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May 02, 2006

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topsecretk9

--Why wouldn't Wilson just call Novak and say, "I hear you're chatting about some stuff you shouldn't be chatting about, doesn't matter where I heard, what's your problem?--

They is no crime in a reporter calling around, and had Wilson just called to say Novak had no right to preform his job then you can bet that --- complaining--- would have factored into Novaks' article. And Wilson is not that dumb.

topsecretk9

Sue

I was just gonna say...rats, you got banned - again.

Cecil Turner

Why wouldn't Wilson just call Novak and say, "I hear you're chatting about some stuff you shouldn't be chatting about, doesn't matter where I heard, what's your problem?"

Why wouldn't Novak respond: "and that's different from what you're doing how, exactly?"

topsecretk9

Besides which Jeff

I wouldn't be surprised if Novak had expressed the view he expressed on the street to any number of colleagues and contact BEFORE the chance meeting.

brenda taylor

the only thing elaborate about this is how far the chuck schuemer,dicky gulag durbin and a few others were willing to take this,they planned it with joe wilson and john kerry right before the election.this was bigger then joe the liar wilson.

Syl

Well, isn't there a possibility that the stranger, friend of Wilson, could also be a reporter?

Snooping around trying to ferret out info from anyone who might have some, ie, another reporter? But a reporter who knows and is friendly with Wilson. Novak's hostile response re Wilson is an uh-oh moment: Somebody's out to get Wilson. I'd better let him know?

Sue

Top,

This is the first time he has actually banned me. The other times he just threatened. ::grin:: And I was just starting to get wink to warm up to me and actually debate.

If Larry peeks in here...you are a chicken shit.

Okay, have we figured out if Wilson called Novak first or Novak called Wilson first?

Syl

Cooper? Nah, too new.

Pincus? Kristoff?

Wilson characterized him as a friend. Wilson and his ego would do that, n'est pas? 'Big name journalists are friends of mine. See how important I am'.

Tom Maguire

From Boris:

I half seriously suggested that Libby intentionally drew the flag by bafflegabbing his way into being the focus of the investigation in order to protect the administration. This appears to be your working theory now.

Fine, you're welcome to it.

Well, since I help launch that theory, let me throw another log on the fire.

In reviewing the Tatel redactions and the Fitzgerald affidavit, I was reminded of another odd detail from the affidavit:

Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [redacted] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [redacted] and Cooper.

Keep in mind that this affidavit was from Aug 2004, prior to Miller's testimony. And Pincus gave his deposition on Sept 15, 2004, so scratch him, too.

So, folks wondered at the time, what reporters had testified and who might have contradicted Libby?

The candidates were Novak, Kessler, and, I suppose, a reporter whose name has been kept out this.

But suppose it is Novak - might it be that the discrepancy was that, as with Cooper, Libby claimed to be a source for Novak? It is pretty clear now that Novak's sources were Rove (as a second source) and UGO, who can't be Libby.

IF that is what happened, then we have a situation where Libby claimed, in opposition to their accounts, to be the source for Novak and Cooper. And we have Rove forgetting to tell the FBI about both Novak and Cooper, and forgetting to tell the GJ about Cooper (until Oct 2004).

*IF* that actually happened, would Fitzgerald's interest in Rove and Libby be more explicable?

Well. There is no indictment for the discrepancy, so maybe it is on some lesser point and seemingly immaterial. Or maybe he says that he and Kessler discussed the Wilson trip, but not Plame; this is what Kessler told the CJR:

Glenn Kessler of The Washington Post notes that while he did agree to talk to Patrick Fitzgerald, as this article says, he wants to make clear that the scope of the questioning was very limited. Kessler says he did not divulge what two conversations he had with I. Lewis Libby in July 2003 were about, but merely affirmed that the subjects of Valerie Plame, Joseph Wilson, and Wilson's trip to Niger had not come up.

We can find Jeff backing Kessler here (and it is a plausible guess), but does anything rule out Novak?

topsecretk9

Sue

I just informed all of the commenters responding to you that you can't respond because Larry has banned you.

Wilson called Novak, but they played phone tag a bit --Wilson also called Novak's "titular" boss, Eason Jordan to complain about Novak.

Sue

Tom,

Why wouldn't he have indicted on that if indeed he claimed he told Novak and he didn't?

topsecretk9

Wilson characterized him as a friend. Wilson and his ego would do that, n'est pas? 'Big name journalists are friends of mine. See how important I am'.

Larry or Chris Matthews.

Sue

Wouldn't Novak know who the friend was by now? Especially if it was a known reporter, etc.? Has Novak even claimed he doesn't know the 'friend'?

clarice

We know that Andrea Mitchell says she spoke to Libby and the FBI.

brenda taylor

what about david corn do they still consider hinm a reporter,you know he thinks val is a noc.

topsecretk9

--Has Novak even claimed he doesn't know the 'friend'?--

No, I don't think he disputes it, but he hasn't said who it is. But then, No Journo has asked either.

clarice

We know that the NYT says it has documentation of conversations between its reporters and Libby and his subordinates..though they say no Plame in those notes.

Syl

Tom

*IF* that actually happened, would Fitzgerald's interest in Rove and Libby be more explicable?

Yes, it would.

No Libby indictment on that score, though. Or could fitz be holding that back for possible conspiracy charges?

But as far as either Kessler or unnamed, it would not be enough to sent a reporter to jail for because the only reporter who went to print was Novak.

Libby could have leaked classified information (Mrs. Wilson is CIA), but at that point in time Fitz had no evidence Libby knew it was classified, we do not have an Official Secrets Act so someone revealing confidential stuff to a reporter who didn't go to print is 'wrong' but not criminal.

The only way Fitz could justify continuing the investigation by holding journalists in contempt of court was if he had a connection between Libby and Novak.

Otherwise Fitz should have said: 'Libby leaked. He should feel damn lucky nobody went to print with it!' and drop it.

topsecretk9

Read them and how do they sound

Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [Novak] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [Novak] and Cooper.

Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [Mitchell] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [Mitchell] and Cooper.

Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [Corn] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [Corn] and Cooper.


Calling MJW, Calling MJW --- spacing?

Syl

Top

Chris Matthews

Bingo!

Tom Maguire

"...that Joseph Wilson and the former Valerie Plame, etc --- wedding announcement that appeared in the NYT..."

Is this true? Anyone have a link?

The NY Times has a search function, but I am not finding a wedding announcement.

Sue

Top,

It isn't Corn. If it was Corn, he would have already spilled the beans. Wouldn't he?

Squiggler

I don't think the friendly could be a reporter or Novak would certainly know who he/she was. Although the words "Wilson's an A$$hole" sounds like something one reporter might say to another. I can't see a reporter in Novak's class calling a former Ambassador an a$$hole to a government type or even to a woman, but he might to another reporter or to someone he considered a low life. Novak is not part of the MTV generation.

Cecil Turner

We can find Jeff backing Kessler here (and it is a plausible guess), but does anything rule out Novak?

Try this in Word, 12 point Times New Roman, 1" margins:

wife. Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters – Glenn Kessler of the Washington Post, and Matt Cooper of Time magazine – that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of Kessler and Cooper.
I think it works too well to be coincidence.

Sue

Syl,

It could also explain why he told the judge he needed Miller's (and Cooper's) testimony, to see if he indicated he knew she was covert to either of them.

Squiggler

Just checking ... when you are plugging Novak's name in to anything, are you using Robert Novak, Chicago Sun Times or CNN? And does it make any difference?

PS: I'm so impressed that you guys figured out how to do this in the first place.

Syl

Sue

to see if he indicated he knew she was covert to either of them.

True.

Yep. :(

Squiggler

When you google Novak, he seems to always come up as Chicago Sun Times Syndicated Columnist

Syl

Cecil

I think it [Kessler] works too well to be coincidence.

Which puts it back to where we were...unless there's an unknown (to us) convo between Kessler and Rove of which not a hint of a whisper of a trace of leaked knowledge of such exists.

And even if fitz is fishing for Libby's knowledge that Mrs. Wilson was classified, it has to tie to Novak to become criminal.

Otherwise gossip and background material going back and forther between government and journalists will come to a screeching halt.

Does the press yet realize what Fitz hath wrought on them?

Sue

Who are the 6 reporters in the 1x2x6?

Cecil Turner

when you are plugging Novak's name in to anything, are you using Robert Novak, Chicago Sun Times or CNN? And does it make any difference?

No. "Times" is clearly too long to fit in the spot where "Post" works. CNN doesn't work either. (BTW, I lost some formatting when pasting: italicize the names of papers, ensure dashes with spaces at each end, and the spacing works better if you take out the comma after "Washington Post")

Who are the 6 reporters in the 1x2x6?

Some fantasy of Grossman's. Best bet: it never happened.

brenda taylor

as far as im concerned the press is going to reep what they have sown.just not soon enough for me ,but im going to love watching it.

clarice

The fun thing is that they know it's coming and blame Bush for it.

Squiggler

From Google search:

Wilson and Plame were married in 1998. Here is a snip from an entry in the 2002 WHO’S WHO IN AMERICA for Wilson: “m. Valerie Elise Plame, April 3, 1998.”

So in 2002, anyone who wanted to read WHO’S WHO would have known that Valerie Plame was married to Wilson. That, of course, is long before Plame’s outing in the press.

It was no secret, at least as far back as 2002, that a woman named Valerie Plame was married to Ambassador Joe Wilson. In 2002, it was presumably still a secret that Plame worked for the CIA.

Plame was called back from her CIA work overseas in 1997 or 1998. She got married to Wilson in 1998.

Although their wedding was not a cover story in the tabloids, anyone involved with intelligence work in any nation in the world would have sat up and taken notice:

clarice

ts has all the exhibits from the last filing. I believe the NYT story on the Wilson/Plame nuptials is one of them.

Squiggler

Oh, and by the by, Wilson had 2 previous wives before Val. Anyone know where they might be or what kinds of jobs they might hold?

topsecretk9

--The NY Times has a search function, but I am not finding a wedding announcement.---

I tried too and nada...could they be respecting everyones privacy *now*?

But that raises a good question, ISN"T THIS PUBLIC INFORMATION ANYWAYS - Information the Wilson's wanted public -- so I am sorry but even if Libby wanted it, the TImes can't argue PUBLIC printed material is privileged.

That is just dumb. They could say the same about an old article written about WIlson -- which is dumb too.

Besides, if media reports is the way Fitz's ghost supervisor keeps tabs on him, then media reports are not privileged

topsecretk9

--I believe the NYT story on the Wilson/Plame nuptials is one of them.--

Really? I'll check...didn't notice.

Sue

Top,

I'm trying to figure out why a wedding announcement in 1998 would be relevant. Unless they want to see what job description or something she used. Otherwise, I'm not seeing what the big deal about that would be. They would be able to obtain it from the library, if it is like our local newspaper. Anyway, I'm babbling. See you guys tomorrow.

clarice

Well, ts.. I was so overtired when I skimmed that stuff, I might be mistaken.
Squiggler, there's a bot of stuff about Wilson's second wife here..She's a lobbyist for Gabon. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1256475

topsecretk9

--'Im trying to figure out why a wedding announcement in 1998 would be relevant.--


It's not...
NYT's tried some "chilling! Overboard" argument, in which the said the subpoena was so broad it covered even the Wilson engagement and wedding notices...Libby's team -- not missing a chance to highlight 1- the idiocy that they would have announced to the world their *secret* marriage, to *former* Valerie Plame and 2- reminded the NYT's and Walton the Wilson's were married in 1998 and since their subpoena was for materials starting Jan. 2003, the wedding announcement need not be produced


AKA- Dummies.

Squiggler

Well here is more than you would ever want to know about good ol' Val:

From the St. Petersburg, Fl Times:

SOME THINGS YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT VALERIE PLAME WILSON, SPY:

She was born in 1963 in Anchorage, Alaska, where her father, an Air Force lieutenant colonel, was stationed.

As a girl, she loved puzzles and dolls.

At Lower Moreland High School outside Philadelphia, she ran track.

She was the leader of a group of preppie, high-achieving friends.

The first few years of her life, she lived on or around military bases.

She told her parents she wanted to serve her country.

She was fiercely competitive at games like Sorry! and Monopoly, and sometimes (but not usually) cried when she lost.

She idolized her brother, Robert, a Marine 16 years her senior, and once tried to set him up with her grade school teacher.

When her yellow parakeet refused to come down from a tree, she was in tears until Robert whistled it down.

She loved it when he tickled her, even though she cried, "No! No!"

Her dad, Samuel, worked in the National Security Agency.

Her mom, Diane, still keeps a framed painting of a horse Valerie made as a girl.

As a fifth-grader, despite a so-so singing voice, she made her mom beam by belting out Daisy, Daisy to audition for a high school production of The Sound of Music.

She got the part.

Her parents kept a spic-and-span house.

They gave her a strict curfew, always knew where she was and carefully monitored her TV habits.

She wouldn't necessarily volunteer information that got her in trouble, but if they asked her a question, she told the truth.

She loved The Waltons.

Her favorite book was Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little House on the Prairie.

She had a canopy bed, but no rock 'n' roll stars on her bedroom wall.

Her mom, a former teacher, never wanted to know Valerie's IQ and was satisfied to know she scored above 130 and "was smart enough to be and do anything she wanted."

She traveled a lot in Europe with her family.

In her teens, she worked as a waitress in various places, including a stint at a dude ranch near Yellowstone.

Her parents gave her an old Mustang her senior year at Pennsylvania State University, where she studied advertising.

She worked as a marketing manager at her college paper, where she is remembered as "a real nice girl."

She married and soon divorced her college boyfriend.

While waiting to get into the CIA, she worked a dull job at a D.C. department store that confirmed her longing for a challenge.

As a new recruit at the Farm, the CIA's training facility, her skill with an AK-47 stunned classmates.

She got master's degrees from the London School of Economics and the College of Europe in Belgium.

She speaks French, Greek and German.

With the CIA, she had nonofficial cover, or NOC, status and used a fake job title, meaning she lacked diplomatic protection if exposed overseas. Said to be the agency's creme de la creme, NOCs reportedly handle and recruit foreign agents.

She lied even to close friends and family about what she did.

In February 1997, she met diplomat Joseph Wilson, who was soon to be divorced, at the Washington, D.C., home of the Turkish ambassador, where she reminded Wilson of a young Grace Kelly and left him "hopelessly smitten."

She told him she was an energy consultant in Brussels.

"Ladies don't date married men," Plame told him when he tried to hold her hand.

She nervously confided her true occupation to him during their courtship, prompting his question: "Is your real name Valerie?"

The same year she met Wilson, the CIA brought her home to headquarters from overseas out of fear that double agent Aldrich Ames might have spilled her name to the Russians.

At HQ, she tracked weapons proliferation.

She married Wilson in April 1998 at Washington's City Hall, with her parents as the witnesses.

She gave $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential campaign in 1999.

She avoided talking politics.

She has a temper if you push the right buttons, but you have to push hard.

Even then, she remains dauntingly logical.

The balcony of her home in the Palisades area on the fringe of Washington has a spectacular view of the Washington Monument.

When she was decorating her kids' bedrooms, she shopped at Target.

She likes sales.

She drives a Prius hybrid, believing it socially responsible.

She is a great neighbor.

She told her next-door neighbor, Victoria Tillotson, she was an economic consultant to foreign countries.

"We live such quiet lives compared to them," Plame said, straight-faced, to her husband, when Mr. Tillotson mentioned he had once been a government lawyer.

When Mrs. Tillotson mentioned her granddaughter was having trouble sleeping, Plame suggested relaxation exercises that involved envisioning a sandy beach while flexing the toes and feet.

It is unclear whether the CIA taught her this.

When Mrs. Tillotson leaves town, she entrusts Plame with her pets, house key and alarm code, and has no fear Plame will misplace them.

In seven years as a neighbor, Plame has never knocked on the door to borrow sugar.

She keeps her house intimidatingly neat.

Even the walls are mind-bogglingly clean.

When Mrs. Tillotson wondered what the secret was, Plame brought her a box of Mr. Clean Magic Erasers and refused compensation.

She brings the Tillotsons chocolate from Harrods in London.

She worried whether she'd make a good mother.

Her stepson has described her as "relentlessly cheerful," but after giving birth to twins in January 2000, she descended into a bout of postpartum depression that lasted months.

As a result, she became active in postpartum support groups.

Jane Honikman, who works with her in those groups, thinks of her as "your normal suburban housewife (with) a big sunshiny smile" and cannot picture her with an AK-47.

She still calls her brother to vent; he still calls her "Val."

She reads to her twins every night.

She doesn't hold grudges, except for maybe against columnist Robert Novak & Co.

When Novak outed her as a spy in July 2003, she worried whether she would have any friends left now that they knew she'd been lying to them for years.

She attends the same church, but not the same service, as Republican mastermind Karl Rove.

Once exposed, she took greater care with her hair and lip gloss, knowing everyone would be staring.

Valerie Plame is her real name.

She wishes you hadn't heard of her.

Times researcher Caryn Baird contributed to this report.

Sources: Interviews with Samuel, Diane and Robert Plame; Victoria Tillotson; Candace Heckard; Jim Marcinkowski; and Jane Honikman; and The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies That Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity by Joseph Wilson

owl

I get so caught up in all these fine details that I forget what I once knew. Don't know if the CIA/Wilson part is the money thing that Mac believes.....but I do know how the media played it.

As I previously confessed.....I watched Matthews. The reason I recognized Wilson as Matthews' new best friend...they followed the set pattern and Wilson fit. I thought it was just #101 of the DNC/MSM attacks. They put it out in the majors (NYT/WaPo)..moves to TV circuit (Joe)..and usually there is a book involved (check) and possibly a movie or DNC film/ad.

Look back on Clarke promo(front page/circuit/book), AWOL promo(front page/60 min/ad). My point? They started this thing following the pattern but I think somewhere along the way, someone figured a bonus...."the outing" ESP?

What I keep forgetting and can't find....this was the DNC/MSM pattern. So where is the DNC? Okay....think AWOL and Burkett had to talk to Kerry campaign and remember, they had the ad ready.

They have had a free ride (DNC) with nary a fingerprint.

Syl

Val is someone who is so perfect that she made only three mistakes in her entire life:

1-marrying Joe Wilson
2-hyping him for a trip to Niger
3-not stopping Joe from revealing his Niger trip

Rick Ballard

A degree in advertising? No wonder Cathy is miffed. Her dad worked for No Such Agency after his Air Force stint. I imagine he might have known how to file a job application with the CIA.

topsecretk9

Syl

Control Freak. Eraser sponges? Geez what flipping fun her house must be, no wonder the PPD. Man, I could have a case of those things a month, and I still have to be scrubbing 24/7 to get to

--intimidatingly neat.

Even the walls are mind-bogglingly clean.--

I mean no matter how diligent and nazi like, I still can't maintain and police the burger flicking, drink on a daily basis spilling, and how exactly do boys get shoe scuff marks 2 inches from the ceiling?

ghostcat

Jeff (7:23 pm)

I don't believe your hare-brained interpretation either. But I do believe that a DC insider opposed to the U.S. invasion of Iraq might well consider R. Novak to be a potential ally. And I do believe Novak has benefitted financially from his chumminess with the Saudis. (I just heard someone mutter "Why so did Joe Wilson.")

Squiggler

Wow! I just read that Karl Rove has no degree.

Squiggler

I didn't think you could get a job in Washington without alphabet soup behind your name.

ghostcat

Karl Rove, TD.

Turd blossom.

Rick Ballard

Exceptions are made for producers and nobody in politics produces like Karl.

ghostcat

That would be TB.

topsecretk9

--A degree in advertising? No wonder Cathy is miffed. Her dad worked for No Such Agency after his Air Force stint. I imagine he might have known how to file a job application with the CIA.---

HEH. I resemble that remark, only sans CIA. However, father in law was at No Such Agency too and pushed a tike or 2 in that direction with help...hmmm.

clarice

Peteruk can confirm this. I believe a master's degree is nothing at British universities--just recognition that you attended the requisite amount of time.

ghostcat

Worked for Bill Clinton.

ghostcat

... or did he not put in the requisite time?

clarice

Don't you suppose a crack analyst on WMD would have more than a degree from Penn State in advertising and some science background? As for her IQ the source is apparently prejudiced. No one smart would get involved with Munchausen.
Was Grossman the Turkish Ambassador at whose house she met Munchausen?

topsecretk9

... or did he not put in the requisite time?

Well, he wasn't inhaling, if that's what you mean.

topsecretk9

---n February 1997, she met diplomat Joseph Wilson, who was soon to be divorced, at the Washington, D.C., home of the Turkish ambassador, where she reminded Wilson of a young Grace Kelly and left him "hopelessly smitten."


The same year she met Wilson, the CIA brought her home to headquarters from overseas out of fear that double agent Aldrich Ames might have spilled her name to the Russians.---


Doesn't give a clue here, but I think Vanity Fair said it was at the Turkish Embassy...

*********************BUT********************

and I did the asterisks so Sue and Kim will notice later on (cuz Sue went to bed)

*************************

But

Larry, in 1 of his diatribes (and I think I screen captured) informed Kim and Sue that in addition to Wilson's 1999 trip AND his 2002 trip -- he had mad 2 additional ***secret trips*** to Niger


so between sometime after resettling back a Langley 1998 to Feb. 2002 Wilson (according to Larry) made 4 trips to Niger

But Plame was on leave for the twins so how did this all come to fruition?

That is 4 trips to Niger in roughly 4 years ....


think about that. Why did Plame need to write up a "french contacts" memo if Wilson was the CIA's go to for Niger? Seems like they would have that memo on file...


Remember Wilson --INR says---- Wilson previewed the rationale for his trip to Niger

Squiggler

At Lower Moreland High School outside Philadelphia, she ran track.

She was the leader of a group of preppie, high-achieving friends.

She attends what is probably a private high school or at least a top flight public, and she lives on the outskirts of Philly with an IQ over 130, why Penn State and not U. of Penn., Swarthmore, Drexel, Bucknell, or one of the other top schools around there?

I graduated from H.S. in PA and Penn State was your "safe" school to apply to, your backup, not the first choice if you were a good student with good grades.

Squiggler

Oh well, this isn't the National Enquirer. I guess I should pull in the claws. Shame on me.

danking70

"ORDERED that the government should, at the May 5, 2006 hearing, be prepared to specify which factual allegations contained in the indictment it intends to introduce evidence about in its case-in-chief."

Friday looks to be interesting...No?

topsecretk9

Dank

Did you get this on Pacer???

Do tell?

danking70

TS, I found it in comments at FireDogLake, (which I probably should have mentioned).

http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/03/judge-issues-opinion-in-libby-case/#comment-89107

Stephen P - from below - yes, it’s on Pacer. I don’t have a link, but here’s a cut and paste of the body of the Order (w/o caption, signatures, etc.)

ORDER
On May 5, 2006, this Court will conduct a hearing to address the defendant’s Third
Motion to Compel Discovery Under Rule 16 and Brady. A substantial number of the defendant’s document requests, which are the subject of this motion, are predicated upon the defendant’s desire to respond to each factual allegation in the October 28, 2005 indictment. Accordingly, resolution of many of the issues in the defendant’s motion may depend, at least in part, on which factual allegations in the indictment the government intends to introduce evidence about in its case-in-chief.

Accordingly, it is hereby this 3rd day of May, 2006,

ORDERED that the government should, at the May 5, 2006 hearing, be prepared to specify which factual allegations contained in the indictment it intends to introduce evidence about in its case-in-chief.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think Christy did a great job simplifying on the other Order/Opinion, but the nit I’ll pick is bc of Frank’s post below thread - there was never a ruling that prevented the Prosecutor from filing ex parte docs. When he started to submit things to the Court in that manner in order to have the Court determine whether his grounds for not turning over to Libby were correct (under basically two statutory approaches) Libby objected and when the Court was inclined to OK the process anyway, Libby argued that IF the Prosecutor submitted the docs to the Court ex parte, he should only submit accompanying filings to the extent necessary to describe the docs. Libby’s argument was that the Prosecutor should not be able to *argue* ex parte the grounds for exclusion. For example, if the grounds were materiality, how could the Prosecutor know what is material to the DEFENDANT’S case? Team Libby said *we* should get a shot at arguing why things might be material instead of there being a bring your own pleading party for two in chambers.

The Judge agreed with Libby on that portion and incorporated it into his first Order. THEN the Prosecutor said — well, actually, there are going to be some very particularlized situations where we pretty much have to be able to proffer some argument with the ex parte submissions and gave some examples. Gov then asked the Court to either clarify that it did not mean THOSE kinds of things, or if it did, to reconsider the Order. Judge agreed with the Prosecutor, so he reconsidered the Order based upon a determination that his prior Order’s limiation on argument had been “clearly erroneous.”

Just to say - there was never any prohibition on ex parte filings. It’s also interesting to speculate on whether that was all purely protective “get it right” paperwork or wether some of the kinds of instances described might be floaters working their way downstream.

topsecretk9

Thanks Dank

I know footnote 2 of order today said

"The defendant will no doubt continue to object to this procedure. The Court notes, however, that 2 t this
process actually places the defendant in a stronger position then he otherwise would be. If this Court did not amend
its April 5, 2006 Opinion, the government, not the Court, would be tasked with independently determining the
materiality of certain classified information. Here, the Court, as it must under CIPA, will be the final arbiter of such
determinations."


Not sure how this factors.

topsecretk9

other than a hidden, party pooper.

Kate

So this Friday there will be a hearing on the media material that is relevant to the case? Should be interesting.

But, but Jason told us that Friday was the day Fitzgerald was going to announce Rove's indictment.

Busy day for Fitz.

Daddy

Reading the above posts I see that R Novak supposedly at one time writes very complementary stuff about Joe Wilson, but then has a change of heart and supposedly tells this questioning stranger that Joe Wilson is an "A$$hole". Any info as to what interactions between the two might have caused Novak's change of opinion?

Sue

Top,

That is 4 trips to Niger in roughly 4 years ....

I must have missed something he posted. I didn't understand from what I saw that all 4 trips were necessarily to Niger.

Sue

Top,

Sounds to me like Libby better hope Walton is on his payroll.

topsecretk9

--4 trips were necessarily to Niger.--

I assumed. Thanks...anyhow 4 *assignments* in 4 years.

kim

With Larry, like Joe, it is very difficult to understand what they mean because neither mind manipulating the truth for immediate, if short-sighted, gain. He mentioned two other trips 'unknown' to the public, then glosssed over or ignored it when you and I jumped him about it. I'd rate it possibly true, but, if false, indicative of other 'unknown' to the publics events. It will be nice to learn about them.
=======================================

Sue

Kim,

I think he was right about the 4 missions for the CIA. I just don't know if he meant all 4 were to Niger. I just wish I could have found out if all 4 were since he married Val. ::grin::

kim

You Chesuer Cat, You.
==============

cathyf
--A degree in advertising? No wonder Cathy is miffed. Her dad worked for No Such Agency after his Air Force stint. I imagine he might have known how to file a job application with the CIA.---

HEH. I resemble that remark, only sans CIA. However, father in law was at No Such Agency too and pushed a tike or 2 in that direction with help...hmmm.

Yeah, my dad got me the CIA interview because one of his friends sent along the resume. My dad worked for Rand, various defense contractors, and the Treasury Dept on the US delegation to an international treaty negotiation, so he had lots of DC contacts. So I gotta say I resemble that remark, too!

As for being pissed, yeah, like I said, Val and I are the same age, and I know something about Penn State. If she has a degree in advertising, she never took a science course higher than jr high level there -- maybe in high school, but certainly not in college. Her degree from LSE doesn't sound very technical either. Again, maybe -- LSE does some OR stuff which is pretty interesting, but we're generally not talking engineering here. I'm married to a professor in a chronically underfunded department who is a nuclear physicist, builds lab experiments, and heads a pre-engineering program, and so I have some appreciation of the technical challenges of building nuclear weapons as well as the skills that good engineers can bring to improvise under adversity. (Scrounging around for substitutes because the stuff in the manual is under UN sanctions is basically the same engineering skill as scrounging around for substitutes because the stuff in the manual is too expensive for you.)

So, yeah, I'm pissed that this ditz with no evident science or engineering education gets to give some "authoritative" conclusion that it would be too hard for Saddam to build WMDs under the UN sanction regime as it functioned. I see no evidence that she has any notion of what "hard" or "easy" is when it comes to the engineering challenges on the ground. And no, being obsessive-compulsive about your house doesn't count!

cathy :-)

cathyf
Reading the above posts I see that R Novak supposedly at one time writes very complementary stuff about Joe Wilson, but then has a change of heart and supposedly tells this questioning stranger that Joe Wilson is an "A$$hole". Any info as to what interactions between the two might have caused Novak's change of opinion?
Well, how about maybe Novak reads the newspapers? One of the glaringly obvious things about Wilson is that even if he had all of the knowledge that he claimed to have, he was simply not in any position to draw the conclusions that he drew. Back at the whole "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" logical truism we need to step back one more step. In this case, absence of evidence in Joe Wilson's little tiny corner of what he knew about is not even absence of evidence within the whole dataset of things that the US government knew about. Even if Val was brain-dumping everything she knew about Iraq WMDs to Joe, that still doesn't mean that the government couldn't have had some other information from a source completely unknown to Valerie.

Completely ignoring all the other evidence out that that Joe Wilson is an a$$hole, you can tell just from reading the newspapers quoting Joe Wilson that the logical disconnect between the different things that Joe Wilson claims indicates that Joe Wilson is an a$$hole.

cathy :-)

clarice

Now , for field work an attractive young blond might be of some use. Analyzing WMDs sounds like an educational mismatch and, I think, some evidence that this position was make work to keep her on the payroll after the Agency's last inadvertent outing of her.

PeterUK

If Val only got a degree in advertising then no course she took at the London School of Economics is going to inform her about where to light the blue touch paper on WMD.
If this is the calibre of personel the CIA is recruiting to police the very sensitive issue of WMD,you might as well surrender to Canada.

clarice

Even then, peteruk, I understand that to get the master's there she needed write no thesis. Basically just show up for a the requisite time.So what we have as our analyst manque is someone with a degree in Advertising from Penn State and whatever else the agency taught her.

clarice

I know my layabout ex-college roommate got a master's at LSE studying witchcraft in Anthropolgy--with no thesis and virtually no work.

windansea

So, yeah, I'm pissed that this ditz with no evident science or engineering education gets to give some "authoritative" conclusion that it would be too hard for Saddam to build WMDs under the UN sanction regime as it functioned

maybe Val was a "honeypot"

PeterUK

Clarice
"So what we have as our analyst manque is someone with a degree in Advertising from Penn State and whatever else the agency taught her."

Which, since the Agency got every major historical event of the 20th century wrong,is no recommendation.

BTW The LSE is notorious for its rampant leftesticlism,certainly it is institutionally anti-American,what did Val actually learn?

PeterUK

"maybe Val was a "honeypot"
But even that didn't work, she caught Joe,unless the original idea was for her to find out what he was doing for his ex wife,the mysterious French woman.

clarice

Heh! Unbelievable, isn't it? Pretty clearly a make work thingy, LJ and JL to the contrary, notwithstanding.

PeterUK

Yes,if Val were towing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad around on a dog lead,I would say well done Mata Hari,but instead she has a real dog,was this plan B?

windansea

don't forget that Val was hell on wheels with an AK 47....this would surely come in handy tracking down WMD's in Iran

PeterUK

also extremely useful for rowdy DC cocktail parties.
The AK 47 is notoriously inaccurate,badly constructed,if robust,it is the weapon of choice of the third world because it is plentiful supply,can be used to hammer in fence posts, flushed down the toilet,run over with a truck and can still fire random bursts with gay abandon into the air.

Bill in AZ

PeterUK, you owe me a new keyboard... coffee all over it...
Zarqawi demonstrated their skills with weapons in his video clips - now I understand why everyone says he's so dangerous. Wouldn't want to be his assistant. You would need to know how to count to 30, then come out from hiding, change his magazine for him, help him get it off safety, then run like hell...

clarice

Plus shop for New Balance Sneakers in souks teeming with angry Shias.

PeterUK

Bill,sorry about that...nobody seems to consider where all those hundreds of thousand round shot into the air come down..these blokes can lose an action just by celebrating.

PeterUK

Seems to me,that we have them beaten...as long as we stay in front of them.

clarice

Peter!

Squiggler

Anyone else catch the new polls, Prez. is up by 5 pts since a week ago.

Kate

Ah, but tomorrow the polls will come back down, because, according to that reliable source Jason Leopold - tomorrow is Rove indictment day. Jason is staking his reputation on it.

Bill in AZ

I dunno, watching that video of him waving that weapon around, including directly at one of his guys with finger on trigger (the video wasn't quite clear enough but you could see the guy have some kind of involuntary reaction somewhere south of his tailbone), I wouldn't want to be in front of, behind, around, above, or below Zarqawi with a weapon. The only place that was safe was where Zarqawi was standing, and I wouldn't put long odds on his toes either.
I've seen 7 year olds with better weapon discipline.

clarice

New Balance sneaker..ROFL..Did he have a Prada ammo clip?

PeterUK

Bill,why do you think bin Laden is hiding in a cave ?

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