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April 07, 2006

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anon

TM, Glad to see your a real Bushie. Personally smear or swiftboat any opponent ala McCain, Cleland, Kerry, etc ....

Jim E.

Oh great. The floodgates have opened for all of the critics-of-Israel as being Jew-haters. Go to it, clarice.

I have no problem bashing anti-gay bigots like Wilson. But trying to connect him to anti-Semetism via his anti-gay bigotry? This is going to be one ugly, and non-sensical, comment thread.

My word means little around here, but I think this post is not only quite strange, I think it's irresponsible.

topsecretk9

When the Democrats take control of congress, their first order of business needs to be crushing the neoconservativers out of power in every foreign policy arena. Drive a damn stake through the heart of every single one of them, whatever it takes. They have been wrong, fundamentally wrong, on every...single....position they have ever taken. They have not been right about one single thing

The neocons need to be forced back into the dark holes from which they crawled. They are nothing but parasites who serve nobody and nothing but themselves who are using the Republican Party as a serving host

It still amazes me when I still see that drunk Bill Kristol on tv every week still spewing the same nonsense he was spewing 3 years ago

Zalmay Khalilzad? I'd like to punch him right in the face. I've never seen met him and I'd prefer never to see his face but yeah. He has never been right about one thing in 20 years. He is simply another neoconservative that has gotten every single thing wrong.


Wolfowitz did his best to destroy the Department of Defense so I guess it's time for him to go destroy the World Bank and he's got a willing partner in John Bolton who has taken it upon himself to destroy the United Nations, an organization that, since its' inception , the U.S. has benefitted from as much or more so than it has given.

Jim E.

I'll also sadly note that the last time TM opened the floodgates on the Wilson as anti-Semite question (that comment thread was particularly ugly), he emphatically and repeatedly disavowed any personal endorsement of the theory. He even semi-mocked it, and recognized it as being a sensitive topic. Not that it did much good, but at least he tried.

Unfortunately, TM's disavowal is much, much weaker this time. The kooks here will, in fact, resort to psychological profiling (and who can blame them, given the thrust of the post?) and will connect any criticism of neo-cons with anti-Semitism. TM surely knows what he's gonna get with this. Shame on him.

topsecretk9

Jime

If it helps, I don't think anyone thinks you espouse these views, I know I don't think that... but to deny that is exists is kooky...as evidenced by Wilson's other sentiments (not just the gay ones) above.

Javani

"I had once wondered whether Libby's apparent pre-occupation with Joe Wilson"

I think his concern had to do with the possibility his boss, Cheney, was pushing him about the "former Ambassador" leaking stories in the major US and British papers about his boss, Cheney, supposedly sending the former ambassador to Niger whose findings Cheney hid. Also Wilson was injecting himself into the British "dossier" scandal, which per the EPIC speech, he did knowingly and sought the removal of Bush and Blair. Think there were some calls accross the pond?

I think calling Libby, then, pre-occupied, is a little off. Certainly occupied.

"may have stemmed from a perception on Libby's part that Wilson was anti-Semitic (this would connect to the dubious proposition that anti-neocon equals anti-Semitic)."

I don't think it was originally dubious, the Neo-con tag has been expanded from its original meaning in some circles to include anybody they don't like. I've seen people point out Joe's remarks that sound anti-semitic, but that might be only occassional tactical pandering specific to post-Marxist anti-semitic left audiences and the self-described "Realists" (Paleos) of late.

Appalled Moderate

"I'm not prejudiced -- I hate everybody"

WC Fields

Javani

"He even semi-mocked it, and recognized it as being a sensitive topic."

Did he deny what he said about Gulf War II and American boys dying for Israel? As I said above, I think he's pandering, but it is not an unreasonble question to ask if he's an anti-semite if he says things usually heard from anti-semites.

Sue

Mr. E.,

Didn't Tom ask a question? Let me repost it for you

Anyway - I had once wondered whether Libby's apparent pre-occupation with Joe Wilson may have stemmed from a perception on Libby's part that Wilson was anti-Semitic (this would connect to the dubious proposition that anti-neocon equals anti-Semitic).

The question is did Libby see Wilson as anti-semitic and was that why Libby focused on Wilson more so than other critics.

No one reads what is written anymore.

topsecretk9

Appalled

One of my favorite Fields lines

Barney Frank


Its funny how the left becomes so overwrought when charges of racism or anti semitism are leveled their way and yet they so cavalierly dispense them toward others, or sit silently by while others do.


"The neocons need to be forced back into the dark holes from which they crawled. They are nothing but parasites who serve nobody and nothing but themselves who are using the Republican Party as a serving host"

The language and symbolism Mr. Wilson uses in this screed should concern every person of good will whatever their political stripe. JimE do you really not know the history of the accusations of jews as parasites, jews inhabiting dark holes and inhabiting hosts?
Would you close your eyes and ears so quickly if Pat Buchanan or Joe Sobran or some other paleocon were using such terminology about a predominately jewish group?

Can a person disagree with neo-cons without being anti semitic; of course. Should we give the benfit of the doubt to someone who uses terms like parasites inhabiting unwitting hosts? No. Wilson knows what those terms mean and how they've been used.

Javani

BTW, on the gay issue. I would bet Wilson's comment here are "dissent control" - wrongfully defining what people criticise him for. No one criticised him for that, or some loonies did. It is a deflective, straw man type of argument.

However if those two did comment about Joe and sex I suppose Joe's retort to them would be fair game. Did they? Or did he pull two names out of thin air?

Javani

Barney,

What you point out is classic anti-semitism. And since it's only applied to Jews (I think) it is appropriate to consider Joe's purposes in deploying it. It may only be pandering. It is odious nonetheless.

The parasite analogy is common in the Middle East, less so in Iran. But it originated in Europe pre-dating the Nazis. It is not a Middle Eastern creation.

Sue

I personally think Wilson is an anti-Semite. Has anyone read his NPR interviews? His PBS interviews? Pre-War? There is definitely a tone of anti-Semitism in his remarks.

JM Hanes

TM

"But as a follow-up question, is a middle-aged California WASP who engages in casual gay-baiting also more likely than most to project the impression that he harbors anti-Semitic attitudes?"

I think JimE's reservations are pretty reasonable here. While I had no problem with the Wilson/anti-neocon/anti-semitism discussion, I really don't get this question.

topsecretk9

"But as a follow-up question, is a middle-aged California WASP who engages in casual gay-baiting also more likely than most to project the impression that he harbors anti-Semitic attitudes?"

I guess I am missing the point of the question, I never thought his wasp heritage had anything to do with it...it's his choice of words that I raise my eyebrows at, just like I do when David Duke speaks it too.

I think it interesting the gay mocking caused eyebrows to raise rather than the punch in face and driving a stake through the heart of someone.

Rick Ballard

Needle in a boil.

JM Hanes

"Anyone who thinks they can get inside Libby's head is encouraged to take a stab at this."

You sure you really want to be encouraging this? What with the deer fucking and the aspen clustering, there's no way amateurs should be attempting this at home! No. Way.

boris

to project the impression

My take ...

The way Wilson looks and speaks projects an impression likely to set off those sensitive to discrimination, like possibly Libby.

clarice

His words beginning at the EPIC conference (and Johnson and McGovern's) set off my antenna. And others as well. I know if he did feel that way Libby was not alone inside or outside the Administration.

Ditto with the FBI's former counterterrorism head Szady.

Patton

I'd be interest in Andrew Sullivans take on this quote...think he will defend Wilson?

SteveMG

I always am amused (yes, I'm easily entertained) by people telling the owner of a blog what he should and should not post about. Eugene Volokh likes to point out to critics that there are lots of other blogs out there to visit; perhaps one will have everything you agree with posted on it.

Anyway, is Wilson an anti-semite? Serious charge to be sure; but it seems to me that the evidence isn't there. Painful admission since he's such a, er, jerk. Major league one (thanks Big Time).

Although he certainly too often uses the language and wording of the anti-semite. Language that had it come from a conservative - certainly a paleo-conservative - would bring charges of bigotry from - we're not supposed to use the words according to some folks here - "the left." And he likes to revel in front of clearly anti-semitic crowds and organizations.

Nah, he's not a bigot but he likes to play before them.

SMG

Patton

Notice where Pat Bushanan has found a home??

MSNBC..Chris Mathews show...

I'm just saying...

TM

I think this post is not only quite strange, I think it's irresponsible.

I think Wilson's gay-baiting was kind of strange and irresponsible.

However if those two did comment about Joe and sex I suppose Joe's retort to them would be fair game. Did they? Or did he pull two names out of thin air?

I have read that these two are closeted gay Republicans.

I never thought his wasp heritage had anything to do with it.

Good point, and some of my best friends are WASPs (And do mothers count?)

OTOH, if a middle aged Republican WASP had said that, folks would have hopped to.

cathyf

I am amazed at Mr. E's belief in Libby's godlike powers. He thinks that the only possible situation that would have caused Libby to not remember trivialities because he was outraged over a belief in Joe Wilson's anti-semitism is if Joe Wilson is in fact anti-semitic.

My diagnosis of Joe Wilson, by the way, is that he is a -baiter. We've seen him play the Jew-baiter and the gay-baiter now, and whether he is really anti-semitic or homophobic as opposed to just sociopathic is not really evident. All that is evident so far is that he is a master -baiter. (You knew that was coming, right?)

cathy :-)

Patton

And with regard to Bushs' 'Bring em on' comment vice the comments of others.

1. Bush is the Commander in Chief and thus speaks for the country and the Armed forces...the other commetators do not.

2. Bush's speech was pre-approved by the Department of Defense and the Psyche Ops guys have even had input into what Bush would say in speeches.
I haven't heard if any of the other commentators cited by the left have had their speeches reviewed/approved by DoD.

I also noticed how the NYT and other press says Wilson 'debunked' Bushs' SOTU BUT they say Bush was attempting to 'DISCREDIT' Wilson.
WHEN IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. WILSON ATTEMPTED TO DISCREDIT BUSH (POLITICS OF TRUTH) BY LYING -THAT IS CLAIMING THE DOCUMENTS HAD BEEN REVEALED AS FORGERIES PRIOR TO THE SOTU, WHICH WAS FALSE).

WHEREAS BUSH HAS SIMPLE DEBUNKED WILSONS ARGUM,ENT BY REVEALING THE TRUTH AS LAID OUT IN THE NIE. NOW OU MAY SAY THE NIE WAS INACCURATE, BUT IT WAS THE COLLECTIVE VIEW OF TH INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY AT THE TIME.

kim

Joe is a very sick man, thoroughly deluded about himself. The crash will be grievious.
========================

boris

seems to me that the evidence isn't there

Where is the Trent Lott evidence ???

I didn't need evidence to "get" that ol' Trent lacked the visceral reaction against segregation that I have always had.

owl

Still think it all tied because MSNBC was foaming this stuff 24/7 in that time period. Matthews(Joe's good bud) was one of the worst (possible Libby complaint) and later the word neocons (spoken like a dirty word) almost disappeared (magic!).

Darn, no access for 2 days and I missed CNN's "Bush the Leaker" and about 1,000 comments and articles here at Plame Centrel. Sure I need to send thanks to all for the good work....

SteveMG

Where is the Trent Lott evidence ???

Lott is/was a public official; Wilson's a private, albeit public, person.

Were Wilson a public official making the statements he has, he'd be in big trouble. If he had been Senate Majority Leader, he'd be gone.

Surely you can see that difference (among other things too numerous to list here). If I understand your point.

As to the specific charge of bigotry: I don't think Lott is a racist, or even a racialist (less sure about the latter).

Look, I can't look inside someone's head or heart. I like more evidence before I write off people (which is what we do as a society once the bigotry charge sticks).

SMG

topsecretk9

I never thought his wasp heritage had anything to do with it.

Good point, and some of my best friends are WASPs (And do mothers count?)

OTOH, if a middle aged Republican WASP had said that, folks would have hopped to.

Now I understand the question...oh boy would they have.

Forbes

Isn't it funny how the left likes to warble on about protecting privacy is the highest order of the nation--the controversy about "outing" Valerie is a supposed demonstration of this principle--but the moment the shoe is on the other foot, Wilson trades on rumors and gossip about someone's private matters.

(And what does one say about a married man who, apparently, agrees with the womanizer characterization, as he, himself, offers the premise as a set-up to his straw man argument?)

And better yet, the left regularly trades in ad hominem attacks...I seem to recall comparisons of the President with the Third Reich (perhaps I'm mistaken?)...yet, it is suggested that questioning the potential bigotry of the highly discredited, fabulist Joe "who's gonna play me in the movie" Wilson is somehow out of bounds--or irresponsible--is laughable!

Any Republican ever uttering such odious comment would forever forth be held up as poster boy for gay-bashing. Any Democrat: move along, nothing to see here.

noah

Closeted anti-semitism is widespread. I greatly admire Jews; Einstein is a hero of mine. Yet my former wife would accuse me of "anti-semitism" for ANY criticism of Jews as a group. If that makes me anti-semitic so be it but I would say it depends on the criticism and the spirit in which it is given. It is a paradox of our times I suppose, when group identity politics rule the roost, that criticism of groups is verboten. If groups are acting as groups they are fair game in my book.

I saw the EPIC video. Wilson reminded me of Al Gore. Bleh.

If Wilson is obliquely referring to Jews in the comment quoted by TSK9 then he is a pig.

Patton

Boris, now your just being silly.

I take it you are NOT a Democrat due to the visceral rascism the Democrat party has displayed its entire existence.

Right up to the DEAN of the Senate...the Conscience of the Democrats Bob 'Sheets' Byrd using the N-word on Foxnews..
saying there are white ni---rs too.

Last I looked he still stood in good stead with the rest of his party, regardless of his CLEARLY rascist statment while Trent Lott humored a 100 year old man on his birthday.

topsecretk9

I don't think Wilson is anti-semitic in the conventional deep rooted prejudiced sense, I think it's more of a penis envy anti-Semitism...NeoCons won, he didn't and so all his hopes, dreams and aspirations of being looked at as the ultimate expert on foreign relations (i.e. Bolton's job) were dashed and stolen.

He hates them because he feels cheated (and who knows, maybe some sweet franco business deals dried up as a result of the war too, so he hates them even more)

boris

I don't think Lott is a racist

Never said he was. To answer the question you duck, no evidence there either.

Nevertheless there was a problem with Lott. There is a worse problem with Wilson.

boris

I take it you are NOT a Democrat due to the visceral rascism the Democrat party has displayed its entire existence

The pander party used to pander to white privilige, now they pander to minority entitlement. Same shit, different day.

topsecretk9

To my comment above - sounded like I was saying his rhetoric was a result of the war, my bad. He was saying this before because they posed a threat to him.

Wilson is sort of a Sybil like character...when the camera rolls he insinuates that he really republican-ish and totes along his Bush elders letters and medals as proof. When the camera is off he whispers like Kerry at the rope line...those neo-con 's need a stake through the heart.

Funny thing is, it's never covered - as this speech shows...the local paper whitewashed the whole thing, Wilson wouldn't release the transcript...so an enthusiast KOS kid memorializes him. I said in the Andy Sullivan thread, wonder if Wilson accuses the Kos kid of "smearing" him -- but since it is never reported is it fair to assume MSM he hob knobs with don't report it because they largely agree (think Mark Green at ABC 'Jew Shame")?

(And what does one say about a married man who, apparently, agrees with the womanizer characterization, as he, himself, offers the premise as a set-up to his straw man argument?)

I noticed that too. Bet Val loved that.

SteveMG

Boris:
Never said he was. To answer the question you duck, no evidence there either.

I never said that you said he was one. My response was to the charge against Lott by critics at the time of the Thurmond controversy that he was one. Not charges from you; charges from the public (or parts of it).

Didn't duck your question at all. I said:

As to the specific charge of bigotry: I don't think Lott is a racist, or even a racialist (less sure about the latter).

How clearer can I get?

SMG

boris

Evidence was your thing.

It doesn't always depend on evidence.

Wilson (as Lott did) revealed too much to ignore.

SteveMG

It doesn't always depend on evidence.

Okay. Not be too snarky - or should I say "Wilsonian"? - but I'll pass.

The final word is yours.

SMG

Javani

In support of the argument he's not an anti-semite, but maybe panders depending on the audience, here's an article about his recent appearance before a university audience. One might quibble with a fact here or there, but this time he sounds reasonable enough. He talks about oil, not Ariel Sharon

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060406/NEWS/604060341

topsecretk9

Javani

Yep, reasonable enough...the only thing? The reporting. If you google "stake through the heart" and "Wilson" or variations you find that he does use this rhetoric more often, it's just not reported.

The Florida speech is an example, the local report looked pretty much like your link, it wasn't till this Kos person cataloged that gave a real glimpse.

maryrose

Ts
I agree with you. No one should be permitted a pass on such vile hate-speech. He should be called to task for it but he won't be.

willem

OTOH, I don't know why I get the sense Wilson sympathetically resonated with Fitz in a powerful and personal way; an unsual common bond, projection, something like that. Looking back, it seems to me that Fitz's apparent affinity for the Wilson hyperbole is more dark than naive. At times I wondered if it was Val and misplaced chivalry that blinded Fitz; but the more learn about the apparent rage that stews in Wilson and contrast that with the seemingly blind invective of the Fitz inqusition it becomes harder for me to ignore the faint but familiar scent of a deeply held self-blinding bias. That Fitz has a Jew in the crosshairs is a matter of fact. That he continues to do so, given the what seems to be an unfolding spectacle of his investigation's omissions and ignorances, should be puzzling to any resonable person. I am gentile to the core, but I long ago came to despise the hardened anti-semitism found in the northeastern US. The francophilic anti-semitic bent of Wilson and his apparent sympathetic resonance with Fitz bothers me a lot. Same with Patrick Buchannan or Chris Matthews. Some biases run much deeper than politics, or the law for that matter. The question of anti-semitism in Fitzgerald's conduct should not be left unconsidered. I think it should be of resonable concern to any caring person given what may someday be remembered as a considerable mishandling of both the facts and the public trust.

kim

I second willem.

And I welcome the discussion. This has been dabu, and it will be ever rather than never again so long as it is ignored.
============================

kim

Abba Dabba Taboo. Oh you, Diabu, you, want it to stay tiabu?
==========================

kim

It is easy to remove Jews and anti-semitism from the discussion. Imagine the world without Israel. Would it not be our role to police the world as benignly as possible? In other words, imagine the neocon position without Jews. It still makes sense.
============================

holycow

Okay, so let me get this straight. Fitz is going after Libby because he is anti-semite?

Holy God, people. Is there no low you won't go to to protect your glorious leaker .. err ... leader?

kim

Oh, holycow, you're so vegain, you thnk it's all about you. The point being that he has bought Joe Wilson's view of the matter, presumably the anti-semitic component, too, if you consider that he has unified Joe(poor fool), and that is some, though poor, evidence for his own intrinsic, if real well suppressed, proclivities. That has little to say to his motivation to prosecute. We are searching here for, anong other things, the sort of psychological state Libby might have been in re: his religion; and you've just played the religion card from your sleeve. Out of turn, too.
==================

SteveMG

Holycow:
Okay, so let me get this straight. Fitz is going after Libby because he is anti-semite?

No, your holiness.

The question on the table is whether Wilson has shown any anti-semitic proclivities.

And from that, whether Libby perceived Wilson as having prejudice and then acted, in part, to get back at Wilson for those sentiments. Recall that (reportedly) Libby called MSNBC to complain about what he thought was anti-semitism on the part of Chris Matthews who was parrotting the "neoconservatives are Jacobins" line (or words similar) at every opportunity.

Apparently Libby believes that the reckless use of "neoconservatives" is a code word for anti-Jewish sentiments.

Psychoanalysis of Libby more than Wilson; but both subjects are on the JOM couch.

Fitzgerald is waiting outside the room.

I'm not sure what TM is trying to do other than, as my late father used to say, throw the spaghetti in the fan and see if anyone
salutes it.

Only he didn't say "spaghetti."

SMG

willem

Previewing your Comment

Well, I think Fitz is indeed blinded by something. Essentially unsupervised and utterly self-directed he has ended up in what appears to be a huge mess. Bias causes wise men to behave as fools. It is an old story. Even for logic-trap-setting hyperbolic holycows that graze within fences of black and white, there are always shades of grey. And shadows. Something dark is in this Fitzgerald thing. Where we are today makes little sense. So, if not bias, then what? Perhaps it is merely a personality conflict in competition with an attraction -- but to what? The Law? Celebrity? Vanity? We should ask ourselves -- look within and ask ourselves what drives such bias that seems to have ignored so much that was discoverable? Was the bias professional or personal, or both? We shall soon see what good faith can be salvaged from Fitz's actions against Libby. So far, what I see raises questions of malicious prosecution. I keep wondering where is the good faith in this prosecution? When such things spin out of control, there is nearly always a personal bias or problem driving the blindness that leads to such a public display; a display that appears to be irrational, ill advised, excessive, and perhaps malicious.

Posted by: willem at Apr 8, 2006 1:58:18 AM

Javani

"It is easy to remove Jews and anti-semitism from the discussion. Imagine the world without Israel. Would it not be our role to police the world as benignly as possible?"

I don't think it is the US role to police the world though complainers about it sometimes change their minds, like with Liberia. The US polices, or stabilizes, the Middle East because of 1. oil and 2. the Suez choke point. With the end of the Vietnam war it was no longer needed for Israel to bar Russian and East Bloc supply ships to North Vietnam, so the Americans didn't care much about keeping the Israelis on the Suez after the '73 war.

As for the Middle East without Israel, it would be a much more unstable place. The Levant and Peninsula Arabs would lose an important unifying factor that binds them and distracts their populaces. There would be no semblance of Pan-Arab unity and brotherhood. Peaceability and shared identity among Arabs was strengthened, not stressed, by the creation of Israel. The current Iranian regime's obsession with Israel is better explained by psychiatry.

willem

Sidebar -- Has anyone read or heard anything about Libby being involved with the legal team of Marc Rich in his appeal to Clinton, which led to Rich being pardoned at the end of Clinton's second term? I did hear Rich's pardon was not well received at DOJ.

And there's this...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/02/clinton.library/

topsecretk9

Javani

Mary Jo White was Fitzgeralds boss and she was the prosecutor no?

I know she was not happy.

topsecretk9

oops, I meant Willem

Sue

I think Libby was Rich's attorney.

topsecretk9

Sue

Read Willem's link, it's interesting.

Sue

The link won't open for me.

topsecretk9

It's funny, I've never heard or read anything about Wilson being a "womanizer" (which connotes *cheater* to me) by anyone other than Wilson himself.

And another thing Wilson has said a number of times (can't bear to read through the Kos thing again to see if this is a duplicate here) is

--our kids were being sent to die for Israel--

...so, you know...things that make you go hmmm.

topsecretk9

See if this works, LINK

Sue

Top,

Thanks. It worked. This is another place where I think Congress overstepped its boundaries. The president has the power to pardon whether we like the person he pardons or not. There should not have been a hearing on that pardon. If we don't like the constitution, change it.

clarice

Rich was represented by Libby before Libby entered government service. He, however, had nothing to do with the pardon application.

topsecretk9

After reading the link, I wonder if there isn't an undercurrent of making good happening. It's still dumb. Fitz blew it in the press conference--the effect being either Libby gets the dismissal or giant poster boards of an epic.com bio.

clarice

I think Fitz is blinded. I'm not sure why. But my guess is the original bias was established in the intevstigation by FBI and CIA agents with a predisposition to regard Libby, a big critic of their agencies, as the bad guy.

kim

When it's only coming from Joe, the womanizer bit, it's probably a little bit of 'me thinks he protesteth overly much'. I got a great idea; let's ask Val. She may have a pretty good idea.

Javani, I'd like to extend the world policeman bit. Who else is keeping civil order? Sure a lot of places keep their own. We're trying to stabilize the places that don't do it well themselves. Perhaps in an ideal world the UN would perform this necessary international function, but in the meantime, be grateful the set--up we have makes it far more likely we'll act as a good cop. Sure it's all about trade, and commerce, and omigod big corporations, but peace is better than war, particularly for economic growth.
=================================

topsecretk9

Clarice

That's really what I think too. I mean the epic bio/ arab institue bios alone, the defense could argue-- what secret? Wilson inlcuded his wife Valerie Plame all over the internet BEFORE he wrote his own op-ed.

topsecretk9

Kim

When it's only coming from Joe, the womanizer bit, it's probably a little bit of 'me thinks he protesteth overly much'. I got a great idea; let's ask Val. She may have a pretty good idea.

Now Kim, I thought that too -chest thumping-...but then I thought AH...maybe a little bit of preemptive striking, damage control. When you think about it, that is what he does (literary flair)

kim

But why, C, the extraordinary insulation? This is more than ordinary blindness. Has he no one on his team who talks to him? Sure we know his supervision was occult, but what about the lawyers he worked with? Surely they know there is some controversy? Don't any of them read blogs?

Maybe his extraordinary work ethic is in fact destructive, that he focuses to the point of cocooning, and somehow he also must suppress dissent or curiosity. It's all such a dismaying mess, and but for the peculiarities and flaws of Fitz's character, justice would have been served inexpensively and without delay.
======================

kim

TSK9: Nuance ain't my strong suit, but what he said means he's looking for a date or pushing hard on the closet door from the inside.

Let's ask Val. Wussup, girl? I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Please?
=======================================

topsecretk9

Kim

Val could be a beard? ::grin::

Nuance is definitely not mine too, I thought he might have some un-wedded skeletons in the closet he might be afraid might be found out.

Rick Ballard

Kim,

A nice thing about a supervisor is the steadying hand that can be provided. Lack of such a hand can have pretty negative consequences.

Val was #3 and #2 had not been completely disposed of at the time she became enamored of the prevaricating fabricator. Why would anyone think he had changed? If things are a teeny bit tense when he's out town on his speaking jaunts before the fawning coeds, it wouldn't be a huge surprise would it?

clarice

kim, I doubt any of them read blogs. Last year I saw a friend who works at the Crim Div of DoJ and she has never read one and I doubt she is unique. I think there is way too much on Fitz' plate and he is cocooned.

ts, f Fitz is made to put up evidence that Plame was covert or that the agency took every ste to protect her identity, they will be wiping him off the ceiling.

The entire way Wilson was handled by the agency, including not putting him on any payroll could not have been better designed to keep Tenet or anyone else from knowing what was cooking. I think that's what contributed to the tardy response after the Kristof article.(No one in a position to respond had a clue what this was all about.)

clarice

Rick, Lord Goldsmith said it best (and he had plenty of experience):"A man who marries his mistress, creates an instant job opening."

SteveMG

It's fascinating reading the posts among the females on the Wilson's (alleged) womanizing issue.

A little peak behind the curtain, eh?

We talk sports and politics and money, ladies. Mostly sports. And really that's about it.

Okay, occasionally we talk about you guys; but don't let it go to your heads.

SMG

Rick Ballard

Some serial monogamists eventually reform but it is still wise to keep in mind the order of words in the appellation.

clarice

*thwack* He is the most unappealing person I can imagine. Stupid. Vain. Untrustworthy.

Closet Independent

Making a jump from "I really like women" -- based on that alone -- to "gay-baiting" is, well, leaping the Grand Canyon. Dumb.

kim

I like Bierce's but it's not particularly germane, just, perhaps describing the ideal. He described marriage as the state of a household with a master, a mistress, and two slaves, making in all, two.
=======================

willem

Well looky here... and revealed unto all by the master's own hand.

You can almost hear the whyne, feel the slither and smell the slime.

"... Finally, and importantly, many present and former high-ranking Israeli officials of both major political parties, and leaders of Jewish communities in America and Europe, urged the pardon of Mr. Rich because of his contributions and services to Israeli charitable causes, to the Mossad's efforts to rescue and evacuate Jews from hostile countries, and to the peace process through sponsorship of education and health programs in Gaza and the West Bank. ..."

Oh, and I suppose they made him do the blue dress too...

See the rest at: http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2001/022301f.htm

Anti-semitism isn't just a problem among the post-modern 'progressive' democrats, it's a meme.

kim

I don't want a pickle.
Jus' wanna ride on my motorcickle.
And I don't want to die.
Jus' wanna ride on my motorsie.

To make the tippy hat tricky we'll note Knievel and the Guthries.
=======================================

kim

I'm sure you know jews are fleeing Europe. There was a lot kristellin windshielden knocked in smithereens and screams in Paris.
===============================

willem

I think I stumbled on to where the DNC and Howard Dean are getting their talking points. Yeah. This is definitely where Howard and Koz get their stuff. Scroll down. It's uncanny; literally point-for-point.

http://www.meguiar.addr.com/Bush%20&%20Edomites.htm

The symmetry of the insanities are stunning.

It's a meme. And quite a dangerous one at that.

topsecretk9

"A man who marries his mistress, creates an instant job opening."

Love it.

topsecretk9

--It's fascinating reading the posts among the females on the Wilson's (alleged) womanizing issue.

A little peak behind the curtain, eh?

We talk sports and politics and money, ladies. Mostly sports. And really that's about it.

Okay, occasionally we talk about you guys; but don't let it go to your heads.

SMG

--

SMG -

Real guys talk

--sports and politics and money,Mostly sports. And really that's about it.-- with a few cracks about boobs and asses if the waitress at the restraurnat you happen to be talking sports, politics and money, but mostly sports about -- is really smokin'

AND if you don't say it, you all know you are all thinking it.


Wilson OTH

is the very important me with very important hair guy who is so self-aware, every piece of you know what is to be conquered cuz they all want him, he just know it

You know the guy SMG, you know you do.

topsecretk9

Classy guy....this link to a link goes out to..... Larwyn

MORE ON JOE WILSON, CLASS ACT [Jonah Goldberg ]
Charming guy. For the record, I've seen Bill Kristol at a lot of social events. I can't recall seeing a drink in his hand, let alone seeing him drunk.

MayBee

Walter Pincus didn't know he was married. Which says something, but I don't know what, about a 53-year old man.

The womanizing stuff is all his own doing, I agree Top. That man is TMI- telling us about his third date heavy make out session with Val while his wife waited in the seperate bedroom at home. He thinks it makes him sound hot.

SMG-
womanizing issue.
A little peak behind the curtain, eh?

If there's a little peak behind the curtain, it makes me wonder what you're up to.

topsecretk9

Maybee

Extroidanrialry tacky.

*Makes him sound hot* is right.

The weird thing to me Maybee, and what I think is the obvious clue, is why this strong, intelligent, capable AK-47 women is OK with her husband defining her?

Val doesn't like it when I say "douche bag" so here let me say it "DB"

Val told me "frogmarch" was harsh, so here let me say it again


I keep Val at home in tupperware so I can come out and say things she rather me not?

I

MayBee

Another university, and here it is again:
He said he hoped that the Iraqi constitution vote had failed, not because he wanted to see the administration fail but because he believed a negative vote would cause America and others to rethink their strategy and ``go back to the drawing board.''

``I fear what the administration will do is declare victory and move on,'' Wilson said. ``That will just institutionalize the violence in the country.''

Some in the audience urged him to run for political office. But Wilson said he'd been a true child of the 1960s and had ``too many wives and taken too many drugs. And, yes, I did inhale.''

But he said he remained fueled by the optimism of the 1960s and the belief that America could ``once again become a beacon of hope for the rest of the world.''

soooo hottt.

I don't understand it either, TS. Here's this obviously capable woman with this husband toting her to Vanity Fair photo shoots, talking about his sex life, and doing verbal foreplay in public with his Jane Bond schtick.
All while she's suffering post-partum depression.

topsecretk9

But Wilson said he'd been a true child of the 1960s and had ``too many wives and taken too many drugs. And, yes, I did inhale.'

You know I never thought about it but what's "too many wives gotta do with it"? Plenty of congressman and senators who've been divorced and remarried a plenty.

Code for "I'm Bill Clinton" is what I hear, and a few too many jennifer Flowers lurk for him to take an official plunge...

topsecretk9

Maybee

Actually, I was being a little sarcastic. I think Val is the brains of the family, even if she doesn't realize it *overtly*.

No way a wife allows their husband to trot around the country saying such pugnacious crud ( that she presumably takes issue with) without reprisal or demands that he really cool it ---unless she is engaging and encouraging it.

Which is what I think.

willem

Lordy, MayBee.. and then there's the children, the public record, and their coming to terms with it down the road. I don't mind that men like Wilson self-destruct, but that they do so much damage on the way down. He's on his third time around with fresh start and infants, and he compromises his wife's privacy to sell a book? What a malignant thing for him to do. What will his children think of this twenty years from now when they read their father's story of their mother? An ichy-faced crackhead has more sense.

larwyn

What is going on with Bob Woodward and David Corn?

I just read Woodward's letter, he uses Corn's previous posts to prove that he is lying in the recent post re Woodward.

Is this just some pre-emptive move by Corn against Woodward? or WaPo? or what? - as he knows much
is due to come down on his own head?

Last time I saw him on FOX he was sticking up for Charlie Sheen. Is he finally as crazy as he looks?


Bob Woodward Chastises The Nation’s David Corn For Being “Dishonest” and “Unfair”

NewsBusters.org
Posted by Noel Sheppard on April 6, 2006 - 17:20.

If two women squabbling is a “cat fight,” would two men going after one another be a “dog fight?” Regardless, The Washington Post’s Bob “Watergate” Woodward is in the middle of quite a war of words with The Nation’s David “Tax the Rich” Corn that, of course, goes counter to their pacifistic proclivities. The melee began last Friday when Corn published a blog piece suggesting that Woodward’s book “Plan of Attack” did not accurately depict a January 2003 conversation at the White House between President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair. On April 4, Woodward struck back. In a letter published at Corn’s blog at The Nation, Woodward began:


“I was genuinely shocked to read your recent column "Woodward and Reality." The column is thoroughly dishonest and represents another low for journalism. Apparently facts don't matter to you if you think you can score a point.”

Of course, this could be said of most antique media reporting. Regardless, round one went to Woodward. .....

If you haven't seen it yet - you're missing a real hoot.

I've had my days and nights mixed up for past 3 days - think I may get lucky and get to sleep before sunrise tonight. Hope I can catch up with thread tomorrow.

Patton

Boris says "The pander party used to pander to white privilige""

Ohh, so those KKK lynchings..that was pandering?

Patton

It was Corn who outed Plame as possibly an undercover agent.

Wilson has even said that when Novaks story came out....he didn't even think about the outing of his wife. HE CLAIMS CORN BROUGHT UP THE IDEA TO HIM.

Now if Plame really was covert...would Wilson need Corn to point that out to him??

Patton

It appears alot of posters here are unfamiliar with how the intelligence communtiy works..so let's clarify.

The Director CIA is also the DCI, he has control/oversight of all the intelligence assets at State/DOE/DoD, etc. that have a part in producing the countries intelligence.

The President doesn't get separate intelligence from a dozen agencies and has to spend his days decididng who's estimates/conclusion are right or wrong...he gets the DCIs assessment.

This is also critical because not all agencies have all the intelligence. THE CIA AND SOMETIMES THE STATE DEPT AND NSA HAVE THE MOST SUPER SECRET, CLOSE HOLD INFORMATION THAT IS THE MOST CRITICAL AND ISN'T EVEN SHARED WITH THE OTHER AGENCIES.

So where the DOE may say that the aluminum tubes aren't the 'most suitable' for centrufuges, That is the 'technical' assessment based on their technical expertise. The CIA may have a HUMINT sources or other information that bears directly on the point. They may even have Saddam/henchman on the telephone discussing it with his scientists...but DOE may not be told about that.

So the NIEs conclusions are what the President relies on.

It is perfectly REASONABLE to say that YES Saddam was attempting to purchase tubes for Nuclear work and at the SAME time assess that the tubes he was getting weren't going to do the best job at it.

Its like saying we have intelligence that says 18 Al Queda terrorists are going to hijack airplanes, but TSA says that they are only armed with box cutters and box cutters are the best suited weapon for taking ovr an aircraft. It is the terrorists INTENT that counts, not the suitability of his weapon.

willem

Patton, you hit the nail on the head.. it's the intent that counts, especially that which people intend to do no matter what.

I don't know how anti-semitic his bias is, but there appears to be a lack of good faith in the Fitz prosecution of Libby. Certainly, Bill Clinton didn't help things when he shamelessly engaged in jew-baiting to deflect the storm of criticism over why he decided to pardon Marc Rich. Given Libby's role in the Marc Rich affair, I think Fitz will torment him as long as he can. If there's corrupting bias on Fitz's part, it's probably that.

And then we have Wilson's foreign consulting relationships reported at the time, I think Wilson would have hosed Bush no matter what. And vermin like David Corn-Naransky want us to believe Wilson's moral outrage to defend his violated wife somehow reconciles with a willingness to use his 'conquest' of her to help sell his book.

There's the intent to get to the truth, and then again there's the intent to cause harm. In the case of both Wilson and Fitz, it appears less the former and more the latter.

topsecretk9

Hey Thanks Larwym ,

for the Woodward/Corn link...that was interesting. I see David Corn is still up to his old tricks in writing, as SMG's dad says - take a big old pile of spaghetti, throw in on you computer screen and see what sticks.

richard mcenroe

"The floodgates have opened for all of the critics-of-Israel as being Jew-haters."

Because, y'know, we should really be going after those villainous Swedes at the heart of the "international Zionist conspiracy" as revealed in The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Stockholm."

Patton

We found the difference between what we thought our enemies capabilities were and what they really were was very diferent because in many cases we didn't take into account the enemies mindset and intent.

I know we did assessments on Societ fighters that showed the couldn't perform nearly as good as our own because the soviets were still building them with steal and other metals while we were using composite materials.

Then we find out when they flew them that they outperformed our own jets, and the technical experts were shocked that the Soviets had managed to beat some of our capabilities with what they considered old technology.

But our experts didn't THINK LIKE A SOVIET, they thought like an American with American education and background and training.

Years later we found out how the Societs did it and some things they broke new ground with old materials, but on some things we simply found that the Societs were
faking it.

Sure their jet could fly faster, but we didn't know that that one flight would basically destroy the engines and they'd have to be replaced.

Or the one flight (Meant to impress us) destroyed the Wings and they had to be replaced.

Our guys thought you build things to work well for 10 years with minimal maintenance while they built some stuff to impress with little thought to on-going operational capability or maintenance.

SO GETTING BACK TO THE TUBES, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS OF THOSE SIMPLY DOING A TECHNICAL ASSESSMENT OF A SINGLE PART.

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Wilson/Plame