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May 27, 2006

Comments

windansea

OT but relevant

JESSE MACBETH IS A FRAUD. HE WAS KICKED OUT OF THE ARMY PRIOR TO COMPLETING BASIC TRAINING. HE WAS NEVER A RANGER AND NEVER SERVED ANYWHERE OTHER THAN FT. BENNING, GA, WHERE HE FLUNKED OUT OF ARMY BASIC TRAINING.

linky to McBeth DD214

ernst blofeld

Who's this "researcher" the Times talks about, and where is his report? Did it actually say he was _in_ Cambodia, or does the Times conflate "heading towards" with "in"?

Sara (The Squiggler)

And before you start accusing Republicans of trashing war records, I have two words for you -- Oliver North, who was awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star for valor, and two Purple Hearts for wounds in combat and yet was trashed to smithereens by the democrats. How quickly we forget.

Sara (The Squiggler)

funny stuff from someone who calls herself the squiggler...

Well, I was trying to be kind and warn you, but go ahead, have at it.

rick

did they trash his war record?

no... they trashed his conduct in the Iran-Contra affair

windansea

my point was... it seems that only democrats seem entitled to have their war records attacked.. republicans are all unassailable

because we can :)

let me call you a whambulance

Bush record was attacked with false document

Kerry won't release his

McBeth (see above post)

rick

did anyone call him a coward? anyone say his medals not deserved?

thats my point exactly

Dave

Rick,

There may be some here who are down on kerry (small k intended) because he is a Democrat, but like me, most are disgusted with what he did after he came home. Most would act the same if he was a Repubican, Independant, or anything else. He tries to puff himself up, but he is one of the tallest small men I have ever heard of. That's why I use a small k when I spell his name.

I remember those times. I am a vet. I will do everything I can to see that this person is never elected to Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. I owe that to the real men who served and to those who were vilified because of his false accusations.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Although it is pretty hard to call a silver and bronze star winner a coward, they did question his service and the legitimacy of his medals, before he testified. The six months leading up to his Congressional appearance was brutal. But, to his credit, the Marine came through and within the first couple of hours of testimony, months of negative press and public opinion did a complete 180. Like I said, how quickly we forget.

rick

yeah.,, well i never disparaged bush for serving in the national guard,,,

I would just like for ya'll to imagine how much FUN you would have trashing him for it if he were a democrat... defending our southern borders while REAL men were in a real war zone...

Im just tired of the hypocrisy, is all

And if ya'll don't realize you are just as bad as democrats... ...

ya'll need to wake up...


richard mcenroe

Notice how Rick sorta overlooks Rumsfeld, who flew subhunters for the Navy.

And hey, remember how all us nasty fascists picked on poor Sergeant Massie just because he made up stories about Iraqi atrocities that even the embedded BBC and Reuters reporters said never happened?

cuz we're just, you know, evil that way.

rick

dave..

i hear that.. and just so we know, i never liked kerry ..

but i would ask... is there anyone.. who opposed the war in vietnam.. or the current war in iraq.. that you would support.

Rick

Sara (The Squiggler)

Rick, you just don't get it. Many of us were there, we lived through those times and it wasn't easy if you were active duty or a returning Vet. It was John Kerry's actions that made it nearly impossible for the rest of us. We will never forgive him for that. It was vile behavior, it violated every common decency and he deserves all the revulsion heaped upon him. How old were you in 1971?

vnjagvet

As with Squiggler, this is the issue that got me started in the blogosphere. I spent literally months commenting on Beldar, Roger Simon and Captain's Corner on the subject.

Despite the CW in the MSM and the left-leaning blogosphere, the audience for this has been Veterans and I think the issue tilted about 80-20 against brother Kerry in that demographic.

Veterans had a visceral reaction against the phoniness and cynicism of Kerry's use of his VN experience as a qualification for the presidency in light of his post-Vietnam Winter Soldier anti-war performances.

The fundamental fact of his anti-war activity is simply impossible to change. Those of us who were emotionally affected by it will never forget. Those emotions do not recede in a lifetime.

Bill Faith

I'd have to dig back to my files to be sure -- I will if Jean Fraud starts sounding serious about running -- but IIRC he was due for discharge from the Reserves in '72 but no one has ever seen any papers saying he was actually discharged. There's ample evidence he received an OTH discharge sometime before that and was able to have it changed to Honorable later with Carter's help.

M. Simon

Sara (The Squiggler),

Ollie North was probably involved in cocaine smuggling. Possibly with the Barry Seal organization.

Look at the testimony of Blandon in Iran Contra and Ollie North's notes in the same investigation.

Ollie has notes about "kilos". Was it rice? Beans? Doesn't say.

Ollie gave a great speech and all that disappeared from the radar.

So for me Ollie's halo is a bit tarnished.

Bill Faith

btw, Hi Squiggler. I started blogging about the same time you did for the same reason.

Other Tom, did you used to use a more descriptive name on the SBVT forum and some other places we used to bump into each other?

rick

sara...

were you a returning vet in 1971?
do you think it was kerry alone who criticized the war?

but my points are being lost here... you seem content to attack the patriotism of those who disagree with you. Any vet, no matter how decorated, will be trashed by the right-wing if they stray from the pro-war, republican party line..

prove to me that im wrong..


Sara (The Squiggler)

Kerry has been an equal opportunity insulter. I don't presume to question his service record or his discharge, I leave that to those with the right to question a comrade-in-arms (not that Kerry was ever a trustworthy comrade). My issues have to do with his reckless and lying testimony and his dishonoring of brave men who did not deserve to be dishonored. His shame became the shame we were all tarred with and that is unforgiveable in my eyes and made even more egregious because it reached all the way down and touched my child.

Dave

Rick,

Actually, neither Vietnam nor Iraq are a litmus test for me. Consequently, I can't give you a hard answer. My support for any other candidate depends on their entire record or beliefs. With him, it is different, more visceral. I have more respect for Ted Kennedy, even with all the baggage he is carrying.

M. Simon

I served off the coast of 'Nam - DLGN-25. The closest I got to the fighting was listening to the arty when we were off the coast of Da Nang.

A few years after I got back I heard SKerry's testimony and bought into it.

By '80 I had figured out that c***sucker was a total fraud. I have never forgiven him for leading me into a morally bad choice. Which is why I was at all the usual places - R. Simon, Beldar, The Cap'n, etc. from the time the Swifties hit.

Fool me once.....

rick

ok i think a question i have here is...

is there ANYONE who criticized the war in vietnam that would pass muster... that would be okay for him to do..

adn if so.. who for example.

Rick Ballard

That's not what the thread is about. Start your own blog and ask questions there.

Hanoi John Kerry is a liar, a disgrace to the US Senate and unfit for the position he now holds let alone any higher position. The NYT launch of a rehabilitative effort on Memorial Day eve is interesting only in that it raises a question as to whether this is supposed to help Kerry or bury a knife in his back.

Sara (The Squiggler)

No Rick, I was not a returning Vet in 1971. In 1971, I was refused employment because my husband was active duty and had served two combat tours by that time. In 1971, our family of 4 was denied housing because we were active duty. In 1971, I was preparing my children for the separation that was coming shortly as their Daddy left for another 9 months on yet another combat tour. He had served a 15 month combat tour in the exact same place at the same time as Kerry in 1968, although Kerry managed to get out in only 4 months and my husband, like I've said, was stuck there for 15. During the end of the 1971-1972 school year, my son's teacher, after listening to John Kerry, told him that "God doesn't listen to prayers for baby killers," causing my son to go into a rage and me having to go to school. When I found out what she said, I went ballistic. That was the climate back then, and we lived in what was supposed to be a military friendly town. The scars are deep and lasting, although buried for over 30 years until that night he committed the ultimate insult by sneering into the TV camera, "reporting for duty." I got so upset, I threw up. That's how deep my hatred of this man goes. It has absolutely ZERO to do with his party affiliation. I could care less.

M. Simon

rick,

I'd be OK with any of the little people who were fooled by the communist propaganda of the time and came to regret it.

I can't think of any one in politics who fits that description. (and no, I'm not interested in the job).

rick

rick //
you said " ..thats not what this thread is about..."

whats it about then..if not an examination of the issues involving the vietnam war and veterans feelings regarding those who were against the war...

Or is it just an opportunity for some to vent whatever hatred thay have against kerry?


vnjagvet

rick:

I have plenty of colleagues between the ages of 48-63 who were against the VN war when they were students. I have never held that view against them, and never would. I have supported and voted for many of these colleagues for public office, or for staff positions in government.

None of these people served in VN, and some actively sought to avoid service.

But none of them used theif rank as officers to promote pro-NVA positions. None lied about those who did serve.

Kerry did both, and, for that reason permanently lost my respect.

Rick Ballard

"whats it about then..if not an examination of the issues involving the vietnam war and veterans feelings regarding those who were against the war..."

Try reading the original post.

"issues" and "feelings"

You're just another half assed thread thief. Not a particularly good one either.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Rick, until you understand the crime, you can't possibly understand the "feelings" of veterans and their families.

Sara (The Squiggler)

I tried to warn him, Rick. I really did.

M. Simon

I'm having flashbacks.

Its October 2004.

Fresh Air

Rick--

You are really thick, aren't you. Virtually all of the commenters here hate Kerry's guts, for his overstating his combat record, for his lying in the Winter Soldier affair in front of the Senate, for his meeting with the Viet Cong in Paris, for his subsequent howlers about Cambodia, for his perpetual, adolescent narcisissim, and above all, for his refusal to apologize to the hundreds of thousands of Vietnam vets whom he slandered.

There is no calumny that can be heaped on this bastard that will suffice. And that--yes, that is what this thread is about. If it discomfits you, perhaps you should go elsewhere. Face it, the man is a jerk and a traitor.

Free Frank Warner

How can Kate Zernike of The New York Times do a whole story centering on Sen. John Kerry’s "Christmas in Cambodia" and never mention Christmas?

It was Christmas in Cambodia 1968 that Kerry described publicly at least nine times, and yet Zernike neglects to remind us of that date seared in Kerry’s memory. Check her story.

Kerry suddenly has found a log that notes a "run to Cambodia" on Feb. 12, 1969. Why did neither Kerry biographer Doug Brinkley nor Kerry himself mention that log entry two years ago?

Ernst Blofeld

The Febuary 12, 1969 log reference is apparently a reference to a mission on the Rach Giang Thanh river. This river _parallels_ the Cambodian border, and doesn't cross into Cambodia. The border is anywhere from fifty meters to over a kilometer away. He would have been on PCF-94 at that time, and one of the crewmen, Medeiros, says he never went into Cambodia. The NYT is covering for Kerry again.

Mac K

The not so Swiftboat ad characterized Kerry as making "accusations . . . against the verterans who served in Vietnam." The Kerry denies that and most reasonable fair Americans believe him. Kerry was placing blame on the country's leaders (Nixon and Kissenger who by their neglgence and mismanagement caused the deaths of thousands of American troops), not the veterans. Kerry at one point did say that his words were those of "an angry young man . . . inappropriate . . . a little bit excessive . . . a little bit over the top."

Kerry's critics point to a 1978 history of Vietnam that challenged some of the witnesses Kerry quoted. But other published accounts provide ample evidence that atrocities such as those Kerry described actually were committed.

As an example, a portion of Kerry's testimony in which he places the blame for the 1968 My Lai massacre not on the troops, but on their superiors: "I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere. I think it lies with the men who designed free fire zones. I think it lies with the men who encourage body counts."

Kerry critics have long disputed that atrocities by US forces were as prevalent as Kerry suggested.

Some atrocities by US forces have been documented beyond question. Kerry's 1971 testimony came less than one month after Army Lt. William Calley had been convicted in a highly publicized military trial of the murder of 22 Vietnamese civilians at My Lai hamlet on March 16 1968.

Son Thang: In 1998, for example, Marine Corps veteran Gary D. Solis published the book Son Thang: An American War Crime describing the court-martial of four US Marines for the apparently unprovoked killing 16 women and children on the night of February 19, 1970 in a hamlet about 20 miles south of Danang. The four Marines testified that they were under orders by their patrol leader to shoot the villagers.Three were convicted.

#
Tiger Force: The Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize this year for a series published in October, 2003 reporting that atrocities were committed by an elite US Army "Tiger Force" unit that the Blade said killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage in 1967. "Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for their gold fillings," the Blade reported. "Investigators concluded that 18 soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty. But no one was charged."

"Exact Same Stories": Keith Nolan, author of 10 published books on Vietnam, says he's heard many veterans describe atrocities just like those Kerry recounted from the Winter Soldier event. Nolan told FactCheck.org that since 1978 he's interviewed roughly 1,000 veterans in depth for his books, and spoken to thousands of others. "I have heard the exact same stories dozens if not hundreds of times over," he said. "Wars produce atrocities. Frustrating guerrilla wars produce a particularly horrific number of atrocities. That some individual soldiers and certain units responded with excessive brutality in Vietnam shouldn't really surprise anyone."

It's now well established that George W. Bush never showed up for National Guard duty for a period of approximately one year, possibly more, in 1972-1973. Despite all the talk about "honor and dignity," Bush seems to have a problem meeting his commitments.

"Those of us who were in the military wonder how it is that someone who is supposedly serving on active duty...can miss a whole year of service without even explaining where it went," said [Senator John] Kerry.
(Source)

Bush says he's released all his records...if that's true, then has anyone seen:

* Any pages from Bush's flight log
* Records from the Flight Inquiry Board convened after Bush was suspended as a pilot
* Any evidence of Bush's reclassification into another AFSC after suspension as a pilot
* Any photos of George Bush in a military uniform after 1972
* Anything at all from any Alabama unit with Bush's name on it
* Any copies of form 44a from the Alabama National Guard certifying attendance
* Air Force Form 142 (Aviation Service Audit Worksheet)
* Anything proving service (not just receipt of pay) by Bush between May 1972 and May 1973?

JeanneB

Whether Marvin Kalb or some other researcher, the first question for Kerry should start with the END of his service.

Why is one of his citations signed by JOHN LEHMAN, who didn't become Navy Secretary until 1981---at least a decade after Kerry's service?!!!

I've only ever heard one reporter question this. Someone on FOX asked Lehman about it and he said he didn't recall it and could not imagine why his signature was on there. That was it...no MSM follow up (as compared to the braying of the pack over Bush's record).

So: start the research and the end. It will lead to revelations of a dishonorable discharge. OR it will show that Kerry lied when he said he didnt throw his own medals---did he apply for replacements many years later?

JeanneB

Ernst:
Perhaps we wouldn't have so many questions about Kerry if he had ever signed the 180 form (as Bush did). Why would a man so proud of his record refuse to release them for all to see?

Bob

Bruce Hayden... enough of the Catholic Stereotype crap. Next you'll be telling us how the Nuns hit him too, which made him such a monster, that it made him kill innocent Cambodians!

"Kerry was raised Roman Catholic, with all that that entails, esp. as to guilt."

"So, he gets out, and it still haunts him. What is the natural thing to do, esp. for a good Catholic? Confession and Penance."

I think your making the fact that Kerry was raised a Roman Catholic as some sort of precursor to being a coward and a liar.

Sara(The Squiggler) has it right... "Bruce, I think Kerry ran away because he is a coward."

Stereotyping Roman Catholics does not make your point any more credible, and makes you sound like your posting on the DU like a Kos Kid.

Having gone through Catholic School for 12 years I can promise you that anyone who was affected by the so called "catholic guilt syndrome" came into the system predisposed to the condition. The stereotype you were looking to describe is Democrats, simple and plain. Look no further than the Kennedy idoling to see how they look up to cowards!

Lurker

I don't care which party John Kerry is affiliated with, I don't trust him to run our country. He lacks principles, morals, and integrity. He hasn't told us what he consistently believes in and stand by his beliefs.

How about WWII? JFK and the first Bush both fought in WWII. One was a democrat; the other a republican. Have we seen anyone attacking JFK's military records? No.

bethl

Why is it that Kerry defenders can't admit the inconsistanties in his stories?
Christmas in Cambodia--Febuary in Cambodia
Taking a CIA agent who gave him a hat---taking navy seals who gave him a hat
Khymer Rouge shooting at him---running guns to the Khymer Rouge.
Also no one on either boat he commanded will back him on this---even those that supported him strongly. (on Meet The Press this year--he pretty much said they were too dumb to realize where they were.) Nice guy (not)
Actually for me the fact that he somehow had inserted in the 86 versions of his citations a phrase praising his bravery and dedication to duty (well past the time that anything like that would be allowed) hammers home the point that he is scum.

Seixon

LOL. So now the Boston Globe, writing on behalf of Kerry, is now the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth. Man, how much of a disingenuous liar do you have to be to cover for all of Kerry's BS?

As I noted at my blog, the Times never even mentions Christmas 1968, the event that the Swifties seized on, and instead tries to bait and switch with February 1969 - where he still didn't go into Cambodia.

Geez.

Pofarmer

My favorite part of the whole Swift Boats/MSM excange was that in all the accounts they were immediatly the "discredited Swift Boats Verterans for Truth" even though noone had debated or really deconstructed any of their arguments. Just noted they disagreed with JFK and that was that, discredited.

hrtshpdbox

From right near the top of the Times article:
"They gave me a hat," Mr. Kerry says. "I have the hat to this day," he declares, rising to pull it from his briefcase. "I have the hat."
It might as well be running in The Onion, can Kerry possibly imagine that the Swifties aren't going to come out with guns blazing? Can he hope that his refusal to release his military records will go unremarked upon? I think he must thoroughly believe that the Swifties cost him the election, and he's determined not to have that happen a second time. The man doesn't have a clue, but what a fortuitous (for the GOP) display of a "leading Democrat" at work.

Seixon

I read the Silver Star citation, and even there it says that the guy Kerry killed was fleeing.

jan van flac

why do you waste your breath on this swift boat crap? look at the falied, floundering presidency you are stuck with.

Mark my words, Mr 29% doesn't finish his term. The wheels are falling off, and only you dead enders don't see it.

Oh yeah, and Murtha was right. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060527/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_killing_crisis Right Blogostan has been eerily silent about it for the last couple of days.


Jane

WELL Fox just reported that Kerry, still so upset about his reputation, has agreed to release his discharge record.

Of course that doesn't necessarily translate into his entiredischarge record; and of course he has made that promise before.

Kerry is not even well liked by the state democrats here. He has the reputation of pushing to the head of the line while saying: "don't you know who I am"?

PeterUK

why is it that you republican types always find a way to trash the war records of people you dont agree with...

And the war records of those you agree with are unassailable...

You are all hypocrites


Interestingly the arch Democrat,John Kerry,trashed military service of an entire generation of his comrades.
Tens of thousands of them.

Lurker

"http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060527/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_killing_crisis Right Blogostan has been eerily silent about it for the last couple of days."

No, not quiet...just waiting to see the final report.

"look at the falied, floundering presidency you are stuck with."

Failing and floundering? Not especially with the Iraqi war over with AND a booming economy.

Lurker

Hugh Hewitt's write up about Haditha:

What really Happened in Haditha?

Doug Reese

Regarding the Silver Star and a comment made by Tom M. . . . "There were no Swift Boat Veterans for Truth at the scene of the Silver Star incident - all they did was compare different versions of the incident as described in Kerry's medal citation and by Kerry himself, years later, to the Boston Globe."

Actually they did more than that. Here's but a few examples . . . .

They totally ignored the citation awarded Kerry by Zumwalt about a week after the incident. They also totally ignored the after-action report.

That citation, based on the after-action report, was detailed and accurate.

One member of the Swift Boat Veterans for "truth" could not stop himself from blurting out his favorite soundbite "Shot that kid in the back" over and over again on every talk show he appeared. And adding that it was "in the records".

But it wasn't in the records. To the contrary, several people present that day, including a Swift Boat officer who was on Kerry's boat, said the killing wound wasn't in the back. Which IS possible even though he was fleeing, which he certainly was.

Oh, and there was one member of the SBV"t" present that day out of a total of 25 Americans (none of whom have come forward to dispute what Kerry and/or the Navy have said happened, despite being contacted by the private investigator hired by the SBV"t"). While not supporting Kerry for the presidency, he does support Kerry being awarded the Silver Star.

LTTB.

Doug Reese

PeterUK

BTW,Anybody notice Rick(not Ballard) has the same faux folksy flatulence as the hydra headed,AB Katrina creature?

PeterUK

Doesn't matter front or back,the Vietnamese was unarmed,Kerry,War criminal?

Lurker

Rick Moran's post about Haditha

Rick Moran also provided additional links to other blogs about this same topic. Rick pointed out that Haditha is a hot insurgency area.

Incidentally, speaking about the Iraqi insurgency, The American Thinker has a note indicating that the Iraqi insurgency has reverted back to the pony express method for communicating orders, data, information, etc.

And as for Kerry, the Swift Vet campaign had no effect on my vote since he never had my vote to begin with. As Tom says, "bring it on" (and so what)!

boris

the killing wound wasn't in the back

Since this is the kind of touchy feely argument the left uses preferentially, this is the one that gets their goat.

Nothing wrong with killing enemy in combat.

Awarding the silver star for shooting down a single fleeing soldier is a joke. Does every Nam vet with a confirmed kill get the silver star?

Lurker

And, how can one get a Purple Heart with 4 or less months of active combat duty????

Other Tom

This is for Rick: George H. W. Bush was shot down in the Pacific in the early days of World War II. His two crew members did not get out of the plane, and perished. In the 1988 campaign the Democrats initiated a vicious and libleous smear campaign, suggesting that Bush had abandoned those two sailors in order to save his own skin. Not a scintilla of evidence, but they didn't need one--they just leveled the charge, "attacking his war record."

As John Kerry himself has acknowledged, when he volunteered for the Swifts he had no intention of ever seeing combat, and did not expect to. At that time the Swifts were confined to the very tedious and uneventful task of coastal patrol. Unfortunately for him, just as he arrived in November, 1968 Adm. Zumwalt also arrived, and it was he who determined that the Swifts could come up into the rivers (but not most of the canals) of the delta, where the PBR's had been operating since 1966. Kerry complained constantly about this change of mission.

Every time a patrol headed up the Bassac River, or the Co Chien, or the Ham Luong, it was headed "toward Cambodia." Happened scores of times each day, 365 days per year. As I say, this guy is a fraudulent bombastes furioso.

Doug Reese

Was the VC Kerry killed unarmed? Not quite. Unless you call having a B-40 being unarmed.

On top of that, this was in the middle of a firefight. It wasn't just Kerry and this one VC. There were about 20 other VC present in the area.

Kerry didn't get the Silver Star for killing one VC. There was more to it than that.

As I said earlier, none the the people there that day had a problem with it (the VC also, I might add). Those who dispute what Kerry and/or the Navy say happened have something in common -- none of them were there.

Doug Reese

ed

Hmmmm.

Oh Christ.

Will Kerry either release his records to the public or just give it up?

Are we going to be forced to deal with this crazy nonsense every four years until he kicks the bucket?

Doug Reese

The Swifts didn't come up most of the canals? You're kidding, right? They were on canals about as much as they were on rivers.

Doug Reese

Beto Ochoa

A poem for the Veterans on Memorial Day
Memorial Day by Beto Ochoa

I stood on the hill over Arlington
Where my fathers before me were lain.
And I thought of the peace in my green backyard
That they bought for me with their pain.
The rows and rows of their brothers,
Still loyal in ranks beside.
Will march into Heaven in soldierly rows
When the Bridegroom calls his bride.
The sting of death does not touch them now.
They’re sleeping and waiting for God.
In the green, green hills of Arlington
’Neath the nation they saveds’ fair sod.

anon

Ahh, smearing a vet on memorial day, TM? Makes ya proud, doesn't it?

ed

Hmmmm.

1. Except the B40 rocket launcher is a single shot weapon and the one being carried by the wounded VC was empty.

2. It wasn't in the middle of a firefight. It was an ambush by a lone VC.

3. Kerry got the silver star for killing one VC.

4. Actually I think a Swiftie might have been there. Frankly it's been 2+ years already. If not then Kerry was impeached by his own words and biography.

5. This isn't the first time a Democrat has claimed an unwarranted silver star. Lyndon B. Johnson was equally a fraud.

Seems to be a rather common thing with Democrats. Even Rangel claims to be a Korean War veteran, but refuses to say what he did during that war. Considering just being in the area, without seeing combat, makes a person a Korean War vet, it's an odd position to take.

anon

You know what is a common thing with republicans? Not serving at all and then smearing vets who do.
Chickenhawks.

kim

No, anon, this is the NYT trashing a particular vet, John F Kerry. There was a hint earlier, that this recrudescence of the story is Marvin Kalb and Admiral Schacte trying to correct the record. Kerry's performance in Vietnam was disgraceful, but would be unremarkable if he hadn't tried to lie about it. Truth will out, and I can't decide if this phoenix of a story is his enemies trying to kill the zombie, or Kerry trying to exorcise a demon. This story can only destroy Kerry; coming to terms with Vietnam means destroying Kerry.
===================================

Lurker

"Ahh, smearing a vet on memorial day, TM? Makes ya proud, doesn't it?"

HHhmmm...not quite. Kerry's Swift Vet / Vietnam / Winter Soldier history was already known for longer than 2 years. Regardless of the details, there's something about Kerry's history WRT Swift Vet, Vietnam, Winter Solder, Paris trip, Cambodia, and communism connections.

We're honoring those vets that don't have Kerry's questionable history.

Lurker

"Ahh, smearing a vet on memorial day, TM? Makes ya proud, doesn't it?"

HHhmmm...not quite. Kerry's Swift Vet / Vietnam / Winter Soldier history was already known for longer than 2 years. Regardless of the details, there's something about Kerry's history WRT Swift Vet, Vietnam, Winter Solder, Paris trip, Cambodia, and communism connections.

We're honoring those vets that don't have Kerry's questionable history.

Lurker

Sorry for the dupe...

And our honoring of the vets is independent of party affiliation.

anon

Saw the same argument against Murtha, Cleland, Clark and any other vet who dares to be a democrat. The only one on the republican side? McCain - and he got trashed too. Don't pretend you guys honor vets. You don't. They are cannon fodder for people like you. Send them into the meat grinder without the proper equipment. Hey, it's okay as long as Bushie does it. Tell 'em to stop whining. And questions their service when they speak up. All those generals and combat vets? Traitors to our glorious leader.

So don't give me this crap about honoring military service.

kim

So often we rue the power of memes because so many false ones are promoted by the MSM, but I'm ironically amused by the persistence of two above; that Bush signed the 180, and Kerry didn't.
==============================

Lurker

That's because Murtha, Cleland, Clarke, regardless of their party affiliation, provided good reasons.

Are you hanging a flag out in your front yard? I am in honor of our vets that fought for the freedom of our own country and sacrificed their lives so for us.

kim

The difference being, of course, that Bush has commanded release of all his military records to the public, and Kerry has demanded the release of all his military records to his political allies.

I like that: Supreme Demander.
=====================================

Doug Reese

Actually, the B-40 being carried by the VC was not empty. Apparently, it was reloaded by his assistant (there were two VC with that B-40, as it is a 2-person weapon) after being fired the first time. That assumes there was just one B-40 there that day.

This was an ambush by a lone VC? Who in the world told you that? There were about 20 VC total, spread out over perhaps 200 meters or so.

No, he didn't get the SS for killling one VC. Try reading the citation given to Kerry in March, 1969.

As I said earlier, there was one member of the Swift Boat Veterans for "truth" present for this incident. He supports Kerry receiving the Silver Star.

You might want to read more than just what the SBV"t" have to say about this incident. If you did, you would have a better understanding as to what did, and did not happen.

Doug Reese

Lurker

1969? Hhhmmm...what about his winter soldier interviews? What about his trip to Paris? What about his photo in that one museum?

bryan

are you going to make this your life's work? i bet your kids will go on and on about how daddy's obsession with john kerry kept them from getting to know him.

cagopfan

A year and a half ago John Kerry promised Tim Russert on MTP that he's release ALL his records. The clock is still ticking and ole Timmy hasn't followed up on that at all. Why not???

kim

The left demeans the military because they think it it superfluous and dangerous. They've had the luxury of an era of a just and justified military to nurture those opinions.
==================================

anon

"That's because Murtha, Cleland, Clarke, regardless of their party affiliation, provided good reasons."

Bullshit. Their party affiliation was the reason. And McCain dared to challenge Bush, so put they put him through the smear machine too. And all those retired generals and officers who want Rumsfeld to be held accountable, they got trashed too.

And, btw, I have hung up my flag and put flowers on the graves of my family members, thanks. Your knee-jerk attack on my patriotism just proves my point.

Lurker

No, Bryan. It was John Kerry's lifetime work (e.g., the "Magic Hat" article, etc.) to keep the Daddys' kids from really knowing the real John Kerry.

Kim, I read more than once that the dems want to relinquish our US military control to the United Nations. I hope we never do that.

kim

Where were his boat's guns pointing when Kerry made that foolhardy dash onshore? Why?

Did his best friend in Vietnam die a few weeks later trying to copy that desperately stupid, and cowardly move?

"We were taking it to 'em". Ask David Alston, the Man of God.

Please, keep bringing this up. My kids know why Kerry lost.
====================================

Bruce Hayden

Lurker,

Sorry about the stereotype. I didn't mean to offend, though obviously I did. And, no, I don't think the Nuns beat him - as far as I know, most of his time was spent in non-religious schools. And let me repeat, it was not meant to be anti-Catholic in the least.

My armchair amateur psychoanalysis stands where it does, regardless of religion. This is a possibility for any moral person, esp. one who has had religious training. That said, I would also like to point out that, while we deplore them, stereotypes often have some truth to them. How one is raised, esp. here from a religious point of view, often does have some affect on one's outlook on life.

One thing that has always bothered me is that Kerry never really apologized to all the Vietnam Vets he slandered. I think that would have been the easy way out two years ago – him giving a (seeming) heartfelt apology to Vets about the slander and the pain that he inflicted on them. Surrounded, of course, by a band of Brothers, etc. Or maybe not (the not might have been more effective, but would probably have been out of character). This is one place where he might have gotten away with some tears here too. Something like: “My brothers, I was so young then. And I made a mistake. A big one that hurt a lot of you and your loved ones deeply. I am so sorry. I have lived with the hurt that I inflicted for a long time now, and will carry it to my grave. I know that isn’t a comfort, and will never be enough, but as president, I will do whatever I can to make things right….

He could have made such a public apology, But it didn't happen. Still hasn't happened. And he may have lost the presidency because of that, and the continuing animus of the Vietnam Vets and their families. I have talked to plenty of Vets who voted for a Republican for the first time in their lives here. And you can tell from the comments here why.

So, why no heartfelt apology? Why keep ignoring this and hoping it would go away, when it isn't about to?

I can see a lot of Democratic operatives being short sighted enough to think that what was important were Kerry's war heroics, medals, etc., and that his anti-war actions were irrelevant. But by the summer, it was obvious that that was not true. They must have been screaming at him that he needed to either defend himself and/or to publicly apologize, or most likely both.

The thing is that it would have been relatively simple to put at least some of this behind him. He may not have believed that he did any wrong there, though how is beyond me. But that has never before kept him from saying what looked like it would get him votes. And he does have a fighter side to him, which we saw sparks of. And he also has a very competitive side.

So, one theory for this oddity in his actions is that of confession and atonement. That his anti-war actions were his confession and repentance, and that is why he won't renounce them. This isn't peculiarly or exclusively Catholic, just maybe a bit more likely for one raised with Catholic beliefs, which is where the stereotype comes in.

Again, sorry. If I had thought that you would have been as offended as you were, I would have just left it with the mention of confession and atonement.

Lurker

Good for you to hang your US flag and flowers on those graves of your family members. I hope you understand what we went to the wars since the beginning of this country.

Murtha, etc., their behavior and records deserve it.

And there are MORE retired Generals and officers that defended Rummy than those retired Generals and officers that went after Rummy. Robert Kaplan's "Imperial Grunts" disproved those retired Generals and officers that went after Rummy.

Enuff said.

Lurker

Bruce Hayden, that wasn't me challenging you on the stererotyping of Roman Catholics. But all of your posts are excellent and to the point.

Sue

Just for the record, McCain gets trashed because of his stupid policies. It was a bunch of liberal college students that booed him when introduced as a war hero.

Sue

I should have said McCain gets trashed by republicans for his stupid policies. Think McCain-Feingold, The Gang of 14, etc.

kim

Excellent original commentary and discussion, BH. Kerry's actions then, in the intervening years, and now constitute a mystery. I've come to the opinion that his paralysis under Swiftie attack was from knowledge of its truth, but I've also thought it possible that he is so deluded about his service there that he believes he was heroic. But you've given me yet another reason which rings true.

I've wondered at the audacity of Kerry and his advisers to run both as a War Hero and and Anti-war Hero. It is possible to do so, but one must be both a genuine war hero and a genuine anti-war hero, and he fails on the former. The schtick does not work, one-sided. He persists with his pacifist beliefs, and one day they may be useful. In the meantime, there are dangers to confront, which he won't be reminding himslef of today.

To old forgotten, far off things, and battles long ago.

Today, not quite forgotten.
========================

PeterUK

The details of the event for which he was given the Silver Star make no sense at all. Supposedly, a B-40 was fired at the boat and missed. Charlie jumps up with the launcher in his hand, the bow gunner knocks him down with the twin .50, Kerry beaches the boat, jumps off, shoots Charlie, and retreives the launcher.

Sue

Personally, even without the controversy over his anti-war antics, Kerry has absolutely no chance of being the nominee in 2008. Not gonna happen. If they pick an also-ran it will be Gore, not Kerry.

Sue

I have never figured out why the members of the Swift Boats were trashed. Ignore them, think they are lying, whatever, but why dishonor their service by calling over 200 of them liars. ::grin::

Tom Maguire

Typepad is locked up right now, but this passage from the Times describing Kerry's first Purple Heart is also a gem:

The group has sent a letter to Mr. Schachte calling for a meeting with him, Mr. Kerry and two former veterans who maintain — as they did publicly during the campaign — that they were the only other people on the skimmer with Mr. Kerry and that he was wounded in a hail of enemy fire.

What the "hail" is going on!

Here are the two men describing the incident to the Boston Globe reporters for the Globe book, as summarized by, hmm, the Unfit for Command group:

The two men serving alongside Kerry that night had similar memories of the incident that led to Kerry’s first wartime injury. William Zaldonis, who was manning an M-60, and Patrick Runyon, operating the engine, said they spotted some people running from a sampan to a nearby shoreline. When they refused to obey a call to stop, Kerry’s crew began shooting. “When John told me to open up, I opened up,” Zaldonis recalled. Zaldonis and Runyon both said they were too busy to notice how Kerry was hit. “I assume they fired back,” Zaldonis said. “If you can picture me holding an M-60 machine gun and firing it—what do I see? Nothing. If they were firing at us, it was hard for me to tell.”

Runyon, too, said that he assumed the suspected Viet Cong fired back because Kerry was hit by a piece of shrapnel. “When you have a lot of shooting going on, a lot of noise, you are scared, the adrenaline is up,” Runyon said. “I can’t say for sure that we got return fire or how [Kerry] got nicked. I couldn’t say one way or the other. I know he did get nicked, a scrape on the arm.”11

In a separate conversation, Runyon related that he never knew Kerry was wounded. So even in the Globe biography accounting, it was not clear that there was any enemy fire, just a question about how Kerry might have been hit with shrapnel.


Geirar

He's mad he did'nt actually start the war like the CIA and Plame!

Doug Reese

The bow gunner had an M-60, NOT a twin .50.

There was a twin-50, but on the top of the boat/pilot house. He didn't not shoot the VC and has stated such.

The VC was hit in the leg(s), and was quite able to run. He was also quite capable of firing his B-40, and may have been trying to do that when Kerry shot him, as he was turned to his left. Either he was thinking of firning at the boat (he was in a position to do that then), or he was trying to look over his shoulder to see if anyone was following him. We'll never know. Kerry wisely didn't wait to see what he was doing.

Doug Reese

Dwilkers

One thing that has always bothered me is that Kerry never really apologized to all the Vietnam Vets he slandered.

That's the root of this whole thing. If he would have cleaned this up early on - met with the Swift Boat guys and apologized for his winter soldier stuff - my guess is they'd have never come forward the way they did.

It is their deep, burning anger at being slandered the way they were that caused this in the first place.

This is a fight Kerry cannot win. Even if he's right about his record or could prove conslusively that this or that award was valid it wouldn't matter because his real problem is those 70 years old vets and their teary eyed wives talking about their lifetime of shame and anger. That's never going to go away.

In fact the more he fights them the more powerful those images are going to get.

PeterUK

Kerry Home Movie

End specu;ation release his 180.

kim

Anybody else notice the Times didn't go anywhere near the Bronze Star story? This is the least defensible, the point where Kerry's cowardice became most public, and most obviously dangerous.
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richard mcenroe

Doug Reese — Please. The Swift Boats were originally designed and deployed as coastal patrol boats, supporting the USN destroyers and Coast Guard cutters interdicting sea traffic and infiltration from the North. This was when Kerry volunteered for them. Then their mission was changed to send them inland as riverine combatants. Oops.

Even if their history was not well documented, it should be obvious that a heavy 50-foot long, unarmored aluminum boat with a high freeboard (Necessary for safe operation at sea) that hampered the use of its limited weaponry at close range (the much smaller and shallower-draft PBR's carried the same firepower) would not be anyone's first choice for operations in undredged, poorly charted rivers and narrow, twisting paddy canals. But the Navy needed every remotely usable hull inland.

Kerry thought he was signing up for soft duty; needs of the service changed the deal; Kerry cut and ran.

Ron Williams

Here's a letter that I sent to the Swift Boat Vets at the time that "Stolen Honor" was going to be shown. You probably recall that the Democrats stifled an attempt to show the movie, but I felt encouraged by the Swift Boat Vets to support the TV network and I wrote a letter to the network VP in charge of broadcasting.

Letter begins:

(I took your advice and sent a note to Sinclair Broadcasting Company. That was a good idea. See message below. Tonight, I'll be making another contribution to Swiftvets. I hope you feel encouraged by the support that you are receiving. Everyone that I have talked to thinks that you are doing the right thing. Ron Williams)

Dear Sirs:

I am a Vietnam era veteran. I completed my active duty obligation in July 1966, at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, where I had been a member of the 101st Airborne Division. It was about the time that I was being discharged that our first brigade (detached) headed for Vietnam under the command of Colonel Timothy. That seems like such a long time ago.

I support Sinclair Broadcasting's plan to show the "Stolen Honor" documentary before the national elections, because some historical wrongs need to be addressed, no matter how long ago they occurred. I believe that there is no statute of limitations on treachery nor on the theft of honor from one's comrades.

The thirty-five years of political self-aggrandizement that John Kerry has enjoyed by dishonoring our troops is something that must be exposed now and exposed in just those terms. Kerry's pandering to the radical left back in the early 1970s has paid off. The whole Democrat party apparently has become the radical left today. Moderates have been pushed aside.

I was born and reared in Missouri by folks who were FDR Democrats. We read the St. Louis Globe-Democrat, because it was the working man's paper. Harry Truman was a living God to my grandparents on both sides of the family. The Democrats saved our family from ruin during the depression. I heard a lot of that as I was growing up.

My dad was killed in action in Italy in 1945, not long before the war ended in Europe. I was almost five years old when we got the news of his death. Growing up, I never heard anyone accuse him of committing war crimes, ever. I don't believe that he even knew anyone who committed war crimes. But my dad was shooting at folks who did, and that's what got him killed.

Dad was Democrat and proud of it. I used to be a Democrat and I used to be proud of it, too.

I also learned respect not only for Truman when I was a child, but later on in my life for Hubert Humphrey, Scoop Jackson and finally Daniel Patrick Moynihan. My grandparents would not recognize today the party of Nancy Pelosi and Teddy Kennedy, let alone accept the Clintons as anything other than a couple of sleazy opportunists who obliterated the moral underpinnings of the party. The mark of indelible sleaze remains with the Democrat Party every day that Terry McAuliffe presides over that organization.

Do not be discouraged by those who are opposed to your plan to show the Stolen Honor documentary, as the last thing they want the younger voting public to know is that John Kerry would not make a pimple on a Commander in Chief 's butt. John Kerry is a candidate, because he was the only Democrat who could beat Howard Dean in their primaries (all two or three of them). The Democrats found themselves stuck with Kerry and now they have to make the best of a bad choice.

One thing that younger voters need to know is that the Vietnam POWs and the Swiftvets are not liars, but are mainstream Americans (many of them true heroes), who are outraged that a pathological misfit named John Kerry gamed the system in Vietnam and came home to vilify the good guys. Now it's the good guys' turn. Good luck and thank you for having the guts to do this.

Ron Williams

PeterUK

"The VC was hit in the leg(s), and was quite able to run. He was also quite capable of firing his B-40, and may have been trying to do that when Kerry shot him"

I like this,the man was capable of running and capable of firing his rocket launcher,but utterly incapable of defending himself against Kerry,must have been distracted by thre leg wound.

Doug Reese

"Did his best friend in Vietnam die a few weeks later trying to copy that desperately stupid, and cowardly move?"

His name is Don Droz. He was killed April 12, 1969.

While I can't speak for him, or his wife, Judy, I'll make a few comments of my own.

First of all, he was trying to copy nothing. His boat was hit by a B-40, and was totally destroyed. He was killed in the process.

There was nothing stupid about what Kerry did. And calling it cowardly, well, that just shows you don't know much about that particular incident.

Bottom line -- your comment about Don Droz, regardless of your intent, is uncalled for. Don, like all the Swiftees, was a hero. And a comment like your's, especially on Memorial Day, is an insult to his memory.

Doug Reese

linda

my goodness, all you rootin, tootin, tough guys 'bringin it on'. the army desperately needs replacement parts.

http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

what cowardly little pissants you are. lol.

Lurker

Last I looked which was a few weeks ago, the recruitment counts remain positively high so the "desperately needed replacement parts" are already being fulfilled.

One wearing a yellow flag in honor of our soldiers fighting everywhere in the world. Robert Kaplan's "Imperial Grunts" shows that we have troops imbedded in places little known to us.

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Wilson/Plame