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May 07, 2006

Comments

kim

I think so. There comes a tide, etc., and with the realization that he had lost a battle, why fight on?
==============================

jerry

This really is more of the "Shift the Blame Game." Goss is responsible for the unrest in the CIA..., the Agency was wrong about the Iraqi WMDs....

The WH has found military people like Powell so subservient they want to put the CIA under another military guy, at least until Bush leaves office.

The most compelling thing I've read about the Goss story is that both he and Foggo became potential (and public) security risks once their poker partying was revealed, so Negroponte dropped the ax.

kim

Obsessive-Subservient military

Compulsive-Slash at sin
==================================

kim

ChromeDome cruised to the corner, crunching Clarice's pieces of data along with a little banana for bulk. A few moments with eyes widely dilated behind the morning paper, a reverie only broken when the toast popped up. "Toast, it is", he cried, immediately relieved by the microburst of brainwaves, and mindrays. "Wait'll they see what was in those socks."
======================================

Kevin B

Of course this story is in the NYT, which doesn't necessarily mean it's complete nonsense, does mean the 'pinch of salt' rule must apply.

While I agree that differences of opinion between Goss and Negroponte were likely behind the resignation, it would not suprise me if the article's analysis is 180 degrees out.

kim

C'mon, jerry, do you object thtat the military is subservient? And just why is sin more compelling to you in this affair than desperately high stakes politics?
================================

kim

Langley could use a little martial law. The names of critical Iran WMD analysts are leaking out of there.

The fact is that good intelligence chases out bad. Reality intrudes on people like Joe.
=================================

kim

This is the sort of re-organization a night school MBA would find a piece of cake. Keep the roots and trunk, graft on new branches.

Hey, Sultzies!. That's a hint.
====================================

Ched

'Low moral at the agency,' 'People have been fired,' 'Restructuring.' This is old and what is always said to keep the CIA in existence. The problem is in the Directorate of Operations. So, the 'CIA will now focus on collection.' Analysis moved elsewhere? Bush doubled the number of CIA employees in a couple of years. Most of those were in the Directorate of Operations under Goss's predecessor who supposedly believed heavily in human intelligence. That's double the number of Union employees that Bush won't lay off. The military(DIA) is not a union. Putting analysis over to the DIA makes no sense. DIA has its own intelligence and probably the best. They don't need the analyst from CIA, only to keep those union employees employed.

The Directorate of Operations will continue to be a problem as more operations officers retire and choose to out those they have worked with overseas, a problem that was traditionally handled by DOJ under crmininal conspiracy charges against the agent for planning the outings.

The CIA needs to be disbanded. Congress has already tried and it suddenly stopped. Now, we see other retiring operations officers following a pattern of outing that has been proven to be allowed by DOJ. Any operations officer is going to follow a successful pattern. Traditionally, the intelligence community paid for the errors within the operations officer community. Now, we have seen that and a disturbing pattern(successful) that has those outside the intelligence community paying for an operations officer's choice to admit who they are publicy.

Bush chose another retired operations officer to help out CIA. Goss did'nt work out and the new one probably will not work out either. Congress needs to hear that it is time the CIA be retired from the new (operaitons officer) Director. There may have been some hope it Bush had chosen a politician, instead of a retired operations officer. Florida was a good bribe, but Goss was an operations officer not smart enough to realize that it is time for the CIA to go.

Hey Kim, did you get banned by Larry over at No Quarters too?

kim

The 't' is purposeful. Otherwise it's 'Sulzies' which evokes 'Sluzies' which evokes 'sleazy floozy', that Grand Grisdame.
=================================

Lew Clark

Since it's the NYT, a big grain of salt! They are quoting anonymous "intelligence officials". Can we think really hard and figure out who these "intelligence officials" might be? And do we know any instances where they might have lied in the past?

Sticking with my rule. If it's an anonymous source, it's a lie!

That said, my experience with the CIA was that the raw data coming in from the field was not as bogus as, in hindsight, it is reported to be. That data was analyzed and massaged by the "political types" at Langley and converted to mean what they wanted it to mean. Moving "analysis" out of CIA could be shorthand for doing away with these political types with their agendas. And Goss, being the head of an Agency, probably did exactly what any head of an Agency does. Fight to not get it dissolved. Agency heads seldom look at the big picture and go along with the destruction of their "baby" for the greater good.

clarice

Actually, now that we've met some of those analysts--Pillar, Sheuer,Johnson--I think the article may be right. Never heard such drivel:We can live with terrorism, we should determine US foreign policy,OBL is admirable and a great strategist, etc.Not to mention that they seem to have missed everything of importance the last few decades.

kim

Yes, Ched, Larry pointed his channel changer at me. He'd mislaid it the next day, but I'm not wasting anymore mindrays beaming over there. Rent, trampled, I say.
==============================

Sue

Kim,

He'll be sorry he axed us. His posts have dwindled back down to their normal status...almost non-existent. ::grin:: We will be missed. The advertisers will bolt, once again.

Ched

Military is all electronic intelligence and no one knew Goss's CIA predessor was scamming the intelligence community by ordering all those human intelligence agents(Bush doubled them).

No one is this stupid.

clarice

Hoekstra and Chambliss oppose putting a military man in charge of the CIA. Capt Ed predicts the President will name someone else to the post. http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/006931.php

Would he still work if he resigned his Military post?

Gary Maxwell

Just curious Jerry Are you always an ass or do you just paly one on the internet?

Other Tom

I assume that Hayden will retire, although it's not necessary that he do so. He would be the seventh military man to head the agency (so I heard on Fox News). I believe that the disastrous Stansfield Turner remained on active duty as a four-star Admiral. In any event, I still believe Bush should have fired George Tenet on September 12, 2001, and begun a housecleaning from top to bottom.

Carol Herman

In a world of spooks the work they do is similar to breaking and entering; planting devices. Or even false stories. Maybe, printing counterfeit money along with counterfeit documents? It's not the work any political entity can claim they have knowledge of; yet it is a necessity.

The CIA, however, has been rutterless, and clueless, and failure-ridden, for quite some time. WHILE THOSE INSIDE CAN FIND JOBS ELSEWHERE.

Plame, by the way, is an example of "eye-candy." Hired when she was 20-somthing, to provide amusement.

Her husband, Joe Wilson, previously married to a french spook, is DEEP into french malfeasance. That the donks think they wer going to take down Bush with this crap shows ya that less than clever minds have been in charge for awhile.

No surprises, here. Look where Mary Mapes took Dan Rather.

At least our President is not the fool Nixon was. Who was surrounded with bad staff, and who didn't use the firing gun. This President gets out of messes, as soon as he realizes "he's got a Barry Bonds" problem on his hands. (Well, he fired Bonds and took a lot of flak for doing so. But time's proven he's a great manager.)

The CIA, meanwhile, is a manure heap. And, the real argument is whose in charge of the budget? You hearing Congress screaming? They thought it was their "purse." Only to discover that intelligence money falls into the hands of the new Director. How'd you get a new Director? Congress created this monster in its 9/11 Omission/Commission. Funny, how the PResident made sounds, then, that he didn't like it. As he booted George Tenet out the door.

As poker players go, Bush is an ace. Or, he's got the aces. And, the position at the table that others risked more when they gambled with him.

Interesting, too, that Bush gave his enemies a weekend, before he makes t'marra's announcement. As exciting as watching the crown going to a new Miss America. People are tuned in. And, the Net's providing a lot of competition to the "talking heads." So be it.

richard mcenroe

Kim — Because it IS all about sex, and of course, nobody should lie about it...pauses as the latest e-mail from the DCCC begins to smoke in the printer...

clarice

Interesting. Red Pepper a lefty UK site no longer has this article on its online archives, but it appears that someone at F.R. archived it. It's from July 7, 2003, suggests that WMDs will be Bush' Watergate and quotes a "state department official with ties to the CIA" http://www.redpepper.org.uk/July2003/x-July2003-dreyfuss.html

larwyn

Carol H,
Not only did GW give them a weekend to go overboard, as usual,
but as the very bright squiggle posted:

"Monday is Tony's {Snow} first day"

I have been betting that the WH correspondents are into heavy drinking this weekend trying to figure out what tack there will take on Monday.

Outright call Tony a liar, when he says this was in works for awhile, that Goss wanted to retire etc etc.

You know that Tony will have interviews set up for later on Monday on how 1st day as Press Sec. went.

So WH correspondents won't get to spin. And think all will be tuned into CSPAN if, in fact, the cable news nets don't carry this news making event LIVE.

Rest up today, tomorrow is gonna
be "a bumpy ride" for the LSM!

larwyn

squiggleR!

ghostcat

Rodney Dangerfield here.

clarice

*Clarification******, the red pepper article is cached on google . The wayback site says it was published on July 7, 2003 (pre Novak) but it is inaccessible there.

Larry

Carol, unless G W was owner of the Pirates, he never had an opportunity to fire Bonds. Pittsburgh and S F are the only 2 major league teams he's played for.

ajacksonian

Boxes will be moved on org charts.

Vacancies will be filled by old-timers.

Nothing will happen.

Intelligence Community Reformulation is absolutely necessary in the modern era. This Cold War relic of internecine bureaucratic empire building must end if We the People are to be served against Our enemies.

It will not happen with this Administration or this Congress.

By not having a 'Dot Connecting Enabled' IC, we will all lose. We are exactly as safe as we were on 9/10. We only go after what is known and hope the unknown will not bite us.

Again.

windansea

Jason's latest at truthout

News reports over the past two years about Rove's legal troubles have centered on the fact that Rove allegedly failed to disclose to Fitzgerald and the grand jury a conversation he had with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper in July 2003 about Plame Wilson and her husband, Iraq war critic Joseph Wilson, and an email Rove sent to then Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley about his conversation with Cooper.

While that issue continues to be a central focus in the case against Rove, what has not been previously reported is the fact that there are dozens of other memos and emails Rove sent to White House officials in June 2003, including former Chief of Staff Andrew Card, in which Rove suggests the White House launch a full scale public relations effort to attack Joseph Wilson for speaking out against the administration.

Rove did not disclose the communications when he was questioned by FBI investigators in 2003 and during his subsequent grand jury appearances, sources familiar with his testimony said. Some of those emails and memos recently discovered by the White House mention Valerie Plame Wilson's employment with the CIA.

According to sources close to the case, the emails also contained suggestions by Rove, and by senior officials in Vice President Dick Cheney's office and at the National Security Council, on how the White House should respond to what it believed were increasingly destructive comments Wilson had been making about the administration's pre-war Iraq intelligence.


Loki

windansea, what you say, even if true, can not be viewed as Obstruction of Justice, vis-a-vis Arthur Andersen LLP V The United States.

It is not a violation of Title XVIII, Section 1623 of the US Criminal code.

clarice

In any event, if this were true and constituted obstruction, why wasn't he indicted before? Luskin and Novak's testimony only goes to the email to Hadley about the Cooper conversation.

Kate

The e-mails were sent to people who have clearances and are authorized to receive them.

Rove was the political guy and he would be doing the pushback against Wilson.

My understanding is that the focus was on leaking to unauthorized people ...like reporters.

Not sure this is a problem unless Rove is mentioning Plame before Novack's column and encouraging a leak of her name which I would doubt.

Sara (Squiggler)

Thanks Larwyn ... today is my birthday so everyone be nice! The Squiggler

clarice

Happy Birthday!!!

PeterUK

Make the most of it Squiggler,your are only 25 once.

Sara (Squiggler)

Thanks Clarice.

larwyn

Do Not Keep This Message - Vanderleun could quickly save the world

All JOMists will really love this to send to our loved ones -

but most fun to send to those such as David Shuster and his
ilk, not to mention those visitors that have never read anything like this having the burden of a "liberal" upbringing

Gerard:
Do not keep this message.

ONE OF MY HARD AND FAST RULES is to never, but never, pass along chain-letters.

"TWENTY-TWO. Know when to break hard and fast rules."

========
This must leave your hands in 6 MINUTES. Otherwise you will get a very unpleasant surprise. This is true, even if you are not superstitious, agnostic, or otherwise faith impaired.

ONE. Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully.

TWO. Marry a man/woman you love to talk to. As you get older, their conversational skills will be as important as any other.

{......}

TEN. In disagreements, fight fairly. No name calling.

{......}

TWELVE. Talk slowly but think quickly.

You'll want them all to share.

Lew Clark

Saying Rove sent emails to other cleared government officials about Lying Joe Wilson's treasons doesn't surprise anyone except the moonbats. If be weren't on top of it, as political guru, he should have been fired. The Democrat's big phony political spin, and Rove ignores it?
Now, if they can find the document from Rove that says "We have to silence Joe Wilson, his wife is covert with CIA, out her to the press so Joe shuts up", then he needs to be fired for stupidity. Perjury and obstruction would probably fly because he testified (I think) that there was no plan to out her to get Joe. Your average 12 year old could read the scenario and say "Outing her won't shut Joe up, it will make him scream louder". Threatening to out her if he didn't shut up might work, except neither he nor she cared if she got outted again. And if they only threatened, Joe would have trampled someone to death to get to a microphone, especially after the Novak article. Joe has never said they threatened, he has always said they just up and did it.
This latest salvo, if true, is for the mindless public. Rove was talking about Joe to other government officials and who/how he got sent comes up. I bet Val's immediate supervisor and Tenet were talking about her in closed door sessions. They need to go to jail too. To say nothing about her hairdressers and waiters. You know how they talk!

Neo

If anyone reports seeing Jack Bauer anywhere near any of this, epsecially if he says he is having a bad day, run for the hills.

windansea

windansea, what you say, even if true, can not be viewed as Obstruction of Justice, vis-a-vis Arthur Andersen LLP V The United States.

I didn't say it...Jason Leopold did :)

Syl

Squiggler

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

Everyone

Doesn't it seem to you that this business with changing the CIA is not unlike the business of changing the military? Big jobs. Rumsfeld has been more successful, it seems, than his counterpart(s).

And in both cases disgruntled employees, retired and not, have whined to a sympathetic press. And the Democrats have hitched their wagon to disgruntled employees and their accusations. Off into the sunset, all of them, as Bush completes his job.

Neo

Syl:
Don't hand out credit for wagon hitching, but they do give it legs.

larwyn

Sluming - Here's a terrific little
roadmap to the Moonbats today.

Kim reported at 6:45AM that K/S/S was scannin Clarice's data.

Is this what he did with it?

World War III: "The Truth? You Can't Handle the Truth"

BUSH STATES WHAT HAS BEEN OBVIOUS FOR OVER FOUR YEARS ( Bush says fight against terror is 'World War III' ) and the ripping sound of twisting knickers and busted bodices echos across the blogosphere.

The Technorati count is north of 2,600 and its the weekend.

You have to wonder what morally-relativistic, rainbow colored, secular fundament these folks have been wearing for a hat for years. What part of "airplanes into sky-scrapers followed by endless sermons of Hate America and various video tapes shrieking Death to Americans" do they not understand? Have they not gotten the memos from Iran for the last 27 years? Maybe we should set up a fund to buy them all tickets to "United 93" complete with those lidlock devices from "Clockwork Orange." But then again, it has been established that for many, seeing is not believing.

A small selection of today's widespread "loss of blogger control:"

{LARGE SNIP HERE WITH LINKS}

Enter the Illuminatus, stage left: "Grimgrin: have you read Robert Anton Wilson's "Illuminatus!" trilogy lately?"
Delusions of Power: "Isn't Bush a public servant? Can't we demand that he is drug tested?"
Wanting the President killed: "It would be ever so nice if some nutbar would just up and solve the problem. Surely the Administration isn't that difficult to eliminate. Hell, isn't it practically traditional for Presidents to get assassinated? Even Reagun got in on it."

On and on, and this meme is less than a day old. My own personal explanation for the Bush comment is that it was cunningly planted in his speech by Karl Rove in order to cause fatal brain embolisms in those afflicted with severe Bush Derangement Syndrome and thin out the opposition voters at this year's elections.

Like all fiendish Rovian Plots it seems to be working.....Vanderleun

Gerard doesn't know about our Goddess yet!

mark c

am i right in seeing the cia shakeup as another example of the new approach to goverment reform? this approach seems to be to allow the offending agency to wither on the vine by reducing responsibilities and funding while building a new agency around it like a wall around a dangerous hole.

larwyn

Syl,
Can't you see Rovian/Negroponte hand (both offspring of Machaivelli) in this.

Great SENATE HEARINGS with the DEMS fighting for Terrorists rights.


How soon they forget about Stanfield Turner - who keeps popping up on CNN.

How about thought that the Repubs out there today talking down the appointment of Gen Hayden, are part of the trap - to encourage the DEMS to go as wacky is there norm.

Neo

larwyn:

I always go for my dose of reality to here or here. An be sure to check out some of their links for more reality than anyone can fit in a can.


clarice

Speaking of R/S/S. Soylent's offering Friday night was his very best. I regret I did not bookmark it. Is there's an artist or graphic designer here, contact him. We have a multimillion dollar comic book series at hand..and then there are movie rights!..

narciso79

Is the minimu I.Q for Congressman dropping; Vandenburg, Hillenkoetter, Bedell Smith, three of the four first CIA directors were
former military men; Back in the day, there
was controversy over missing the Czech coup
'etat, the Bogotazo, which had Fidel in a
supporting role, and the Korean invasion;
the last claimed Hillenkoetter, I'll leave out Admirals Raborn, and Turner, since they
are widely regarded as disaster; but that
does make five. Besides, Hayden was an AF
intelligence officer, fluent in Bulgarian;
(where else is he going to take that MOS)

clarice

**IF, not iS*****there's an artist....

Lew Clark

Good post narciso, but one nit pick. Hayden was/is in the Air Force. He never had a MOS, he had an AFSC.

MayBee

If those emails exist, it will be interesting who received them and what they said. Someone told Leopold about them.

I would be interested to know if any of them address the personal attacks Joe Wilson/Murray Waas say were launched against Joe. The women and drugs thing. Never actually happened, but if they show up in the emails, it would mean someone who saw the emails told Wilson about them. (Grossman?!)

Lew Clark

Email from Rove to Tenet: What's the status on VP's mission, does she have enough to nail JW and his gang?

Email from Tenet to Rove: Val says it’s going as planned, but we have to play along if we're going to get them all. Tell Scooter he'll have to twist in the wind for a long time, but the end result will be worth it.

PeterUK

Email from Val,"But did I have to get pregnant?"

Jeff

Wow, narciso, meet the kettle.

Wow, PeterUK, you're an ugly ugly man.

Tom - Ever noticed how when you post something that wanders ever so slightly off the reservation, its off-the-reservation-ness is utterly ignored by your commenters?

wickedpinto

One of the ways to isolate a "rogue" servant, or an "unhappy" employee from any situation, is to create a situation of continuous flux. I hope hayden takes control, chases down some "leakers" also called "Traitors" and then in 6 months there is another change, and 6 months later.

I think that perhaps that is why the CIA has always had a constantly copening and closing door for it's directors.

Charlie (Colorado)

Make the most of it Squiggler,your are only 25 once.

Nonsense. My mother was 25 dozens of times.

Charlie (Colorado)

I do so hate pointing this out, but this whole thing about the NDI taking over analysis was pretty much required when they gave the NDI responsibility for making the final call and briefing NCA. Why? Because that "making the call and briefing" is what analysis is.

I doubly hate pointing it out because back when they decided to have an NDI (whose job description is almost exactly what the DCI's job was supposed to be) I said at the time that the only way it could work is oif the reduced CIA to the Directorate of Operations (which is now called the "National Clandestine Service") and the collection parts of the Directorate of Intelligence, and moved analysis elsewhere. Whatever the original intention had been, making the DCI both in charge of a major collection and operations agency and in charge of being the objective gatekeeper for NCA was doomed. Eventually the bureaucratic impulse wins.

cathyf

I dunno, Charlie, your mom must have been a radical. The traditional birthday to stop at is 39. ("I'm celebrating my 39th birthday today. Yes, it was very nice. In fact, it was a few years back now that you mention it...")

cathy :-)

clarice

Yes, Charlie, I think you're right. Now, if Congress doesn't like that let's hear them complain about what they just mandated.

BTW, it may be this appointment is a poker play..yet another chance to remind the voters that the Dems would rather we take another hit than that we listen in on AQ phone calls.

MayBee

Is this the "off the reservation" comment?

And all of this came to a head on a Friday morning. Uh huh.

First of all, what reservation are we on?
Second, what is it TM find unbelievable about this coming to a head on Friday morning? Either something came to a head on Friday morning, or Porter Goss had planned on resigning that day. I must be missing something.

boris

Everything that happens is another dot for Jeff to connect. Always reading between the lines and knowing what's really happening behind the scenes.

Like the guy in the nut ward who appears normal at first and pretends he's there by mistake, but about two minutes into the rap you get why he's there.

pollyusa

clarice,

Interesting article, thanks for the link and the publish date.

I did notice that the "state department official with ties to the CIA" is actually a former State Department official.

But a former State Department official with CIA connections questions whether Scowcroft has the fortitude for such an investigation:
Red Pepper 7/07/03

clarice

Yes, until May 2003, his public statements indicated he (Wilson) was essentially a Scowcroftian ..That changed in May 2003.

ordi

WaPo's Monday AM Plame Game offering. (sorry if posted by others above)

Waiting Near an End for Rove in CIA Leak Case

By Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 8, 2006; A01

Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald is wrapping up his investigation into White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove's role in the CIA leak case by weighing this central question:

Did Rove, who was deeply involved in defending President Bush's use of prewar intelligence about Iraq, lie about a key conversation with a reporter that was aimed at rebutting a tough White House critic?

Fitzgerald, according to sources close to the case, is reviewing testimony from Rove's five appearances before the grand jury. Bush's top political strategist has argued that he never intentionally misled the grand jury about his role in leaking information about undercover CIA officer Valerie Plame to Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper in July 2003. Rove testified that he simply forgot about the conversation when he failed to disclose it to Fitzgerald in his earlier testimony.

Fitzgerald is weighing Rove's foggy-memory defense against evidence he has acquired or accumulated over nearly 2 1/2 years that shows Rove was very involved in White House efforts to beat back allegations that Bush twisted U.S. intelligence to justify the Iraq war, according to sources involved in the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/07/AR2006050700717_pf.html

pollyusa

Oh, I think I see...you think the source in the Red Pepper article may be Wilson?

clarice

Yes.

pollyusa

could be

clarice

I can't think of another "former State department official with CIA ties" who hangs with McGovern and was blabbing about this stuff in June 2003.

JM Hanes

So, Jeff, Slumming are we?

Tom, any luck on finding a token lib who's not an asshole yet?

topsecretk9

But a former State Department official with CIA connections

sorry, with out context or having read thorough...but...Larry C. Johnson??

topsecretk9

--Tom - Ever noticed how when you post something that wanders ever so slightly off the reservation, its off-the-reservation-ness is utterly ignored by your commenters?--

Emptiness...there is a song...but you spend a WHOLE lotta time buttering up before you come here...

topsecretk9

Here is what I wanna know, does Goss have a decent case against Larry C. Johnson for "smearing" for being quoted in a newspaper for "speculating" about Goss?


Just curious, cuz Wilson was gonna sue Vallely, but never got around to it...

Kate

I always wondered who the insider was that was urging investigators to keep investigating the White House, that it was revenge.

I had thought Powell, he has faults but would never be that destructive.

I also thought the lady communications officer in VP Cheney's office.

Now it turns out it was Grossman.

What a weak case.

PeterUK

Jeff,your opinion on anything is utterly irrelevant.

Dwilkers

Tom - Ever noticed how when you post something that wanders ever so slightly off the reservation, its off-the-reservation-ness is utterly ignored by your commenters?

Tell it to Greenwald.

Since we're all members of the Bush cult you'd think he'd be getting blasted.

Or maybe we all just realize TM is carefully concealing his true cult and right-winger status in an effort to appear reasonable. You know, to fool people.

Or maybe that's all a lot of horseshit and TM has an opinion, others have opinions, and they're all open for discussion if they remain even modestly tethered to reality.

Nah. That can't be it.

boris

if they remain even modestly tethered to reality

Or in Jeffy's case, not.

noah

There could be a virtual thunderstorm of dropping shoes this week...stay tuned.

How nice of Jeff to refer to JOM as a "circle jerk". As far as I can tell his arguments have been responded to more or less respectfully. I continue to maintain that he is a "lunatic retard" but I will give the devil his due...his delusions are persistent.

Tom Maguire

I continue to maintain that he is a "lunatic retard" but I will give the devil his due...his delusions are persistent.

Any short list of "Most Knowledgable Plame Obervers" would have to include Jeff.

Its only his reluctance to embrace the Cult of Bush that is problematic.

kim

What I think is so cool is that Jeff tempers the discussion at both extremes. I've watched him burst balloons at empathywheel, and concede points, here. Such balance would ordinarily point the way to the truth, except for the fact that BDS has completely warped he and his into the belief that a legitimate White House pushback to a serious disinformation campaign was somehow a criminal conspiracy.
=====================================

maryrose

In my opinion Pollyusa is a reasonable good person to debate with because she listens well and provides interesting and relevant points.
Noah: Agreed this is the week for interesting developments. Now is the time for reporters and other parties privy to information to spill the goods so we can see what's behind door number 3. It's confession time and I don't know how much longer those 5 reporters identities can stay hidden.

boris

Its only his reluctance to embrace the Cult of Bush that is problematic.

Jeff's enviable command of details and documents is marred by at least two whoppers.

The Fleischer and Libby sent Dickerson to the CIA expecting Plame's discovery thereby knowing she was classified.

That Valerie only updated Joe's resume and had nothing to do with proposing the mission or recommending Joe for it. Therefore even thoug she marginally participated in an unofficial mission (apparently anti-admin) that went public, it was a cheap shot for the rotten rat ass bastards to "out" her.

The point Jeff has never addressed is this, since any harm that came to Val did not come through Libby why the hostility?

boris

That Valerie only updated Joe's resume and had nothing to do with proposing the mission, recommending Joe for it, or going public is simply not credible. Not for a between the line reader and behind the scene knower.

That Fleischer and Libby could expect Dickerson to discover Plame was CIA from the CIA knowing she was classified is simply nuts.

One might rebut "but but Harlow at CIA DID spill the beans!". So ??? Not so classified then.

Cecil Turner

Its only his reluctance to embrace the Cult of Bush that is problematic.

You have to admit the thought process that invents the "Cult of Bush"--and insists every conservative is a member, but then expresses shock when one doesn't--evinces a certain, well, mental flexibility. (The same could be said for the quaint notion that Colbert was so funny he must be taken seriously . . . but I digress.)

Moreover, the whole groupthink mind cult thing looks a lot like projection. I'd note the recent Bob Somerby piece:

Shuster’s statement was howlingly wrong; an hour later, Keith Olbermann said the same thing. But so what? It felt good when Shuster said it—even though it was baldly inaccurate. So you guessed it! Crooks and Liars posted the tape which included Shuster’s howling misstatement—and Christy Hardin Smith, at firedoglake, linked to the tape. “Now that is reporting,” Smith enthused, linking to Shuster’s howler.

Shuster makes a howling error. But we don’t correct it; we link to and praise it!

I'd further suggest such persistent factual errors are a bit more persistent on sites where unpopular comments are routinely "disappeared" (or voted into the bit bucket). And that it ought to be obvious to a reader who can manage even a bit of objectivity.

Sue

I'd further suggest such persistent factual errors are a bit more persistent on sites where unpopular comments are routinely "disappeared" (or voted into the bit bucket).

I just felt that needed repeating.

kim

Is Joe still running off his yap, or has he gone to ground?
===================================

clarice

Sweetness & Light may have a humdinger up today on the case. I'll post it when I see it.

kim

Right now, S&L has McGovern in a 2/7/03 article echoing Joe Wilson's 2/6/03 op-ed in the LATimes arguing that we shouldn't invade Iraq because Saddam would use his WMD on our troops.

Yardarms ho.
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maryrose

All the false meme are coming home to roost. Somersby's revelation of wrong reporting repeatedly reported[Say that three times fast} just shows how desperate MSNBC has become about getting more viewwers. They have to make up news out of wholecloth in order to get people and then doofus Oelbermann has to repeat it. Wasn't he fired a couple of years ago from another network?

Dwilkers

Well. I admit I was having doubts too as I posted in the other thread. The idea that the WH knew about this prior to Friday struck me as pure spin. We had 2 stories, one that Goss was having a conflict with Negroponte and the other was that the CIA was all cleaned up and ready to go, Goss' job was done and it was time to hire a new guy.

Didn't make any sense to me because if the CIA was all cleaned up then why was someone fired only a week or so ago for politically motivated leaking?

And if it was about a policy dispute and it was all known in advance then why didn't they have the replacement all ready and all?

I was pretty worried there was something we weren't being told. That there might be some scandal. I figured the best possible idea was Goss went to the WH and threw the keys to the CIA in the president's face last Friday because he was pissed he lost money at the Thursday night poker game and was still hungover or something like that.

---------------------

Then Clarice and kim showed up at the house this weekend with brochures on the cult re-eduction camps and I realized that was all crazy thinking. Everything's fine, its all in the master plan.

pollyusa

Cecil

There were a couple of commenters on the left blogs shooting down the Shuster claim

These comments didn't disappear but were largely ignored.

clarice

can't think of another "former State department official with CIA ties" who hangs with McGovern and was blabbing about this stuff in June 2003.

You may be right, I honestly don't know enough about the State Department to make a guess.

maryrose - thanks

Any short list of "Most Knowledgable Plame Obervers" would have to include Jeff. Without question

pollyusa

Q: Did Goss just get fired because he is failing to cover for Bush on the torture issue?

A: I dunno. Let's waterboard him and find out.

That was my favorite too

clarice

maryrose, Crticial rhetoric added more to that last night.
I think evidence is mouting that Joe and the VIPers wer spreadint the tale at least as early as May and Joe was buffing up his credentials by telling reporters of his "CIA connections".

clarice

**werE spreadinG***********

Sue

"former State department official with CIA ties"

Did I miss something? Is this not Joe Wilson himself?

clarice

Dwikers, Mac who has been defending the appointment hinted early this morning that Hoekstra may have a point. We'll see.
I don't know what this is all about but I do know the new law substantially reduces the role of the CIA in the new intel establishment. Whether Goss did what he was tasked to do and was finished I don't know.

That was info from Mac.

I do hope his report that MOM is singing is not erroneous. We can't afford much more of this intel service game playing now.

clarice

Sue, I think it is..and critical rhetoric's posting adds to that supposition.

kim

Dame MesshuGris.

All the Fools the Nits have Picked.
===========

Marianne

Dana Priest wrote that 85% of CIA employees are Republicans. Is the objective now to clear out the other 15%? Or is merely being Republican not enough - should CIA employees be required to be part of the Cheney/Rumsfeld branch of the Republican Party?

Sue

Marianne,

Dana Priest quoted someone as saying that 85% of CIA employees are Republicans. Anonymously, of course.

kim

M; no the objective is to clear out those who believe in manipulated regime change, domestically.

C; some of this stuff is moving from de facto treason to de jure. That noose may have improved Mary's audibility.
=================================

Jeff

How nice of Jeff to refer to JOM as a "circle jerk".

Note that I did no such thing. Note that it was windansea who referred to TNH as such. Moreover, I emphatically do not believe that TM is a member of the Cult of Bush; he just offers useful arguments for it from a somewhat ironic distance from time to time.

the belief that a legitimate White House pushback to a serious disinformation campaign was somehow a criminal conspiracy.

That is not my belief. My belief is that a White House pushback against a critic involved both the correction of inaccurate information in the media and dishonorable conduct lacking integrity, neither of which are, of course, illegal. I also believe that in the course of the dishonorable, sleazy phase of the pushback, there was an effort to discredit Wilson using his wife's affiliation with the CIA and purported role in his Niger trip. And I believe that at least one person, and perhaps his boss as well, did something illegal in so doing. I very strongly believe that for reasons of both legal and polical cover, that same person lied, and lied criminally, about his and others conduct in the pushback.

boris - I can only say to you what I've said before. Quack, heal thyself!

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Wilson/Plame