclear missle technology to the communists for campaign contributions.

They just don't make scandals like they used to.

[Appalled Moderate]

Boris:

You can have your own opinion, but you don't get to have your own facts. Here's what the Dinocrat said:

In that regard, has anyone noticed that our craven politicians and the pantywaist MSM acted like girls when faced with the threatened violence of the Islamist mobs in the Cartoon Riots? They quavered and quaked and talked about ’sensitivity’ and so forth instead of telling the bullies to get lost, and giving them a good thrashing if they persisted. How much damage has the failure of Western men to act like men done to the prospects for the liberation of women in the Islamic world? Surely these women know that the men of the West will do nothing to protect them. The men of the West run scared when a scraggily mob chants evil slogans and holds up scary signs.

[boris]

How much damage has the failure of Western men to act like men done to the prospects for the liberation of women in the Islamic world?

So why was Theo killed?

[Sue]

There's a new gang in town. These girls don't even have names...but the limo company that taxied them to the SIX involved Pub Congressmen does - Shirlington Limosine...Not only does the CEO have 62 page rap sheet, they were graciously rewarded for their "services" by fat $21.2 million contract with HOMELAND SECURITY.

Link please.

[Appalled Moderate]

PeterUK:

I think the Muslim riots over the cartoons were in no way justified. I just do not see the need to demonstrate our press' masculinity by running the cartoons.

[Cecil Turner]

Dinocrat: "like they treat women"
AB: "like women"

Honest? No.

Newspapers make editorial judgments.

And 90+% of them make judgments with the same slant, time and again, that just happens to benefit our enemies. The media, taken as a whole, has performed shamefully in the present conflict. This is but another example.

[AB]

For the lady.

Weak Boris. But consistent with the new Republican Creed that exempts them from all responsibility, public or private.

[windansea]

I think the Muslim riots over the cartoons were in no way justified. I just do not see the need to demonstrate our press' masculinity by running the cartoons.

AM...so what do you think when our press shows it's masculinity by running fake Koran stories?

[Sue]

I bet Cunningham was wishing right about now he was exempted.

[Sue]

And reprinting old Abu Graib pictures. Nothing like a brave press.

[Gary Maxwell]

Boris

Loved the scales comment. My sentiments exactly!

[Cecil Turner]

I think the Muslim riots over the cartoons were in no way justified.

Let's go just a bit farther than that: they were laughable nonsense. And by failing to run the cartoons (which would have illustrated to the average American just how inoffensive they were . . . and thus how crazed the jihadist response was), the MSM squelched a good bit of the story.

[windansea]

it seems our press does not mind being "masculine" and "rubbing muslims noses in it" as long as the resulting anger will be directed elsewhere

[Appalled Moderate]

w&s:

they fall into the disrepute they deserve.

[Appalled Moderate]

Cecil:

Mohammed in a suicide bomber's outfit? I could see someone taking offense there. Liken it to a mershal Jesus using his cross as a sword.

Running only the most innocuous ones would have also presented a false picture.

[Rick Ballard]

"The media, taken as a whole, has performed shamefully in the present conflict."

They are paying a price for it in the marketplace just as the party that they represent has paid and will pay again a price at the ballot box. There is some justice outside the legal system.

[markg8]

"But consistent with the new Republican Creed that exempts them from all responsibility, public or private."

Well the Democrats are improving,moving up from drowning the help to just banging them.

[topsecretk9]

but consistent with the new Republican Creed that exempts them from all responsibility, public or private.

Next time could you get a pair of those industrial strength blinders for me too...that way I too can forget about the embarrassing and criminal wrongdoings of past and present Dem lawmakers and pretend life as we know it began in 2000.

[Barney Frank]

AM might have a point if the newspapers had not run these political statements (and that's what they were) primarily out of concern for the sensibility of others. But that is not why they refused to run them; they didn't want a fatwa on their heads. That's not courage that is cowardice.

I disagree with the Dinocrat in one sense. The West's cowardice has discouraged all freedom seeking people in muslim societies not just the women.

[topsecretk9]

Cecil:

Mohammed in a suicide bomber's outfit? I could see someone taking offense there. Liken it to a mershal Jesus using his cross as a sword.

Running only the most innocuous ones would have also presented a false picture.

Please.

Last week terrorists entered an Iraqi school and cut off the heads of 2 teachers in front of the children.

Did the muslim population rise up and riot? Were they offended? Outraged? NO.

On the other-hand, cartoons and British prison toilet positioning has westerners scrambling to appease.

I think Cecil has it about right

(which would have illustrated to the average American just how inoffensive they were . . . and thus how crazed the jihadist response was)

[PeterUK]

"Running only the most innocuous ones would have also presented a false picture."

AM they were all innocuous,have you seen them,you seem as if you are arguing from a hypothetical position rather one of knowledge.

BTW Everybody,does todays trollery strike you as indictus interruptus depression?

[Joe Wilson]

Hey there. Give me a jingle if you need a real truthteller to investigate these limosine and prostitution rings.

[Cecil Turner]

Mohammed in a suicide bomber's outfit? I could see someone taking offense there. Liken it to a mershal Jesus using his cross as a sword.

I take it you're talking about the bomb turban one? In any event, the contrast with "Piss Christ" is stark. Why not let folks make their own judgments?

Running only the most innocuous ones would have also presented a false picture.

The 12 that caused the furor are innocuous enough. (They'd also seem to be the only ones pertinent to the discussion.)

[Sue]

Hey Top,

I heard that the military investigated and found no basis to that charge. Was it confirmed somewhere else?

[boris]

TSK9 ! absolutely on target. Cecil's point is killer.

by failing to run the cartoons (which would have illustrated to the average American just how inoffensive they were . . . and thus how crazed the jihadist response was), the MSM squelched ...

... an emotional response by the public in favor of the war on terror.

Thanks for highlighting it.

[topsecretk9]

I take issue with the notion anyone interested can just look the cartoons up on the internet.

Well, yes lots of people are on the internet, but just as many are not.

Don't you think a person reading a newspaper item on riots as the result of the Danish Cartoons should be able to see the cartoons to judge for themselves? Don't you think there might be just a few people wondering, WOW these must be some pretty offensive cartoons to have caused such a response?

[american in europe]

Cecil is absolutely right. The riots made the cartoons newsworthy, and by refusing to run them American newspapers failed to do their job. We're not talking about a few picket lines protesting 'The Last Temptation of Christ' here. People died, embassies were burnt to the ground, muslim protesters in Western countries incited murder while police did nothing. This is big news that requires context to understand, and the MSM refused to provide that context.

[PeterUK]

"I just do not see the need to demonstrate our press' masculinity by running the cartoons."

So in fact, we are to take the Muslim outrage at its face value,that we are to remain ignorant,as indeed are most Muslims, as to what it was that caused mayhem and murder around the globe.
If you really want to live your life vicariously through the prejudices of others,go ahead be a sock puppet.

[topsecretk9]

I heard that the military investigated and found no basis to that charge. Was it confirmed somewhere else?

Sue, what you heard is most likely right, I haven't heard since.

I'll revise, two cars blew up innocent civilians oh, about every other day. Bombs in Egypt.

Does the muslim population rise up and riot? Offended? Outraged? No.

[boris]

Don't you think a person reading a newspaper item on riots as the result of the Danish Cartoons should be able to see the cartoons to judge for themselves?

It sets the default interpretation to "offensive" so even if they do look them up they believe ohter reasonable people can see the offense even if they can't.

The Emperors new cartoons indeed.

[PeterUK]

It would also have been pertinent to illustrate the way the Danish Imam "sexed up" the pictures with some really offensive fakes,the further to enrage Muslims.
This was also a political manoeuvre,the picture had been published in an Islamic country months before,the outrage was manufactured,by whom? Iran at a guess,because of the nuclear issue and Denmarks position on the UN Security Council at that time.

[Cecil Turner]

WTC video vs Abu Ghraib. . .

. . . an emotional response by the public in favor of the war on terror.

That would seem to be the common link, wouldn't it?

[topsecretk9]

Personally, I find it offensive editors DECIDE what is news and fit to print.

Which goes to the root problem of all news coverage these days.

[Lesley]

I see a double standard with regard to what is "offensive" to people of faith (in my illustration - Christians) and making editorial judgments about same. Some recent examples would be the massive play "The DaVinci Code" has received, National Geographic's "The Gospel of Judas," and Michael Baigent's "The Jesus Papers - Exposing the Greatest Cover-up in History" (Baigent has received quite a bit of media attention).

This "editorial sensitivity" biz frankly reeks of hypocrisy.

[Rick Ballard]

I don't believe that it can be simply labeled "cowardice". The media has been willing to risk espionage charges (a small risk, to be sure) in order to advance sedition and subversion. Physical fear of splodeydopes wasn't the cause. Fear of increasing public awareness of the depravity of the Islamofascists would seem more on point.

Highlighting the cartoons just wouldn't serve the ultimate purpose and the propagandists know better than to print something that would diminish that lovely picture of kite flying Iraqi kids whose happiness was destroyed by the invaders.

[Hit The Bid]

I just don't see why the failure to print cartoons demonstrates that we are pussies here in the US and not showing enough "machismo" (whish is good) and we are being "feminine" which is bad.

Newpapers made and editorial and a BUSINESS decision not to print them. Blogs and other publications can make a different interpretation of what to do. I see this as the beity of a free and open press...TV, Print, ONline--all of our media can do what suits their readerships.

As for linking this to the broader war on "islamo fascism" I think thats just gay.

It implies that the correct response to their legitimate offense at some cartoon is for us to rub them in their face. I am a man and a liberal...if you want to go meet some islamo-facists in a parking lot ala the outsiders, then go ahead, but thats a pretty foolish, stupid, juvenile way to go about it. What is Mark Levin going to lead that charge? Hannity?

Many of you espousing that point do not understand what it is to be a man. Period. that is the nicest conclusion I can draw.

[noah]

If you aren't outraged by whatever AB digs up you are a wingnut. QED.

Sorry AB my plate is full already.

From prior encounters with your reasoning ability, I know entirely more than I care to know about your priorities and prejudices.

The most outrageous editorial judgement still richocheting around my brain is that WaPo cartoon attacking Rumsfeld showing a hospitalized soldier without any limbs. Fuck liberals.

[topsecretk9]

Newpapers made and editorial and a BUSINESS decision not to print them.

Well that's interesting. That is what the WAPO said about removing a bunch of invective, offensive, profanity laced comments from their blog and they were taken to the woodshed for their extreme censorship, still are.

[PeterUK]

Bid,that coment should Hit The Bin.

[boris]

do not understand what it is to be a man

In nature the display of strength is often as good as the real thing. Yet never is the opposite strategery employed.

If one is prepared to respond with strength then a false display of weakness invites miscalculation and tragedy for both parties.

It's not machismo, it's nature.

[windansea]

HTB this is not about sex or gender...the press has had no problem outraging muslims and even make up stories when it suits their purpose..google fake koran story for starters

you write like a college sophmore and are in no position to give people here lessons on being a man

[Cecil Turner]

As for linking this to the broader war on "islamo fascism" I think thats just gay.

Oh yeah, obviously just made up by some wingnut, no possible basis in reality:

"We in Syria believe anti-Western sentiments are being fueled by two major things: the situation in Iraq and the situation in the occupied territories, the West Bank and Gaza," Moustapha said.

It implies that the correct response to their legitimate offense at some cartoon is for us to rub them in their face.

Is it "legitimate" for them to take offense at a cartoon in Denmark, and kill people in other countries as a result? (I'd like some of what that man is having, please.)

[PeterUK]

Interesting that all our Liberal commenters sound like trainee Imams.So anxious are they to prove their political opponents wrong,they actually sound like they are on the other side.

[Appalled Moderate]

Cecil:

Your argument is the best one (as usual), but do you honestly think that the reading public actually had much difficulty understanding that what we had here was yet another middle eastern rent-a-riot?

Anyway, the 1st amendment -- freedom of speech -- imposes no duties on anyone except the government. Folks like the Dinocrat, who try to impose made up duties on the press, don't understand what freedom is about.

[windansea]

you write like a college sophmore and are in no position to give people here lessons on being a man

actually I might have been overly generous with the above

here's the deal HTB...either you are a bit naive and don't realize how the media is manipulating you or you do know it and think you are playing hardball...

someday you may wise up

[PeterUK]

"do you honestly think that the reading public actually had much difficulty understanding that what we had here was yet another middle eastern rent-a-riot?"

Whren you make statements like this AM

"It implies that the correct response to their legitimate offense at some cartoon is for us to rub them in their face."

you are either not part of the reading public,or you do have difficulty in understanding.

[Gary Maxwell]

actually I might have been overly generous with the above

What you are thinking freshman after further review? Or drop out?

[windansea]

What you are thinking freshman after further review? Or drop out?

nope...sophomore in high school

[Patton]

It is an interesting that when it came to Cartoons and offending Islamic Extremists the press decided not to publish and told us they must be sensitive to others concerns
and not offend them.

But when it came to publishing wartime information that endangered Americans, they did not care about sensitivity, nor about whom it offended. It became their patriotic duty to publish.

[Hit The Bid]

Well, thats some nice invective folks! SOme of your best.

It doesn't change the fact that I am largely right. As for masculinity and "its just nature"...well, last time I checked we don't live in a state of anture, we invented this thing called society to protect natural, human and above all else, property rights.

I understand the media perhaps far better than you all do. I understand what it is. Yuo guys sit and bitch about what it is not...a vehicle to push your geo-political agenda.

Newpapers that don't print the cartoons to which they refer in their stories are excercising their right, as a business, to either do so or to not do so. Wheter or not we look like "pussies", women, femi-nazis for doing so is absurd. Am I to believe that if Every single one of our newpapers printed the cartoon then we would, with certainty ,have been sticking it to those Muslims and showing we are not afraid of them?

[Hit The Bid]

...and come one step closer to winning the war on terror? Come on! Quit embarassing yourselves.

Ok...now go ahead and hit me with your useless invective.

[Hit The Bid]

"patriotic duty to publish"

-Atavism is a dangerous mistress.

[PeterUK]

Patton,
"Anyway, the 1st amendment -- freedom of speech -- imposes no duties on anyone except the government. Folks like the Dinocrat, who try to impose made up duties on the press, don't understand what freedom is about."

The Gospel according to Appalled Moderate,it is just freedom of the press in action,the priesthood of veracity which guard Western values.Could they be persuaded to defect openly,do you think?

[windansea]

It doesn't change the fact that I am largely right.

actually no...you are largely left

and you are soooo not getting this dude

[Appalled Moderate]

Peter:

If you want to quote me in a damaging statement, care to provide a link? because I can't find what you've attributed to me via google and I do not remember saying what you attribute to me.

[Hit The Bid]

If it makes you feel better PenisUK, I am an Imam in training...that better? Validate your views a little more?