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May 20, 2006

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clarice

I added the Pincus stuff to my draft with this addition:

Subsequently, Bob Woodward says , he too, conveyed this information to Pincus which he’d received from his source.News reports say that Pincus has no recollection of that discussion. But because the Prosecution never questioned Pincus we do not have on the record confirmation of that. In any event, perhaps if he had been questioned about other sources, the Prosecution may have learned earlier about Woodward’s source.

kim

It could scarcely be scarily blogged.
=================

ghostcat

Inman didn't think the Plame "outing" was a big deal. He thinks the CIA house-cleaning undertaken by Porter Goss was long overdue. He has no sympathy for the CIA malcontents, including Larry Scheuer.

ghostcat

Michael Scheuer, doofus.

kim

How about his sympathy for foggy bottomed discontented?
=====================================

windansea

I guess if you deliver classified info in an offhand and gossipy manner everything is cool :)

So maybe Karl and Libby sneered when they said they'd heard that too...

I also remember many on the left saying just the mention of the Plame name and CIA occupation in the same sentence was enough to kill 1000's of NOCS and get you hung.

kim

The mere specter of The Scary One was enough to start you into that slip.
====================

windansea

seems like Fitz case is hanging on proof Libby & Rove were warned info was classified

kim

Remember, Larry's origins are contemporaneous with Iran-Contra, as are Val's.
=====================================

windansea

Pincus wrote last October that on July 12, 2003, "an administration official" told a Post reporter that Wilson, a critic of the Bush administration's foreign policy, was sent to Niger at the suggestion of his wife, a CIA analyst looking into weapons of mass destruction, to investigate alleged efforts by Iraq to purchase uranium. Pincus later publicly revealed that he was the Post reporter.

It can be a crime to reveal the identity of a covert CIA employee if the disclosure is intended to expose the employee, and if it is done by someone authorized to receive such information in the course of official duties. Pincus has said previously that he does not believe his source committed a crime.

same exact words Woodward got

ghostcat

Inman is not a Rummy fan. Goes back 30 years. Powell/Armitage often at odds with Rummy.

topsecretk9

--So maybe Karl and Libby sneered when they said they'd heard that too...--

Did Matt Cooper have magic see through the telephone glasses on?

How did Cooper get a War on Wilson from "don't get too far out" and "I herad that too"

but lenghty boondoggle talk was just a journalistic aide?

clarice

Ts-I am sure the TIme piece was in the typewriter before the call, and If Libby had coughed it would have been written up as an attack on Wilson.

kim

How about Karl and Bobby Ray relations?
========================

kim

Or Dick Cheney-Bobby Ray Inman yell ho Ro, sez.
==========================

Barney Frank

That Armitage baloney about him discouraging reporters from writing about Plame doesn't pass the laugh test.

Assuming he was the original disseminator (don't wanna get flamed calling it a leak), that seems a pretty odd way to stifle the publication of who she is.
"Hey Bob (Novak, Woodward, etal?)you don't know this but Joe Wilson's wife is a spook. Now that I've told you something you didn't know make sure you don't write about it." What tripe.

And another thing,
If Fitz is arguing that Cheney was all riled up over Plame and Libby was aware of this, how does it square with the motive he is trying to impute to Libby; ie, that he was worried that he had 'leaked' Plame and was concerned that his superiors would not approve. Seems a tad contradictory.

kim

The contradictions dissolve, BF, if you believe, like Fitz, that there was malice aforethought from Cheney and Libby. Too bad he's wrong; it makes his case hard to prove, as he is discovering.

Discovering. By the Defense whacking him with 2 X 4, so he can wake to the fact that his case is in a 1 X 2 X 6 coffin and it's someone's funeral
=======================================

scyther

Dude, probably a 2 X 6 X 12, 'cuz it will all add up to a gross, man.

Damocles

Fah, a coward's way out. He should spill his guts through his mouth first, then through the musculature.
=================================

Barney Frank

Kim,

If there was malice aforethought then how could Libby be concerned what Cheney would think if he found out he had spilled the Plame beans?
That's the motive Fitz is trying to assign to Libby.
Kind of hard to be engaged in a 'brutal Cheney-led conspiracy' to use Tom's phrase AND be afraid at the same time that your boss Cheney will be upset if you go out and do your Boy Scout best to forward said conspiracy.

topsecretk9

loving this cooment at protein wisdom:

“We Screwed Up” - actual admission of error, takes the wind out of critics’ sails.

Truthout, on the other hand, issued a “partial apology” for being “in front of the news cycle” (great, a new euphemism for reporting things that didn’t happen), and claimed to have paid “careful attention to the sourcing” (without noticing that the same source has reported this, what, something like 20 times in the past 9 months?).

Truthout seems to “get the truth out” in the same sense that ALL “gets the stains out.”

The “truth” is that since Rather and CBS were able to cover themselves sufficiently, a large barrier to mindless accusations has been removed from the MSM - we can expect more, TYVM.

Posted by Merovign | permalink
on 05/20 at 03:44 PM

owl

Reading through that 43pgs..pg 13, asking for info on conversations Russert/Libby June or July? Did they have more than the one? Also I noticed they did not call Lawerence O'Donnell name and he knee deep in MSNBC in July (IIRC).

PeterUK

The dog that did not bark in all this,is the most odd segregation of reporters,as if the breed were some kind of chronicler monks living in dank little cells away from normal human social interaction.
Don't these guys ever buy each other a drink,chat about this and that,especially this, over lunch,are they forbidden by their order to exchange telephone numbers or send emails? Do they not have acquaintances in common,have they no families,wives who pass each other whilst shopping? Have they no interst in sport?
Who on earth belongs to the Press Club?

verner

"Pincus has said previously that he does not believe his source committed a crime.

same exact words Woodward got.."

OF course Pincus would say that Kim, cause I bet he had known all along about Val.

Indeed, Pincus was so "limited" in what he would say in his deposition, I'm wondering if Val was ever one of his sources. Ditto Miller, Mitchell and Priest. Did Fitz ever ask them that?

Wilson is such a self-promoting hound dog, and she doesn't seem to mind the publicity--I mean posing for a VF pic in your PJs, now really. It would have been a good way to get "in" with the right people. And WMD was certainly a hot topic. Could she have been having a few little "background" discussions about what she heard around the office about those "crazy reports" with reporters friendly to her point of view?

Wonder if they polygraphed her before she left Langley? I sure hope so.


Patton

Shouldn't Cheney have already known by the time of the Wilson article that wifey sent him on a junket??

Cheney appears to be late to the conspiracy..

Shouldn't his note on the article have said:

'Now its time to burn this SOB with the wifes' nepotism.'

Hadn't Cheney already instructed Libby to burn the wife way back in June prior to the meeting with Miller??

Doesn't the idea of a grand conspiracy fall apart if Dick 'Darth Vader' Cheney is behind the power curve by like three weeks.

ghostcat

kim -

It's pretty clear that Inman has mixed feelings, at best, about Rummy and Cheney. This goes all the way back to when those two were sequential chiefs-of-staff for President Ford.

It's also pretty clear that Inman is seen by some "neo-cons" as a questionable friend of Israel. (Indeed, some of the anti-Israel types seem to view Inman as one of them.)

Third, Inman was quite critical of the George Tenet's acquiesence in the gutting of the CIA's HUMINTEL assets.

Don't know what that adds up to, but I would guess Inman would be sympathetic to Powell/Armitage in their skirmishes both with Cheney/Rumsfeld, on one front, and with the CIA, on another.

Steve

Okay, some of you peeps seem to assume that Libby never saw Cheney's annotated op-ed. Is there a reason for that, or is it really just an assumption?

Because if he DID see it, doesn't that cut out the legs from Libby's "learned about if from reporters" line?

And if he didn't see it, who do you think DID see it, and what did they do with it? IOW, did Cheney just make the annotations and file it away somewhere? Or do we think that Cheney handed that marked op-ed to 'somebody',and tasked them to find outthe answers...

Because Fitz has it. Isn't it likely that he asked Cheney about it? Isn't it possible that Cheney's testimony can put that op-ed into Libby's (or some other OVP minion's) hands at some point?

Patton

Clarice,

Any idea why Dick Cheney was questioning the involvement of the wife on July 6/7th
when he read the OP-ED, and the supposed plan to already out her back in June to Miller.

Appears Libby was a lone gunman with Miller in June not part of a conspiracy; which his boss had no idea was occuring.

owl

Think Val was so important to them that even Cheney forgot or, as if for the first time? He seems dumbfounded...or it's too unbelievable.

Beto Ochoa

On p. 22, CNN is subpoenaed regarding the July 8 sidewalk chat between Bob Novak and a mysterious? stranger that led to a phone call from Joe Wilson to Eason Jordan of CNN.
If that doesn't sum it up you're all blind.
JordanKhanPlameNukeBucks

kim

Of course, Steve, but what you don't see is that Libby's supposed perjury is a confusing answer to a confused question, misinterprested by a prosecutor cast adrift without an adequate investigation to bouy him up and presently grasping at straws. But he's discovering his straws are now waterlogged as well as weak.
=====================================

Patton

Steve says "Okay, some of you peeps seem to assume that Libby never saw Cheney's annotated op-ed. Is there a reason for that,""

Hey Steve..how's Blue??

Anyway, Libby testified he never saw it, both to the FBI and the GJ. Fitz hasn't provided any evidence Libby did see it and Fitz says he is not calling Cheney to testify at trial.

Therefore, no one will even authenticate those are Cheneys writings.

ghostcat

Kim -

You should also consider that Inman's recent blabbing to bloggers, et al, may well have been disinformation. (0.45 probability)

kim

Bring it all in, Steve, it's the Big Case. We'd love to show you around. Make yourself comfortable. You can check out any time you like.
=========================================

owl

Did Libby talk to Russert in June and July?

kim

Yeah, gc, or they can't source it 'cuz he can't source it. Guessing, like all of us. Maybe sticking in a little unconscious bias, like all of us.
===========================================

steve

Kim on this:
Of course, Steve, but what you don't see is that Libby's supposed perjury is a confusing answer to a confused question, misinterprested by a prosecutor cast adrift without an adequate investigation to bouy him up and presently grasping at straws. But he's discovering his straws are now waterlogged as well as weak.

Thanks, I know you guys think Fitzgerald is an idiot. You don't have to repeat it.

But seriously, if Libby didn't see the op-ed, what do y'all think Cheney did with it?
Seems to me from the way most buisnesses work, if 'the boss' has questions, peeps get him answers. Do we think that Cheney asked 'how often do ex-amb's do pro-bono work" and he DIDN'T get an answer?

kim

Oui, M. BO. Cherchez la femme et des argents. He should hang for selling his country for money.
======================

PeterUK

"On p. 22, CNN is subpoenaed regarding the July 8 sidewalk chat between Bob Novak and a mysterious? stranger that led to a phone call from Joe Wilson to Eason Jordan of CNN."

Why not the CIA who outed Plame as part of THEIR pushback.

"Right Agent Plame,you are going to have to take one for the Agency"

"I understand Sir..for the Agency"

"Don't forget the Agency motto Plame".

"Yes Sir,ACYA"

"That's the spirit Plame,Always cover your ass"."We have people on the outside who will take care of you".

"Yes Sir".

" One more thing before you go out there Plame".

"What Sir?"

"Do that little twirl for me one last time"

Together,"Geronimo!"

Beto Ochoa

Khan and Plame

kim

Maybe as often as they ask if Saddam were inquiring re yellow cake in Niger. And if he did ask, what happened to the big scenario to out Plame for being married to the rat, Joe?
======================================

verner

OK Steve, I have a question for you. Do you think Dick Cheney reads the NYT everyday?

I would guess that yes, he does, along with several other papers.

Does he often underline topics that he thinks are untrue, deformed truth or issues critical of the administration that need to be addressed by his team.

Again, the way the NYTs piece was rather carelessly scrawled upon by the VP, I would say yes. He likely does it everyday.

And really, what would you expect of the man. Wilson called him a liar, and we now know that he was not. Of course he took note of it.

So why is Fitz concentrating on this one article? Wouldn't it only be fair to show that in the same week that piece came out, Cheney scrawled on half a dozen pieces from several papers? Maybe Libby never saw it, or was so pre-occupied with other important issues of state that he forgot the 30 seconds he spent scanning it. Besides, there are lots of folks in the VP's office that Cheney could have passed it to.

I think you should pay more attention to Andrea Mitchell's comment that she tried to take back.

And IIRC, Libby talked to lots and lots of reporters in that time frame who he didn't mention Val to at all.

kim

I see BO, or she. Mebbe so.
=====================

Sara (Squiggler)

A quickie as I stop at my computer on the way to the BA and then back to bed ... what about Harlow? Where does he fit in? Didn't Novak talk to him as a confirming source? What else does he know?

kim

Steve, you are making the same mistake Fitz did, of believing that the underlinings and annotations show a man with malice aforethought for Plame. Instead, they register surprise, disgust, and suspicion. Read them. If you already have read them, do it again, but wash the yellow dust out of your jaundiced orbits, first.
======================================

Lurker

Oh, looks like Hadley is the second witness of the 5 listed by the Libby Team.

"Again, the way the NYTs piece was rather carelessly scrawled upon by the VP, I would say yes. He likely does it everyday."

As for these annotations, these may be questions for himself only as a "Thing to do" list. IOW, adding it to the list for delegation purposes but did Cheney ever say whom he delegated these questions to?

steve

Patton- Blue is fine, thanks for asking. I thought you were dead and buried in Germany..Good to see the reports of your death were greatly exxagerated.

And I saw that Libby says he didn't see it. This is the same libby who's currently under indictment for not being able to remember who told him what when, right?

Sure seems to be forgetful for a guy that maryrose keeps reminding me is 'too smart to lie'.

All I'm asking for at this point, give me a rational explanation of what happened to the op-ed once Cheney marked it up...

Beto Ochoa

Val looked around her office one last time.
"I'll be able to live in a high-rise condo and pen my memoirs." she mused. For a long moment she paused and breathed heavily. Tears began to stream down her cheek as she fought off the pain of betraying her unit. The reflection was broken when Joe appeared abrupty in the doorway and tapped his knuckles noisily on the lentil.

kim

And particularly, if Libby had some faint hint from Cheney about Val, then his moment with Russert might well be a deja vu, heard as if for the first time. Clearly the 'as if' alone is subjunctive; Fitz pursues will o' the whispers.

Remember, too, by this time Rove is speaking of traps. I'd be struck in wonderment, too, at the plot unfolding around me.

Poor Fitz, poor Steve.
==========================

Lurker

From AJstrata's post:

"The defendant has identified as potential defense witnesses Richard Armitage, Stephen Hadley, Bill Harlow, Colin Powell, Karl Rove, Joseph Wilson and Valerie Wilson and seeks documents from “the files of these witnesses – and others – that relate to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s trip to Niger” on the ground that they may aid in preparing to examine these witnesses."

7 witnesses listed.

Patton

"""All I'm asking for at this point, give me a rational explanation of what happened to the op-ed once Cheney marked it up""

Steve,
Wrong Patton but thanks for thinking...
anyway..that's what use to be great about being a defendant, you are innocent until PROVEN guilty.

But if you think Fitz's trial strategy is..Libbys a liar therefore he lied, I'd like to seem hhim get it past the courts.

In fact, when it comes to facts, Fitz has been the one lacking.

But I would guess your 'rationale expplanation' about what happened to the op-ed would have to include that Libby saw it, rushed into his time machine, went back to June and told Miller.

You and Leopold can keep looking for the time machine until the chickens come home.

PeterUK

"Joe! She said breathlessly,startled by his sudden appearance,"You look,different,have you been colouring your hair...you have lost weight,was it the malaria again?"

kim

Well, Steve, possession is nine points of the law, but if you ask the present possessor of those little annotations, and even if you gave him the extra point as a gimmee, he wouldn't be able to answer your question about the op-ed's provenance. He hasn't a clue, and neither do you.
===============================

steve

I'm sure he's got peeps inhis office that clip important articles out to make sure he sees them. And I'll give you that his scrawlings are probably a to-do list of sorts. But if they are, isn't it likely that Libby, as COS would have been in a position to see those scrawlings? Or that somebody in the OVP was tasked to answer those questions?

And Kim, I'm not saying that it shows Cheney with malice towward Plame/Wilson. Not saying this puts them in IIPA territory- if Cheney knew from Tenet (for example) that she worked for the agency, he wouldn't have nedessarily known she was (supossedly) NOC. But if Cheney asked teh questions (Junket?), doesn't that indicate that there was some interest in the OVP on her and the trip?

kim

Lurker, where's Grossman in that list of witnesses? Oh wait, he'll be a prosecution witness. Yeah, that's it, that's the tikket.
===========================

Patton

For all we know Cheney took the article with his notes on it into a meeting with Tenent and never showed anyone on his staff.

He threw it at George and said WTF.....

verner

"All I'm asking for at this point, give me a rational explanation of what happened to the op-ed once Cheney marked it up..."

We gave you two Steve, you just weren't paying attention.

And as for Libby forgetting, you try doing his job. I would guess he had hundreds of pieces of paper, e-mails, phone conversations, meetings etc. passing through his office everyday. The idea that Libby was preoccupied with the Wilsons is something invented by Fitz,(and bought into by willing haters of the Administration that want to make this whole mess an indictment of the war) that frankly has not been proven. On the contrary.

And if the whole truth comes out in court--something Fitz is fighting very hard to avoid--we will see what garbage this has been all along.

kim

Wouldn't you be interested if you'd just been called a liar six ways from Sunday on the pages of the New York Times? You asked for rationality; how about extending a little?
=========================

PeterUK

"But if Cheney asked teh questions (Junket?), doesn't that indicate that there was some interest in the OVP on her and the trip?"

More likely exasperated contempt,a war might just trump the matter of employee's perks.Cheney is the VP not a clerk in acounting.

Beto Ochoa

"The defendant has identified as potential defense witnesses Richard Armitage, Stephen Hadley, Bill Harlow, Colin Powell, Karl Rove, Joseph Wilson and Valerie Wilson

The Wilsons make up less than a third of the interests and all of the intrigue.

windansea

s take another look at the timeline of leaks that led to Val's outing and who are the probable sources:

May 6, 2003: "Missing in Action: Truth", The New York Times, Nicholas Kristof: This column was the first to reveal the Feb. 2002 Niger trip; it doesn't mention Wilson, but we later learn (WaPo, Oct 12, 2003) he was a source. (See also Vanity Fair, Jan 17, 2004)

ok Wilson is a source here..anyone else?

June 12, 2003: "CIA Did Not Share Doubt on Iraq Data", The Washington Post, Walter Pincus (or WaPo link): The Washington Post elaborates on Kristof's column, describes what happened with the CIA report; Wilson was also a source on this piece, which will get mentioned in the Senate Intelligence report.

Wilson again...

June 13, 2003: "White House in Denial", Nick Kristof
Condoleezza Rice was asked on "Meet the Press" on Sunday about a column of mine from May 6 regarding President Bush's reliance on forged documents to claim that Iraq had sought uranium in Africa. That was not just a case of hyping intelligence, but of asserting something that had already been flatly discredited by an envoy investigating at the behest of the office of Vice President Dick Cheney.

Joe gets around...anyone else?

July 6, 2003: Enough prequel! The article that started it all: Ambassador Wilson, "What I Didn't Find in Africa".

Joe get's out of the closet

July 6, 2003: Joe Wilson also speaks (again) to Walter Pincus of the Washington Post in "Ex-Envoy: Nuclear Report Ignored".

Joe Joe...


July 14: Robert Novak "outs" Ms. Wilson, aka Valerie Plame, in "Mission to Niger". The fateful sentences, with emphasis added for sources. Note the absence of a specific source in the first sentence:

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.

UGO & Rove (it appears UGO supplied the name and CIA affiliation)

July 17/22: TIME magazine, "The War On Wilson", since revised, dated July 17, 2003. I noticed the revision on July 22.

...some government officials have noted to TIME in interviews, (as well as to syndicated columnist Robert Novak) that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. These officials have suggested that she was involved in her husband's being dispatched Niger to investigate...

Notes: First, the parenthetical information that TIME's sources also talked to Novak was added in a revision. Secondly, TIME seems to distinguish, in the rest of the story, between "Administration officials", and "government officials". I mention this, because Professor Krugman will, eventually, misrepresent the TIME reporting in his own column. And, David Corn will (July 23) write a follow-up arguing (pretending?) that TIME's "government" equals Novak's "senior administration". TIME may tell. And TIME may be on my side!

Libby & Rove...and ?

Let's flesh this out in regards to the Armitage push back and timeline of his testimony to Fitz

PeterUK

"Wilson again...

June 13, 2003: "White House in Denial", Nick Kristof
Condoleezza Rice was asked on "Meet the Press" on Sunday about a column of mine from May 6 regarding President Bush's reliance on forged documents to claim that Iraq had sought uranium in Africa."

The forged documents purport that Uranium was sought in Niger.Wlson changed this to agree with the sixteen words.

verner

windandsea,

You forgot David Corn's piece in the nation. The first to mention "Valerie Plame" and "Covert" in print. The source for that was also Wilson.

Also, wasn't there some discussion as to whether Val was a source for the May 6, 2003: "Missing in Action: Truth", The New York Times, Nicholas Kristof piece? She was there for the debriefing, which happened at Wilson's home--but..um left the room (yeah right.)

kim

Ah, w&s, you note that Novak's first sentence, 'outing' Plame, isn't even sourced. How clever of you.
===============================

Beto Ochoa

Joe's grin widened as Val tusseled with her firm bodice.
Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report...
It's late on saturday...what is it that's wrong about the Italian forgeries and Joe's supposed knowledge of them at that time? Just Askin...?

Lurker

"But if they are, isn't it likely that Libby, as COS would have been in a position to see those scrawlings?"

Yes and no. My manager doesn't reveal everything to me. Besides, Libby already told GJ that he had never seen it until the FBI showed it to him.

Sara (Squiggler)

Come on guys, need to get some more sleep. What about Harlow?

Steve: The notations indicate incredulity on Cheney's part. A question like WTF, since when did the government start asking civilians to go on pro bono trips? Is this the way things are done nowdays? Could have been a rhetorical question for all we know.

All we know for sure is that Libby testified under oath twice that the first time he saw the newspaper article with the notations on it was when the FBI showed it to him.

Chances are the article was part of the morning clip service that the WH uses. It was probably in a file with all the other clippings from that day's papers. Make the notations, ask the maybe rhetorical questions, close the cover of the file and toss it aside to do the next thing. Maybe it was picked up by someone to file or to follow up on, or maybe it sat in an in basket and got buried at the bottom of a "to do" but not priority pile. We have a pretty good idea that Cheney wasn't focusing on Plame's CIA status. He was surprised to read that some civilian was making a pro bono 8 day trip halfway around the world. He thought this weird, as do I. That's my take on this. Probably showed up again when the subpoenas went out for all things Plame/Wilson. I don't know what Cheney's office looks like, but if it is anything like my former Congresswoman boss's office, there were stacks and stacks of paper work, newspapers, stuff everwhere. We could barely move around. You are expected to keep every single scrap but they give you offices big enough to barely turn around. I laugh every time I see some movie depicting a government working office that looks like the drawing room of a country manner. There is so little room, sometimes 3 people working in shifts share a single desk. Not that I think someone shares the VP's desk, but his staff is a whole 'nother story.

windansea

Ah, w&s, you note that Novak's first sentence, 'outing' Plame, isn't even sourced. How clever of you.

that was TM...I lifted those cites out of the timeline here

Lurker

""But if Cheney asked teh questions (Junket?), doesn't that indicate that there was some interest in the OVP on her and the trip?"

Yes and no. He was wondering if it was the norm for CIA to do these things and if so, was it Plame that sent Wilson to Niger.

This also means that Cheney was not the one that sent Wilson to Niger.

windansea

what is it that's wrong about the Italian forgeries and Joe's supposed knowledge of them at that time? Just Askin...?

literary flair, forgot his glasses...

kim

Nor is it certain that Novak meant the administration officials referred to the 'Italian Report'. By that time he could just be meshing Joe's disinformation with what he did get from the 'administration'. Note, also, that he doesn't specify what the word 'administration' means. To me, that covers a multitude of sinners.

Thanks, ts, I wondered where I'd gotten that idea, about Novak not precisely sourcing the 'administration' for his description of Val's job.
=====================================

Sara (Squiggler)

Harlow?????

Harlow????

Harlow????


windansea

You forgot David Corn's piece in the nation. The first to mention "Valerie Plame" and "Covert" in print. The source for that was also Wilson.

according to some (mostly lefties) all that's required is Plame and CIA in the same sentence...this may turn out to be a Kerry style nuanced position

kim

That 'literary flair' may be a 'bit of Larry's dare'.
==============================

PeterUK

Lurker,
His thoughts were,"What are these prats doing arsing around at a time like this?"

On thing is sure,outing is not a punishment,if they had wanted to punish Plame they would have parachuted her into downtown Tehran wearing a bikini.What is wrong with all these wrist slapping liberals?

kim

Tender is the night.
=============

KIM

Tryin' ta ketch me ridin' posse.
===================

maryrose

steve:
the difference between you and me is I believe Libby and you don't just like Fitz. And to you and Fitz I say Prove it. Prove Libby knew about Cheney's notes on the op-ed and then did something about it. Oh..can't prove it? well that's a horse of a different color then.

verner

Steve,

First I would like to say a little word about Val's department at the CIA. Of an agency known for getting every major intelligence issue wrong in the last 20 plus years, Val's WMD department had a particularly abysmal record. They completely missed the A.Q. Kahn network, and completely underestimated Libya's nuclear program. I've also read that Saddam had scientists in Libya--but that's beside the point.

To believe that Val was NOC, you have to believe the following:

1) Tenet knew, but didn't tell the VP. (unbelievable)
2) Tenet didn't know (unbelievable)
3)When Novak called CIA to verify what he had heard, they did not follow normal procedure for NOC employees (also unbelievable.)

I could go on, but would remind you that even Mel Goodman and the other VIPS are backing off that angle. Shuster was trying to re-triangulate a few weeks ago by saying she was vital to the Iran WMD group, but notice that disappeared into thin air as well.

Face it, if she was, Fitz, the bulldog, would indict--but he has not. He doesn't even want to go there for obvious reasons.

The only source that Val was "covert" or NOC was Joe Wilson or one of his cronies. Another one of his lies.

kim

I bet on the gray mare.
I bet on the bay.
If I'd bet on the bald one,
I'd be a free man, today.

The betting was heavy.
All punters were sure.
But a dancin' and a prancin',
Came noble Rove, pure.
============================

maryrose

verner:
You seem to have a very good handle on this case Your explanations are clear and thought-provoking.

Patton

"""Ah, w&s, you note that Novak's first sentence, 'outing' Plame, isn't even sourced. """

Which is very interesting...don't reporters normally not use sourcing when it came from a government spokesmen??

Lurker

Hey, verner,

since you mentioned Wilson's home...

can you answer Seixon's question?

"

If only I had the time... My archives are there for anyone who wants to rummage... Most of the relevant stuff should be in the Plame Game archive... And yes, my memory is razor sharp when it comes to these things.

However, I'm not familiar with this May 2, 2003 meeting someone is talking about. Did Wilson and the VIPS show up there? If that is the case... then Ray McGovern's claim that he met Wilson for the first time at the EPIC conference in mid-June got a bit less credible... Can anyone dig that up and see if he was there with Wilson on May 2?"

PeterUK

The WMD acronym bandied about so casually by journalists,very few of whom can change a light bulb,indicate the dismal depths of ignorance in those who pontificate on all things.
WMD or NBC,nuclear,biological and chemical weapons are such a huge and diverse area of knowledge that,it is doubtful anyone is expert in more than one.
Plame did not have a degree in Physics,biochrmistry,chemistry or even general engineering,not even a passing knowledge of rocketry,munitions,nuclear enrichment or any of the myriad sub specialisations in these fields.
Valerie Plame
Education

Plame is a 1985 graduate of the Pennsylvania State University, the London School of Economics and Political Science, UK, and the College of Europe, an international-relations school in Bruges, in 1995. Soon after graduation, she started working for the U.S. government in Washington D.C. During her time at Penn State, she had worked on the business side of PSU's student newspaper, The Daily Collegian. According to an October 9, 2003 Collegian article, she previously attended Lower Moreland High School in Huntingdon Valley, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. [3]

..but I bet she knows how to get a story out.

kim

Peter, I'm telling you, she is covert, and her specialty is regime change. Look where she trained, the capital of Regime Change Europe.
======================================

PeterUK

Kim,
If she attended the LSE,it is more likely she was whacked out most of the time,where do you think Mick Jagger studied?
The main question is what was she doing in the CPD,editing NoNukes Magazine?

topsecretk9

this is getting sick and demented --Salon on TruthNOT

...So why apologize for the story? Leopold's story quoted "sources close to the case" who predicted an indictment announcement last week, and Ash told us this morning that Truthout "hoped and felt strongly" that Fitzgerald would announce Rove's indictment on Friday. That it didn't happen was a cause for concern, Ash said.

In addition, Ash said that he's uncertain about some of the events leading up to and following the meeting that supposedly happened last Friday at Patton Boggs. Ash said he isn't sure now when the grand jury voted to indict Rove, although he said he remains confident that it did so before last Friday. He said that he isn't sure what's going on now to warrant keeping the alleged indictment under wraps, although he suggested that it must mean that Rove's team is cooperating with Fitzgerald somehow.

Finally, Ash said that "there are people whose life was made inconvenient by our story," and that "not all of them are Karl Rove or people beholden to Karl Rove." Who are they? "I can't tell you any more than that," Ash said. Is one of them Leopold? "You're making my life complicated now," Ash said.

Of course, good stories often inconvenience people and complicate lives, and they seldom contain every last fact about the steps that led up to or might follow the developments they report. If that's all that's "wrong" about Leopold's reporting, there's no need for Truthout to apologize for anything.

So, once again, why the "partial apology" now?

Ash said that Truthout needs to "cool down the reactor a little bit" as it tries to learn more about the "cycle" on which Fitzgerald's legal team is working. "We're not in a position to continue on without an official confirmation," he said. "Unless we get some official confirmation, we're going to look stupider and stupider."

Those were his words, not ours.

kim

Poor emptywheel. She thinks Novak received a classified leak about the Italian forgeries from someone. She doesn't even realize that junk is from Joe, his literary flair.
======================

kim

Peter, what does it LOOK like she did? Tender is the Night.
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PeterUK

"Ash told us this morning that Truthout "hoped and felt strongly" that Fitzgerald would announce Rove's indictment on Friday."

This crew also "hope and feel strongly" that a socialist utopia will work the next time round.

topsecretk9

Anyways Wind...TalkLeft is doing a "workup" on Madsen...keep hope alive! Leopold's story is like the olympic torch.

maryrose

Spending a lot of time in Europe tends to make you think like the Europeans do which is against America and critical of our form of government. Joe and Val fit this category which is why their priorities are all screwed up. For Val to continue to collect a paycheck paid for with our taxpayer dollars and behave as the victim here really fries me. She knows the whole truth yet remains silent hoping this will play out the way she wants it to. She already has the book deal-who will play her in the movie version-Charlise Theron?

kim

Wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and dreamin' he'd be lyin'.
====================================

PeterUK

"Ash told us this morning that Truthout "hoped and felt strongly" that Fitzgerald would announce Rove's indictment on Friday."

This crew also "hope and feel strongly" that a socialist utopia will work the next time round.

PeterUK

"Ash told us this morning that Truthout "hoped and felt strongly" that Fitzgerald would announce Rove's indictment on Friday."

This crew also "hope and feel strongly" that a socialist utopia will work the next time round.

PeterUK

Disappeared!? I told you it was the CIA!

verner

Lurker,

I am not clear on exactly when Wilson affiliated with Iraq Policy Information Project. The org was started in September of 2002. Unfortunately, they have taken down the website (how convenient!). And I doubt Joe would tell us. My suspicion is that he became involved through a) contacts (through Val) in the CIA who knew various members of the VIPS, b) through Chas Freeman and/or Amb. Peck--who served in the Middle East and, in Freeman's case, Africa at the same time Joe did (they were hanging out at the same Middle East think tanks etc. as well per google , so I'm supposing their paths often crossed)c) members of the Kerry Campaign who he knew through the Clinton NSC, or some combination of all of the above.

I have never made a timeline for Wilson from 2001 onward, but I think it would be a very good thing to do. If I'm not mistaken, I've read that an article in the San Jose Mercury was his first public statement on Iraq --but a Lexis Nexus search of his media appearances beginning in 2001 would be a real good idea. You can get some idea of his comings and goings from his ghost written biography (and I can't find my copy right now!) but he seems to leave a lot out.

Remember though, he was really of little value until after the war in Iraq began in March 2003. That's when he could go around saying that "Bush lied us into war."

I can't remember whether or not he appeared before EPIC off the top of my head, but I would not doubt it. Considering the scrubbing that has been done, you may or may not find evidence of it.

verner

Lurker, Here's Joe's article:

How Saddam Thinks

Published Oct. 13, 2002 in the San Jose Mercury News

My guess is, this article was brought to the San Jose Mercury by IPIP--indicating that Wilson was in on it(IPIP) from the beginning.

Like the IPIP, he was acknowledging that Saddam had WMDs, but was for sanctions, and against military involvement.

clarice

I "hope and feel strongly" that Truthout keeps this up because the addies of those who still believe them will be worth a fortune to telemarketers and scam artists world wide.

PeterUK

Interesting Idea,Plame recommended, Mary McCarthy sent Joeseph Wilson

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Wilson/Plame