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May 19, 2006

Comments

Kate

I wonder if the TalkLeft lady regretted quoting Wayne Madsen yesterday. His posting today said all DC is anxiously awaiting an announcement regarding an announcement from the SP office regarding a major development in the Rove case. There will be a press conference in the afternoon. We will be standing by.

Is he still standing by? I think he is nuttier than Jason. And I got the sense that everyone is DC was pretty laid back.

Sara (Squiggler)

Spector, I have a clean domain that allows up to 2500 email boxes. If you need a clean one, let me know. LOL

Lurker

An emailer called Jonah Goldberg sloppy, sloppy, Leopold's Lobe

But then the emailer forgot about Will Pitt's new post over at DU:

" Pitt asserts on DU that it's still on

From William Rivers Pitt on Democratic Underground's discussion board:

Those who have stood with truthout are owed a massive river of thanks. Your faith will be rewarded.

Those who have expressed doubts, and await further confirmation, are totally above reproach. If I didn't know what I know, if I was a DUer out of the fact loop truthout has been in, I'd be doing and saying exactly the same things.

Those who have made this personal - with me, with each other - should stop.

truthout was right on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, yesterday and today. We will still be right tomorrow and Friday, no matter what the goddam unbelievable lapdog mainstream media has to say (or more to the point, doesn't have to say) about it.

I understand your frustrations at the way this has played out; in fact, I call your frustration and raise it a billionfold. There are good reasons for this, and those reasons will be made clear when everything comes out. Those good reasons haven't made the process easier.

by Phoenix6 on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 03:10:30 PM EDT"

Plus Wayne Marsden...

All still standing by Jason Leopold, now regardless of whether Rove will get indicted in 5 or ten years!

Sara (Squiggler)

Well everyone, since it is now 4:02 PM on the West Coast, I am shutting down the "watch tower" for this week. Drinks are on me.

PeterUK

Personally,I think Truthout should stick to its guns,all credit their adherence to principles.
You should go back Specter and tell them.

verner

Clarice,

WE know that Novak said it was a non-partisan type, but notice how as late as 2005, the VIPS were stating otherwise.

And also notice, Goodman clings to the fantasy that ALL the Niger docs were forgeries, when we know that only a few were forgeries. The Butler Review, and British Intel confirmed that.

But like a true Soviet style um...expert, and CIP only accepts the soviet-friendly-- Goodman continues to repeat the big lie to a willing audience.

He kind of put his own MO and gameplan on the table by "protesting too much" about the "covert-op" nature of Cheney and company IMHO--I bet Freud had a term for it.

And notice the fallback--it's not really about Valerie Plame's idenity. Maybe because he already knew that outing a desk jockey, whose husband had outed many many times, and who hadn't been NOC for a very long time was not illegal.

Kate

Ah, a fact loop. That's it.

Specter

LOL Squiggler....If I need it I'll let you know. But Marc has already banned all gmail, yahoo, and hotmail accounts. LOL - I could cut his popluation in half. But it is more fun watching them all console each other. Here's another one:

Your time would be better spent calling your own local paper and asking them how they manage to avoid seeing the assault rifles KGB pointed at senior citizens yet they are seemingly tripping over an immigrant protester at every crack in the sidewalk.

Smokescreen !!!!!

Has anyone else noticed how these new personalities jump to the support of Mr. Thomas?? Just curious.
*****great spirits have always been met with violent opposition****** SUSPECT # 509960399*** Under surveillance by the Department of Homeland Security

Lurker

Oh, one TO poster still insist that TO is redeemed if Rove gets indicted in six months because Jason had the story first.

And now they are saying that the neocons have taken over this country, neocons are negative, and all they want is Rove indicted, one way or the other.

" Here's What We'll Know and When
OK, here's the timetable: if Rove is not known to be indicted by a week from tomorrow, i.e., what people commonly call "next" Saturday, then truthout will have an additional week to consider producing sources. At that conclusion of that additional week (assuming, obviously, that Rove still has not been publicly indicted), truthout's sources will have a week to respond. Meanwhile, none of us will have had a bowel movement for 4 weeks, as our souls remain in suspension. BTW, if Rove is indicted in, say, six months, then truthout is redeemed -- they had the story first!"

~and~

" With people like you it's not wonder
the neocons have taken over this country. Where is your courage, backbone and fortitude? You don't know TO, you're not a loyalist to the community and you just keep rattling off at the mouth with no substance. Take the negativity somewhere else and give us a break........pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!!!!!"

~and~

" the mistake...
whatever, maybe and maybe not, but the point is, we want Rove indicted, one way or the other..."

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

Isn't there a (3)? He was asked and had a spell of Arkansas Alzheimers; "Gee, I just don't recall any others." You can't be indicted for that one.

clarice

Knowing what we do about Sheuer, Pillar, Goodman, McGovern and Johnson, I wondered who hired and oversaw these idiots (err, analysts). I have never seen such a coterie of crackpots in my life. If we can't do better than this, we should just shut the expensive nuthouse down and start over with a small humint operation.

PeterUK

Verner,
"He kind of put his own MO and gameplan on the table by "protesting too much" about the "covert-op" nature of Cheney and company IMHO--I bet Freud had a term for it."

Will "Penis Envy" do?

clarice

Certainly, Rick but if Woodward is telling the truth, he is in trouble, because Woodward says he reminded Armitage of the disclosure and twice asked for permission to tell Fitz about it.

Specter

lurker,

The funny thing about that post by Pitt at DU is that Phoenix6 was using it to bolster TO's spirits this evening and Pitt posted it on Wednesday. Spin....Spin....Spin...Fall Down

Lurker

Porter Goss tried his best and got some changes done. Now I hope Hayden will finish it up that Porter wasn't able to finish up.

And what should Hayden do once he is confirmed?

1. Shrink CIA
2. Get rid of McCarthy's worker bees.
3. Improve intelligence and send more intelligence agents out.

what else?

Specter

What I could actually hear of the Hayden hearings he was smooth. Sounded great.

PeterUK

GENOA GAZETTE 1491,
Jasoni Leopoldi,said today,"There is nothing on the other side of that"

clarice

Replace all the WMD analysts who missed Pakistan, Libya and who have no scientific background.
Fire all Soviet analysts who missed the collapse of the USSR (I was there twice in early '80's,came back and reported it was over over there..2 two week tours there (taking depositions) and it was obvious. Only people as stupid as Goodman could miss it.
Make everyone who works there sign a pledge (ditto with DoS) that they will not go on the Saudi payroll in any way --that includes S.A. funded think tanks after separation from the agency.

For starters.

Cecil Turner

The probability that Armitage was asked a question that would have required his disclosing his conversation with Woodward is no greater than 0.5? I would place it at around 0.99, unless this prosecution team is inept beyond my imagination.

Don't know if they're terribly inept, but it's obvious they aren't overly stressed about the actual leak. And I didn't say it wasn't greater than .5, I said I have no way of knowing it is. I'd further suggest you don't, either.

Sue

Patrick,

No wonder Scary Larry likes him. They have the same script when what they say bites them on the hiney...

verner

And another thing Clarice. We are so very concerned about the fact that Val was outed, and anyone in the last 10 years that she had dealings with is now in danger thanks to Bob Novak and the evil Bushies, but what about Melissa Boyle Mahle? She was covert too n'est pas? And she was on Booknotes with Dana Priest! Then there's Robert Baer...

Notice how Mahle and Baer have signed a few VIPS type petitions?

Mahle's book was published by the Nation, and Clooney played Baer. Poor old Larry Johnson, he must feel shortchanged.

cathyf
This story can be sliced several ways:

(1)....

(2)....

(3) Nothing at all.

(4) ....

Fair enough. Ok, isn't it true that the combination of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" plus "presumption of innocence" means that when there is more than one reasonable story, if at least one of those stories is innocent, then the defendent is innocent?

cathy :-)

ghostcat

Why would Andrea Mitchell call the situation at the end of November 2005 "a mess" and why would she add that "everybody involved" had stepped in said mess?

I've always found that statement, following on the heels of the V. Novak and Woodward bombshells, to be verrry interesting.

My pet theory is that Woodward, Mitchell, Russert, et al had woven a tangled web of deceptive nuances to keep Powell out of the story ... certainly out of the GJ. They were hoping that Fitz wouldn't indict anyone. When Libby got hit, their reaction was "Oh, sh*t, now what do we do?"

The Raporter (sic) was the first to break ranks. Strongest conscience? Bravest? Or did he and others simply agree that he was the mouse most likely to bell the cat without incurring The Wrath of Fitz?

All rhetorical questions. Perhaps TIME will tell.

clarice

Yes. Unless of course it's rape and you are listening to one of those cutie FNC legal analysts..

Lurker

Interesting, Clarice. Did they listen to you when you reported that Russia was about to collapse?

What about state of the art equipment? Has CIA upgraded its equipment?

They also need to sign something that they agree that they work for the WH, cannot leak, and cannot discuss anything once they leave the CIA. Something like that.

"he probability that Armitage was asked a question that would have required his disclosing his conversation with Woodward is no greater than 0.5? I would place it at around 0.99, unless this prosecution team is inept beyond my imagination.

Don't know if they're terribly inept, but it's obvious they aren't overly stressed about the actual leak. And I didn't say it wasn't greater than .5, I said I have no way of knowing it is. I'd further suggest you don't, either."

When Fitz indicted Libby, Fitz thought that Libby was the actual leaker. I still don't understand why Fitz is still continuing with the Libby case if Armitage went to him with the truth that he leaked before Libby.

Lurker

Ah...interesting...

Marc Ash offered a partial apology:

Partial Apology

Does it mean that Marc will lift the ban this time?

verner

Clarice, I didn't visit the USSR, but I did attend a super duper expo of cutting edge Soviet technology in the early '80s. It looked like something out of a 1950 sci-fi B movie. That's when I knew.

They should have listened to Robert Conquest...

jerry

Well, ok, if Fitzonner isn't after Rove (if Rove's made a deal)... who's he after? Lurking in the fog, like a wolf.

I can only imagine big big names at this point... if Rove, Armitage, Hadley, and a crowd of other are all cooperating with the prosecution, who's left as a target?

I can only see a giant shoe falling now: go go Godzilla, watch out Bambi!

PeterUK

Lurker,
"The time has now come, however, to issue a partial apology to our readership for this story. While we paid very careful attention to the sourcing on this story, we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle. In moving as quickly as we did, we caused more confusion than clarity. And that was a disservice to our readership and we regret it."

Is news cycle a euphemism for truth?

Specter

Way too funny. They are just ahead of their time.

Tollhouse

A partial apology? Belly laugh on that one.

We erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle.

JUST WAIT ANOTHER WEEK, PROMISE.

Some critical thinking goin' on.

Seixon

Love the non-apology apology at Truthout.

Kate

I read that apology...what does that mean?

Why don't they just say that Jason likes to make stuff up.

Specter

I'm not sure what that meant, but Jason's story was completely wrong. Now they back pedal more to try to make it sound like because MSM doesn't cover the story....like if the regular press had covered the story it would be more true and Rove would have been marched off to jail today.....No spin there.

Rick Ballard

"While we paid very careful attention to the sourcing on this story,"

by hiring a second medium who confirmed Madame Cleo's first report...

Barney Frank

Lurker,

Armitage was extremely skeptical of the war prior to its beginning. He duly supported it after it began but I seem to recall more than one article by Novak quoting Armitage's objections, pre war.
Armitage is also the chap who told us Iran is quite a nice little democracy, so what he has to say about the mid east should be liberally dosed with salt.

Lurker

"

Clarice, I didn't visit the USSR, but I did attend a super duper expo of cutting edge Soviet technology in the early '80s. It looked like something out of a 1950 sci-fi B movie. That's when I knew.

They should have listened to Robert Conquest..."

The Russian Space Agency used their own Soviet technology for their own control center for their own MIR and Soyuz's; yet, our own computer technology kept forging ahead at the speed of light, so to speak.

I don't know about now. I'm sure they have upgraded in the last few years.

Kate

OK...I've got the translation.

We paid very careful attention to our sources. Joe, Larry, Wayne and the boys were getting really impatient with the delay in getting Rove indicted. They decided to pick up the pace and decided to pretend it happened last Friday and passed the fiction on to Jason, who reported it too early, gettting ahead of the news cycle.

Bad news cycle, bad.

Jane

If they paid such close attention to the sourcing they should make good on Jason's promise, and reveal those fabulous sources.

They have already proven they lack the integrity of a gnat, so what's holding them back?

Lurker

Will Marc Ash publish another Jason Leopold article?

We will take the wait and see approach, too.

Other Tom

Cecil, your words were "I'm not willing to speculate that either probability is above .5..." That seems to me pretty close to opining that each is 0.5 or lower, and not very close to saying you had no way of knowing, but I won't quibble. My only basis for my own speculation is thousands of hours of cross-examining witnesses under oath, and I don't pretend to have any knowledge of what this bunch has been doing. But in any event, I had forgotten about Armitage's refusal to release Woodward, of which Clarice has now reminded me, and I will defer to the inference she draws from it. I do believe that the likelihood that, if asked, he knowingly lied, is minuscule.

Sue

Thank you for keeping us updated
This was a fine response. No apology needed. I am glad you took the risk and you confirmed my faith in you.
Practice tolerance, kindness and charity.

Someone log in over there and use my name and tell that nut to STFU. Thanks in advance. ::grin::

Specter

That is lwelsch who said that and he is indeed a moron.

clarice

Lurker, I went under a special agreement too take depositions. I was in Moscow, L'vov and Riga. We were at the time (1980-1984) the only offical US delegations allowed in, we had no official minders, we were there to do work and had to negotiate ordinary life to so it. Aside from the food shortages, backward retail structure, and housing which was dreadful even for the relatively privileged and the general deterioration of the infrastructure, watching the govt work was the tipoff.
It was like working in the 1920's. We worked out of the Procurator's Offices which were, of course, shared by the KGB. In each office there was a single not very good electric typewriter. All records were typed on cheap paper with cheap carbon paper all of which had to be accounted for. Wach office has a xerox type machine, but we had to go up the hierarchy several steps to get anything copies and elaborate records were kept of each copy.

Well, you get the idea. Either they maintained communications control and sunk further or let up and lose control. It was that simple.

And then there was flying..On internal flights, the planes had no radar. (guess why?) So if the weather was bad on the route, you had to wait in som waiting area forever. There we were segregated and has better accommodation than Soviets but landing in L'vov in the middle of the night was a scene out of Tolstoy..countless people waiting got knows how long in cheap black boots, crappy coats--all fully dressed because the waiting area had no room to put one's belongings anywhere..
I could go on, but the point was, that the collapse was coming was obvious.

verner

PeterUK,

Penis envy is good...

If you've seen a pic of Mel Goodman, you'll know that Cheney is most certainly hotter, and more popular with the chicks.

What I was thinking of was more along the lines of Projection.

Barney Frank

Well perhaps Mel doesn't project very far. ;)

PeterUK

Rick,
What more could they have done,they made the sacrifice,examined the entrail,offered the customary prayers,made their obeisances,the drumming and chanting lasted through the night.
We have gone beyond "Fake but accurate" to the realms of "Inaccurate but True".

clarice

Forgive my typos on the USSR post--I think they are too obvious to bothet with tardy corrections.

In any event, the second time I went, I truly had culture shock when I got to Frankfurt airport. In such a small time, I had been reduced like everyone else to thinking of personal care on such a primitive basis--Will I be able to get anything to eat at the hotel before the long work day began? Would there be hot water to take a shower? How could I get dry when the only towel was a threadbare one the size of a US dish towel..

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

Is there any reason why Armitage might not have gone quietly to Fitz right after the first time Woodward reminded him? That's a possible explanation of him not releasing Woodward - no need and no reason to allow Woodward to write anything. Armitage could have been fuzzy with the dates with Fitz which would allow Fitz to plunge ahead with his concoction. Woodward hears Fitz say "first", looks at his notes and goes to Armitage who realizes that "fuzzy" dates won't cut it any longer.

It's a stretch but I can't get to Armitage lying after having received absolution from Powell. For all we know, Powell could have alibied Armitage to Fitz.

clarice

Rick, I can't figure it out. As I recall a number of reporters got released from their pledge only for the purpose of testifying and not for the purpose of publicly revealing their sources.

And IIRC, Armitage gave Woodward the waiver only when he'd decided to go to the SP.

Rick Ballard

Peter,

My personal favorite speculation is that someone "in the know" fed Munchausen a dish of couch prawns (with malice aforethought) which he then dished out to his favorite press pimps. A Topsy tale then ensued and Without Truth fell for it like PT Barnum's favorite customers.

Clarice,

You're right, although it's as if I'm hearing it etc. Fitz is lucky that he only has to provide reports to his invisible superiors through the media.

topsecretk9

we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle. In moving as quickly as we did, we caused more confusion than clarity. And that was a disservice to our readership and we regret it.

What? What? Too far out...they said 24 HOURS...24 HOURS -- IT HAS BEEN 40 **BUSINESS HOURS** !!!

What a J O K E. Not only are they IGNORING they said 24 Hours, they are now blaming everyone else?

TRUTH NOT

Specter

More from LWelsch at TO. ROFLMAO. Truer words were never spoken over there:

As TruthOut develops a better understanding over time, perhaps weeks or months, I am certain they will give us their perspective. That is all I ask.

You are right that we should not ask for information they may not know.

PeterUK

Rick,
Ah Yes! Truthout,"This way to the Egress".

Sara (Squiggler)

pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!!!!!

Any good dissenter knows it should be written:

puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!!!!!

Case closed.

JM Hanes

Speaking of Miller (someone's mentioned Miller right?), it was interesting to look back at her http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1016-01.htm>testimony, from a different perspective now. Among all sorts of odds & ends, I'd forgotten she had said this: "[Libby] asserted that George J. Tenet, then the director of central intelligence, had never even heard of Mr. Wilson."

Barney Frank

Clarice,

Could you please clarify again the 'fixed idea' you mention at 3:55 as the reason for the limitations of Fitz's investigation?
It cannot be solely that Fitz was seeking those out to punish Wilson the noble whistleblower or he would have been interested in Armitage as well.
Are you saying the fixed idea is it had to be someone in the WH who was out to punish Wilson?
If so its hard to see the reasoning he would use to reach that idea. If it was partisanship, the more the merrier even if it was someone from the State Dept tossed in with Rove Libby and Cheney. Number two at State would be a large fish to fry as well.
Which only leaves, as far as I can see, the motive of Fitz being profoundly retarded, which doesn't seem likely. He may not be a genius but he doesn't seem too dumb to even know where to look.

clarice

Are you saying the fixed idea is it had to be someone in the WH who was out to punish Wilson?

That's exactly what I'm saying and I'm not making that up out of the ether. For example, he's said there were good leaks and bad leaks and he was concentrated on those "bad" leaks which were designed to punish a whistleblower.Moreover, he limited his questioning to those people Libby and Rove remembered having spoken to..ignoring David Corn, for example. Or Andrea Mitchell.

clarice

Barney, I've lived here for over 4 decades and I can tell you that someone who thinks he can trace a report like this months later with certainty is a moron.

Beto Ochoa

"...designed to punish a whistleblower..."
Wasn't that a level of hell in Dante's Inferno?

Sara (Squiggler)

WHAT? WHAT? ... again WHAT?

Among all sorts of odds & ends, I'd forgotten she had said this: "[Libby] asserted that George J. Tenet, then the director of central intelligence, had never even heard of Mr. Wilson."

Since I came late to this story, I do not have to add the caveat "as if" to hearing this for the first time.

This seems to me to be a VERY big point. Has Team Libby anywhere focused in on this statement? Has any news outlet?

PeterUK

Clarice,
"bad" leaks which were designed to punish a whistleblower."

"Whistleblower", another fixed idea.

PeterUK

Clarice,
Would it be a good idea to list the fixed ideas,all the "givens" which pollute this case?

clarice

Yes. He bought the VIPs-Corn_Wilson lie hook line and sinker..I think that MAY be because people in Comey's office briefed this to him that way and the investigators who began work before he came into the case got that line from the CIA.

I missed that part of JM's report, but it doesn't surprise me. I said early on the Mission was designed to leave NO PAPER TRAIL. and one of the reasons the WH was so slow to respond is that they had no idea what was going on. (Though , possums, high officials at DoS did, didn't they?)Add that to Hadley's move in dropping the 16 words and it gave the lie legs.

clarice

PUK-- Why not? Start it, please.

Beto Ochoa

This investigation is boiling down to pure Vaudevillian slapstick. The last time I saw a prosecutor go off the tracks this blindly was Ronnie Earle letting a cop killer off with three years because his office couldn't remember what the bastard had done. By the time they snapped it was too late, the judge had already signed off on the plea arrangement.

Sara (Squiggler)

Fixed idea #1:

Administration officials and especially the OVP were more interested in whispering gossip than they were in advancing truth.

Seixon

Kate,

I think your "translation" is spot-on. Basically, Truthout reported a story that wouldn't turn out to be true for an undetermined amount of time... but it will be some time in the future... we promise!

Geez. I guess Leopold will write another article about how imminent an indictment for Cheney is now so everyone will forget about this flap with Rove.

Barney Frank

Clarice,

This is where I get lost. If he is doing this for partisan reasons then it seems he would want to fry anyone in the administration he could get his paws on, even outside the WH; State for instance. I mean, partisans digging into scandals like them as big as they can make them. Partisans throw as big a net as they can.
If he's not doing it for partisan reasons its hard to see what the fixed idea could be that would make some leaks about the whistle blower and his wife good and some bad. If it was just ambition, again, it seems he would be after any fish he could fry.
I agree that he seems to have bizarrely limited his inquiry, but other than him being a complete and profound idiot I can't see why he did.

clarice

Fixed Idea # 2 Wilson was a whistleblower and the fact that his story was utterly false is irrelevan.

Patton

Oh it was all just a dream, but I'm home now.

I went to this terrible place called MucnhkinTon DC; where this mean witch Fitz was after us, and Armitage the Lion, and Rove the Tin Man, and Scooter the Scarecrow were all there.

And there was Joe the Wizard who screamed terrible things and Fitz the witch jumped when he screamed. And Judy was there and her little dog Cooper who barked and barked.

But then Novak pulled back the curtain and we found Valerie pulling the wizards strings, and Woodward waiting in the wings
and when he threw his bucket of truth onto Fitz the witch, he melted and melted and his case disappeared.

But its OK, I'm home now, with all my friends. Aunt Clarice, Uncle Peter and all the rest, I can sleep now.

Good night.

clarice

Barney..I don't know if his motives are partisan. I think the people who handed him the map may have been.(My spidey sense about Comey's office grows by the day). I also since the first information provided the investigators came from the same people who prepared the (to me) obviously fraudulent referral letter.

How many times have we all been misled by colleagues who are wrong or devious?

Barney Frank

Clarice,

I could have reduced my last post to this question;
Is this investigation the result of politics or the Peter principle?
I suspect the latter myself.

Rick Ballard

#1: Administration officials and especially the OVP were more interested in whispering gossip than they were in advancing truth.
#2: Wilson was a whistleblower and the fact that his story was utterly false is irrelevan.
#3 Valerie Plame was "covert" within the meaning of IIPA.

Chants

Fixed Ideas:

Plame was an undercover/ covert agent.

Wilson was a whistle-blower.

The 16 words were false.

The preseident lied about the intelligence.

The source of the leak was the White House.

The prupose of the leak was punitive.

Brewster-Jennings was a viable front.

NOCs can and do travel to and from the CIA regularly.

Joe WIlson made findings based on his trip to Niger.

The Whitehouse ignored Joe Wilson's findings.

The CIA would not have made a referral to the Just. Dept. if Plame were not covert.

The INR Memo clearly showed that Plame's status was a sensitive matter.

Wilson debunked the Niger forgeries.

The president's 16 words were based on the Niger forgeries.

Jeff Gannon was leaked classified information contained in the INR memo.

Larry Johnson is a Republican.

The Plame leak harmed national security.

It is hard to conceive of what evidence there could be that would disprove the existence of White House efforts to 'punish' Wilson.


clarice

Pretty good list.

Bareny, I think this is a dreadfully managed prosecution and investigation. I see no sign that Fitz is partisan but there is every reason to think those who set him on this course were.

Rick Ballard

#1: Administration officials and especially the OVP were more interested in whispering gossip than they were in advancing truth.
#2: Wilson was a whistleblower and the fact that his story was utterly false is irrelevan.
#3 Valerie Plame was "covert" within the meaning of IIPA.
#4 Joe Wilson debunked obvious forgeries concerning Iraqi attempts to purchase Nigeri uranium.
#5 The 16 words were false.
#6 The preseident lied about the intelligence.
#7 The source of the leak was the White House.
#8 The prupose of the leak was punitive.
#9 Brewster-Jennings was a viable front.
#10 NOCs can and do travel to and from the CIA regularly.
#11 Joe WIlson made findings based on his trip to Niger.
#12 The Whitehouse ignored Joe Wilson's findings.
#13 The CIA would not have made a referral to the Just. Dept. if Plame were not covert.
#14 The INR Memo clearly showed that Plame's status was a sensitive matter.
#15 The president's 16 words were based on the Niger forgeries.
#16 Jeff Gannon was leaked classified information contained in the INR memo.
#17 Larry Johnson is a Republican.
#18 The Plame leak harmed national security.

PeterUK

Firstly,Plame was covert,no proof has been offered for this,later she migrated to classified,Her job decription seems to have morphed into WMD analyst specialising in non-proliferation.Plame's CV reveals no academic qualifications that make her suitable for the job.

Damage to US security,this is dependent on the above,again no proof.

Wilson was a gallant "Whistleblower who debunked the Niger forgeries,his qualifications are as redundant as his wife's.More seriously how did he learn the contents of the forged documents?

"Outing as a punishment",dependent on the first and so ludicrous as a concept of punishment as to be bizarre.
The Plame/Wilsons have subsequently continued to rise and rise,what deletoriuos consequences have there been?

As for "outing" by senior administration figures,I go with Patton's stance,that it was too high risk for virtually no result,Plame was low level "help",those of elevated rank do not notice the "help".

This case has got so bogged down with the minutia of who said what to whom and when that certain assumptions have never been properly challenged.
But then,that is probably the idea.

owl

Clarice or someone.. help me out on what someone called the invisible supervisors. Yesterday IIRC York posted what Gonzales said....that it wasn't him. I know they fought about this in court and lost. So who is in charge of supervising Fitz? Sorry if I slept through the results..

PeterUK

..and Niger is Africa rather than a country in Africa,even with the mining operations in Gabon downsized,South Africa and Namibia are also major producers of uranium ore as well as Niger.

clarice

Bear with me while I spin this out. It is pure speculation.

Comey's office and the OVP had a number of major clashes about the NSA program and other issues relating to the war. Many of these are career officials (one previously worked for Ted Kennedy). In particular, Addington of the OVP was someone they calshed with often. I believe some of the FISA court leaks came from there.

At the same time, some angry CIA analysts (perhaps pro-Saudi, perhaps nuts, perhaps pro Kerry cook up this Mission) and work with the VIPS to support Wilson's lies about it. And they do it well--so Tenet doesn't even know what they've done.

They spread the story to some reporters--Corn comes to mind--it's bubbling all around town. Some reporters start nosing about and Novak who's close to Armitage asks him, finds out and runs with the story.

The whistleblower story which is already in Corn's typewriter hits the IT..others follow suit.
Then, a perfectly phony referral letter comes to DoJ and is immediately leaked to Mitchell to compell Ashcroft to turn it over to Comey.Comey who is an old friend of Fitz' makes this super special appointment--no supervision, no restriction on funds.

Investigators are selected from the FBIand CIA..The CIA guys are the ones who set the template..

See, where I'm going?

PeterUK

"#17 Larry Johnson is a Republican."
Larry Johnson is a covert Republican.

clarice

owl, the court said even if there is no actual supervision it's okay because Fitz is bound by thee Dept's rules and regs though he can bypass or ignore them. Please don't ask me more..that really is the opinion in a nutshell.

JM Hanes

#19 It doesn't matter whether or not White House officials are guilty of exposing Valerie Plame, as long as you can put them in jail for something.

owl

Thanks..so he really is God and above the President, who has those 500 Overseers looking down his throat.

JM Hanes

owl

"So who is in charge of supervising Fitz?"

No one.

Sue

When Fitz first began his participation into the investigation, no one knew that Wilson was a liar. If Fitz began with the idea that the WH didn't have an answer to Wilson other than to just shut him up, I can see why he went the route he went. It wasn't until well into his investigation he found out that Wilson was less than truthful and there was plent of evidence to use as pushback without outing the wife. Wells said it better than I. If you just look at what Fitzgerald wants to present to the jury, it looks like Plame was the only thing they were focused on. In fact, she was a part of a very large push back that involved the truth. Why Fitzgerald didn't just back off when the reporters balked is beyond me. I still think that had something to do with yanking Miller around, something he was denied in the other case.

owl

As the man says "that harms us all". Thanks I just never could find anyone they said was the supervisor.

clarice

When he was a student at LSE a friend wrote, Coup D'Etat a Practical Handbook. He said there were so many loci of power in the US it couldn't happen here, but I think these people were in fact using the resources of the state to ju jitsu a regime change.

PeterUK

Clarice,
It is possible that this began as a CIA CYA,Cheney asked a question,quite reasonable considering the Agency's purported job.
What if the CPD had fallen down on the job,after all if they are as all qqaulified as Plame,this is likely.
The CPD has an Ohmygod,moment and panics,then runs around trying to find someone to investigate.
Now this is where I think the plot came in,if they come up with a positive,the Niger forgeries, which they knew were forgeries,would be fake but true,questions would be asked,how long has Iraq been doing this,why didn't you know before.
However if they produce a negative,throw in the forgeries as window dressing,nothing to see here,move along.
At some point someone realised that this was a superb political tool to undermine the administration's credibility,vis a vie the Iraq war.
Plames ever shifting status was a piece of extemporisation after the event.
I agree with you that this is the CIA's pushback

Barney Frank

Anyone,

Has Fitzgerald ever worked in DC before and if so was it in the political arena or in some insulated DOJ backwater?

owl

I agree with you that this is the CIA's pushback.

But impossible without the MSM helpers and gal Val.

clarice

Possible alternative.
But I think the Rockefeller memo was the end point of his plotting to us the intelligence committee (and allies in the government) not the beginning. All the Senate Democratic Policy Committee are online but the May 2 , 2003 when. Wilson apparently was a presenter there. It is where he and Plame met Kristof.

The following meeting is on line. The witnesses to that were the VIPers and Rockefeller held a press conference there with them.

The plan was inside the executive and inside the legislative branches.

In the executive, I should add the WH--for it is not farfetched to suggest that Beers and Clarke who defected from the NSC played a significant role and both worked for some time with Wilson.

Sue

Something that has always bugged me. Why didn't the CIA shut Wilson down when he first began his campaign of disinformation? Why didn't they quietly go to Valerie and tell her to reign her husband in? Why did it take Tenet so long to get involved? If the WH was running around gossiping about the envoy, surely Tenet was aware of it at the same time they were.

clarice

I have spent a lot of time studying the forgeries. I do not have a clear picture of what happened there--for what purpose they were produced, etc. But I feel that they were designed to (a) hide a real transaction and (b) be used at a propitious time. One thing I am certain of, it is the truly impossible part of Wilson's story. There is no way to read all he's said about them without concluding as Roberts did that he was lying, or that someone gave him classified information he was not entitled to see, or that he received some set of them from someone outside the government..and that set never surfaced.(What I'm saying is there may have been 3 sets) One he saw, and one we had in the Langley safe and one the Italians had.

clarice

Sue, upthread someone has a statment by JM in which she says Libby told her Tenet didn't know about Wilson at all. Remember there was o paper trail:No hiring authorization, no written report, no non-disclosure agreement. By expensing the trip only the entire thing could be hidden in the miscellaneous expenses of Plame's office.

Barney Frank

"Why didn't the CIA shut Wilson down when he first began his campaign of disinformation?"

I'll take a stab at that one. Half of the CIA liked his disinformation campaign, and the other half are incompetent boobs.

Specter

BTW - the game is afoot...again....Who Am I?

clarice

Barney, I have no knwledge of Fitz ever handling a case like this. Indeed at the appointment presser, I recall Comey (in response to questions) saying Fitz didn't have any the same level of dealing with classified material cases (as he had).

A friend who covered the WTC case said (as Here) Fitz ignored all the evidence that that was a false flag case and ignored FBI produced evidence. The Gorelik wall kept the CIA from seeing that stuff until after the case was over. Even then the CIA never went to the courthouse to read those files. She had to do it, and they were mortified when they found out how much terrorist leads were in them.

So--we have the perfect prosecutor for someone trying to pull this often--a narrow minded prosecutor focused on using all the tricks he's learned to get convictions , not to find out what actually happened--no concern for the bigger picture.

clarice

Sorry--that is too full of typos for me to stand*********

Barney, I have no knowledge of Fitz ever handling a case like this. Indeed at the appointment presser, I recall Comey (in response to questions) saying Fitz didn't have the same level of dealing with classified material cases (as he had).

A friend who covered the WTC bombing case said (as here) Fitz ignored all the evidence that that was a false flag attack and ignored FBI produced evidence. The Gorelik wall kept the CIA from seeing that stuff until after the case was over. Even then the CIA never went to the courthouse to read those files. She had to do it, and they were mortified when they found out how many terrorist leads were in them.

So--we have the perfect prosecutor for someone trying to pull this off--a narrow minded prosecutor focused on using all the tricks he's learned to get convictions -- not to find out what actually happened--no concern for the bigger picture.

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Wilson/Plame