Glenn Greenwald's Career In Comedy

Glenn Greenwald, who never settles for "shrill" when "hysterical ranting" is within reach, tells the world that Jason Zengerle *might* have fabricated an email from Steven Gilliard when he wrote this post. [UPDATE:  I respond to Greenwald's follow-up gas-letting here.  Hint - my title is "What Would A Weasel Do", and it is emphatically *not* autobiographical.]

However - it is only in an UPDATE that Mr. Greenwald finally presents some highly relevant information:  Mr. Zengerle excerpted THREE emails, including one from Mr. Greenwald himself; and Mr. Greenwald confirms the authenticity of two of them, including his own.  That UPDATE sort of undermines the high dudgeon on display here in the original Greenwald post:

What makes this all the more disturbing is Zengerle's claim that he was "re-print[ing] some of the e-mails that were going to the 'Townhouse' list, according to three sources . . . " It is difficult to see how Zengerle's claim about his sources could be true, to put it generously. It is highly unlikely (to put it mildly) that three different sources would send Zengerle the same fabricated e-mail and falsely tell him that it was sent by Gilliard to the Townhouse list. And it is equally unlikely that three different sources would confirm that Gilliard sent an e-mail that he, in fact, simply never sent.

I would say that those additional facts are quite pertinent - Mr. Greenwald's more complete hypothesis seems to be that Mr. Zengerle had two genuine emails and fabricated a third.  Somehow that seems to change the balance of probabilities a bit, especially since the "fake" email makes the same point as the two authentic ones - why, one might wonder, would Mr. Zengerle bother to gild the lily with a fake email supporting two real ones?  And does it seem "highly unlikely (to put it mildly)" that Zengerle would have three sources confirming two genuine and one fake email?

I would think that if he wanted to allude to the possibility of dishonest behavior by Mr. Zengerle, Mr. Greenwald would take extra care to be honest himself.  Oh, well - perhaps subsequent UPDATES will offer even more illumination.

MORE:  Absurd squirming by Mr. Greenwald in the comments:

(4) I don't actually think the Gilliard e-mail is irrelevant. Even though it is shorter than the other two which Zengerle published, the fake Gilliard e-mail is really the ONLY one which bolsters Zengerle's point (namely - that bloggers wanted to write about this issue but then didn't when Markos requested silence). The first two e-mails (including mine) simply make the point that Jerome should himself respond to these charges because only he can.

Uh huh.  I would say that the email cited by Mr. Zengerle (in an earlier post) as having come from the Kos himself makes the point even more clearly:

This story will percolate in wingnut circles until then, but I haven't gotten a single serious media call about it yet. Not one. So far, this story isn't making the jump to the traditional media, and we shouldn't do anything to help make that happen.

My request to you guys is that you ignore this for now. It would make my life easier if we can confine the story.

So the current Greenwald hypothesis is what - no one has disputed the Kos email, but Mr. Zengerle fabricated the Gilliard email a day later in order to buttress it?

What a tangled web we weave.

UPDATE:  Jason Zengerle rejoins the discussion on Sunday evening, telling us that there is a logical explanation but he has no idea what it is.  Oh, he does a bit better than that:

Steve Gilliard claims that he did not write the email I attributed to him in this post. After doing some further investigating, I'm afraid to say that he is correct. He did not write that email. I apologize to Gilliard for not checking with him before publishing my post, and I regret the error.

 

Here's how the error happened: A source forwarded The New Republic three emails purportedly written by members of the "Townhouse" list--Glenn Greenwald, Mike Stark, and Steve Gilliard--expressing concern about the Armstrong-SEC story. The emails lacked timestamps and headers, so TNR checked the emails with two other sources who belonged to "Townhouse." Both of these sources vouched for the authenticity of all three emails (and two of the emails, Greenwald's and Stark's, are indisputably authentic). After returning to these two sources this weekend, TNR learned that when initially shown the three emails, both sources immediately recognized the 181-word Greenwald email and the 389-word Stark email; having determined that those two emails were authentic, the sources just assumed the 22-word Gilliard email was authentic, as well. We now know it wasn't. These were clearly honest mistakes on the parts of the second and third sources; and TNR has been unable to determine why the first source--who has not responded to messages--included this one piece of incorrect information along with the accurate information the source sent us. Therefore, I won't abide by Glenn Greenwald's demand to disclose the identities of these sources. If Greenwald thinks that makes me, as he's hyperventilated, "a new Stephen Glass," then he can take that up with my editor Frank Foer, who knows the identities of the sources and has reviewed all the relevant materials they provided.

Mr. Zengerle has kind words for Steve Gilliard:

I sincerely regret not checking with Gilliard before quoting his purported words, not only because this was unfair to Gilliard--who has behaved more responsibly than anyone involved in this particular matter, myself included...

Let me add that I thought Steve Gilliard came across as a stand-up guy in this post, where he explained that he had not written that email to the Townhouse ListServ, but did hold the sentiments expressed therein:

To be fair, I told Glenn I disagreed with the characterization of it being false, because I may have express some kind of sentiment close to that. The issue to me is not that Zengerle created it out of whole cloth, but if he got it from a source that he was too lazy and sloppy to confirm it with me.

...But even if Greenwald goes farther than I would, the question remains why didn't Zengerle do any interviews for his pieces. Why didn't he extend the basic journalism courtesy of asking if these were my words and if they were sending to the Townhouse list? I mean that's basic shit, Reporting I stuff.

...Now, some people may wonder why I didn't hammer Zengerle up and down the blog and call him a bald faced liar.

Let me explain something: presenting something false as something real and attributed to a person is a firing offense. This is not a game, if he was misled by a source; he deserves the chance to prove it. If he just pulled it out of his ass, I expect Frank Foer to fire him.

For myself, the notion that Jason Zengerle cut that email from a whole cloth never made sense.  However, one does hope that his mystery source has an explanation.  If I had to guess (and I don't, but...) I would say that the first source ended up attributing to Gilliard thoughts actually expressed by someone else, perhaps in a different forum.  Still a mistake, but hardly as monumental as the hyperventilating Greenwald wanted to pretend.

But let's pass the mike to Greenwald himself, from his UPDATE III, so that we can be clear about his view:

Let me be as clear as I can be. I re-iterate my statement that the e-mail printed by Zengerle is fake. Scores of individuals on the Townhouse list have confirmed that Gilliard never sent any such e-mail to Townhouse, and Gilliard has said the same thing. He also says he has no record of sending such an e-mail to anyone. Contrary to the claim of Zengarle or his "three sources," it was never sent by Gilliard to the Townhouse list. Thus, what Zengarle reported -- allegedly based on three sources -- is indisptuably false.

The e-mail was simply fabricated by either Zengarle or his sources.

Emphasis added.  At this point, we still don't know how the genesis of the "Gilliard" email.  However, if it was written by someone other than Zengerle or his primary source but misattributed, then I seriously dispute the use of the words "fake" and "fabricated".

Hmm.  We are puzzling over UPDATE IV from Greenwald, which includes this:

I not only look very forward to that moment [when Zengerle addresses this], but also to what I'm certain will be the candid and straightfoward acknowledgments of error by those bloggers and commenters who spent the day giddily claiming that the e-mail was authentic and/or that no basis existed for the claim that it was false. In case it slips their minds, I'll be sure to remind them.

(For non-link-clickers, I am "giddily").

Well, I have no doubt Greenwald will claim vindication regardless of the actual facts as they become available.  However, before he reminds me of his glorious victory, maybe he can remind me of just where it was I said that "the e-mail was authentic and/or that no basis existed for the claim that it was false".

Since what I did say was:

Mr. Zengerle excerpted THREE emails, including one from Mr. Greenwald himself; and Mr. Greenwald confirms the authenticity of two of them, including his own.  That UPDATE sort of undermines the high dudgeon on display here in the original Greenwald post:

[Skip]

...Mr. Greenwald's more complete hypothesis seems to be that Mr. Zengerle had two genuine emails and fabricated a third.  Somehow that seems to change the balance of probabilities a bit, especially since the "fake" email makes the same point as the two authentic ones.

Since my objection was to his near-total suppression of the existence of two authentic emails alongside the email in dispute, I think he will have a hard time with his claim that I asserted there was no basis for saying the email was "fake".  Well, he will have a hard time if he confines himself to the facts.

Comments

[Carol Herman]

This is starting to look like the Challenger accident; when the spaceship fails to re-enter earth's orbit. And, what gets noticed is the debris.

Once upon a time, in America, there were newspapers in every nook and cranny. Every town, no matter how small, probably had one. Just like it had the town barber. And, the town tailor. And, the town saloon. It came from the human habit to "group." And, the groupings had certain characteristics. Including ENGLISH as a spoken tongue, no matter how far afield were the immigrants who came to populate these outposts.

Starting with the rail system (the 1850's)Morse Code developed. Because the tracks were also able to carry the symbols of tapped in dots and dashes. That's when Western Union began as a company, too.

And, it was so across the fabric of this vast nation.

The word TEAM also carried a different meaning. In that it's old fashioned, now, but TEAM meant the whole body of activity that came after a general election. And, everyone rallied round our newly elected president.

THis is what's changed. It's obvious that now we have TEAMS who never stop fighting each other. And, the perfidy is what keeps getting exposed.

Well, the other side has Nixon, and Vietnam. Places where they know they made a difference in outcomes. Since then? They've been mighty big losers. But it's a game without penalties. So they keep just on doing the same old stuff ... just the same.

Now, we're into a new electronic form. This Internet thing probably wasn't seen as a threat "when Algore was inventing it." But then? Watson's IBM was no Sherlock. He said the computer would never catch on. People would always remain happy with typewriters. Boy, did he guess wrong!

Typewriters were a cash cow business to IBM. And, the computers, when they were IBM mainframes, were, too. Doesn't mean we don't have Big Blue around, today. But it's a shell of a protective company that it once was. (Well, even in Japan, jobs are no longer for life. Nor are most marriages.)

But life goes on.

And, in this new world, it seems the Internet has gone back to the way things were, way, way back in time. WHen everything was "small town." And, there were no big monopolies corrupting adventure, business and risk.

We're still small enough to be making a big difference. And, it seems people are pretty good at catching liars. This same fact holds true in russia, too. WHere truth is merely Pravda.

A good record for "small timers." It should hold some sort of lessons.

[MayBee]

Please remember Glen Greenwald blogs from no particular ideological viewpoint.

[Semanticleo]

commenter; Wouldn't it have been the duty of an honest journalist to check, among other sources, with Steve Gilliard himself?

Greenwald; According to Tom Maguire, he didn't need to. After all, SOME of the e-mails he published were authentic, so what's the big deal if he published a fake one?

Maguire; You, like your beloved Bush, are a man-child. Try growing some stones the spider monkey on your back can be jealous of.

[Glenn Greenwald]

It was obvious from the beginning that two of three e-mails were accurate. I never suggested otherwise. The point is that Zengerle published a fake e-mail. Only someone entirely unburdened by ethical constraints would think that it's a defense to point out that at least two of three e-mails published by TNR were authentic.

It should therefore surprise nobody that you're asserting exactly that defense. Some of what Jayson Blair wrote was accurate, too. But to people for whom ethics matters, it is the fact that he ublished fictitious material that is noteworthy. The fact that some of what he wrote is accurate is not a defense, except to those of us who are ethics-free.

As for your claim that the Kos e-mail proves the same point as the fake Gilliard e-mail, this merely demonstrates that you don't understand the point that Zengerle was trying to make. He was claiming in his last post that bloggers expressed a desire to write about this issue UNTIL Kos told them not to. An e-mail by Kos, quite obviously, could not constitute support for that claim, since a Kos e-mail does not reflect what other bloggers are saying.

The only evidence which could bolster Zengerle's accusation would be e-mails from other bloggers saying that they wanted to write about this issue. The only such e-mail Zengerle has to show that is the fake Gilliard e-mail.

To re-cap - The New Republic published false information in claiming to quote from an e-mail Steve Gilliard sent to the Townhouse list. No such e-mail was sent. The information is false. Zengerle claimed to have three soruces for that e-mail, which is almost certainly false. But Tom Maguire thinks it's a non-issue become some of what TNR printed was accurate.

Do you apply that same standard to your blog - "hey, some of what I post here is accurate, so it's no big deal if I also make stuff up"?

[Gary Maxwell]

Greenwald has a point. What it is exactly I cant fathom. I thought I was being dense, but then Cleo came along and said it made perfect sense to him, so I knew that it was steeped in Astrological code to keep us wingnuts from getting it.

[Gary Maxwell]

I guess Geenwald is taking the TruthOut approach. That my story and I am sticking to it. Oh fair one, what evidence do you have that the e-mail is fake and even further that he does not have three sources that sent it to him?

[Carol Herman]

Check sources? Didn't Bill Keller just run out of town? Oh. I mean "go on vacation" when the NY Times laid out a "big one?" And, for some reason his vacation puts him off this globe, out of bounds of all sorts of satelite signals.

It's been awhile. But from Fitzgerald's "no account fake chase of pflame" it seems highly unlikely that "checking with sources" holds real meaning in journalism schools, these days.

Hmm. I think I can move that back a bit, too. Since Dan RaTHer's "fake but accurate TANG story" got a pass to GO.

Meanwhile, in the universe of the MSM this stuff is not discussed at all.

I'm sure Bill Keller would be surprised anybody would have any questions they'd like to ask.

From the other side, only our President's press man gets questioned. And, those questions sure are weird.

[Semanticleo]

"keep us wingnuts from getting it."

You are your own worst enemy when it comes to learning facts which don't fit your worldview.

Don't blame us for your learning disabilities.

Idiot

[Gary Maxwell]

Coming from an Olestra Liberal ( totally fact free) that is certainly rich. Is the moon rising significant of anything going on in the world today Cleo? Please enlighten us.

[Glenn Greenwald]

Oh fair one, what evidence do you have that the e-mail is fake and even further that he does not have three sources that sent it to him?

If Gilliard sent such an e-mail to the Townhouse list, everyone on the Townhouse list would have received it, including me. Nobody did, because no such e-mail was sent to the Townhouse list. That is called "evidence" that the e-mail is fake.

If Zengerle were telling the truth and that e-mail were authentic, he could very easily prove it - by simply producing the authentic e-mail showing it was sent to the Townhhouse list. But he can't and won't becuase it doesn't exist.

That's called "evidence," too. Then again, I'm speaking to people who think that things are going really well in Iraq, that the violence and chaos is all the media's invention (and fault), and that Saddam really did have WMD's before we invaded, so I shouldn't be surprised that people here will cling to the belief that the fake Gilliard e-mail is real.

That's what happens when one lets their desires guide their perceptions. But Zengerle can easily resolve the whole thing. See what happens if you hold your breath waiting for him to do so.

(And when it is proven that the e-mail is fake, just go ahead and take Tom's approach of claiming that it's no big deal since some of what he published is accurate. That way, you'll never have to admit you were wrong).

[Semanticleo]

Maguire? Maguire?

Come out of that hedgehog hole you hide in
when you're challenged on that Patriots' Pantomime you reflux as a substitute for
thinking and expressing yourself on the keyboard. Wake up and smell the coffee!

[Glenn Greenwald]

Greenwald has a point. What it is exactly I cant fathom.

Really slowly - The New Republic claimed to publish an e-mail to the Townhouse list which, in fact, is nothing of the sort. The claim by the New Republic is false.

What do you think it says about someone who is incapable of "fathoming" such a simple point?

[Gary Maxwell]

I'm speaking to people who think that things are going really well in Iraq, that the violence and chaos is all the media's invention (and fault), and that Saddam really did have WMD's before we invaded, so I shouldn't be surprised

Did you get any on yourself during this violent and uncontrolled seizure?

[Gary Maxwell]

Again what evidence do you have that he was not sent the e-mail by three sources? What evidence do you have that the e-mail does not exist at all and he just "msde it up." Seems to me you were once a big fan of made up documents but I digress.

[Semanticleo]

Did you get any on yourself during this violent and uncontrolled seizure?

Tongue-tied, again Maxwell?

[Sue]

LOL. Funny how this works, you guys. Fake but accurate when it is against a republican, especially Bush or Rove.

The bigger point that Mr. Greenwald isn't disputing...the original point. Kos shut them up. ::grin::

[Gary Maxwell]

Cleo I was assuming you were reading the astro charts to get stock picks for next week with Jerome. But I thought all this ad hom was so beneath you and you really lamented it when it happened to you. Dish it out but not take it, huh?

[Glenn Greenwald]

Again what evidence do you have that he was not sent the e-mail by three sources? What evidence do you have that the e-mail does not exist at all and he just "msde it up."

It's one thing to talk to people who disagree with your points. It's another thing entirely to talk to people who can't understand them.

I didn't claim that Zengerle "made up" the e-mail. I claimed -- because I have evidence (which I detailed right here in this thread) -- that the e-mail is fake because it was never sent to Townhouse, which means that SOMEONE made it up -- either Zengerle or his alleged "three sources."

The whole point is that what he published is false and fake and he therefore has the obligation to explain how he came to publish a fake e-mail in The New Republic, particularly since he claimed that the e-mails were from three sources.

[Sue]

Wow. The standards these guys use for fake but accurate boggles the mind. ::grin::

[Semanticleo]

Dish it out but not take it, huh?

I think your lament has more to do with the fact that I dish it out better than you.

[Semanticleo]

Sue;

It's hard to take serious the comments of one
who ends with ::grin::

[JJ]

Gad, Semanticleo, wake up grumpy today?

[Gary Maxwell]

I got it just fine the very first time but you had left the implication dangling. Now you finally get around to spelling it out. Someone made up the e-mail( if in fact it is a fake it is your word at this point vs. Jason). If you are not accusing Jason Z then who do you think would do so? And why? Does this sound like a false flag operation that some former spook types would pull, or frat boys tired of spoofing Dear Abby or exactly what? Good conspiracy theory are fascinating so do tell us this one, but in full glorious detail.

[Gary Maxwell]

I dish it out better than you.

If you think so then it must be true simply because you assert it. Did you read that in the stars too? That would at least be an outside source however questionable.

[Sue]

Leo,

I'll take that under advisement. ::grin::

[Glenn Greenwald]

Now you finally get around to spelling it out. Someone made up the e-mail( if in fact it is a fake it is your word at this point vs. Jason). If you are not accusing Jason Z then who do you think would do so? And why?

This point was very clear from the beginning. I have no idea who fabricated the e-mail or how it made its way into TNR - only Zengerle can answer that.

What I do know is that Zengerle claimed to have "three sources" for these e-mails, and it is highly unlikely that three people sent him (and/or confirmed) the same fake e-mail. But if Zengerle's "sources" passed on a fake e-mail, I'd say he has the obligation to disclose those sources, just as a consensus (including me) believed Jason Leopold should have done when his "sources" passed along fake information.

To Tom Maguire, it doesn't matter that the TNR published a fake e-mail, because some of the others were real. But to people who aren't impervious to ethical considerations, it matters when a magazine prints a fake e-mail and it is important to figure out why that happened.

[Semanticleo]

If you think so then it must be true simply because you assert it.

I should think you would believe your own eyes, if not my assertions.

[JJ]

Might be nice if the questioned email were established as a something before doing a one-and-a-half header into conclusion-land about it.

Oooooooooooh, took the bait?

[Gary Maxwell]

I should think you would believe your own eyes,

Well my eyes are telling me something else entirely, but maybe it as Groucho Marx said ( not the one that wrote the book you love ) "Are you gonna believe me or your own lying eyes?"

But enough about ny eyes, admit it now ( I promise I wont tell anyone else ) isnt your sources those voices in your head that wont go away and keep you up at night with all manner of turmoil and travail? It tough be witty when you have been up for 64 hours straight and nothing but coffee and cigs for fuel.

[Semanticleo]

"isnt your sources those voices in your head that wont go away and keep you up at night with all manner of turmoil and travail? It tough be witty when you have been up for 64 hours straight and nothing but coffee and cigs for fuel."

Just to be clear....you are speaking in the third person, right?

[Cecil Turner]

Maguire; You, like your beloved Bush, are a man-child. Try growing some stones the spider monkey on your back can be jealous of.

Heh. Pseudonymous sniping about cowardice? Self-parody at its finest.

If Gilliard sent such an e-mail to the Townhouse list, everyone on the Townhouse list would have received it, including me. Nobody did, because no such e-mail was sent to the Townhouse list. That is called "evidence" that the e-mail is fake.

Hmm, okay. But I'm having a hard time buying it completely, mainly because of this comment by Steve:

As for having my e-mail quoted in a subsequent piece in TNR, I will only say that someone violated my confidences, and that TNR's ethics are for shit.

That don't sound like "It's a fake" to me; and I am leery of versions du jour. Ah, I see the more recent claim is:

Let me be clear, I didn't deny writing the e-mail. I said that I had no record of writing such an e-mail with that phrase, to the list on that day.

Compelling. [emphasis added throughout]

[Rick Ballard]

Gary,

The Stalinists kept it up until the Tritskyites were completely purged. The problem for Mowlett's Ass and his sycophants is that they don't have the Lubyanka handy.

The Kossacks can conduct purges and put on show trials but they don't have a Dzerzhinsky or a Beria to sela the deal.

It is amusing to watch but more as farce than drama. Low farce at that.

[Gary Maxwell]

Just to be clear

That the funniest thing you have written yet. You wouldn't no clear if it walked up and slapped you upside your big head and told you to quit slobeeing all over that new tshirt your grandma just gave you cuz you need to wear it to church.

[Gary Maxwell]

No = know

Sheesh I wish I had vocies in my head or been up for 64 hours as an excuse. Cant type, never could. Maybe voice conversion software will show up soon.

[Dwilkers]

Well.

At least the left isn't like the Bush cult we're all in TM. Where, you know, every message is coordinated and nobody is allowed to disagree and whatnot.

[Gary Maxwell]

Cecil

Thanks for the diving to uncover the likely truth behind the maybe not so fake e-mail.

Anyone remember Greenwald calling out loudly for Leopold to out his sources? I am not saying he didn't as I dont read the guy. But I would have thought if a Townhouse e-mail told him to write such that it would have shown up on a lot of the lefty blogs and there would have been a chorus. No chorus comes to mind, however.

[Semanticleo]

Max and Marmallard;

Jeez, I just can't compete with giant brains such as yourselves. Tod Spengo needs subjects like you.

[Gary Maxwell]

I just can't compete

Hence your strong desire for a socialist system? Porbably the last kid picked in the dodgeball teams too. A pity what that did to your self esteem.

[Semanticleo]

"Heh. Pseudonymous sniping about cowardice? Self-parody at its finest."

Are you serving any beef with that Au Jus?

Very Glenn Reynolds of you, Cecil.

[topsecretk9]

At least the left isn't like the Bush cult we're all in TM.

Dwilk -- 2 things...

Also, when KOS labeled TNR a member of the vast right wing neocon conspiracy (remember Bush dissenters are labeled "liberal"} for daring to raise obvious question about the leader Kos...well...

...Greenwald is tackling that question head on isn't he?

Comedy Gold is right.

[Semanticleo]

I just can't compete

Hence your strong desire for a socialist system? Porbably the last kid picked in the dodgeball teams too. A pity what that did to your self esteem.

Satire may be in your dictionary,. Just take the plasic cover off. Spelling is available there as well.

[Semanticleo]

...Greenwald is tackling that question head on isn't he?

And when Maguire feels safe, he will too.

[Pisistratus]

Mr. Turner-your excerpts from Steve Gilliard are fairly slanted. It's clear in context that Gilliard is only exercising utmost restraint before calling Zengerle A LIAR, since it will soon be the only remaining viable hypotheis.

Steve goes on to say:

"Now, I could have claimed to have not written it, and then say I forgot if it came up, but I'm not going to play that way. I was taught journalistic ethics at NYU, and I still practice them. I told Zengerle I couldn't find the words, and that Greenwald had a piece up, because I'm not going to sandbag anyone, I'm not going to make shit up and I'm not going to leave anyone unable to respond. Greenwald is unable to post now, so I may not hear from him until tomorrow

Why? Because unlike the New Republic, I'm not going to take cheap shots. I can treat them fairly, ethically and responsibly because that's what I have always done."

Steve then rightly puts the burden on Zengerle to produce the e-mail because he can't find any such e-mail in his outbox. So how hard can that be for Zengerle or his "sources" to do?

[Dwilkers]

I just can't compete with giant brains such as yourselves

Now now.

You did really well proving you got the vampire joke the other day.

[Gary Maxwell]

You know when you have to explain the joke, it usually loses most of its impact.

Did not know I was conversing with the school marm. I will try harder to type ( spelling is not the problem ).

Plastic covers, isnt that what you have on the living room couch and everyone of your three dress shirt pockets?

[Semanticleo]

You did really well proving you got the vampire joke the other day.

But I'm not sure YOU did.

[Rick Ballard]

Peretz takes up pig wrestling. Bad idea Marty - you wind up stinking and the pig likes it. [via Reynolds]

[Gary Maxwell]

Now, I could have claimed to have not written it, and then say I forgot if it came up,

What the hell does that say ( mean)?

I could have but I didn't cuz.... ( fill in the blank here, right now I am filling in that he cant do so and be truthful ).

But again if Jasn Z did not "make it up " who did? I have not heard a good consiracy in awhile so good ahead, we are dying to hear.

[Pisistratus]

OTOH-never mind-why should I be surprised that people like TM who would contribute to the Libby Defense Fund would have no problem with a 66% truth rate?

[clarice]

I wonder why it would be to JZ's advantage to dominish the strength of his argument for which he has 2 valid emails to add a made up 3d one. Two would be enough, I think.
OTOH, while this may be a big deal in koslandia so few people outside that lost world know or care, and from a p.r. standpoint I wonder if it wouldn't have been better for him to take a far more low key response rather than convey the impression to the outer world that he is a bug eyed , thin skinned, too big for his britches nutter.

[Semanticleo]

You know when you have to explain the joke,

Even a broken clock is right occasionally.

"Don't cast your pearls before swine...."
and all that goes to your point, which was,
well taken.

[Gary Maxwell]

he is a bug eyed , thin skinned, too big for his britches nutter.

Pay attention and take notes Cleo ( and put down that astrology chart). This is how you turn a phrase. Artful and hilarious Clarice.

[clarice]

Well I just read the pig wrestling comment, and Peretz makes my point rather nicely.Is this kos' best way to make a first impression?

OTOH reading with TNR does agree with the left on, who cares? Go to it boys!

[Semanticleo]

Artful and hilarious Clarice.

How would you know?

[clarice]

***wHAT TNR does agree **Thanks, Gary.

[Cecil Turner]

Are you serving any beef with that Au Jus?

Well, the obvious unifying theme is folks not willing to take responsibility for their own words--either through restricted e-mail lists or noms de plume. Not exactly Coeur de Lion material, eh?

Very Glenn Reynolds of you, Cecil.

Well, the "heh" part certainly was.

Mr. Turner-your excerpts from Steve Gilliard are fairly slanted.

Nonsense. I excerpted the parts that made my point (and highlighted them for easy reference, with links). I didn't misquote, leave out clauses, or obscure the source. Your accusation is crap.

It's clear in context that Gilliard is only exercising utmost restraint before calling Zengerle A LIAR, since it will soon be the only remaining viable hypotheis.

What's quite clear to me is that, having previously posted "someone violated my confidences"; he's somewhat limited in how far he can push the "forgery" claim. And again, his main winge appears to be at seeing his words made public.

[Gary Maxwell]

Even a broken clock

Don't cast your pearls

Even in high school journalism classes they teach to avoid trite phrases. Come on you can certainly do better than that. Perhaps a nap?

And your point is well taken but I guess it probably should be directed at yourself, as in : How would YOU know?

[Dwilkers]

while this may be a big deal in koslandia so few people outside that lost world know or care

They certainly care a great deal though don't they?

What gets me about it is everything they needed to know about Kos they should have learned when he dumped Hackett. It just about could not have been more obvious what was going on at that point.

[verner]

"I didn't claim that Zengerle "made up" the e-mail. I claimed -- because I have evidence (which I detailed right here in this thread) -- that the e-mail is fake because it was never sent to Townhouse, which means that SOMEONE made it up -- either Zengerle or his alleged "three sources."

Yes, but how do YOU know that you get every e-mail that is sent through townhouse? Maybe there is a select list within the list and you're not on it. Not that I care. I think it's all foolish and simply proof that you are all co-ordinating your efforts. I just want to know how many of you are getting paid, and who is dishing out the cash (Soros).

[Semanticleo]

Max;

You managed to put a new spin on the trite expression; "I know you are, but what am I?

Congrats. Even if you are running on the
adrenalin fumes of caffeine and nicotine.

You are promoted to Chief Advisor to Tod Spengo.

[Rick Ballard]

There was a gem in comments at TNR:

"But I never read Daily Kos until today."

Well, I did. Found it to be slightly hysterical but mostly incoherent blog. However, the most disturbing part was it's whining and it's latent Savonarola complex, in the best tradition of Edward Said. The self pity and agression reminds one of Chihuahua on steroids.

Can Mowlett's Ass also be a Chihuahua on steroids? I'm going to have to think about it - perhaps it's a type of schizophrenia - yapping when he's not braying. Previously I was alternating images of a braying ass and Chanticleer crowing on a dung heap.

Hmm, is Peretz the fox?

[Gary Maxwell]

Now here is a possible scenario. Gilliard drafted an e-mail and shared the draft as an attachmetn with a few close personal lefty acquaitances. Sorta of a pre Townhouse list. And one or more shared it will Jason cuz they thought it made his point. And one or more confirmed to jasn that they has seen a draft.
Thus of all of his weasel wording around about could not find it etc.

Total speculation but something does not smell right and TNR is not TruthNot, in my book at this point so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt unless someone has a lot more than this crap.

[Gary Maxwell]

Leo

I grow tired of exposing you for the fool that you are. I kinda feel sorry for you at this point. You are like the guard at the bridge in the Monte Python skit. When arms and legs are severed you still snarl " come on over here and I will bite you."

I am going to go spend time with my 11 year old daughter. She is cute and funny and quite nimbe of wit. Sorry that you cant compete.

[Semanticleo]

"noms de plume. Not exactly Coeur de Lion material, eh?"

My name is available to anyone who clicks on my handle. Cowardice has little, if anything to do with anonymity. Just as proudly using
your legal name(Tom Maguire) gives you no corner on courage. Nor does it abslove you of the character flaw which compels you to flee when your argument lacks verity(Maguire, that's YOU!!)

[clarice]

I think Greenwald is just not on the "A" list...the answer is so obvious.

[Redcoat]

So the current Greenwald hypothesis is what - no one has disputed the Kos email, but Mr. Zengerle fabricated the Gilliard email a day later in order to buttress it?

Moonbats,(leo, etc...)

This is the arguement you need to disprove.

[Semanticleo]

I am going to go spend time with my 11 year old daughter. She is cute and funny and quite nimbe of wit. Sorry that you cant compete.

Perhaps not as dumb as you seem.

[topsecretk9]

--Maybe there is a select list within the list and you're not on it. --

Or perhaps he forwarded it to only a few, or perhaps as they say...every dog smells his own hole first? Who was the first "TownHouser" to respond? Doth protest to much, perhaps?

[Another Bob]

topsecretk9 | June 24, 2006 at 09:00 AM:

I suspect you're onto it. Wouldn't surprise me if a couple of the "Townhouse" people were less than thrilled with Kos' strongarming via the advertising network, and dropped a dime to TNR for fun.

[MayBee]

I am just dying to know what journalists were on the list.

A secret group with bloggers, journalists, and political operatives. Charming.

[topsecretk9]

--This is the arguement you need to disprove.--

Have you read TruthOut lately? PROVE a negative...only this is hilarity, fake but accurate -- in a positive...the email is FAKE but ACCURATE!

[Old Dad]

Let's stipulate that Mapery, sock puppetry, and fake emailery are bad bad bad. I have no idea if TNR engaged in such badness.

As I understand it, one of the Kos founders got cross wasys with the SEC--that couldn't have been fun. And same founder is on the record mixing astrology, stock picking, and politics. Weird, but maybe he was joking.

The real joke, though, is the netroots movement. While it's certainly defensible and even enjoyable to poke fun at messianic, delusional, self righteous fools, one wonders if it's not, at the end of the day, counter productive.

The Kossacks are hell bent on destruction of the Democrat Party as evidenced by their almost perfect string of electoral losses.

Isn't that a good thing?

Did Jupiter just align with Mars? Perhaps, it's just indigestion.

[topsecretk9]

--I am just dying to know what journalists were on the list.--

Yeah MayBee...maybe KOS is really a member of the VRC...I mean coordinating with right-wing media and all.

[Rick Ballard]

Gary,

Does it matter? Would the existeance or provenance of the email change the essence of the point being made?

While I find it very easy to believe that Kos is teamed with a hustler in a payola scheme I find it very difficult to care. The people being fleeced by Kos and his ilk deserve to be fleeced - it's part of their educational experience. The money that they throw away is a form of tuition just as the money thrown away on the worthless stocks promoted by Kos's hustle partner was a form of tuition.

How else are suckers to be educated? And since every sucker that buys in to the hustle is someones child - they're doing it for the children.

How very progressive of them.

[topsecretk9]

---"Townhouse" people were less than thrilled with Kos' strongarming via the advertising network, and dropped a dime to TNR for fun.---

Another Bob

One on the salient points TNR raised concerned the Advertising Liberally network...so I suspect your on to it even more -- thanks.

[Dwilkers]

Whatever the truth of the e-mail is the underlying truth now revealed about the left-o-sphere will remain the same.

They are funded by big money Dems and they control their message as a bloc. They are - or the leadership is in any case - a part of the establishment political machine and in it for personal profit to at least some extent. Their leadership is even - implictly if in no other way - holding a sword over the head of their bloggers via the advertising organization.

[windansea]

looks like the oxygen stavation plan is not working....:)

[windansea]

starvation :)

[topsecretk9]

MayBee

Froomkin and James Wolcott are two I bet on.

[verner]

This stuff is getting soooo old. The so called "grass roots" democrat movement is no such thing.

I remember these great pieces depicting the young Eli whatshisname running moveon.org out of a sparsely furnished studio apartment with nothing but a couple of laptops. How Romantic!. Also BS. The entire operation was run out of FENTON. If you tried to contact moveon.org, you went directly to Fenton.

The same with Atrios. He started at Media Whores Online. How long did it take before we knew that Soros was paying him? He certainly didn't tell us.

Kos=ditto.

And anyone who thinks TO/Ash gets $800K from its flea bitten readers in NUTS.

Their whole "movement" is a potempkin village joke. It's just like the CPSUA used to be. Oh yes, we're independent, and have nothing to do with Stalin--even though we are ventriloquists for the Soviet message! Yet, when the Venona files opened up, that was proven a lie. The CPUSA was both funded and micromanaged through Moscow..

This is nothing new for the left.

[Redcoat]

topsecretk9

The provenance of the Kos hush e-mail is not being disputed, or the other two that confirmed it.

Greenwald is arguing that a third was fabricated in order to buttress the ones that are not in dispute.

Is there any rational arguement that would explain this?

[MayBee]

TS- I'd guess that too.
I'd like to know if any people that were responsible fot putting Jeff Gannon and Cindy Sheehan all over the news were responsible for it. Or any of Joe Wilson's press contacts.

I wonder if Greenwald emailed and checked with Zengerle before he wrote this post. He seems to be complaining Zengerle didn't check with him before he wrote his, right?

[windansea]

does this remind anyone else of Animal Farm?

Napoleon and Snowball and the elite little piggies calling for revolt and then adopting "The Man's" MO....

[Cecil Turner]

Nor does it abslove you of the character flaw which compels you to flee when your argument lacks verity(Maguire, that's YOU!!)

"Flee"? TM "flees" for hours at a time, most likely (as with the rest of us) when other duties call. Your "character flaw" nonsense is just that. Nobody is under any obligation to respond to your posts (especially when they're largely empty insults . . . BTW, I'm going to have to "flee" to do some yardwork here before too long . . . )

I am going to go spend time with my 11 year old daughter.

Fleeing so soon?

The Kossacks are hell bent on destruction of the Democrat Party as evidenced by their almost perfect string of electoral losses.

Yeah, and if winning elections were everything, I'd probably be cheering them on. But I do think it's bad for the country, and an intelligent, adult opposition party would be helpful. And this ain't part of it.

Is there any rational arguement that would explain this?

Not really, but because Zengerle is self-admittedly getting it second-hand, I suspect the provenance might well be slightly off. (And Gilliard's demand for the entire piece may be an attempt to run down the source.)

[noah]

Who the hell cares whether old left TNR fabricates an e-mail? Kinsley wrote an infamous piece in TNR years ago saying it was ok to lie in political campaigns. I understand Greenwald picked up on the same theme in recent months and now he whines about a fake e-mail?

Funny how what goes around comes around.

[verner]

Windandsea,

Absolutely! They rave against Capitalism and evil rich Republicans, yet are in bed with the megalomaniac George Soros who is the evil, amoral capitalist incarnate--just like the pigs who, in the end, sold out the other animals for thier own fat selves.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

"Heh. Pseudonymous sniping about cowardice? Self-parody at its finest."

Are you serving any beef with that Au Jus?

Very Glenn Reynolds of you, Cecil.

OTOH-never mind-why should I be surprised that people like TM who would contribute to the Libby Defense Fund would have no problem with a 66% truth rate?

Wow. They're really panicking.

[Semanticleo]

They rave against Capitalism

No, they rave against the avaricious abuse of capitlaism. There is a difference even the
dyslexic can see.

[verner]

Semanticleo,

Don't you have a seminar somewhere you could be attending?

[ed]

Hmmmm.

What a vastly amusing, though utterly inconsequential, affair.

[topsecretk9]

--(And Gilliard's demand for the entire piece may be an attempt to run down the source.)--

An yet...this effort most likely originates from TownHouses's spawn..a newly reformed super secret elite email list of liberal bloggers, journalists and politicians taking marching orders for damage control! What do they call it - DogHouse? and the effort? Operation DeepThroat?

OH, those wild and crazy independent thinking truth warriors.

[Rick Ballard]

Verner,

Nope, Dean Wormer has her on double secret probation until she gets her grade up. A seminar on top of that 2 unit course load could force her to drop out. What a terrible waste that would be when she's only 122 units away from graduation.

[Redcoat]

Cecil Turner

I suspect the provenance might well be slightly off. (And Gilliard's demand for the entire piece may be an attempt to run down the source.)

Good point about possible retaliation,that may well be the endgame.

I would be more concerned about the provenance if they were disputing the content of the hush memo, but they are not.

[noah]

Cleo, I know some very progressive folks here in NC who just happened to cash out before the internet bubble burst...avaricious capitalists? You bet...more power to them...its when they propose to lecture me on their politics that I get irritated.

[topsecretk9]

--I would be more concerned about the provenance if they were disputing the content of the hush memo, but they are not.--

Readcoat...they are not even disputing the follow-up email 1 and 2, just 3...and since 3 mimic's 1 and 2...I repeat...it really is FAKE but ACCURATE.

[verner]

Hmmmm.

What a vastly amusing, though utterly inconsequential, affair.

Here, here.

What I find fascinating is the timing. I think that a few of the last remaining grown-ups in the Democrat party have been checking with pollsters who assure them that the very mention of George Soros is death to a congressional candidate. From what I've read, several republican candidates who have been smeared by the "grassroots" movement have been using this tactic to great advantage.

They've had enough--and now it's time to pull down the props. Expect more.

[verner]

"Nope, Dean Wormer has her on double secret probation until she gets her grade up."

Yeah, and when you get financial aid, you're expected to keep up that GPA.

[Redcoat]

topsecret9

Readcoat...they are not even disputing the follow-up email 1 and 2, just 3...and since 3 mimic's 1 and 2...I repeat...it really is FAKE but ACCURATE.

Sorry, I completely misunderstood what you were saying the first time.

[Cecil Turner]

I would be more concerned about the provenance if they were disputing the content of the hush memo, but they are not.

Yes, and even Gilliard isn't disputing the content of the e-mail attributed to him, noting:

To be fair, I told Glenn I disagreed with the characterization of it being false, because I may have express some kind of sentiment close to that.

So perhaps it was just someone channeling Gilliard?

[topsecretk9]

Verner--

If that is the case...the question is, does the establishment win or do they only succeed in speeding up the impending party meltdown? Guess we'll just have to wait and see how powerful the people powered movement really is?