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May 01, 2006

Comments

Syl

The word lion is simply confused by Rick's superior mastery of the language. What's not to understand about certain quarters attributing to our Gal Val superhumansleuth powers? What's not to understand about compartmentalization within the CIA? Val would have one specific area of expertise that covered one specific region or one specific activity. Not 'all WMD', not 'ALL THINGS NUCLEAR', not 'ALL hostile countries'.


Sue

Kate,

The biggest injustice in all of this has been Wilson not being charged for his lies. Of course, no one bothered to put him under oath but the SSCI and then he was allowed a do-over. I think Fitzgerald will indict for something. The conspiracy is pure hunch. For what? I have no idea. A conspiracy to lie? A conspiracy to kick sand in his eyes? I think he thinks they were conspiring to commit a crime and if he can't get them on the conspiracy to commit a crime he will look to what the law should say. Just as he said at the high school recently.

Sue

Clarice,

I just read your post at AJ's. I had forgotten about the story of Clinton giving flawed nuclear technology to Iran, through Russia.

clarice

We should demolish the place .

maryrose

I'm sticking to my guns on this one,I think Rove is in the clear. He's a bridge too far for Fitz though I do think Fitz would love the media attention. Gonzalez should step in any time now and banish these media hogs.

Tom Maguire

A very fair question from Jim E:

Just so we can all adjust our calibrations accordingly, can you rate the strength of the case against Libby?

Well, the Libby case is a bit light on motive and materiality, but Fitzgerald has two reporters (Miller, Cooper) saying Libby did *not* source his leaks to reporters, and Libby saying he did.

And he has Russert saying he did not tell Libby about Plame, and Libby disagreeing.

So I think on the raw factual disputes, Libby is in trouble. Whether it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" trouble, I don't know.

I think Miller will be a miserable witness, Cooper may not be that good, and Russert's story is, on a stand-alone basis, almost as odd as Libby's - apparently, Libby called to complain about Chris Matthews coverage (confirmed by court filings) of the Wilson trip to Niger (IIRC, that is still speculative, but very solid), yet Russert and Libby did not discuss Wilson or Plame.

Why didn't they discuss Wilson and the real impetus of his trip, since that was what Libby was complaining about? Who knows? And the rest of Russert's story will be that he did not know about Plame, but how can he prove a negative?

Well - the case against Rove is not even he-said / he said. Rove claims he forgot about Cooper, the phone log error was one of those things, the email to Hadley got lost for no apparent reason, Libby originally claimed to be Cooepr's initial source due to his bad memory - coincidences abound.

But proving they are not coincidences, and that Cooper was unforgettable?

The phone log will elict tedious testimony about the switchboard operation, and will be inconclusive.

The email testimony will be technical baffle-gab that will be way over the head of the typical juror (and me).

As to the importance of Cooper - my favorite factoid is that the DoJ forgot to ask about Cooper in their first round of document requests - I would toss that in their face every five minutes.

And a missing piece of the puzzle is how Rove learned about Ms. Plame. If all Fitzgerald has is that Rove heard it from Libby, well, Libby has said that he didn't know she was classified and Fitzgerald did not indict him for perjury for it, so presumably he can't prove Libby *did* know she was classified. In which case, Rove too can argue that he had no reason to lie, since he had no exposure under the IIPA due to his ignorance of her classified status.

Anyway, this case will be weaker than the case against Libby.

But I think Fitzgerald has decided that Rove is a key bad guy in this drama, and wants to serve justice upon him.

Sue

Kate,

This is my theory on what Fitzgerald thinks...theory only...

Fitzgerald believes Libby was steering him away from Rove (sand in the eyes) and that is why he lied (if he did) about his conversation with Cooper (he told Cooper not Cooper told him). That is why I think he will get them on conspiracy. Conspiring to lie about Rove's involvement.

I could be wrong. In fact, it won't be the first time I was wrong. ::grin::

Squiggler

The start of McRanger's newest post:

A couple of more weird job thoughts. (1) Could you go into a retirement community and have a class on setting up web pages and bulletin boards? Perhaps link it to 'SeniorPal' as some kind of gateway to these other sites? Would a class of 10 at $50 each lead to word of mouth and follow up support calls for $50 an hour? I have a Sun City community about 5 miles from my house - I swear there are a lot of seniors with time and money to burn (2) on-line taxes - I know the window is closed for this year - but turbo-tax is a breeze for cranking out tax-forms. Again, in a retirement community, could you make money cranking out tax forms next year? (I have a million of them - most not worth bothering with - as I'm sure you know by now)
Squiggler

Good grief, I have no idea where that came from ... it should read:

Rule one - Rawstory is a Drudge Report wannabe gossip rag.

Rule two - David Schuster is a pathological liar. See here.

Now on to the story which AJ Strata emailed me on, and he covers here.

"You would think the CIA insiders would know better than to leak more national security information to the media. But looks like another attempt by the shadow CIA and the Wilsons to play games:

On Chris Matthews’ Hardball Monday evening, just moments ago, MSNBC correspondent David Shuster confirmed what RAW STORY first reported in February: that outed CIA officer Valerie Plame Wilson was working on Iran at the time she was outed.

According to current and former intelligence officials, Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran."

I called - the story is false. This crap has been floating around since February - it was crap then, it's really crap now. In fact it's downright laugable.

Especially since Plame couldnt find her ass in a closet with a flashlight along with the rest of the dolts in NPO reference to intel on Iraq WMD prior to the invasion.

Semanticleo

Fitzgerald has decided that Rove is a key bad guy

bingo

JJ

I continue to get stuck on the obvious.

There may be good explanations for all the trails that baffle in this case.

But standing above all the possibilities of good explanations is the wild reporting of David Shuster.

Is that journalism??!!! It's tabloid stuff.

There may be some truth in the Bat Boy stories of grocery store checkout news, but it's only a grain spun into a bigger weave.

Same with Shuster and Plame and all of Shuster's other missteps. And -- I cannot watch Countdown anymore either! Not even to try and critique where those people are coming from.

The most amazing thing about all this from a historical perspective is the amount of smoke that has blown over this story, as many have noted above. It will probably be studied in years to come with the same shock as the McCarthy hearings of the 50s, simply because of the weirdness of the whole thing.

Nice comments, Patton.

My obvious burning question now is: Did Fitz reopen with another GJ because of Woodward? I thought so, but now -- especially as you read emptywheel's take and its associated comments – it may be that Fitz is just playing his many cards in a selected order in order to stink out the rats as he may?

While I never underestimate the deceptiveness of lawyers if Fitz is doing it emptywheel's way, the cost of this investigation in real dollar and public trust is totally absurd.

And before even trying to parse all the other blind trails and false leads as emptywheelers especially do, I still conclude that Plame's identity was essentially known by many people in Washington.

It's a two-mirror. Those behind the glass looking out at the general public scratching their heads into baldness, must be getting a little nervous now. Either that or they are as lost in confusion as many speculators now are, media and blog.

My conclusion is that don't make conclusions until you have some facts. Sorry, Glenn Greenwald.

But, hey, it's still great fun to speculate as long as you don't take yourself too seriously (ahem, reality-based community).

Keith

But I think Fitzgerald has decided that Rove is a key bad guy in this drama, and wants to serve justice upon him.

How sad, if true--to indict an aide to a sitting President on a weak case just because you're convinced that he's a bad guy, knowing the damage and controversy that it will cause to an already down-on-itself nation. That's an abuse of trust.

Fitzgerald will get embarrassed in court, if that's the case and there's a fair jury.

ghostcat

A fair jury for a member of Team Bush in DC? It could happen, but not at random.

Sue

LOL. Over at Scary Larry's http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/05/delusional_at_t.html#comments>site he takes on Jed Babbin's http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9751>article.

Larry says "You know you are scoring body blows against the rightwing crazies when they send Jed Babbin after you."

Oh the irony. You know Babbin is scoring body blows when Larry is forced to respond. Go read it. I promise it is worth the laughs. ::grin::

clarice

This was rich:
"After being told by several reporters that Mary had been working in the Inspector Generals office, I did something that the American Spectator writers ought to try--I sat down and did some reflective, analytical thinking. Using something called logic, I was able to point out that Mary's lack of service on the clandestine side of the CIA meant that she was really not in a position to know much about secret prisons unless the issue was being investigated"

Maybe he can do some more reflective, analytical thinking and figure out who hired McCarthy for the IG's office.

Syl

I was able to point out that Mary's lack of service on the clandestine side of the CIA meant that she was really not in a position to know much about secret prisons unless the issue was being investigated

And his analytical thinking would then lead him to conclude, that CIA operations have no supervision at all since it's impossible for anyone not involved in the operation to even know enough to supervise.

Therefore, it is not possible for an investigation to even be initialized.

Sue

Clarice,

He didn't even begin to say that until he saw it in a newspaper. I mentioned it first on his site to Bob and the next day he had deleted the post. Analytical, logic, and thinking are not 3 words you would use in the same sentence with the name Larry Johnson. He has no original thoughts. Except for moron and bitch and even those aren't original.

Ralph

OT but related, I HOPE,

Clarice,

This is a long shot, and I'm NOT suggesting that Libby and his team would do it, but IF, as appears to be the case, Fitz is basing his actions on the "justice" of punishing some one who is attempting to punish a whistleblower,even though that's not a crime in the statutes, are there potential grounds --- I'm not saying strong grounds --- for attacking him as a prosecutor who is attempting to usurp the constitutional authority of the Legislative Branch. There is, as far as I know, NOTHING in our system that suggests that prosecutors have the right to create the law.

I grant that are shades of gray in this, but while those on the left like to bring up Al Capone being stopped because of tax evasion, the FACT is that he did committ that crime.

In this case, it appears that Fitz is going well beyond that and trying to punish Libby for actions that Fits thinks should be a crime.

I'm trying to phrase this question to keep it separate from the issue of whether or not it would be good tactics for Libby and his team.

Feel free to email me directly for any clarification so that any discussion you MAY be willing to engage in does tie up everyone's time until we're sure that my question makes the barest minimum of sense.

Thanks again to everyone for a very thought provoking discussion.

All the Best,


Ralph

Ralph

Somewhat OT Clarification and Apology,

While I addressed my question to Clarice, I'd welcome comments from all of you, but intitially from those, attorneys and others, with knowledge of the legal issues involved.

Thanks yet again for all of the thought provoking discussions.

All the Best,

Ralph

Syl

Scratch my previous comment. It was just plain dumb.

owl

Fitzgerald has decided that Rove is a key bad guy

bingo

And he had a lot of help to get there with their nest at MSNBC. Consider it like a 24/7 burner that keeps all the CIA/Dem/MSM attacks at a good slow simmer. Matthews inspired Libby to call Russert. Matthews called Wilson with "fair game".

Now MSNBC's 4 viewers must suffer through his "reporting".

Nope it's down to 3. I quit. I did my civic duty and watched that crap for all these years because someone should be watching the enemy. There's method to their madness and they follow a pattern. Scary stuff the way they can repeat a LIE over and over until it takes on a life.

Fitz or more likely the investigators surely had their ears overflowing with this crap.

Fitz's pressor...since he repeated the criminals' tale like it was gospel....how can he get out of it without another indictment? We shall soon know if he is an honest man because he HAS to know the CIA/DNC/MSM patterns of attack and who sleeps in all those beds.

Woodward? Dunno..wild card.

Neo

Having secured bipartisan distrust, Fitz's career at DOJ is already toast, so he has nothing to lose with an indictment, even if it is of a "ham sandwich."

clarice

Ralph, I don't know how to do that. Victori Toensing has said he has a reputation for being inappropriately "creative" with the law. Here's what's wrong with creating new law...aside from the fact that that is the business of the legislature:People are entitled to reasonable notice of what is legal and what is not. If suddenly, pushing back against lying political enemies is now against the law, this whole town should know it because it is the leitmotif of Washington.

Rick Ballard

"It was just plain dumb."

Hey, no poaching. That's my territory and I've got the homestead papers to prove it.

clarice

B>S>, Rick, you've no greater claim to that than anyone else.Actually, a much smaller claim.

ordi

I have not read this entire thread so forgive me if this post is way off base. NOTE: This is a ONLY a theory.

We all realize that this is a big and dangerous chess game that is being played. My theory is that this recent Rawstory/Shuster story as another pawn being played by Larry and his VIP friends.

In their view it does two things.

1) It gives the public the illusion that Libby/Rove damaged NS. Which helps Fitz. (Not that he is on it)

2) It puts out the "they did it too"/"The WH are hypocrits on Gov secerts" meme. Which helps MoM.

Also, Is it possible C Powell is in the disinformation business for the WH. Powell is a soldier at heart so I can see him being disloyal to the USA. I can see him wanting to get even with the French for what they did at the UN to him, so I can see him playing along to catch the jerks that embrassed him on the world stage.

Any thoughts?

cathyf
Rove should be indicted for his utter incompetence in failing to define Joe Wilson as a Kerry campaign adviser at the time of the NYT article. When did Rove find out and why did he not act? Why isn't Joe introduced as ""former Kerry Advisor?" He's a greatly overrated talent, his victories more due to his opponents incompetence.
I gotta say you've got a point here. I mean whose brilliant idea was it to push back by giving Judy Miller an exclusive scoop on the NIE a week before everybody else? She didn't publish because she didn't recognize that there was anything newly declassified from the previous partial declassify.

I mean who was the brain trust that thought Ms Run Amok Whose Dog Ate Her Notebook was the right person for this job? They make even the total f***ups at the CIA look almost competent! Can you imagine if there was a smear campaign with Miller as the pointwoman? She would have written that Victoria Flame from the Bureau of Land Management sent her husband Jim Watson to Nigeria to check out bluepie sales...

cathy :-)

clarice

I think Powell said the kind of thing he's been whispering all along to reporters not expecting it would get this kind of coverage and backtracked a bit today when the story took off.

I think Raw Story is just doing what is does to poison the well.And maybe to try to help MOM.

I think Shuster is an idiot who like the rest of MSNBC realizes its only audience is moonbats to whom it must cater to stay alive.

ordi

This seems to be another RETREADED Story. Cute little Larisa's story from Feb 13 06.

Outed CIA officer was working on Iran, intelligence sources say

The unmasking of covert CIA officer Valerie Plame Wilson by White House officials in 2003 caused significant damage to U.S. national security and its ability to counter nuclear proliferation abroad, RAW STORY has learned.

According to current and former intelligence officials, Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.


http://www.rawstory.com/news/2005/Outed_CIA_officer_was_working_on_0213.html

Like I said I am not completely thru this thread so forgive me if this has been noted already.

Squiggler

I posted this link earlier, but here it is again ...

MacRanger on Plame/Schuster/Raw Story

But rest assured David Schuster wouldn't be let into Langley to use the toilet. So he wouldn't have a clue.

I told you that you would begin to see some crazy stuff coming out of the rat holes and this is only the beginning. But trust me, neither Schuster, Raw Story or the socialist muckraker Larisa Alexandrovna (associate of George Soros) know what in the hell they are talking about.

larwyn

Wow, it seems to hit all of us at the same time. Thought I was becomming a slacker. But after I actually stayed tune to the entire Bill Maher show on Friday and then caught the beginning of Olberman - I just lost it.
When I saw Durbin's face on Sunday, I just couldn't do it.
I've just been reading and spent weekend making sure everyone might read the great posts up by Varifranks, OneCosmos, Vanderleun,Shrinkwrapped and Dinocrat on United 93. And hoping all would get to see GW/alter ego routine.
MSNBC & CNN have no new tricks, we know them all now. So it is possible to fly by catch a few sentences and we know just where they are going or where they have been.
I know I'll have to go back - this midterm is too important, and I want to see if the Pubs are going to take their damn little blue pills and stand up, finally.

On Colin - he's the one that screwed it up by not securing the second front thru Turkey. Like a
"spoiler" that he is. Someone said he tried to sell Bush's plan to "allies" with raised eyebrows and head shrugs.
Ironic that with the Vile Pin and l'Checroc scandal breaking, if Colin could have controlled his envy of the bang up job Condi is doing, we would have celebrated with him.
My evidence for his behavior is the character of the closest deputies.
And doesn't anyone else recall that the gossip was that Colin was going to run for President as a DEM!
He should have stayed low profile for a few more years. There is no more shine on Colin, IMHO.

My lord, I did an entire post without a tag - I am a slacker.

topsecretk9

Clarice...

Check your email.

Syl

Iran is just a mite too convenient, isn't it?

Throw the names of the countries about which we are concerned re WMD movement and technology into a hat and pull them out one-by-one. Evaluate. Throw away. Pick another until it would be something currently in the minds of Americans then claim or plant a false leak. What do you get?

Libya: Oops, no longer a worry
Iraq: Oops, same thing
North Korea: no news lately
Russia: Always a thorn, but not big enough
China: People aren't worried about China Yet
Africa: Too amorphous
Pakistan: old news
India: Friendlies
Iran: Bingo!

Anyway, it's been THREE YEARS. Do you think the CIA never found a replacement even if it's true?

clarice

How could you replace someone with such a gift for finding men of character and intelligence?

clarice

BTW , though it has been in all the papers in Europe I don't recall seeing a single US paper reporting on the Clearstream scandal in France where de Villepin is accused of forging evidence against Sarkozy. The Intl Herald Tribune reports tonight that there is mounting pressure for Villepin's resignation.

MayBee

How could you replace someone with such a gift for finding men of character and intelligence?

A beautiful blonde that has such a gift? Sounds like a good female spy to me. Put her in a bikini on some Sheik's yacht and let her work her magic. She's going to write a book "Three Dates with a Sheik:How to get them to expose their Weapons of Mass Destruction"

larwyn

Maybee,
There was a song in the early 70's
"Midnight at the Oasis"
That would fit perfectly.
Hopefully, I'll remember some lyrics by morning.

clarice

Libby has made a long filing tonight on the media subpoenas. I started on them thanks to TS but it is almost 3 a.m. here and I have to get some sleep. Some bombshells, including this--even in her redacted ntoes whic they gave Libby , she had Wilson's name and phone number in her notes well before she spoke to Libby on June 23.. and lots of evidence she spoke to others and got Val's name then.

ordi

Midnight at the Oasis
Sing your camel to bed


ordi

clarice

I was not singing you to bed but have a great nap! Lokking forward to hear what you find tomorrow.

topsecretk9

Clarice

this too

I love that the NYT's page 22 in footnote (6) on that page,

"NYT's contest the request as too overboard, claiming that it would encompass even the Wilson's engagement of weeding announcement...Counsel for Libby informed George Freeman, general counsel NYT's, that request 1 and 2 are limited to documents from or after January 1, 2003. Because the Wilsons were married in sometime 1998, an announcement of that even need not be produced.

HAHAHA

WIlson and the former Valerie Plame were married. on the afternoon...filet mignon and sweet mint tea...blah, blah, blah

topsecretk9

an announcement of that evenT need not be produced.

Squiggler

And how many times have I asked when they got married and who was at the wedding ... let's see, we don't want anyone to know ol' Val's a super secret spymistress, so hey, let's put our wedding announcement in the NYT. No wonder Andrea said, "everyone knew" --- me laughing with Clarice HAHAHAHAHa

Kate

Sue: thanks for the clarification. If Fitz indicts Rove he'll have 2 and that is a precondition for any conspiracy. Fitz history is that he likes conspiracy charges, so he may throw one out there.

It seems that we can totally discount Leopold, Schuster, and Raw Story since they now share the same source--Larry Johnson. No respectable source in Rove, Libby or Fitz' camp will talk to them. I also don't trust Jim VanDeiHei's reporting so we will get the facts from the New York Times or Waas. Bryan York has good souces in Rove's camp as does Brit Hume.

2006 is well on its way to be being known as the Year of the Out of Control Prosecutor.

Kate

One more thought on Schuster: last week he was spreading the story that Rove is gloomy, Rove is nervous. Since we know that no one in Rove's camp talks to Schuster, does Schuster borrow other sources, or rely on Johnson for its sense of the mood in Camp Rove. I'm really questioning his journalistic ethics.

On possible Rove indictment: I doubt many conservatives or Republicans are expecting it. Many will be shocked, dismayed and disgusted. It may be the bottoming out of the Bush decline. As the operative word for the day: blowback.

MayBee

You are right, Kate, about the Shuster and the gloomy reports. Who is he talking to? Who do Leopold and Waas talk to? Someone telling them what they want to hear.

hrtshpdbox

Maybe I'm confused about this, so please square me away if so, but isn't Powell the main culprit for everything that's led up to the "Bush lied, there was no WMD" mantra going around today? In other words, Bush said after 9/11 that we would fight terrorism everywhere we found it, and Saddam certainly qualified - by paying families of Palestinian suicide bombers, just as one example. But Powell wanted to do things the "right" (i.e. UN) way, he fell for the assurances from the French and others that they'd vote with the US at the UN, and he led Bush down that path. The only greivance we could cite at the UN was WMD, so the whole debate about why we should topple Saddam was couched in WMD terms - every other solid reason to get rid of Saddam fell by the wayside in public discourse.

ordi

Squiggler,

Do you know of a place that has NYT achieved. We could send someone to find the Wedding annoucement. IIRC someone found the picture in the paper of the 99 State Dinner with her name printed in the paper.

Hey does any one have a link to the state dinner annoucement?

PeterUK

"I grant that are shades of gray in this, but while those on the left like to bring up Al Capone being stopped because of tax evasion, the FACT is that he did committ that crime."

The crucial difference is that,in the case of Capone the charge was not suddenly shifted during the investigation from pimping to tax evasion.
Investigators used tax evasion from the outset.

Dwilkers

Man. I hope you're wrong TM, at least that Fitz is going to attempt to indict Rove.

If Rove gets indicted for the Cooper thing that will be WAY over the line. If Fitz does that he better have some solid proof, like 3 witnesses testifying that Rove knew, didn't forget and was running around laughing about it, or proof that he was trying to delete the e-mails or something similar.

Jeez man Cooper has admitted in print that HE doesn't remember it very well.

This isn't even about prosecutorial discretion. Fitz better have PROOF that Rove was deliberately lying and not just a he said she said type thing and that the lie was a deliberate attempt to undermine the investigation. Otherwise it is prosecution run amok, it would be outrageous.

PeterUK

" Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran."

Iran has hardly been coy about acquiring nuclear weapons,more in your face" come and get me copper".All the major intelligence agencies knew exactly what Iran was doing,it is stopping it which is the problem.
As for tracking it,there are umpteen satellite pictures of the nuclear sites in Iran,there is no myetery here,just a political conundrum.
Incidentally,where did Plame learn her non-proliferation skills,North Korea,Pakistan,Dr Khan?

kim

So, C, maybe the 'Flame' was not a mistake.
===========================

PeterUK

"Put her in a bikini on some Sheik's yacht and let her work her magic."

Sheiks buy blondes,given the status of women in the Middle East,I wouldn't rate her chances.

PeterUK

You have to be fair to Schuster,he did get the "Elvis interview on Mars" scoop.

Squiggler

The comments have probably shifted to the new post on the media filings, but I want to make one last point regarding Rove. This is called using common sense ...

Rove and the President were joined at the hip as Chief of Staff and Prez. If anyone thinks that the Prez made his remarks about the leaks without first discussing the entire situation with Rove, they need their head examined. Rove was more than likely orchestrating how the White House intended to handle bringing on Fitz in the first place. So to think that Rove was surprised by anything is first of all naive. To think that this investigation would have even commenced if Rove was at all culpable is not only naive but very stoooooooooopid. Okay I've had my final say on Rove.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame