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May 20, 2006

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kim

So, James, we have perceived ambiguity on the part of Fitz as to the meaning of the underlining and annotations. Is he after Cheney?

For what, being good? When I first read those underlinings, I noted that he had identified every point that was either a lie by Joe or a failure of policy or procedure. Probably cold, because a lot of what Joe had written was new(so what else is new). It is an amazing performance, and simply because Cheney had guessed(cherchez la femme) at the flash point in the woodpile, Fitz projects criminal conspiracy. It's just got to be early influence.
==========================================

Kate

I don't think Fitz is after Cheney at all. He's saying that Libby, being a good chief-of-staff acted on Cheney's wishes to undermine Wilson's lies, er, story.

I think Fitz is trying to save his case.

kim

Notice the repeated use of Mr. grossman's name? I'll bet Fitz would like to have a little conversation with Marc. He could say the devil made him do it.
===================================

sad

Fitz is scared of the left blogosphere and lamestream media. They lionized him and he has continued to let them down by "delaying" the indictment of Rove. He has to do salvage something or they will rend him like jackals.

clarice

I think the Cheney annotations claim was so preposterous it's time to file a complaint with the OPR and on yesterday's thread we are doing a draft of a complaint..VOlunteer for duty if you can and wish to.

maryrose

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Libby's lawyers are matching Fitz point per point. He is up against some real top dogs. Take Kenny Rogers' advice-Know when to fold em Fitz!

Sara (Squiggler)

I went and read TM's cite for Jencks.

Question: does testifying in the GJ count or does the testimony have to be in an actual trial?

Sara (Squiggler)

Echoing Clarice ... be sure to come back over to the Straight Shooter thread and put in your two cents. If you don't want to read the whole thing, start in the 6ish AM timeframe forward.

Bruce Hayden

I think that Libby's attorneys are putting Fitz in a box and then making it smaller and smaller as they go on. This is because it seems like every time Fitz argues against proposed discovery by Libby, he gives up a little bit of his case. It is almost as if he is saying, I don't want to give you those documents, so I will give up going in that direction. Then, in another direction, and another, etc.

Of course, as Libby's attorneys admit, they do have an uphill battle, given the jury pool they will face.

But right now, I think that Libby's lawyers are outlawyering Fitz, though, as someone pointed out earlier, Libby might have avoided this whole thing if he had lawyered up right in the first place.

But that is the problem. If any time someone has to talk to the FBI, or go before a grand jury, they have to have the type of counsel Libby has now acquired, it would be cost prohibitive, esp. given the salaries paid for these positions.

Jim E.

I do have some local news to break: it look like our clarice will be leaving the United States. Yep, clarice’s so upset with America that she—according to clarice, anyways—will be leaving us. It’s not clear if she will renounce her citizenship as well, but it is clear—again, according to her—that she will no longer reside among the 50 states.

Last month, several commenters were discussing the several newspaper and magazine articles that Fitz said he would introduce as evidence. (See comments to TM’s post: “Libby’s Team Replies on Disclosure,” April 12, 2006.) clarice was very upset at the idea that news stories would be admitted into evidence. She was so upset, she wrote: “When this crap rises to the level of evidence, I'm leaving the country.”

Well, even Libby’s own lawyers disagree with clarice about what constitutes "crap." In their most recent filing, they write: “The defense does not object to the notion that news articles will constitute admissible evidence in this case.” In addition, they suggest that *they* will be entering some articles of their own into evidence. What clarice calls "crap," Libby's lawyers call "evidence."

Therefore. . . Bon Voyage, clarice!

Patton

Fitz would say that it is relevant what Cheney was saying/doing even if Libby was not there and not aware...and nothing anyone else said or did that may help Libby is relevant..

and the judge appears willing to agree.

kim

Yes, Jim E., evidence of the crap that you just stepped into largely.
========================================

Patton

Wow, Jim E. you really don't have a life do you.

He's really got you over a barrel here Clarice, I hate to see you go..but what can I say, the man has got your number.

Of course, he doesn't say what country you were in when you posted...you could be leaving France for all we know.

Jim E. put a call out to the lefty blogospere post haste, we need to track down
this huge issue you've discovered.

And if you don't do it immediately, I'm leaving the country!!

clarice

Jim E--the judge wants to keep this case within reasonable parameters and seemed at the hearing to find reasonable Fitz' suggestion that files elsewhere in the Administration should not have to be turned over to Libby because this was a small case. As TM notes, Fitz, however, through in the Cheney notes which would certainly not be probative in the small case because as Libby never saw them they could hardly have affected his state of mind.
Libby will win either way--that article will not be introdcued as evidence or Libby will get all the discovery he asked for.

And in the process, we have seen once again that Fitz is manipulating public opinion by misrepresenting the facts of this case in his pleadings..I think the judge will be very angry at Fitz.

Barney Frank

JIM E,

Is it just possible there was perhaps some context to clarice's statement?

For instance it is quite obvious that newspaper articles rise to the level of evidence in, say, a defamation suit.

Patton

And by the way Jim E. Clarice was referring to specific articles that talked about taking revenge against Wilson, not all articles, all the time.

But I must admit you really dug deep and found her wanting.....way to go kiddo...get yourself another beer.

obsessed

How you folks can summon the energy to defend the Bush Administration in the face of such damning information as this article on the mismanagement of the Iraq War.

Let's say that it was a good idea to invade Iraq. If I believed that, as you all do, I would be even MORE angry that the effort has been so horrendously bungled.

Lurker

1. Robert Kaplan's book, "Imperial Grunts" disproves Colin Powell's assessment of higher number of troops.

2. How long did it take to fight the Nazis after the conclusion of World War II and reconstruct Germany?

3. War is over.

4. Al Qaeda is losing the war.

5. In spite of "errors" (people do commit errors after each and every war), it's working.

Sara (Squiggler)

Oh puhleeeeeeeeeze obsessed: The Iraq War has been over for a long long time. Iraq and the United States are allies and on the same side fighting the War on Terror. Iraq is but one battleground. How can you all be so dense? It boggles the mind.

kim

Poor, ob, depending on the Old Gray Gossip for his take on Iraq. If Sistani hadn't been as forgiving as Jesus, we'd be in trouble over there. As it is, he's got it as well in hand as could be expected after a century or so of misguided secular rule.
=========================

Sara (Squiggler)

Of course, as the Zarquawi letter pointed out ... the only people left in the entire world that believe that al-Queda are winning are the American media. God Bless their lazy ass souls.

kim

Ob's just trying to pull a huge ugly blanket over the corpse of Fitz's case.

I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't all just a set-up to really get MSM and the Dems criticizing the war, then pulling the carpet magically from underneath their feet with electric Iraqi translations and pragmatic Iraqi legislations.
===============================

Lurker

One post at TO said that CNN reported this morning that Fitz will announce a Rove indictment Monday morning.


Oh puleeaze....

kim

So now, tell me; is Chalabi or Rove the Master of the Bazaar?
======================================

kim

Lurker, there was one a few days ago which actually stated that CNN had announced it on TV on early news. The celebration had started to swing, feet were jiggling, and the rug looked forward to the death of a thousand cuts, when someone remarked that they'd been watching CNN and there had been no such announcement.

They are such slaves to their pitiful little faith.
==============================

jwest

Since TM’s away and a few “open thread” liberties are being taken….

Could someone with the research skills/nexis access help with a question I’ve wondered about for a while now?

Out the original Kerry “Band of Brothers” (I believe there were 9 in all) is there any information post-election on interviews, comments, anything? Has anyone seen or heard from these guys or are they still chained to the wall in the dank recesses of one of Teresa’s French chateaus?

Only one was allowed to speak to the press during the election cycle, so I was just curious if any one of them had anything to say after it was over.

Sara (Squiggler)

Well Kim, the translations of those documents are coming fast and furious, multiple elections have been held AND Iraq's parliament approved a national unity government Saturday (today)...In a show of hands, the 275-member parliament approved each of the 39 Cabinet ministers proposed by incoming Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. The new Shiite Muslim, Sunni Arab and Kurdish ministers then took their oaths of office during the nationally televised session in Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone.

The installation, coming after months of political wrangling following Dec. 15 parliamentary elections, completed a democratic process that began after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime in the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

But then you knew that ... too bad the Kiddie Korps doesn't understand it yet.

kim

jwest, I suspect that the Man of God, David Alston is searching his soul. He may get right with his God or he mayn't. It is his choice.
====================================

Cecil Turner

There is an interesting dynamic in the discovery for this case, where the Defense relies on the Government for much of its information (including all of the classified bits), in that the roles seem to switch from traditional arguments on materiality. That is, the Defense view of relevance is much broader than usual, and the Government is much narrower. I suspect those roles will largely reverse when the arguments switch to admissibility, though some of the dynamic is inherent in the subject matter.

Also worth noting is that Fitz appears to imply that Libby saw the annotated article (060405 response, p.19):

At some point after the publication of the July 6, 2003 Op Ed by Mr. Wilson, Vice President Cheney, defendant’s immediate superior, expressed concerns to defendant regarding whether Mr. Wilson’s trip was legitimate or whether it was in effect a junket set up by Mr. Wilson’s wife.
Of course, that would be literally correct if the VP merely wrote the marginal notes intending Libby to see them (whether or not he actually did) . . . and Fitz seems to tend toward overstatement (e.g., the bit about confirming to Cooper). However, it also meshes awfully well with the indictment point 18:
Also on or about July 8, 2003, LIBBY met with the Counsel to the Vice President in an anteroom outside the Vice President’s Office. During their brief conversation, LIBBY asked the Counsel to the Vice President, in sum and substance, what paperwork there would be at the CIA if an employee’s spouse undertook an overseas trip.
Expect Fitz to argue he can show Libby probably saw the article, and hence it's different from the stuff the Defense wants. Walton, based on past rulings, will probably buy it.

kim

jwest, his own crewmembers were on 'family vacations' according to Newsweek all through August, when they could have been manning the guns for Kerry. But Alston knew that he had run the whole candidacy's boat up on high ground, tilting the guns too high; so why bother, let the madman chase off alone.
=====================================

Sara (Squiggler)

Cecil, I read the VP's remark to be a WTF remark and reflecting his incredulity about the pro bono trip. It doesn't square with his many, many years in the government or how normal government business is conducted. I do not see those remarks as showing an interest in Plame's CIA status. It is a "when did we start doing things in this manner?" question.

kim

Even if great minds only ran in the same channels, it still remains that Fitz has misunderstood a confusing answer to a confused question, and has labeled it perjury. He can't prove it was perjury because it wasn't. The big case, gradually emerging from the mists, will render the little case moot.
========================================

jwest

Kim,

It sure would be fun to find an MSM “investigative reporter” to track these guys down now for a “reunion” of sorts, see what their story is and find out what country they were promised ambassadorships to during the campaign.

maryrose

But why would Libby deny seeing the article if he had?
It doesn't make sense. Is Fitz saying this that Libby lied about seeing the article? If he is this is the first I've heard of it.
Well it's his word against Libby's if he is and I don't think he has any concrete proof.

windansea

Ex-deputy secretary of state new figure in CIA leak probe


BY KENNETH R. BAZINET and JAMES GORDON MEEK
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU

WASHINGTON - Former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage has emerged as a key witness in the CIA leak probe, the Daily News has learned.
Armitage has been questioned several times, but is not expected to be indicted by the federal grand jury investigating who outed CIA spy Valerie Plame to journalists in 2003, sources said.

Armitage's testimony could hurt Vice President Cheney's indicted former chief aide Lewis (Scooter) Libby, or President Bush's political guru, Karl Rove.

Two sources familiar with the case said Armitage, Rove and Libby all had contacts with the press about Plame. Unlike Rove and Libby, Armitage appears to have tried to dissuade reporters from writing about her.

Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald recently had to sneak Armitage into a Washington courthouse to get past reporters - a sign of his value in the case, according to one source.

"Rich has been cooperating with Fitzgerald since day one," said another source, who has close ties to Armitage. "He was one of the first people to offer his testimony."

link

foloufon

reconnais les chandela bras chez bete?

jerry

Do we have Libby fingerprints?

Sara (Squiggler)

Two sources familiar with the case said Armitage, Rove and Libby all had contacts with the press about Plame. Unlike Rove and Libby, Armitage appears to have tried to dissuade reporters from writing about her.

More moving of the goal posts. When did the case become about who tried to dissuade reporters rather than who told reporters in the first place? Sheesh!

topsecretk9

"Rich has been cooperating with Fitzgerald since day one," said another source, who has close ties to Armitage. "He was one of the first people to offer his testimony."

but he forgot to tell him Woodward was pestering him for a year.

kim

jerry, on the candlestick, in the hallway; quick while they're quick.
=========================================

Sara (Squiggler)

Reporters already knew before they got to Libby and Rove. They either knew because Armitage told them or they knew because it was common knowledge around Washington and Armitage confirmed and then they came to Libby and Rove for their 2nd source confirmation. Even Novak says that his confirmation source was by calling the CIA and asking them.

verner

On Fitz's page 7:

"Defendant’s arguments make clear that he intends to use the documents he seeks for
impeachment, or to re-focus the jury’s attention to the conduct of others, rather than his own."

So Fitz puts in a news article that Cheney scribbled on, that Libby never saw, that Fitz has no proof that Libby ever saw, but complains about Libby showing what others in the SD, CIA etc. were doing at the same time--completely taking this case out of all context--except the "context" Fitz wants the jury to see.

WOW. That's legal? I can't believe the judge would let him get away with that junk.

windansea

no kidding squiggler...this whole Armitage pushback does not square with Woodward quotes saying that when he confronted his source after Libby indictment the source acted alarmed and said "I have to got testify"

perhaps the source (Armitage) was playing Woodward and had been testifying all along?

windansea

Woodward's quotes of his source never mentioned "don't write about this" either

Sara (Squiggler)

And, I don't remember the quote nor the reporter (perhaps Cooper) that Rove did try to dissuade. Didn't he say something to the effect of "don't go there" to one of them.

Whew! I'm tired. Sorry. Been up for over 48 hours.

topsecretk9

or wind...

it could be spin, for the off chance he is not indicted

kim

Behind the walls on the left lie, hands chained but wriggling, half a dozen scribes, and behind the walls on the right stand, gagged, a half a dozen brothers.
========================================

windansea

it could be spin, for the off chance he is not indicted

yep...unamed sources are probably his lawyers

windansea

And, I don't remember the quote nor the reporter (perhaps Cooper) that Rove did try to dissuade. Didn't he say something to the effect of "don't go there" to one of them.

I wouldn't get to far out on this

to Cooper

topsecretk9

Even if Rove escapes indictment, he could still be forced to resign for talking about Plame with a Time magazine reporter.

"People don't seem to want to talk about the possibility that Karl could be named an unindicted coconspirator," a third source close to the case said. "Can an unindicted coconspirator remain at the White House? Personally, I don't think so."

Sounds like the same sources as Leopold's...move the goal posts to unindicted coconspirator to get Rove

topsecretk9

---"Can an unindicted coconspirator remain at the White House? Personally, I don't think so."---

Who's syntax does this sound like? I have a hunch

windansea

looky...wind can do italics now ;)

now I will proceed to out "larwyn" larwyn:)

Patton

The lefties like Obsessed are just pinning for the old days when they killed far more poeple in Iraq then the war of liberation did.

Of course the left just enjoyed starving them to death, denying children medicine and letting Saddam run his many rape rooms, torture prisons and childrens prisons.

The Lamestream media went along by hiding the leftisty murderous ways in the guise of protecting us from WMD.

For every lefty that complains about Bush liberating Iraq and killing the GUILTY their is a mass grave full of innocence that died at the hands of the Clinton and the lefts policy.

JM Hanes

windansea

I see the Armitage pushback is in full swing. Maybe the Daily News thinks the http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001399.php>Clemmons story deserves wider circulation. Churning much?

windansea

I have a hunch

me too...you go first

Patton

Of course, given the lefts position on Terry Schiavo, they don't consider denial of food and water and slow starvation, like they did to the people of Iraq, to be torture...just their policy.

windansea

I see the Armitage pushback is in full swing. Maybe the Daily News thinks the Clemmons story deserves wider circulation. Churning much?

me thinks they doth protest too much

topsecretk9

Wind

starts with a J and ends with an e and vowel in the middle

kim

Welcome to the conspiracy,
It's such a sight to see.
Tomorrah, today will be so yesterdee,
But today, hurrah, I'm no indictee.
=======================

JM Hanes

So Clarice, where are we heading? I'm thinking something along http://www.aboardtheworld.com/> these lines has possibilities. We could all get out of Dodge fast, and then take our time checking out the options one lovely country at a time.

ghostcat

Somewhere around midnight, TM wondered aloud whether there might be bad blood between Bobby Ray Inman and Armitage. Or maybe he was citing Dan Drezner, who asked that same question yesterday.

Here's a clue: Armitage worked for Bob Dole. Bob Dole was instrumental in scuttling Bill Clinton's nomination of Inman to succeed Les Aspin as SecDef.

clarice

JMH--that suits me fine provided they have wifi..

Ranger

Well, Murtha was an unindicted coconspirator in ABSCAM, so I guess he should have resigned from his House seat years ago.

windansea

who is considered to be Pincus's "administration official" source?

kim

gc, who became SecofDef instead?
==================

clarice

Isn't it interesting that Inman said everyone in town knew and yet no msm reporter has reported that. If Inman was telling the truth, why no coverage until now?

Is it possible that Armitage is providing exculpatory material about Rove and Libby? (I gather not, because Libby is chomping at the bit to let his lawyers get at Armitage and Grossman).

topsecretk9

I guess Jason was also lying about revealing his sources too, right?

JM Hanes

Clarice

LOL! I can see it now, the whole JOM crew on adjacent verandahs, ordering room service from the the forward restaurant, so we don't have to interupt our online conversation....

topsecretk9

Well of course the DC press punks would extend discretion to Army that would never dream of extending to Rove or Libby.

I wonder why not one other reporter has followed up on the NYT's drop that Novak made a GJ appearance in December.

JM Hanes

"Can an unindicted coconspirator remain at the White House?"

You bet!

kim

I was sure you were on board already; your presence is so familiar, as though from a distance; perhaps the verandah was shaded?
==================================

windansea

Woodward’s dismissals mirror Novak’s description of the leak as “an offhand revelation,” prompting speculation that their sources might be one and the same. Both men have said independently that Fitzgerald’s investigation would ultimately find no evidence of a calculated leak by the Bush administration, which some reports have suggested was part of an effort to discredit Plame’s husband, Joseph Wilson, who incensed the White House by criticizing the intelligence that built the case for the war in Iraq.

Novak reportedly received confirmation of Plame’s position at the CIA from President Bush’s deputy chief of staff, Karl Rove, who remains under investigation in the case. But if Novak’s original source was not a White House employee, as Woodward suggested at the Harvard dinner, that could help dispute the theory that the leak was part of a broader conspiracy.

Responding to Bernstein’s claim that the release of Plame’s identity was a “calculated leak” by the Bush administration, Woodward said flatly, “I know a lot about this, and you’re wrong.”

topsecretk9

STILL MORE: Here is a filing by the Libby team in the civil suit involving the subpoenas to news organizations. It is a 43 page file intended to "supplement the record" with info on the subpoenas to Tim Russet, CNN, the WaPo, and Matt Cooper.

FYI, TM has an update

owl

Can an unindicted coconspirator remain at the White House?

Oh yeah. Not only stay at the WH but receive one of those brownie buttons, as far as I am concerned. Serious.

clarice

windansea, are you suggesting we are heading into another Cowles case?

I trust Woodward on this more than I trust Armitage..

Patton

Don't know if anyone else has thrown this out, but I noticed Mr. Cheney did NOT classified the OP-ED (Unless they managed to cut those parts off) once he wrote ''did wife send him on a junket''.

Now if this 'unclassfied' article stating Wilsons wife may have sent him on a CIA junket had made it into the hands of the press corp, wouldn't they have easily concluded that Wilsons wife was CIA and simply looked up her name.

Couldn't anyone in the office have seen this and taken the information to be unclassified??

Couldn't a reporter have seen it laying on the desk?

windansea

I'm not sure where my nose is leading me right now Clarice...but I am sure there is a prawn in the sofa :)

ghostcat

Kim -

Bill Perry succeeded Aspin.

ghostcat

Kim -

But only as SecDef, not as Judith Miller's paramour.

windansea

it seems that both UGO's sources say UGO gave the information about Plame in an offhand manner, but the same source also was quoted as pointing the finger at the WH and that they leaked it for revenge and to punish.

UGO mentioned the name Plame and identified her as CIA WMD analyst....classified info?

Rove "I heard that too"

kim

Why you little shrimpy scamp. I let you play in my cushions, and look what's become of us. What'll we tell your Mama?

Any idea why Dole opposed Bobby Ray? Or was is Armitage opposing him? If so, why? So many questions, so few facts.
===========================

topsecretk9

--but the same source also was quoted as pointing the finger at the WH and that they leaked it for revenge and to punish.--

Grossman

ghostcat

Inman outed Jonathan Pollard and curtailed CIA cooperation with Israel. There were certain repercussions.

windansea

It doesn't look to me like UGO tried to stop Novak from writing the story either as the "sources" in the NY Daily News story above suggest

topsecretk9

wind

no it doesn't. at all.

windansea

maybe, with all these unamed sources and UGOs we are hearing quotes from both Armitage and Grossman?

windansea

lets put another shrimp on the barbie..

clarice

Nor apparently did he ask Woodward to keep mum--he says he probably mentioned it to Libby, that he mentioned it to Pincus and then Bradley told Vanity Fair he'd heard it, too.

windansea

I have a great recipe for rotten sofa scampi with UGO sauce

kim

I believe Dole would have been President if Clinton hadn't sold a billion Chinese down the river for the money to pre-empt him.

So is there still bad blood about Inman for that? What do Hayden and Inman think of each other?
==========================================

windansea

A Washington Post reporter's confidential source has revealed his or her identity to the special prosecutor conducting the CIA leak inquiry, a development that provides investigators with a fact they have been pursuing in the nearly year-long probe.

Post reporter Walter Pincus, who had been subpoenaed to testify to a grand jury in the case, instead gave a deposition yesterday in which he recounted his conversation with the source, whom he has previously identified as an "administration official." Pincus said he did not name the source and agreed to be questioned only with the source's approval.

___ Intelligence News ___


• Nominations of Negroponte, Deputy Backed (Post, April 15, 2005 )

• Papers Say Leak Probe Is Over (Post, April 7, 2005 )

• Panel Seeks Intelligence Culpability (Post, April 2, 2005 )


• Full Coverage From The Post

___ The Intel Debate ___
• Commentary & Opinion
• Post Editorials


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"I understand that my source has already spoken to the special prosecutor about our conversation on July 12 [2003], and that the special prosecutor has dropped his demand that I reveal my source. Even so, I will not testify about his or her identity," Pincus said in a prepared statement.

"The source has not discharged us from the confidentiality pledge," said The Post's executive editor, Leonard Downie Jr.

kim

Make mine 'aged divan', please.
===================

clarice

Are you suggesting Heyden was Pincus' source?

clarice

Well--in any event that Pincus thingy should go into the selective nature of the investigation in the letter.

ghostcat

Inman is also close to Bush 41.

And Colin Powell, as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was at serious loggerheads with Les Aspin. As he left the Joint Chiefs job, he recommended Inman to Clinton as Aspin successor.

And, oh yeah, Inman has served as a source for several of Bob Woodward's books.

windansea

Are you suggesting Heyden was Pincus' source?

they all sound like the same source...

me hit da bell

Better name than 'Fair Game' is 'Aged Diva'.

kim

Powell likes Inman and has heard Armitage's confession?

If A and P and T, then? Why are Grossman and Wilson still alive?
=====================================

Lurker

And is there a connection between all of this and Iran-Contra?

kim

Well, of course, Lurker, and I can't wait for the left to make that leap.
==================================

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame