The Rove Watch

Both the NY Times and Murray Waas agree that the focus of Karl Rove's recent testimony was his interaction with Matt Cooper of TIME.

Something to keep in mind - *IF* this is correct, then Matt Cooper will be the star witness in a case against Rove.  And it has never been reported that this grand jury has ever met with him; presumably, anything they know about him has come from transcripts of his testimony to the original grand jury hearing this investigation.

So, a straw in the wind for which to watch - if Special Counsel Fitzgerald is seriously inclined to indict Rove (which I think he is going to attempt), this grand jury may want to look the star witness  in the eye before voting any indictments.

Would Matt Cooper report on it if here were called back to the grand jury?  I don't know - he was voluble after his last go-around (Meet the Press, his account), but that was then.

MORE:  File Kate's contribution under either "Great minds run in the same channel" or "Fools think alike".

STRAW WATCH:  While watching for straws in the wind, here is another to keep an eye out for - just before the Libby indictment, we got the inoculating leak in the Times that Dick Cheney had told Lewis Libby about Valerie Plame (this post comments and Eerily Anticipates Libby's "I Forgot" defense).

So - *IF* Rove's team is expecting an imminent indictment and *IF* Rove's testimony includes some similar bombshell, look for the deflating, heads-up leak.

And on that subject, the question of just how Rove learned about Ms. Plame will surely be covered in an indictment, if one is forthcoming.  We welcome speculation on that point - Mr. Waas' recent report was this:

According to legal sources familiar with Rove's testimony, Rove said that prior to talking with Cooper on July 11, 2003, he believed that he first heard that Plame worked for the CIA from a person who was a journalist, although he has also testified that he could not recall the name of the person or the circumstances of the conversation.

Pretty thin soup as explanations go.  OTOH, as the EmptyWheel recently reminded me, Karl Rove was working with Tenet and Libby to declassify the CIA account of the Wilson trip, which almost certainly did *not* mention Valerie Plame.  The INR report, which made a casual mention of Ms. Plame, was briefed to Libby but not (as best we know) Rove.

So what did Rove know about Valerie Plame, and how did he know it?

Comments

[Syl]

With all the demonstrations going on around the country I think there should be one more.

Let's all march on washington with signs reminding the world of:

UGO!
UGO!
UGO!

[steve sturm]

And as I wrote a while back (#2), I don't envy Fitzgerald trying to make a case with Mandy Grunwald's husband as the star witness...

[sad]

An indictment of Rove will guarentee the LSM won't cover MOM.

[noah]

I predict (hope is more like it) that Fitz does not indict Rove. His supposed crime is trivial and the record has been corrected.

[Semanticleo]

"grand jury may want to look the star witness in the eye before voting any indictments."

I'm sorry. Is there alternate pool of SP
juries who wax independent and don't
indict a ham sandwich if the prosecutor
recommends? Or is it just the judicious
nature of FitzZorro which requires neatly
bundled packages?

[patch]

Or maybe, Cooper is the one to be indicted?

Karl Rove is in the clear, Intrade isn't even offering a contract on a possible indictment. I wish they would, the last two gave me better returns than my 457 plan.

[Jane]

Yesterday on Fox News Sunday, Bill Kristol commented that the latest Rove testimony was a non-event. Fitzgerald asked Rove why he didn't tell about the Matt Cooper encounter the first time, and Rove said he forgot. Fitzgerald then asked him if he was trying to hide something, and Rove said "no". Fitzgerald asked the GJ if they had any questions and they didn't so he said "we are done".

(That's from my rather aged memory) but Kristol's point was that it didn't seem like Rove had much to worry about.

[Semanticleo]

"His supposed crime is trivial and the record has been corrected."

Try pinching another legal loaf.

Alphonso Capone may not have been guilty
of tax evasion either.

[Patton]

Using a CBOLDT analogy....

Someone robs a bank (UGO to Novak)and runs out the left door. The police arrive and find a bystander (Libby) and ask where did they go? Libby points at the right door (big time reporter) and says I think that way.

Ah Ha! Fitz says Libby lied and indicts him.

But then we learn that although the criminals ran out the left door (to the parking garage), Libby pointed them to the right door (big time reporter who talked to UGO), but it led to the criminals
being caught at the parking garage gate which was out the right door (UGO was the first to leak and the one to publish).

So even though on its face, Libby misdirected the police (Right instead of left), he was not doing it to hurt the investigation, but in fact find the cuprits (Shortcut to parking garage gate and original source of leak - UGO to Woodward).

[kim]

So, Bitter Bobcat, if Rove is in so much jeopardy, and there is certainly plenty of mouth about it elsewhere, where is the money? Nobody cares to risk real cash on FitzMay?
====================================

[Javani]

Another interesting issue with cooper is which one of his co-writers knew about Wilson's sife and from whom did he learn it.

[kim]

Should read 'strife'.
=============

[kim]

That was no daily, that was my strife.
=======================

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

' I don't envy Fitzgerald trying to make a case with Mandy Grunwald's husband as the star witness...'

Nor with Tim Russert either, after his performance on Meet the Press yesterday. It went something like:

Russert: 'Mr Secretary, demand for oil is up, supply is down. How can profits be up?'

Sam Bodman: 'For the reasons you say.'

Russert: 'Think about it.'

[Patton]

And if it is Fitz task to willy-nilly investigate every reported leaking of Valerie Plame, why hasn't Joe Wilson been indicted for leaking it to General Paul Vallely or whoever leaked it to Cliff May.

Or for that matter Valerie herself is on record leaking it to Wilson during a casual sexual encounter.

Remember when 'casual sexual encounter' meant the exact same thing in the Clinton adminstration??

I don't see Fitz prosecuting all those people.

[maryrose]

I agree with Noah that Rove's testimony has cleared up any misunderstanding. Bill Kristol explained it well on Fox News Sunday. Nothing new to see here...time to move on to how Rove will help repubs in 06 elections despite efforts of dems to marginalize him by this Plame kerfuffle.

[maryrose]

Off topic:
Who rehired MOM and why was she placed in that sensitive intelligence area. I've decided to ask this question repeatedly until I get an answer.

[Kate]

TM: thanks, we'll see if we're fools or great minds soon enough. The leftists are predicting Fitzmas this Friday. That doesn't give much time for Cooper to testify. I'm thinking several weeks at least.

It seems the Leopold comments are being circulated around the leftist websites, so much of the "noise" is merely an echo.

Leopold said that Rove was going to be indicted in December and January if I recall correctly, he's worse than David Schuster. However, he did quote that FBI guy who retired, perhaps that guy still gets info from the case, but I would doubt that.

Murray Waas and the New York Times are another story and they seem non-committal, although Waas is trying to help Fitz out.

Who knows?

[noah]

Patrick, Derbyshire@NRO has a slightly different quote:

Russert, challenging Energy Secretary Sam Bodman: "Oil demand is up. Supply is down. So why are prices rising?"

Which is so stupid I am thinking your quote "must" be more accurate!

[Sue]

I think Fitz will indict Rove. If we are putting our guesses out there.

[Jor]

Waiting to get the TM take on http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/MSNBC_confirms_Raw_Story_report_Outed_0501.html

Plame working on Iran. Operation Blown.

[Jor]

fixed link (raw story/msnbc)

[Kate]

I did a search on Leopold's stories and he had Rove being indicted in December and again in January. Apparently the GJ didn't indict in December because they had questions and Fitz was too busy in Chicago to answer.

Leopold also reported that Rove accepted a plea in December but then he turned down a plea deal in January.

Leopold keeps saying the Rove will be indicted every week, on Friday and Fitz being Fitz he figures he'll be right one week.

Raw Story has been just as bad, I believe.

[topsecretk9]

OT, but this is so incredible...Time does a little Mary McCarthy titled " Did She Say Too Much?
(of course implying she just goofed) but the seek out 4 ex-CIA experts opinion, of course Ray McGovern and AGAIN of course do not tell the reader that McGovern is a founder of a group demanding CIA officers not only divulge/leak secrets but nasty ones that might hurt Bush. Any of course they all but they last find some stupid hypocritical caveat which implies that she is poor, poor Mary.

And the wonder why blogs are eating them alive...

[topsecretk9]

sorry for typo hell

[Jimbo]

Noah

fwiw, the "Meet the Press" transcript is here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12518683/page/3/

[topsecretk9]

Last Raw Story, the Larissa ( Russian last name gal) said that Rove had been cooperating with Fitz all this time on Libby, so

[Kate]

Is David Schuster for real? His reporting has been really bad, don't know if he is considered a real reporter. Now, that Raw Story is using him as a confirming source (I heard that too) I'm really worried.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

The exact lines from MTM:

---------quote----------

MR. RUSSERT: Mr. Secretary, if, if demand is up but supply is down, why are the profits so high?

MR. BODMAN: For that reason.

MR. RUSSERT: No, think about that.

MR. BODMAN: You know?

MR. RUSSERT: Play it out.

MR. BODMAN: Demand is up.

MR. RUSSERT: Correct.

MR. BODMAN: Right?

MR. RUSSERT: Right.

MR. BODMAN: So you’ve got more demand, you’re going to force price up.

You’ve got, you’ve got limited supply, and you’re going to have...

MR. RUSSERT: But that’s a decision by the oil companies.

MR. BODMAN: No, it is not. That is a decision—those are—oil is traded every minute of every day, and it’s traded basically 24-by-seven. And it’s, it is determined in marketplaces in New York and London and Tokyo, all over the world. That’s the, the—the oil companies do not determine the price of oil; the producers determine the price of oil.

MR. RUSSERT: They determine, they determine, help determine the price at the pump. And if the, if their profits are going up, they have made a decision to add on the cost at the pump at such a level to guarantee higher profits.
-----------endquote-------

That is a very stupid man.

[maryrose]

Kate:
I just saw Shuster on Hardball and his lies were outrageous. They had Joe say a few words from the Correspondent,s dinner about how he couldn't believe Rove was still collecting a paycheck from this administration. Shuster provided the usual Joe talking points again claimimg falsely that the administration outed his wife Plame {who stood beside him smiling.} For my money; Plame doesn't look that "hot" close up. I think Morgan Fairchild could give her a run for money and she has more class.They looked like two celebrity "wannabees". An altogether disgraceful performance. I think Kate captured it correctly with her Great Gatsby analogy.Tom and Daisy Redux.

[maryrose]

should read Kate ,you captured it

[Keith]

if Special Counsel Fitzgerald is seriously inclined to indict Rove (which I think he is)

Tom: are you predicting an indictment, or are you thinking that Fitzgerald naturally leans that direction, but there's still a possibility that it won't happen?

[ghostcat]

My semi-educated, non-lawyer guess is no indictment for Rove, but seveal surprises to come. Keep yer eye on The Raporter (sic)... AKA Bob Woodward.

[Kate]

MR-thanks for the kinda words. I can't watch Hardball anymore. Valerie is a little long in the tooth for a scandal babe. Usually they are much younger. She should just continue to keep a low profile. She is starting to seem silly.

[Sue]

ghost,

Why? You think he will be indicted?

[Squiggler]

I'm worried about TM and the brainwashing he has obviously undergone on his field trips. Those mindrays that Fitz is also inflicted with, it would seem.

[topsecretk9]

I wish I could figure out Spooky Kitty's sic

[ghostcat]

The Raporter ... like The Shadow before him ... knows. More than we do, certainly. More than Fitz did 7 months ago.

[Sue]

ghost,

You think he will write a story?

[Kate]

Yes, I wonder about those mindrays, too. Actually, I am more optimistic for Rove than I was on Wednesday.

However, I don't trust Fitz. He's had 2 years to get someone on this case and then got Libby in the bottom of the ninth. He's going extra innings to find something on Rove. He's practically screaming, Look at me, world, I have a weak case.

Plus how do we know that Cooper wasn't lying. He had motive to since he wrote a huge article on "The War on Wilson" looks rather foolish if his big scoop was a 2-minute chat with Rove, who was too polite to pretend he wasn't there.

[ghostcat]

TS -

"Raporter" is the way Woodward pronounces it. That is, it's not just another ghostcat typo.

[ghostcat]

Sue -

This story is simply too big for Woodward to pass up, especially given his extraordinary access to Team Bush. Maybe a book, maybe a chapter, maybe a WaPo series. But much more than a single article.

[topsecretk9]

ohh- that Maryland/DC thing...like enunciating the letter A and the letter S together is the way he's an "ass" sounds. Got it.

[topsecretk9]

"A+S" = maryland "ass"

[hcow]

"For my money; Plame doesn't look that "hot" close up. I think Morgan Fairchild could give her a run for money and she has more class.They looked like two celebrity "wannabees". An altogether disgraceful performance. "

Yeah, eff them. So what if Val-a-rie was working on Iran. Bad dye job = don't indict Karl. C'mon media - wake up!

[Patton]

Given the Libby indictment, I say Fitz needs to indict everyone who either provided inaccurate testimony or forgot a specefic conversation.

As for Tim Russert and the price of oil/gas.

Your profit isn't determined by what you paid to buy and refine and distribute the last gallon of gas...its what the FUTURE gallons are going to cost.

I did like the one guys dig on the price of Katie Couric vice her value to the share holders. Russert was shocked someone would use an NBC twit as an example.

Someone should have said.. Well gee Tim, viewership of braodcast News shows is way down, but last time I check the news guys were requesting record salaries!!

[Syl]

So many conflations in this whole affair.

Sought/Bought!
NIE/Plame!
MrsWilson/Plame!
16 words/forgery!
AdminOfficial/SAO/GovtOfficial
CIA employment/Automatic Secret!
SecureLine/Plame!
Declassification/Leak!
PerjuryObstruction/Indicted for Leaking!
YouHeardThatToo/Confirmation!
Africa/Niger!
1of9AgenciesDissents/NoCaseForWar!
noWMD/BushLied!

When you really think about it, it's disgusting. Truly disgusting.

[Syl]

So what did Rove know about Valerie Plame, and how did he know it?

How about Libby told Rove that he heard Mrs. Wilson was CIA from Russert? I thought they had a convo (Official A in Libby indictment or presser or whatever.)

It was Novak who filled in the details for Rove...but I doubt that matters much. (Plame, CPD)

[Lew Clark]

It depends. If there is still some semblance of America left, there will be no indictment. Based on no crime.
However, we are in a place where there are political "show trials" (Martha Stewart, Tom DeLay) and May Day parades. In such a place, Commissar Fitzgerald can indict, convict, and have Rove (the enemy of the State) hauled off to political prison for life. So let's wait and see if the American dream is over, or there was just a bump in the road and it's not too late to get rid of it.

[PeterUK]

BlessedBovine,
"So what if Val-a-rie was working on Iran. Bad dye job = don't indict Karl. C'mon media - wake up!"

She didn't need a "dye job",this is Iran she would wear a Burqa,although the absence of a fatwa indicates that it wasn't Iran.

[Javani]

Rove should be indicted for his utter incompetence in failing to define Joe Wilson as a Kerry campaign adviser at the time of the NYT article. When did Rove find out and why did he not act? Why isn't Joe introduced as ""former Kerry Advisor?" He's a greatly overrated talent, his victories more due to his opponents incompetence. Since few admit their incompetence his opponents fantasize great powers to Rove.

Wilson should be given a medal for his skills in hedging and lying, for example his "sought/bought" spin. He must have been a great diplomat with that ability for double-talk and sophistry.

[Kate]

I also think Rove is overrated. Actually, I can't understand how close 2004 was, Bush should have won by 7 points.

And, one could trace the deterioraion of Bush's second term directly to Rove's promotion to policy guru.

He's a good national campaign strategist though. However, he was part of the White House horrible communications efforts.

[Sue]

That has been my beef with the whole sliming of a whistleblower. They sure failed miserably, if they were indeed tasked to take him down.

[Jane]

I'd be surprised if Rove gets indicted. Fitzy is hanging on to his reputation as is, and I can't believe he is so isolated that he doesn't know that.

[Javani]

"Plame working on Iran. Operation Blown."

Yes and B.S. Plame working on Iran? Shocking...but they all work on Iran in the WMD area I would think. What "operation?" She's an office analyst. An "operation" working on Iran would take place in Iran, Pak or Russia.

I could be wrong, but "raw story" may try to concoct the "damage" part of UGO's leak. Fitz not charging on the leak pretty much tells me there was no "damage".

[Sue]

I think Fitzgerald is going to indict Rove and Libby on conspiracy.

[topsecretk9]

"So what if Val-a-rie was working on Iran. Bad dye job = don't indict Karl. C'mon media - wake up!"

Gee, I just can't believe the CIA just up and abandoned an entire Iran nuke operation because the name of an agent -- not revealed in association in this program---(well, with their track record...maybe I can) but since the operation of Iran spying is still in most surely in existence, will you please tell your sources they suck too--- had it not been for their big blabber mouths and intense need to justify Valerie's existence they just harmed sources and methods national security...good work.

Seriously though, are we really supposed to believe Valerie Plame was the single and solitary resource devoted and capable of this operation at the CIA? If true, as AJ points out, their 40 years of getting nothing right makes sense.

[Kate]

Conspiracy to do what. All the questioning of Rove on Wednesday centered around process questions, his story vs Cooper's. Libby had nothing to do with that.

[CaseyL]

MSNBC just confirmed Schuster's story: Plame was working on Iran's nuclear development program when she was outed. When Plame was outed, her network was blown. That means the Bush Admin destroyed an intel operation that was tracking Iran's nuclear program.

When y'all are done dismissing Schuster's story, and the MSNBC's confirmation, I guess you can have fun explaining why blowing the op that was tracking Iran's nuclear program isn't really such a big deal.

Or maybe you can amuse yourselves by explaining how we don't really need to know much about Iran's nuclear development program since your hero George Bush is gonna blow it all up anyway, and the last thing he needs if he's gonna bomb the shit out of Iran is verifiable information about what it is he's bombing.

I just love the snap-crackle-pop of wingnut brains fryin' in their own toxic grease.

C'mon, kids, make Mommy proud. Let's hear that snap-crackle-pop.

[topsecretk9]

I could be wrong, but "raw story" may try to concoct the "damage" part of UGO's leak. Fitz not charging on the leak pretty much tells me there was no "damage".

I guess word that Walton ordered, and then Fitz had to turn over the CIA referral letter might make some edgy enough to try and justify existence.

[Kate]

No, that's Schuster (who works for MSNBC) being quoted by Raw Story as confirming an old story they published. That's like Curly confirmng Larry. It's nonsense.

Of course, if Val hadn't been outed by Karl & Libby. She would have flown over to Iran on her magic carpet and single handedly disarmed Iran, there would be peace in the land all due to Val, and now look!!!

[Jane]

The person who leaked the story about Plame and Iran should be indicted immediately!

[Sue]

Who was working on the Iran's nuclear development program while Val was having twins and suffering from PPD?

[Javani]

"When y'all are done dismissing Schuster's story, and the MSNBC's confirmation"

Plame the "managerial type" running a "network?" Haha. Yeah I'll dismiss it because then Joe Wilson outed her. He leaks his identity then writes expressly about his CIA operation to Niger about WMD? What you think happened, that all the intel agencies of the world did NOT pull out their Who's Who in America to read up about Joe, who they probably forgot about after he left the Clinton NSC? Lookee there, he got married to Valerie Plame! 2+2=? And if there are any doubts, Joe provides a photo in Vanity Fair!

The Wilson affair and the McCarthy affair telegraphed to our friends we can't be trusted to keep secrets shared.

[Sue]

Kate,

A hunch. Nothing more. Fitzgerald believs they conspired to harm Joe Wilson and they don't call him bulldog for nothing.

[topsecretk9]

Wonder why none of the press did anything on Walton ordering Fitz to turn over the referral letter?

[Kate]

Woodward has the best sources in the Agency and he said that there was no damage. This sounds like LJ (who is a Raw Story source) making stuff up.

Also, this is probably leaked to correspond to Val's debut the other night. Need to get tings interesting. Interviews, 60 minutes, books, interviews and BTW who will play her in the movie?

[Jim E.]

ts9,
Does the defense have the referral letter now? Or is just Walton reviewing it?

[Javani]

"Who was working on the Iran's nuclear development program while Val was having twins and suffering from PPD?"

That was her cover story because no one would believe a woman in those states would be running a network Network in Iran or Pak, putting aside the whole thing she's working in Washington D.C. Very, very clever!

[Kate]

Sue, harming Joe Wilson is not a crime, as a matter of fact, in my book it's a good thing.

Fitz could come up with a conspriacy to cover up or not tell the truth, good luck with that.

[Redwould]

The mighty Casey strikes out again. Next time, lay off the sauce. Schuster is still bitter about Fox News canning him for his crummy reporting. Now MSNBC's 4 viewers must suffer through his "reporting".

[Tom Maguire]

if Special Counsel Fitzgerald is seriously inclined to indict Rove (which I think he is)

Tom: are you predicting an indictment, or are you thinking that Fitzgerald naturally leans that direction,

Hmm, any ambiguity is indicative of a sub-conscious rebellion.

I think that based on what we have seen so far the case will be absurdly weak, but Fitzgerald will bring it.

As to Shuster and Matthews 'confirming" Raw Story - please. First, it wasn't that long ago that Tweety-bird was the object of boycott talks and the like from the fickle left.

Second, congrats to Shuster for finally finding the same weasels who put out that story for Lisa Russkie. Why not just name Larry Johnson, give us all a good laugh, and be done with it?

I'll hold out for a real reporter confirming it, thanks.

And on that subject, since Andrea Mitchell, Bob Woodward, and (IIRC) Nick Kristof said that their sources said there was no real damage done by the leak, who should I believe?

[Lew Clark]

OK,
Let me see if I get this straight. There was one, and probably only one, analyst at Langley working on Iran's nuclear program. Iran never dreamed they would have such a person doing such a thing. Then the White House cabal outs her to the world. There is an analyst working at Langley on WMD's and her name is Valerie Plame. The word gets back to Tehran. In a secret meeting of the highest of the high in Iran the shock is evident. The U.S. has assigned an analyst to analyze us. And it's Plame, and she's good. All hell breaks lose. Any chance of stopping Iran from blowing up the world is over. We had one hope! It was Val! She's gone! Kiss your ass goodbye!

[Dave in W-S]

I just love the snap-crackle-pop of wingnut brains fryin' in their own toxic grease.

Makes it real convenient for you. Kind of like listening to your own thoughts, except...

[Squiggler]

I think Fitzgerald is going to indict Rove and Libby on conspiracy.

What, conspiracy to make Fitz look foolish?

[Jim E.]

TM wrote: "I think that based on what we have seen so far the case will be absurdly weak, but Fitzgerald will bring it."

Just so we can all adjust our calibrations accordingly, can you rate the strength of the case against Libby?

[PeterUK]

"MSNBC just confirmed Schuster's story: Plame was working on Iran's nuclear development program when she was outed. When Plame was outed, her network was blown."

In which case she was an incompetant case officer making personal contact with her operatives in Iran,isn't done that way Casey lad.Besides Val was outed years ago by Aldrich Ames and a bungle by the CIA itself sending her files to Cuba.

"That means the Bush Admin destroyed an intel operation that was tracking Iran's nuclear program."
Not to worry Casey Lad,everyone is watching Iran,satellites ,humint,electronic evesdropping,plain old snooping about,the US,UK,Israel,France,so there there dont fret the big people are looking after you.Go back to your bong,you are quite safe,

[topsecretk9]

Jim E
I think you know that it is "is just Walton reviewing it" but on the off chance you are being sincere, to my knowledge it "is just Walton reviewing it"

[Syl]

MSNBC just confirmed Schuster's story

This is hilarious! MSNBC and Schuster are the same thing, touting the same story. That's not confirmation!

[Jim E.]

ts9,
It was a sincere question. I thought there might have been a new development or something.

[Syl]

Okay, if we're waiting for a bombshell inoculating leak, this may be it!

Outing Plame BAD!

UGO indicted!

[clarice]

VIPers to vipers.

[PeterUK]

"George Bush is gonna blow it all up anyway, and the last thing he needs if he's gonna bomb the shit out of Iran is verifiable information about what it is he's bombing."

This is at such odds with reality,of course verifiable targets are needed,save the embarrassment of bombing asprin factories.The whole idea Casey lad is to take out Iran's nuclear weapons sites,knowing where they are is exactly what is needed,

[Keith]

TM said: I think that based on what we have seen so far the case will be absurdly weak, but Fitzgerald will bring it.

I hope you're wrong, but I worry that you're right. The thing that made me think that an indictment is near is that the testimony was all about Cooper. If that's true, then Fitzgerald is still trying to figure out if Rove lied or not--and if that issue is still on the table, then things aren't looking good for Karl.

On the other hand, I remember that after Luskin's last minute appeal to Fitzgerald at the end of October, the word was that the Novak-meeting story wasn't the only--or even the main--piece of evidence that was used to keep Fitzgerald from indicting. If that's true, there may be more reasons to not indict Rove than we know now.

And I wonder: why would Luskin send Rove in if he thought an indictment was likely? There are many reasons that Fitzgerald might have wanted to call Rove in, but there aren't many reasons why Luskin would let Rove go if he didn't think he could save himself. So there was still hope, at least prior to the testimony. If there isn't hope now, then Rove had his chance and couldn't seal the deal.

I try to put a positive spin on the possibility of an indictment and say that Fitzgerald isn't absurd enough to press a weak case knowing the public relations consequences on all sides, but the Libby case has demonstrated to me that he is willing to do just that.

As far as Bush is concerned, I don't think that the damage to the administration would be too great on a public relations level. This story has played out for three years, and it's not going to come as a shock that will cause people to think differently than they already do about the administration. The press will howl, and the left will gloat, but I'm not sure the votes will change dramatically one way or the other because of this.

[Cecil Turner]

I think that based on what we have seen so far the case will be absurdly weak, but Fitzgerald will bring it.

I do, too. The Libby case is only sensible if he's working from a theory that assumes Administration evil-doers at the heart of the leak. The consistent bent of his public statements suggests that's exactly what he's thinking, and it is reinforced by his background. The only down side is that he's using the open investigation to forestall some of Libby's discovery, but that's a relatively minor consideration. His biggest leverage is that Rove is fired if indicted, and I'd bet he pulls the trigger.

And considering the CIA's marvelous work on Iraq, I'm having a hard time seeing Val being pulled from the Iranian case as anything but a public service. Give UGO a Medal of Freedom (or a gold star in lieu of second award)!

[clarice]

I don't think he will. Drinks on the house from me if he does.

Even Andrew McCarthy's deserted him.

He'll be lucky to get out of the Libby case with his head on.

Come to think of it, now that he's under the "supervision and direction" of the DoJ maybe it's time I filed a complaint with the Office of Professional Responsibility about some of HIS conduct. Let's see him under the investigative spotlight and see how he handles it.
Even when he's trying to be clear, his utterances are pure bafflegab. Let's see how well he does under pressure.

[Other Tom]

I predict indictment purely on the theory of the zealous, ambitious and unprincipled prosecutor. He simply can't wrap this thing up with nothing more than Libby, and a Rove indictment would make him a media darling once again. He's been out of the headlines for too long, and once a zealot has tasted the heady wine of slavish, fawning MSM publicity, reason becomes a detour.

[Squiggler]

I hope you're wrong, but I worry that you're right. The thing that made me think that an indictment is near is that the testimony was all about Cooper. If that's true, then Fitzgerald is still trying to figure out if Rove lied or not--and if that issue is still on the table, then things aren't looking good for Karl.

Maybe its Cooper who isn't looking so good. Why does everyone rely so heavily on Cooper's truthfulness. He's a sleazy reporter, for pete's sake.

[Keith]

Squiggler, that would be pretty ironic. I do think if Rove goes to trial, Cooper is not going to come out in one piece. Rove's lawyers are going to slice him (and Fitzgerald's case) up like a turkey.

Personally, I don't think there's much of a chance Rove is convicted if there's a fair jury to hear him. That's another reason why the indictment, if it happens, is an unnecessary tragedy.

[clarice]

Indeed. And if my spidey sense that V. Novak's multiple conversations with Luskin involved more than repeating over and over that Rove talked to Cooper and branched out into other scuttlebutt in the Time office, Cooper may, in fact, be in trouble.

[Squiggler]

Clarice -- how much talking to Fitz is going on, even informally, regarding the newer leak allegations re: MOM. I know it isn't within the scope of his investigation, but it certainly relates, at least as to players. Would he be up to speed and would someone make him aware of the cross-overs of those same players, i.e. Wilson, Plame, et al.

[Squiggler]

I guess I'm curious about that CIA referral, which, as I understand it, would have come from the CIA IG office. If that referral was signed by MOM, would that make any difference now to how Fitz views his own investigation? And, do you read in to the timing of being willing to turn the referral over to the judge as relating to my first question?

[clarice]

(1) I have no idea what info he's getting:
(2) He turned over the referral letter after saying it was classified ans irrelevant because the judge in a sealed order ordered him to do so. Maybe the Judge is reading the newspapers. Or Libby's brief on discovery where he argues, in effect, there was a conspiracy by people in the DoS and CIA.

[Rick Ballard]

Let's see if I have this right. On T-TH, Secret Agent 0036D worded the Paki-Iran angle (due to her suberb command of Pushtu and Farsi plus her deep knowledge of all aspects of nuclear weapon production) whilst on M-W-F she worked the Iraq-Libya desk (due to her command of Arabic plus her deep knowledge of Sunni tribal links) where she had the opportunity to suggest that her hubby was just the man to explore potential Iraqi-Niger uranium deals due to his ex-wife's connections with COGEMA.

Sounds very logical to me. Throwing everyone off by having twins and feigning post partum depression for a year or two was really suberb tradecraft.

[ghostcat]

Cooper may be over a barrel and unable to jump through the hoops necessary to stave off disaster. (Sorry. Irresistable.)

[Squiggler]

Clarice -- I know you don't really have any idea, I should have prefaced, "in your experience would he be getting" ... thanks though for the answer. I go for the judge saying, whoa boy, what's this I'm reading!

[Rocco]

If Val was working on Iran, why did the CIA allow Wilson to sit down with Kristof for "Missing In Action: Truth" on May 6, 2003? And why did EPIC's bio of Wilson describe her as the former Valerie Plame? Where did Iran get their yellowcake?

[Syl]

Look, Fitz believes Libby lied (and in some ways it sure looks like he may have and I can see why Fitz would think so). That does not mean Fitz believes Rove lied or even lied to the same extent.

What got Libby in trouble was mainly the testimony of three journalists.

Where would we think Rove's testimony and that of someone else may differ significantly? Significantly enough that Fitz would slap an indictment on Rove? All we know of is Cooper and that part seems to be weak.

Is there something else we've not been clued into after all this time? Somebody surely would have leaked something about any Rove vulnerability by now.

[Semanticleo]

"Sounds very logical to me." should be
Ballards epitaph.

He is living proof that god gave us
intelligence so we might fashion crafty
words so that we might excuse the rationale
for what we've already decided to do.

Then there's this; "Let's see if I have this right. On T-TH, Secret Agent 0036D worded the Paki-Iran angle (due to her suberb command of Pushtu and Farsi plus her deep knowledge of all aspects of nuclear weapon production) whilst on M-W-F she worked the Iraq-Libya desk (due to her command of Arabic plus her deep knowledge of Sunni tribal links) where she had the opportunity to suggest that her hubby was just the man to explore potential Iraqi-Niger uranium deals due to his ex-wife's connections with COGEMA."

Crike! Is there any sort of dodge that can
escape your grasp? Your suppostions are
posited hot air my friend. It's a nice hot
air, but I can get too much of it.

[Semanticleo]

postscript

It's a nice hot
air,

Translated: Readable