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May 27, 2006

Comments

PeterUK

Clarice,
Rules of evidence,this is Winter Soldier Redux

clarice

I think Surber's fisking was great..

PeterUK

Ooops,Sorry Bob,books are in the post,on the bright side you were first so you only get one,please foreward the rest to RLS.

PeterUK

Clarice,
There was a very Soviet air to Winter Soldier,reminiscent of the Bolshevik and Stalinist denunciations,serving military personnel were accused of crimes they neither committed nor were aware of.

Gary Maxwell

accused of crimes they neither committed nor were aware of.

Is this the Franz Kafka book "The Trial"?

PeterUK

Kafkaesque in the extreme Gary,the totalitarian impulse to control men's minds with fear, denunciation and betrayal,what better organisation to do it?

clarice

Why do you think post-adolescents are so attracted to that clunky 30's Marxist terminology like "the masses","military machine" "imperialism"? It makes them look absolutely idiotic.Kind of like "Those aren't my SUVs, they are the family's" Utter jibberish.

PeterUK

Clarice,
Many of them are simply groupies of any counter establishment figures,one up from refusing to clear their room....but John Kerry???

kim

See Peter's NYT editorial link and Nolan's monomaniacal explication of the horrors of war, and you've seen the snake shed it's skin, yet again. Apparently the NYT bet so hugely on our loss in Iraq that they can't report the Iraqis' victory. They now have their oil and their country. There's something discordant in Blue Country and I can hear the gnashing all the way over here.
==================================

Lurker

back from the Texas Republican Convention. A good convention. Hottest topic was immigration. Most want a physical wall. They have the ability to talk the talk but don't have the votes to walk the talk. Perry says, "Eliminate the Californian and New England Republicans...is the conservative majority but not enough to make sweeping changes. Noonan's article about the 3rd party just won't solve it.

Anyways, the biggest question that I have:

If Kerry signed the F180 but released to specific journalists / media, why have they been quiet about it? Surely, if the F180 supports Kerry's stories, the MSM / LSM would be braggadocio about it.

PeterUK

Kurker,
I it had been good they woild have made it into a T Shirt.

PeterUK

An excellent take on the Vietnam Syndrome by Mark Steyn Has he been reading this thread?

clarice

PUk, foreign service types of his father's ilk were so sophisticated they bought utterly into the internationalist theme song--tha t is to say thaey considered European interests more significant than our own. They're dying out now, but for years I ran into the old Georgetown foreign service crowd all of whom disbelieved Alger Hiss was guilty. After all he went to the right schools.

PeterUK

Clarice,
Not a few of our old foreign service types actually were on the other side.I think the lure of communism was like a flame to a moth for the bureaucratic elite,after socialism is for the little people,the mandarins are always with us.

PeterUK

-after all socialism-

clarice

Yes. Mark Steyn once did a marvelous piece about one of those guys. He was Jackie Kennedy's cousin and, in fact, while on the US payroll was a Soviet spy who suffered not at all for his perfidy.

Ditto for Philby et al..Just to special for real democracies to be appealing.

One of the best things Rice has done as SoS is to order our foreign service offices on Western Europe to be cut drastically and the officers stationed in the hellholes of the Third World (far from the nearest Gucci and near to the real action).

clarice

**ToO special***

and*****foreign service offices In Western Europe********

PeterUK

Talking out of school here Clarice,but the last time I saw an expression like the one Kerry wore at WSI was on the face of Kim Philby.

clarice

I never saw Kim Philby. Tell me all about it, honey.

Sara (The Squiggler)

The Truth, John Kerry, and The New York Times

Kate Zernike's story on the front page of the Memorial Day Sunday New York Times, "Kerry Pressing Swift Boat Case Long After Loss," is an unfortunate reminder of the Times's embarrassingly poor coverage of Kerry in the face of the Swift Boat Veterans' for Truth charges in the 2004 election. Now as then, the Times acts as if the issues involved were between Kerry's latest representations of his record and the "unsubstantiated" charges of the Swift Boat group. The Times used the term "unsubstantiated" more than twenty times during its election coverage and continues to make no discernable effort to examine any of the charges in detail. But there was plenty of evidence in the work of other news organizations that some of the charges, and the Kerry military records themselves, were worth examining seriously. I found numerous problems with Kerry's records on his website in my own reporting for the Chicago Sun-Times: a Silver Star with a V for valor listed that the Navy stated it had never awarded in the history of the US Navy, three separate medal citations with some heavy revisions in Kerry's favor signed by former Navy Secretary John Lehman who denied ever signing them, to name two.
Sara (The Squiggler)

The NYT’s Can’t Handle The Truth

KeithNolan

To RLS: many thanks for the calm, reasonable, and rational message. (Whaddya doin' HERE?--this place ain't rational!)

I've met many individuals like yourself over the years (that is, men who did their duty, and did it well, and did not descend into brutality), and have written many a book about such individuals. It has been an honor to do so.

I really don't have any argument with you. If I'm reading you correctly, you don't doubt all the Winter Soldiers, but want much more proof than has been offered before you're going to trust the bulk of what they had to say. Fair enough. Though I have verified some of those Winter Soldier stories, to include reading a CID report that verifies one of the worst massacres desribed, and though many more of the stories simply ring true based on what I've been told about the units and time periods cited, much more research would be required to verify (or disprove) every one of the hundreds of stories told at the Winter Soldier Investigation. I'll check back with you guys in a couple years!

By the way, I'm fairly convinced that one of the Winter Soldiers might indeed be a liar, or at least a helluva embellisher. I won't mention his name because I don't have any proof either way. In any event, even if this guy is full of schitt, I don't think one suspected liar discredits 130 veterans.

A reminder: a lot of what the WSI guys said wasn't even horror-show stuff. For example, former platoon leader Scott Moore, 9th Division, 1968-69, testified that the American public was being misled about the progress of the war because enemy body counts were grossly exaggerated. In fact, the heavily-padded body counts from the 9th Division at that time were an open scandal. Moore wasn't the only former officer to speak about this. (Read the 9th Division chapter from ABOUT FACE by David Hackworth.)

I mention this simply because it is another reason I tend to believe the Winter Soldiers: I don't know Scott Moore, but, man, what he talked about sure rang true based on what I do know about the 9th Division, circa 1968-69.

One other thought: I have discovered over the years that veterans who served with some of the better units (say a Marine reconnaissance battalion) just can't fathom the kind of stuff that went on in some of the more run-of-the-mill units. Just as guys who served during the 1965-68 period have a hard time believing the stories of fraggings, racial violence, dope-smoking, etc., that began surfacing in 1969 and went over the edge in 1970-71.

As you know far better than I, TLS, Vietnam was a very personal war, and experiences varied greatly depending on your time of service, unit, etc. A Marine rifleman who landed in Da Nang in 1965 and an Americal Division grunt, circa 1971, might as well have been on different planets.

Before I take off, one last thought: in 1970-71, General David Shoup, USMC (holder of the Medal of Honor from WWII), and Congressman Paul McCloskey (R-CA) (who had earned the Navy Cross and Silver Star as a Marine platoon leader in Korea) met with John Kerry and the Winter Soldiers. I mean that unlike anyone at this board, they met these men face-to-face at the time of the infamous Senate speech, listened to their stories, asked questions, etc., etc., etc.--and then publicly offered their support for Kerry and the VVAW.

If those guys passed muster with General Shoup and Congressman McCloskey, well, that means a lot more to me than the half-baked frauds-and-liars meme handed down by Nixon and reanimated by the SwiftVets.

Anyway, RLS, I'm not a fan of Kerry, I don't agree with the overarching philosophy of the VVAW--but I do respect Vietnam Veterans of all political stripes, including those who joined unpopular organizations like the VVAW. I think a lot of people here think that being in the VVAW was cool or something. Actually, a lot of the members were down-home country kids and middle-class college students. They weren't exactly from Berkeley, you know. They weren't Red Diaper Babies. Most quite when the VVAW went Far Left and guys like Al Hubbard wrote poems about the evils of Amerikkka. Most of these guys were earnest and pa