Libby's team continues their tussle with the press. I intend to post the documents shortly.
Lawyers for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby urged a federal judge Monday to force several media organizations to turn over e-mails, drafts of news articles and reporters' notes they say the former top White House aide needs to receive a fair trial in the CIA leak case.
In a 45-page filing, Libby's lawyers said reporters have "no right _ under the Constitution or the common law _ to deprive Mr. Libby of evidence that will help establish his innocence at trial."
Hmm, I am looking at more than 45 pages here.
1. Here is Part 1 of the Consolidated response (23 page .pdf)
2. Here is Part 2 (27 page .pdf)
I am wimping out on the exhibits for now - they seem to be press clippings of various stories. [I am wimping out but cboldt is not! See UPDATE for a list of exhibits.]
Just picking through it - on p. 2, we see that the defense subpoenaed the Wash Post, which handed over the Woodward memo about his meeting with Libby (as previously reported at the bottom of the story, or by Jeff, with Eerie Prescience). HOWEVER - the defense did not pursue other material provided by the WaPo to the prosecution which the judge ruled did not have to be disclosed to the defense, and considers the WaPo to be finished. So, the whole question of who leaked to Woodward won't be answered by this route.
And on p. 12 of Part 2, we see that Andrea Mitchell has handwritten notes of what "may" be a conversation between her and Libby during the relevant time period prior to the publication of Novak's column. Her side claims they are irrelevant since they make no mention of Ms. Plame; Libby's side notes that, if Plame was not mentioned, the ruthless campaign by Evil BushCo to punish Joe by outing Valerie was evidently pursued with sub-maximal vigor. Well - it i snews to me that these two spoke.
The defense also slips a bit in describing Ms. Mitchell's situation vis a vis the investigation - they criticize Fitzgerald and cite Ms. Mithcell's statement that she has never been asked to testify, but overlook her earlier statement that she had spoken to investigators.
This is what she said on Oct 29, 2005 when discussing the case on CNBC's "The Tim Russert Show":
MITCHELL: You know, I should have spoke--'cause there's been a lot blogged about all of this--I was called by the CIA because it was erroneously reported in The Washington Post that I was the recipient of the leak before Novak's column came out, and I had not been. So I was never questioned because I simply told the FBI--and, you know, NBC put out a statement that night--that I had not been a recipient of the leak; in fact, I had learned about it from Novak's column like everyone else.
She was never questioned because she simply started talking... gee, that could have been any Saturday night when I was younger. Well, I still don't know what she meant by that.
On Matt Cooper, p. 13 of Part 2 provides a real headscratcher on the topic of Cooper's notes about the Cooper-Libby phone conversation on July 12:
In fact, there is no mention in these neasrly verbatim notes, in subsequent emails with colleagues, or elsewhere that Mr. Libby made any comment about Ms. Wilson at all.
Wow - is the prosecution really relying on Cooper's undocumented memory?
And even stranger - documents provided by the Special Counsel show that Matt Cooper kept a "Scooter Libby file" on a TIME database called Nirvana, which he updated after the July 12 talk. But the prosecutor has, apparently, not turned these over to the defense. Well, that may be a misunderstanding, since the prosecution has turned over other things. Still, the defense hammers the point that "it is hard to believe the government's allegation - that Mr. Libby confirmed this affiliation - if not a single employee of TIME took a moment to memorialize this fact".
From p. 18, we learn that Matt Cooper asked Tim Burger, another TIME reporter, to follow-up on Rove's information by calling Bill Harlow of the CIA press office. What, the defense wonders, did Mr. Harlow offer? One might presume he was chastened by his debacle with Robert Novak, but who knows?
And someone from TIME, probably Massimo Calabresi (who got a byline on the "War on Wilson?" piece) called Joe Wilson before the Cooepr-Rove talk, and again afterwards to get his reaction. Was he asked about his wife's role in his trip, or her CIA connection? What did he say? Inquiring defense lawyers want to know.
NOTE TO PACER FANS: I can't figure out the case numbers for the media related filings, but no matter - on PACER, go to Civil cases, District of Columbia, and name search on "Libby". A block of about six cases appear from 2006, and your common sense will take you from there. For the Libby *criminal* case, the case number is 1:05-cr-00394.
UPDATE: From cboldt:
Exhibits List
.A - 18 Apr 06 NBC letter - we have nothing responsive
.B - 31 Mar 06 CNN letter - we have nothing responsive
.C - 14 Apr 06 WaPo letter - we have been fully responsive
.D - 16 Oct 05 NYT article (Miller), "A Personal Account"
.E - 16 Oct 05 NYT article (Van Natta, Liptak, Levy), "The Miller Case: A notebook, a Cause, a Jail Cell and a Deal"
.F - 01 May 06 screen capture of http://judithmiller.org/news/ including "Responses to Byron Calame's Questions"
.G - 30 Oct 05 WaPo article (Gellman), "A Leak, Then a Deluge"
.H - 18 Jul 05 Bloomberg story (Keil, Roberts), "Special Prosecutor's Probe Centers on Rove, Memo, Phone Calls
.I - 17 Jul 05 MSNBC/Newsweek story (Fineman), "White House: Rove at War"
.J - 07 Feb 06 Slate article (Dickerson), "Where's My Subpoena?"
.K - 12 Jul 03 NYT article (Stevenson), "Bush has Praise for Uganda in Its Fights Against AIDS"
.L - 14 Apr 06 truthout article (Leopold), "Libby Filing: A Denial and a Mystery"
.M - 28 Sep 03 WaPo article (Allen, Priest), "Bush Administration is Focus of Inquiry"
.N - 01 Oct 03 Novak column, "The CIA Leak"
.O - 01 Aug 05 Novak editorial, "The allegation against me is so incorrect I feel constrained to reply."
.P - Pages 333, 334 & 346 from Joe Wilson's book, "What I didn't Find in Africa"
.Q - 27 Jul 05 WaPo article (Pincus, VandeHei), "Prosecutor in CIA Leak Case Casting a Wide Net"
.R - 01 May 06 screen capture of http://judithmiller.org/news/p20051101.php including "Oct 23, 2005 Letter to Maureen Dowd"
.S - Date ???? Vanity Fair article (Marie Brenner), "Lies and Consequences: Sixteen Words that Changed the World"
.T - 03 Oct 03 Transcript of CNBC Capital Report (Andrea Mitchell)
.U - 23 Nov 05 Transcript of MSNBC Imus (Andrea Mitchell)
.V - 10 Nov 05 Transcript of MSNBC Imus (Andrea Mitchell)
.W - 12 Jul 03 Transcript of NBC Nightly News (David Gregory on Tenet accepts blame)
.X - 17 Jul 03 Time magazine article (Cooper, Calabresi, Dickerson), "A War on Wilson?"
.Y - 25 Jul 05 Time magazine article (Cooper), "What I told the Grand Jury"
.Z - 30 Oct 05 Time magaizne article (Cooper), "What Scooter Libby and I talked About"
AA - 30 Apr 06 MSNBC/Newsweek article (Isikoff, Thomas), "Back on the Stand - Rove's Latest Trip to the GJ ..."
BB - 17 Jul 05 Transcript of Meet the Press (Russert interviews Cooper)
CC - 12 Dec 04 Transcript of CNN Reliable Sources (Kurtz interviews Cooper)
--Why wouldn't Wilson just call Novak and say, "I hear you're chatting about some stuff you shouldn't be chatting about, doesn't matter where I heard, what's your problem?--
They is no crime in a reporter calling around, and had Wilson just called to say Novak had no right to preform his job then you can bet that --- complaining--- would have factored into Novaks' article. And Wilson is not that dumb.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:31 PM
Sue
I was just gonna say...rats, you got banned - again.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:32 PM
Why wouldn't Wilson just call Novak and say, "I hear you're chatting about some stuff you shouldn't be chatting about, doesn't matter where I heard, what's your problem?"
Why wouldn't Novak respond: "and that's different from what you're doing how, exactly?"
Posted by: Cecil Turner | May 03, 2006 at 10:34 PM
Besides which Jeff
I wouldn't be surprised if Novak had expressed the view he expressed on the street to any number of colleagues and contact BEFORE the chance meeting.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:34 PM
the only thing elaborate about this is how far the chuck schuemer,dicky gulag durbin and a few others were willing to take this,they planned it with joe wilson and john kerry right before the election.this was bigger then joe the liar wilson.
Posted by: brenda taylor | May 03, 2006 at 10:36 PM
Well, isn't there a possibility that the stranger, friend of Wilson, could also be a reporter?
Snooping around trying to ferret out info from anyone who might have some, ie, another reporter? But a reporter who knows and is friendly with Wilson. Novak's hostile response re Wilson is an uh-oh moment: Somebody's out to get Wilson. I'd better let him know?
Posted by: Syl | May 03, 2006 at 10:39 PM
Top,
This is the first time he has actually banned me. The other times he just threatened. ::grin:: And I was just starting to get wink to warm up to me and actually debate.
If Larry peeks in here...you are a chicken shit.
Okay, have we figured out if Wilson called Novak first or Novak called Wilson first?
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 10:40 PM
Cooper? Nah, too new.
Pincus? Kristoff?
Wilson characterized him as a friend. Wilson and his ego would do that, n'est pas? 'Big name journalists are friends of mine. See how important I am'.
Posted by: Syl | May 03, 2006 at 10:42 PM
From Boris:
I half seriously suggested that Libby intentionally drew the flag by bafflegabbing his way into being the focus of the investigation in order to protect the administration. This appears to be your working theory now.
Fine, you're welcome to it.
Well, since I help launch that theory, let me throw another log on the fire.
In reviewing the Tatel redactions and the Fitzgerald affidavit, I was reminded of another odd detail from the affidavit:
Keep in mind that this affidavit was from Aug 2004, prior to Miller's testimony. And Pincus gave his deposition on Sept 15, 2004, so scratch him, too.
So, folks wondered at the time, what reporters had testified and who might have contradicted Libby?
The candidates were Novak, Kessler, and, I suppose, a reporter whose name has been kept out this.
But suppose it is Novak - might it be that the discrepancy was that, as with Cooper, Libby claimed to be a source for Novak? It is pretty clear now that Novak's sources were Rove (as a second source) and UGO, who can't be Libby.
IF that is what happened, then we have a situation where Libby claimed, in opposition to their accounts, to be the source for Novak and Cooper. And we have Rove forgetting to tell the FBI about both Novak and Cooper, and forgetting to tell the GJ about Cooper (until Oct 2004).
*IF* that actually happened, would Fitzgerald's interest in Rove and Libby be more explicable?
Well. There is no indictment for the discrepancy, so maybe it is on some lesser point and seemingly immaterial. Or maybe he says that he and Kessler discussed the Wilson trip, but not Plame; this is what Kessler told the CJR:
We can find Jeff backing Kessler here (and it is a plausible guess), but does anything rule out Novak?
Posted by: Tom Maguire | May 03, 2006 at 10:42 PM
Sue
I just informed all of the commenters responding to you that you can't respond because Larry has banned you.
Wilson called Novak, but they played phone tag a bit --Wilson also called Novak's "titular" boss, Eason Jordan to complain about Novak.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:44 PM
Tom,
Why wouldn't he have indicted on that if indeed he claimed he told Novak and he didn't?
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 10:46 PM
Wilson characterized him as a friend. Wilson and his ego would do that, n'est pas? 'Big name journalists are friends of mine. See how important I am'.
Larry or Chris Matthews.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:46 PM
Wouldn't Novak know who the friend was by now? Especially if it was a known reporter, etc.? Has Novak even claimed he doesn't know the 'friend'?
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 10:51 PM
We know that Andrea Mitchell says she spoke to Libby and the FBI.
Posted by: clarice | May 03, 2006 at 10:52 PM
what about david corn do they still consider hinm a reporter,you know he thinks val is a noc.
Posted by: brenda taylor | May 03, 2006 at 10:53 PM
--Has Novak even claimed he doesn't know the 'friend'?--
No, I don't think he disputes it, but he hasn't said who it is. But then, No Journo has asked either.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:54 PM
We know that the NYT says it has documentation of conversations between its reporters and Libby and his subordinates..though they say no Plame in those notes.
Posted by: clarice | May 03, 2006 at 10:55 PM
Tom
*IF* that actually happened, would Fitzgerald's interest in Rove and Libby be more explicable?
Yes, it would.
No Libby indictment on that score, though. Or could fitz be holding that back for possible conspiracy charges?
But as far as either Kessler or unnamed, it would not be enough to sent a reporter to jail for because the only reporter who went to print was Novak.
Libby could have leaked classified information (Mrs. Wilson is CIA), but at that point in time Fitz had no evidence Libby knew it was classified, we do not have an Official Secrets Act so someone revealing confidential stuff to a reporter who didn't go to print is 'wrong' but not criminal.
The only way Fitz could justify continuing the investigation by holding journalists in contempt of court was if he had a connection between Libby and Novak.
Otherwise Fitz should have said: 'Libby leaked. He should feel damn lucky nobody went to print with it!' and drop it.
Posted by: Syl | May 03, 2006 at 10:56 PM
Read them and how do they sound
Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [Novak] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [Novak] and Cooper.
Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [Mitchell] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [Mitchell] and Cooper.
Thus, Russert could not have then imparted that information to Libby. Moreover, Libby has given accounts of conversation with two other reporters - [Corn] and Matt Cooper of TIME magazine - that are contradicted in many respects by the testimony of [Corn] and Cooper.
Calling MJW, Calling MJW --- spacing?
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 10:57 PM
Top
Chris Matthews
Bingo!
Posted by: Syl | May 03, 2006 at 10:59 PM
"...that Joseph Wilson and the former Valerie Plame, etc --- wedding announcement that appeared in the NYT..."
Is this true? Anyone have a link?
The NY Times has a search function, but I am not finding a wedding announcement.
Posted by: Tom Maguire | May 03, 2006 at 11:00 PM
Top,
It isn't Corn. If it was Corn, he would have already spilled the beans. Wouldn't he?
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 11:01 PM
I don't think the friendly could be a reporter or Novak would certainly know who he/she was. Although the words "Wilson's an A$$hole" sounds like something one reporter might say to another. I can't see a reporter in Novak's class calling a former Ambassador an a$$hole to a government type or even to a woman, but he might to another reporter or to someone he considered a low life. Novak is not part of the MTV generation.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 03, 2006 at 11:02 PM
We can find Jeff backing Kessler here (and it is a plausible guess), but does anything rule out Novak?
Try this in Word, 12 point Times New Roman, 1" margins:
I think it works too well to be coincidence.Posted by: Cecil Turner | May 03, 2006 at 11:03 PM
Syl,
It could also explain why he told the judge he needed Miller's (and Cooper's) testimony, to see if he indicated he knew she was covert to either of them.
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 11:05 PM
Just checking ... when you are plugging Novak's name in to anything, are you using Robert Novak, Chicago Sun Times or CNN? And does it make any difference?
PS: I'm so impressed that you guys figured out how to do this in the first place.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 03, 2006 at 11:11 PM
Sue
to see if he indicated he knew she was covert to either of them.
True.
Yep. :(
Posted by: Syl | May 03, 2006 at 11:11 PM
When you google Novak, he seems to always come up as Chicago Sun Times Syndicated Columnist
Posted by: Squiggler | May 03, 2006 at 11:12 PM
Cecil
I think it [Kessler] works too well to be coincidence.
Which puts it back to where we were...unless there's an unknown (to us) convo between Kessler and Rove of which not a hint of a whisper of a trace of leaked knowledge of such exists.
And even if fitz is fishing for Libby's knowledge that Mrs. Wilson was classified, it has to tie to Novak to become criminal.
Otherwise gossip and background material going back and forther between government and journalists will come to a screeching halt.
Does the press yet realize what Fitz hath wrought on them?
Posted by: Syl | May 03, 2006 at 11:20 PM
Who are the 6 reporters in the 1x2x6?
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 11:24 PM
when you are plugging Novak's name in to anything, are you using Robert Novak, Chicago Sun Times or CNN? And does it make any difference?
No. "Times" is clearly too long to fit in the spot where "Post" works. CNN doesn't work either. (BTW, I lost some formatting when pasting: italicize the names of papers, ensure dashes with spaces at each end, and the spacing works better if you take out the comma after "Washington Post")
Who are the 6 reporters in the 1x2x6?
Some fantasy of Grossman's. Best bet: it never happened.
Posted by: Cecil Turner | May 03, 2006 at 11:27 PM
as far as im concerned the press is going to reep what they have sown.just not soon enough for me ,but im going to love watching it.
Posted by: brenda taylor | May 03, 2006 at 11:28 PM
The fun thing is that they know it's coming and blame Bush for it.
Posted by: clarice | May 03, 2006 at 11:32 PM
From Google search:
Posted by: Squiggler | May 03, 2006 at 11:35 PM
ts has all the exhibits from the last filing. I believe the NYT story on the Wilson/Plame nuptials is one of them.
Posted by: clarice | May 03, 2006 at 11:41 PM
Oh, and by the by, Wilson had 2 previous wives before Val. Anyone know where they might be or what kinds of jobs they might hold?
Posted by: Squiggler | May 03, 2006 at 11:42 PM
--The NY Times has a search function, but I am not finding a wedding announcement.---
I tried too and nada...could they be respecting everyones privacy *now*?
But that raises a good question, ISN"T THIS PUBLIC INFORMATION ANYWAYS - Information the Wilson's wanted public -- so I am sorry but even if Libby wanted it, the TImes can't argue PUBLIC printed material is privileged.
That is just dumb. They could say the same about an old article written about WIlson -- which is dumb too.
Besides, if media reports is the way Fitz's ghost supervisor keeps tabs on him, then media reports are not privileged
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 11:45 PM
--I believe the NYT story on the Wilson/Plame nuptials is one of them.--
Really? I'll check...didn't notice.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 11:49 PM
Top,
I'm trying to figure out why a wedding announcement in 1998 would be relevant. Unless they want to see what job description or something she used. Otherwise, I'm not seeing what the big deal about that would be. They would be able to obtain it from the library, if it is like our local newspaper. Anyway, I'm babbling. See you guys tomorrow.
Posted by: Sue | May 03, 2006 at 11:49 PM
Well, ts.. I was so overtired when I skimmed that stuff, I might be mistaken.
Squiggler, there's a bot of stuff about Wilson's second wife here..She's a lobbyist for Gabon. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1256475
Posted by: clarice | May 03, 2006 at 11:51 PM
--'Im trying to figure out why a wedding announcement in 1998 would be relevant.--
It's not...
NYT's tried some "chilling! Overboard" argument, in which the said the subpoena was so broad it covered even the Wilson engagement and wedding notices...Libby's team -- not missing a chance to highlight 1- the idiocy that they would have announced to the world their *secret* marriage, to *former* Valerie Plame and 2- reminded the NYT's and Walton the Wilson's were married in 1998 and since their subpoena was for materials starting Jan. 2003, the wedding announcement need not be produced
AKA- Dummies.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 03, 2006 at 11:55 PM
Well here is more than you would ever want to know about good ol' Val:
From the St. Petersburg, Fl Times:
Posted by: Squiggler | May 03, 2006 at 11:59 PM
I get so caught up in all these fine details that I forget what I once knew. Don't know if the CIA/Wilson part is the money thing that Mac believes.....but I do know how the media played it.
As I previously confessed.....I watched Matthews. The reason I recognized Wilson as Matthews' new best friend...they followed the set pattern and Wilson fit. I thought it was just #101 of the DNC/MSM attacks. They put it out in the majors (NYT/WaPo)..moves to TV circuit (Joe)..and usually there is a book involved (check) and possibly a movie or DNC film/ad.
Look back on Clarke promo(front page/circuit/book), AWOL promo(front page/60 min/ad). My point? They started this thing following the pattern but I think somewhere along the way, someone figured a bonus...."the outing" ESP?
What I keep forgetting and can't find....this was the DNC/MSM pattern. So where is the DNC? Okay....think AWOL and Burkett had to talk to Kerry campaign and remember, they had the ad ready.
They have had a free ride (DNC) with nary a fingerprint.
Posted by: owl | May 04, 2006 at 12:17 AM
Val is someone who is so perfect that she made only three mistakes in her entire life:
1-marrying Joe Wilson
2-hyping him for a trip to Niger
3-not stopping Joe from revealing his Niger trip
Posted by: Syl | May 04, 2006 at 12:19 AM
A degree in advertising? No wonder Cathy is miffed. Her dad worked for No Such Agency after his Air Force stint. I imagine he might have known how to file a job application with the CIA.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | May 04, 2006 at 12:23 AM
Syl
Control Freak. Eraser sponges? Geez what flipping fun her house must be, no wonder the PPD. Man, I could have a case of those things a month, and I still have to be scrubbing 24/7 to get to
--intimidatingly neat.
Even the walls are mind-bogglingly clean.--
I mean no matter how diligent and nazi like, I still can't maintain and police the burger flicking, drink on a daily basis spilling, and how exactly do boys get shoe scuff marks 2 inches from the ceiling?
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 12:29 AM
Jeff (7:23 pm)
I don't believe your hare-brained interpretation either. But I do believe that a DC insider opposed to the U.S. invasion of Iraq might well consider R. Novak to be a potential ally. And I do believe Novak has benefitted financially from his chumminess with the Saudis. (I just heard someone mutter "Why so did Joe Wilson.")
Posted by: ghostcat | May 04, 2006 at 12:34 AM
Wow! I just read that Karl Rove has no degree.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 04, 2006 at 12:35 AM
I didn't think you could get a job in Washington without alphabet soup behind your name.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 04, 2006 at 12:37 AM
Karl Rove, TD.
Turd blossom.
Posted by: ghostcat | May 04, 2006 at 12:38 AM
Exceptions are made for producers and nobody in politics produces like Karl.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | May 04, 2006 at 12:40 AM
That would be TB.
Posted by: ghostcat | May 04, 2006 at 12:40 AM
--A degree in advertising? No wonder Cathy is miffed. Her dad worked for No Such Agency after his Air Force stint. I imagine he might have known how to file a job application with the CIA.---
HEH. I resemble that remark, only sans CIA. However, father in law was at No Such Agency too and pushed a tike or 2 in that direction with help...hmmm.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 12:41 AM
Peteruk can confirm this. I believe a master's degree is nothing at British universities--just recognition that you attended the requisite amount of time.
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 12:46 AM
Worked for Bill Clinton.
Posted by: ghostcat | May 04, 2006 at 12:47 AM
... or did he not put in the requisite time?
Posted by: ghostcat | May 04, 2006 at 12:49 AM
Don't you suppose a crack analyst on WMD would have more than a degree from Penn State in advertising and some science background? As for her IQ the source is apparently prejudiced. No one smart would get involved with Munchausen.
Was Grossman the Turkish Ambassador at whose house she met Munchausen?
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 12:49 AM
... or did he not put in the requisite time?
Well, he wasn't inhaling, if that's what you mean.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 12:51 AM
---n February 1997, she met diplomat Joseph Wilson, who was soon to be divorced, at the Washington, D.C., home of the Turkish ambassador, where she reminded Wilson of a young Grace Kelly and left him "hopelessly smitten."
The same year she met Wilson, the CIA brought her home to headquarters from overseas out of fear that double agent Aldrich Ames might have spilled her name to the Russians.---
Doesn't give a clue here, but I think Vanity Fair said it was at the Turkish Embassy...
*********************BUT********************
and I did the asterisks so Sue and Kim will notice later on (cuz Sue went to bed)
*************************
But
Larry, in 1 of his diatribes (and I think I screen captured) informed Kim and Sue that in addition to Wilson's 1999 trip AND his 2002 trip -- he had mad 2 additional ***secret trips*** to Niger
so between sometime after resettling back a Langley 1998 to Feb. 2002 Wilson (according to Larry) made 4 trips to Niger
But Plame was on leave for the twins so how did this all come to fruition?
That is 4 trips to Niger in roughly 4 years ....
think about that. Why did Plame need to write up a "french contacts" memo if Wilson was the CIA's go to for Niger? Seems like they would have that memo on file...
Remember Wilson --INR says---- Wilson previewed the rationale for his trip to Niger
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 01:03 AM
At Lower Moreland High School outside Philadelphia, she ran track.
She was the leader of a group of preppie, high-achieving friends.
She attends what is probably a private high school or at least a top flight public, and she lives on the outskirts of Philly with an IQ over 130, why Penn State and not U. of Penn., Swarthmore, Drexel, Bucknell, or one of the other top schools around there?
I graduated from H.S. in PA and Penn State was your "safe" school to apply to, your backup, not the first choice if you were a good student with good grades.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 04, 2006 at 02:02 AM
Oh well, this isn't the National Enquirer. I guess I should pull in the claws. Shame on me.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 04, 2006 at 02:05 AM
"ORDERED that the government should, at the May 5, 2006 hearing, be prepared to specify which factual allegations contained in the indictment it intends to introduce evidence about in its case-in-chief."
Friday looks to be interesting...No?
Posted by: danking70 | May 04, 2006 at 02:58 AM
Dank
Did you get this on Pacer???
Do tell?
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 03:00 AM
TS, I found it in comments at FireDogLake, (which I probably should have mentioned).
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/03/judge-issues-opinion-in-libby-case/#comment-89107
Stephen P - from below - yes, it’s on Pacer. I don’t have a link, but here’s a cut and paste of the body of the Order (w/o caption, signatures, etc.)
ORDER
On May 5, 2006, this Court will conduct a hearing to address the defendant’s Third
Motion to Compel Discovery Under Rule 16 and Brady. A substantial number of the defendant’s document requests, which are the subject of this motion, are predicated upon the defendant’s desire to respond to each factual allegation in the October 28, 2005 indictment. Accordingly, resolution of many of the issues in the defendant’s motion may depend, at least in part, on which factual allegations in the indictment the government intends to introduce evidence about in its case-in-chief.
Accordingly, it is hereby this 3rd day of May, 2006,
ORDERED that the government should, at the May 5, 2006 hearing, be prepared to specify which factual allegations contained in the indictment it intends to introduce evidence about in its case-in-chief.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think Christy did a great job simplifying on the other Order/Opinion, but the nit I’ll pick is bc of Frank’s post below thread - there was never a ruling that prevented the Prosecutor from filing ex parte docs. When he started to submit things to the Court in that manner in order to have the Court determine whether his grounds for not turning over to Libby were correct (under basically two statutory approaches) Libby objected and when the Court was inclined to OK the process anyway, Libby argued that IF the Prosecutor submitted the docs to the Court ex parte, he should only submit accompanying filings to the extent necessary to describe the docs. Libby’s argument was that the Prosecutor should not be able to *argue* ex parte the grounds for exclusion. For example, if the grounds were materiality, how could the Prosecutor know what is material to the DEFENDANT’S case? Team Libby said *we* should get a shot at arguing why things might be material instead of there being a bring your own pleading party for two in chambers.
The Judge agreed with Libby on that portion and incorporated it into his first Order. THEN the Prosecutor said — well, actually, there are going to be some very particularlized situations where we pretty much have to be able to proffer some argument with the ex parte submissions and gave some examples. Gov then asked the Court to either clarify that it did not mean THOSE kinds of things, or if it did, to reconsider the Order. Judge agreed with the Prosecutor, so he reconsidered the Order based upon a determination that his prior Order’s limiation on argument had been “clearly erroneous.”
Just to say - there was never any prohibition on ex parte filings. It’s also interesting to speculate on whether that was all purely protective “get it right” paperwork or wether some of the kinds of instances described might be floaters working their way downstream.
Posted by: danking70 | May 04, 2006 at 03:05 AM
Thanks Dank
I know footnote 2 of order today said
"The defendant will no doubt continue to object to this procedure. The Court notes, however, that 2 t this
process actually places the defendant in a stronger position then he otherwise would be. If this Court did not amend
its April 5, 2006 Opinion, the government, not the Court, would be tasked with independently determining the
materiality of certain classified information. Here, the Court, as it must under CIPA, will be the final arbiter of such
determinations."
Not sure how this factors.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 03:37 AM
other than a hidden, party pooper.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 03:41 AM
So this Friday there will be a hearing on the media material that is relevant to the case? Should be interesting.
But, but Jason told us that Friday was the day Fitzgerald was going to announce Rove's indictment.
Busy day for Fitz.
Posted by: Kate | May 04, 2006 at 04:10 AM
Reading the above posts I see that R Novak supposedly at one time writes very complementary stuff about Joe Wilson, but then has a change of heart and supposedly tells this questioning stranger that Joe Wilson is an "A$$hole". Any info as to what interactions between the two might have caused Novak's change of opinion?
Posted by: Daddy | May 04, 2006 at 04:13 AM
Top,
That is 4 trips to Niger in roughly 4 years ....
I must have missed something he posted. I didn't understand from what I saw that all 4 trips were necessarily to Niger.
Posted by: Sue | May 04, 2006 at 09:25 AM
Top,
Sounds to me like Libby better hope Walton is on his payroll.
Posted by: Sue | May 04, 2006 at 09:29 AM
--4 trips were necessarily to Niger.--
I assumed. Thanks...anyhow 4 *assignments* in 4 years.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | May 04, 2006 at 11:24 AM
With Larry, like Joe, it is very difficult to understand what they mean because neither mind manipulating the truth for immediate, if short-sighted, gain. He mentioned two other trips 'unknown' to the public, then glosssed over or ignored it when you and I jumped him about it. I'd rate it possibly true, but, if false, indicative of other 'unknown' to the publics events. It will be nice to learn about them.
=======================================
Posted by: kim | May 04, 2006 at 11:29 AM
Kim,
I think he was right about the 4 missions for the CIA. I just don't know if he meant all 4 were to Niger. I just wish I could have found out if all 4 were since he married Val. ::grin::
Posted by: Sue | May 04, 2006 at 11:46 AM
You Chesuer Cat, You.
==============
Posted by: kim | May 04, 2006 at 11:49 AM
As for being pissed, yeah, like I said, Val and I are the same age, and I know something about Penn State. If she has a degree in advertising, she never took a science course higher than jr high level there -- maybe in high school, but certainly not in college. Her degree from LSE doesn't sound very technical either. Again, maybe -- LSE does some OR stuff which is pretty interesting, but we're generally not talking engineering here. I'm married to a professor in a chronically underfunded department who is a nuclear physicist, builds lab experiments, and heads a pre-engineering program, and so I have some appreciation of the technical challenges of building nuclear weapons as well as the skills that good engineers can bring to improvise under adversity. (Scrounging around for substitutes because the stuff in the manual is under UN sanctions is basically the same engineering skill as scrounging around for substitutes because the stuff in the manual is too expensive for you.)
So, yeah, I'm pissed that this ditz with no evident science or engineering education gets to give some "authoritative" conclusion that it would be too hard for Saddam to build WMDs under the UN sanction regime as it functioned. I see no evidence that she has any notion of what "hard" or "easy" is when it comes to the engineering challenges on the ground. And no, being obsessive-compulsive about your house doesn't count!
cathy :-)
Yeah, my dad got me the CIA interview because one of his friends sent along the resume. My dad worked for Rand, various defense contractors, and the Treasury Dept on the US delegation to an international treaty negotiation, so he had lots of DC contacts. So I gotta say I resemble that remark, too!Posted by: cathyf | May 04, 2006 at 12:12 PM
Completely ignoring all the other evidence out that that Joe Wilson is an a$$hole, you can tell just from reading the newspapers quoting Joe Wilson that the logical disconnect between the different things that Joe Wilson claims indicates that Joe Wilson is an a$$hole.
cathy :-)
Well, how about maybe Novak reads the newspapers? One of the glaringly obvious things about Wilson is that even if he had all of the knowledge that he claimed to have, he was simply not in any position to draw the conclusions that he drew. Back at the whole "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" logical truism we need to step back one more step. In this case, absence of evidence in Joe Wilson's little tiny corner of what he knew about is not even absence of evidence within the whole dataset of things that the US government knew about. Even if Val was brain-dumping everything she knew about Iraq WMDs to Joe, that still doesn't mean that the government couldn't have had some other information from a source completely unknown to Valerie.Posted by: cathyf | May 04, 2006 at 12:51 PM
Now , for field work an attractive young blond might be of some use. Analyzing WMDs sounds like an educational mismatch and, I think, some evidence that this position was make work to keep her on the payroll after the Agency's last inadvertent outing of her.
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 01:01 PM
If Val only got a degree in advertising then no course she took at the London School of Economics is going to inform her about where to light the blue touch paper on WMD.
If this is the calibre of personel the CIA is recruiting to police the very sensitive issue of WMD,you might as well surrender to Canada.
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 01:07 PM
Even then, peteruk, I understand that to get the master's there she needed write no thesis. Basically just show up for a the requisite time.So what we have as our analyst manque is someone with a degree in Advertising from Penn State and whatever else the agency taught her.
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 01:24 PM
I know my layabout ex-college roommate got a master's at LSE studying witchcraft in Anthropolgy--with no thesis and virtually no work.
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 01:25 PM
So, yeah, I'm pissed that this ditz with no evident science or engineering education gets to give some "authoritative" conclusion that it would be too hard for Saddam to build WMDs under the UN sanction regime as it functioned
maybe Val was a "honeypot"
Posted by: windansea | May 04, 2006 at 01:33 PM
Clarice
"So what we have as our analyst manque is someone with a degree in Advertising from Penn State and whatever else the agency taught her."
Which, since the Agency got every major historical event of the 20th century wrong,is no recommendation.
BTW The LSE is notorious for its rampant leftesticlism,certainly it is institutionally anti-American,what did Val actually learn?
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 01:39 PM
"maybe Val was a "honeypot"
But even that didn't work, she caught Joe,unless the original idea was for her to find out what he was doing for his ex wife,the mysterious French woman.
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 01:48 PM
Heh! Unbelievable, isn't it? Pretty clearly a make work thingy, LJ and JL to the contrary, notwithstanding.
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 01:57 PM
Yes,if Val were towing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad around on a dog lead,I would say well done Mata Hari,but instead she has a real dog,was this plan B?
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 02:04 PM
don't forget that Val was hell on wheels with an AK 47....this would surely come in handy tracking down WMD's in Iran
Posted by: windansea | May 04, 2006 at 04:12 PM
also extremely useful for rowdy DC cocktail parties.
The AK 47 is notoriously inaccurate,badly constructed,if robust,it is the weapon of choice of the third world because it is plentiful supply,can be used to hammer in fence posts, flushed down the toilet,run over with a truck and can still fire random bursts with gay abandon into the air.
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 04:31 PM
PeterUK, you owe me a new keyboard... coffee all over it...
Zarqawi demonstrated their skills with weapons in his video clips - now I understand why everyone says he's so dangerous. Wouldn't want to be his assistant. You would need to know how to count to 30, then come out from hiding, change his magazine for him, help him get it off safety, then run like hell...
Posted by: Bill in AZ | May 04, 2006 at 04:39 PM
Plus shop for New Balance Sneakers in souks teeming with angry Shias.
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 04:42 PM
Bill,sorry about that...nobody seems to consider where all those hundreds of thousand round shot into the air come down..these blokes can lose an action just by celebrating.
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 04:59 PM
Seems to me,that we have them beaten...as long as we stay in front of them.
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 05:08 PM
Peter!
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 05:16 PM
Anyone else catch the new polls, Prez. is up by 5 pts since a week ago.
Posted by: Squiggler | May 04, 2006 at 05:22 PM
Ah, but tomorrow the polls will come back down, because, according to that reliable source Jason Leopold - tomorrow is Rove indictment day. Jason is staking his reputation on it.
Posted by: Kate | May 04, 2006 at 05:35 PM
I dunno, watching that video of him waving that weapon around, including directly at one of his guys with finger on trigger (the video wasn't quite clear enough but you could see the guy have some kind of involuntary reaction somewhere south of his tailbone), I wouldn't want to be in front of, behind, around, above, or below Zarqawi with a weapon. The only place that was safe was where Zarqawi was standing, and I wouldn't put long odds on his toes either.
I've seen 7 year olds with better weapon discipline.
Posted by: Bill in AZ | May 04, 2006 at 05:36 PM
New Balance sneaker..ROFL..Did he have a Prada ammo clip?
Posted by: clarice | May 04, 2006 at 05:40 PM
Bill,why do you think bin Laden is hiding in a cave ?
Posted by: PeterUK | May 04, 2006 at 05:54 PM