Haditha - An Alternative View

The Haditha push-back began in earnest on Sunday - from the WaPo:

A sergeant who led a squad of Marines during the incident in Haditha, Iraq, that left as many as 24 civilians dead said his unit did not intentionally target any civilians, followed military rules of engagement and never tried to cover up the shootings, his attorney said.

Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, told his attorney that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. The Marine said there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.

"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," said Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."

Clarice Feldman and "Sweetness and Light" have noted flaws in the MSM coverage.

Comments

[Cecil Turner]

The Staff Sergeant's version holds together better than most of his detractors'. However, something about the incident made local commanders relieve those involved, which indicates at the least a "loss of confidence."

I suspect the main point of contention will be about whether or not the Marines took fire from the first house they cleared. If so, and they cleared it as the SSGT describes, it's tragic but clearly not a crime. If they just thought someone ran in there, it's a borderline call. (And there's always the "rampage" possibility, though the evidence for that theory seems a bit strained.)

[Patton]

""""He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."
"""

Let's name names here: Jeralyn Merritt believes he and his Marines are capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians.

[lurker]

Just one tiny example: How is that different from the Germans dropping bombs in London?

Another tiny example: How is this any different from the terrorists using innocent civilians AND criminals as human shields to thwart our own Marines from doing their own jobs?

Need I say more?

[Rick Ballard]

Cecil,

"Three" is the result of bad initital reporting (what a surprise). Here's a clarification.

Given the general incompetence of the press it's difficult to ascribe malice to the launch of this canard on it's first flight but there's no need to keep it on wing. I'd like to know when the the regiment's commander took over - whether or not he was new on the job but I haven't found anything yet.

[Patton]

Yes, the left did love Clinton dropping bombs all over Serbia from greater than 15,000 feet killing lots of civilians.
In fact intentionally targeting civilian facilities when they ran out of military targets and Milosivic wouldn't give up.

Clinton and Albright (who thought he would immediately cave after a couple days) panicked and started destroying all the civilian infrastructure, to the cheers of the Democrat supporters.

If we had levelled Haditha from the air, no one would have complained.

[lurker]

OT: Autopsy report on Zarq out: Yes, it is indeed him. Yes, he died from the bomb blast. He lived for 52 minutes.

Now we're gonna hear from TalkLeft about the "ever-changing" report.

[Patton]

Let's name some more names:

Rep. John Murtha, Democrat, said Marines shot and killed unarmed civilians in a taxi at the scene and went into two homes and shot others.

yeah, those leftists would never smear our military.

Of course the two faced snits will then turn around and vote for the only candidtae that admits to committing war crimes and atrocities, John Kerry.

And the claim we were unpatriotic for attacking Kerry's war crimes even though he had admitted to them.

[lurker]

Oh, no evidence of beating or firearm injuries.

Good. That would put that one to bed but not the 52 minute part.

[MayBee]

I don't know how much evidence the military can provide, lurker. All it takes is an unknown person making an assertion to make Zarqawi's death a war crime. You can never use facts against assertions when someone wants to believe what is being asserted.

As for Haditha, I don't know what happened. I just don't want anyone prosecuted for murder simply because there is a groundswell of opinion that there was a massacre.
I find Murtha to have acted shamefully in this story.

[Gary Maxwell]

But they support the troops. Can we question their patriotism NOW?

[lurker]

MayBee, there is a post at Hotair indicating that the autopsy report is out, which this report says that there are no evidence of beating or firearm injuries. We'll see if this is confirmed by other sources.

Speaking of the accusations of killing innocent civilians, including children, take a look at this link.

[Gary Maxwell]

The Doctor on the phone at the military briefing this morning said ( paraphrasing) no evidence of firearm injuries and no evidence of beating. Damage to lungs from the bomb concussion were not survivable.

Although the Dr. spoke in English it sounded like an Arabic accent. I would have bet this was a civilian Iraqi Dr. based upon that. Anyone hear enough of the press conference lead in to confirm that?

[ed]

Hmmmm.

However, something about the incident made local commanders relieve those involved, which indicates at the least a "loss of confidence."

Honestly I'd be careful about that. There have been multiple conflicting reports about the reasoning behind these dismissals so almost anything is possible. Also keep in mind that relieving officers from their command *prior* to a completed investigation, if in fact the dismissals were associated with Haditha, seems a bit wonky.

It's possible they were relieved prior to the investigation's completion as a part of some JAG procedure. Or it's possible that the commanding general didn't like how they were operating. Or felt that they weren't implementing his plans appropriately.

*shrug* until and unless we get a better idea of just why those officers in the chain of command were relieved, I wouldn't try ascribing any particular reason for it. Frankly most of this stuff is almost pure speculation. And reading this in news accounts doesn't make it any less speculative.

[Semanticleo]

The natural progression of any discussion about the war in Iraq seems end up in the lap of our boys in uniform. Haditha, regardless of what fact-finding reveals, is the result
of putting our troops in a cauldron of social
chaos, working rotating shifts seven days a week, without a clear plan for occupation or withdrwal. This untenable position and the
daily, weekly, monthly, yearly pressures which attend, were not the brainchild of the grunts on the ground. But the civilian and military brass who, while in the rear with the gear, facilitated the environment which sets up the troops for just such things as
Haditha.

I believe Maguire's 'Alternative View" is the most plausible of all conclusions to be made. The troops are magnificent and each one of them deserves a field commission just for sticking it out. The civilian and Military Brass who put them there......?

Well, let's remember, the REAL criticism which stems from events like Haditha, are really about the incompetence and carelessness of THESE guys, not the troops.

[Gary Maxwell]

Just another chance to Bash Bush. And if it smears the troops in the process, well that cant be helped.

And of course we could fix it all if we just immediately withdrew to a point just over the horizon...

[lurker]

When Jerry pointed to Jason Leopold's new article over at truthout.org, I see two articles over there: Dem fund-raising catches up while GOP fundraising falters (right) and the Republicans sneaking in a new bill calling for more new US military bases.

I remember reading of attempts of redeploying our troops from the cities to outside the cities while allowing the Iraqi police and security to take on more responsibility in a support role.

Yet, this article appears to bash Bush for this attempt.

[PaulV]

I beleive that early reports said those officiers were releived because they were newly arrived in Iraq and commander wanted people he knew in charege in case there were problems. Preventive rather than for cause

[windansea]

hmmmm...Zarqawi's 16 year old wife and 18 month old son were killed in the air raid

do the math

and the left want's us to read the guy his miranda rights

[clarice]

There has been a lot of interesting stuff about Haditha in the blogosphere this weekend. I think this comment by Protein Wisdom is the one I found the most compelling:
"I suppose it is easy enough to see soldiers as emblematic of the war you despise, and so to forget that they are individual Americans whose lives hang in the balance. But the ease of such politically-charged boundry blurring between the individual and what the individual represents to you does not excuse it. These soldiers are not simply ribbing on the condom that lubricates what many in the anti-war crowd have come to think of as President Bush’s imperialistic war penis; and so their actions are not “proof” that the neocon oil-worshipers have “raped” a sovereign nation simply because asserting such matches your preconceived notion of the war and its “legality.” Unless, that is, you are one of those people who believes it is okay to sacrifice the individual at the altar of a highly-contested “greater good.”

Such arrogance is more than unbecoming, however: it is anathema to the very idea of individual rights. "

www.proteinwisdom.com/ind...try/20518/

And Sweetness& Light's follow up on Time's retractions on the Haditha story is worth reading. I am especially taken by the retraction of Matt Cooper's report on HRW's Sifton's most incendiary report that he saw a picture of an Iraqi kneeling to be shot by one of our troops. It underscores that (a) Matt is a crap reporter with little concern for the truth and what this false reporting means to the people involved;(b) how great a role the Soros funded HRW played in this slander of the troops,(c) how easy it is to bury the correction long after the lie has done its damage.

[clarice]

Paul IV ..It is true that the Time lies were given treated as more serious because of the DoD's non-response and the shifting of officersm but it does appear that people drew the wrong conclusions from the latter. As I understand it there were three incidents on or in Haditha at about the same time, and I can fully understand why it would be considered important to put more experienced officers there.

[Semanticleo]

What sort of rational discussion could be considered complete without the incessant double-entendre of Jeff Gallstone.

Since he brought up the Penis issue with regard to this war, let's also consider the
pysical traits that both Cheney and Bush seem to share; Hamster hands. Could that be indicative of anything instructive in this issue? Let's get out all the
knee-hammers
and begin pounding on those reflexive activities, shall we?

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

My bet is that the "report" that Murtha refers to contains the uncorroborated claims of Haditha residents as well as the statements of some of the Marine participants. I would also bet that the conclusions and findings section said, in essence, "more investigation is required".

The loutish Jabbering Jackass jumped in with all the weight of his years of senility and construed what he had read in light which would best reflect the Party of Pusillanimity's position.

When in doubt - side with the terrorists.

[clarice]

I'm sure you are right, Rick.He did the same thing with yet another case. And he got this information which he misused by virtue of his committee assignment.

The other day scrolling the IT I came across a pic of Carolyn Kennedy handing Murtha a Profiles in Courage award. Aside from the inappropriateness of that, it is interesting to see how thoroughly under Ted (who smiles in the snap between the two) has destroyed his brother's legacy.

[clarice]

*****UNCLE Ted****

[JohnH]

Reading about Time's "corrections" it seems that the only difference between this story and Rathergate is that no one has made it obvious that the video involved is fake.

However, if the source of the video is suspect, and MSM has not "fact checked" the source, then it really is Rathergate all over again.

As for purported pictures of civilians on their knees unarmed etc., even if there is such a picture, how do we know these people on their knees were then "assassinated?" Maybe the marines gave them candy bars. The source of the information is absolutely critical in this situation, and MSM won't look into it unless they are caught red-handed and on film. So Haditha will live on.

[Dwilkers]

Like Semantic above, I blame Bush for the whole thing. I mean, if a guy in the military 15,000 miles away is accused of a crime by our oh-so-reliable media that's clearly about Bush.

And hurricanes, and drought, and ice storms too. And abortions. And racism. And ballots that some people are apparently too stupid to read and mark correctly.

And male pattern baldness, breast cancer, and AIDS in Africa. Psoriassis, shingles and overactive bladder. Drug addiction and crime. Child abuse.

If my child gets a D in math I know Bush was involved somewhere along the line.

Mosquitos. Fleas. Wasps. All rodent pests of any sort.

Earthquakes, volcanos, tidal waves.

The Bermuda Triangle. Space Aliens.

Pretty much anything bad I tie back to Bush. Really he's sorta God-like in that way isn't he?

And I haven't even started on Rummy and Rove yet.

[Semanticleo]

Yes Dwilkers. More rational thought.

If Bush isn't to blame for EVERYTHING wrong with the world, then he must not be responsible for ANYTHING else either.

[Pofarmer]

What I wanna know is if all this new information will get as much press as the original charges. Wait a minute, I think I already know that, hmmmmmmm.

[Dwilkers]

I completely agree Semantic, as I said.

Some military guy gets in a car wreck in Afghanistan, or commits some crime in Iraq?

Bush, 100%.

[clarice]

It occurs to me that all three Time "corrections" relate to HRW's role in the Time report on Haditha. I just wrote to John Sifton of HRW, the only HRW staffer referred to by name in the retractions and asked him to provide a chronological account of that group's role in the Time reports.

I can't believe no reporter has done this yet.

[Sue]

Leo,

You guys should have thought of that before you blamed Bush for EVERYTHING. The boy who cried wolf comes to mind. ::grin::

[Dwilkers]

Heck even back when I was in USMC boot in 1982 I knew it.

I mean sure, they made us memorize and recite on demand the PoW code of conduct, and articles of the UCMJ, and definition of rape and all that silliness. Hammered us with the difference between a lawful order and an unlawful order, and what we were supposed to do in each case. Told us horror stories and Levenworth, possible execution for war crimes, all that stuff.

But the DI's would kind of nod and wink, and we all knew what was true; if we committed a war crime it was Reagan's fault. No worries. Rape and murder away!

[maryrose]

Every modern newspaper has become the National Enquirer. The slander and untruths abound and misleading the public is the endgame.All the truth about Haditha will come out by August and those players who hoped to benefit from this will be exposed for the charlatans that they are.

[PeterUK]

So Bush is responsible for Semanticleopold also?

Since the inquests on events are getting ever closer to the event,why not have prequests where possible future events are analysed and blame apportioned?

[clarice]

From your mouth to God's ear, Maryrose.

[Carol Herman]

We're not in Nam, anymore. And, in 2004 you saw the necessary majority of Americans discounting Kerry, and his "lost" hat.

The donks still aren't running all that well.

And, the media bombardment of how Rove was gonna get purp walked, led enough, here, to say that Fitzmas' presents were worse than coal in the bag.

What do wars look like? They're not pretty.

Our Media War, where the Internet (like the original American Revolutionaries against the British), are just a rag tag bunch. But we've got them at the Bulge.

A long time ago, Patton said he'd piss in the Rhine, as soon as the Americans crossed into Germany; and, leave it to the Internet, the photo of that event is up there.

You think the MSM can run? All depends on your meaning of "run" ... They certainly can't hide.

[leo]

Semanticleo,
Is your nick or my Italian ancestry that, after reading your comments, I think that "testicle" would suit you better ;)

[PeterUK]

Sadly,all the lies become the received wisdom,any later correction will be called a whitewash,it is essential to make rebuttals premptive.

[windansea]

this just in:

Dan Abrams Becomes GM of MSNBC
Drudge readers: Phil Griffin is named executive-in-charge of MSNBC. A senior NBC exec explains the move. Here's the main page of TVNewser...

MSNBC anchor Dan Abrams is leaving his anchor chair to become the general manager of MSNBC.

"With his nine years of experience at MSNBC, Dan will bring an insider's perspective to the job. Dan is passionate about MSNBC and has the experience and strategic vision to lead it into its second decade," Steve Capus says.

In the press release, Abrams is quoted: "Nothing is more important to me than the future success of MSNBC. I'm looking forward to leading MSNBC into this next phase, building on our recent success. I can't wait to get started."

He won't have to wait long: the appointment is effective immediately. Abrams will no longer anchor "The Abrams Report," but he will "remain NBC News Chief Legal Correspondent, providing legal analysis and commentary for 'Today' and other NBC News and MSNBC programs." He will report to Phil Griffin...

[clarice]

I wrote to Sifton of HRW to find out what he'd told Time and he responded. He pointed to an MSNBC report on May 26 indicating NCIS sources and a "military official" told its reporters that a photo taken afterward indicated deliberate killing. I've asked jim.miklaszewski author of that to clarify his report. It was interwoven with Murtha's charges, and I want to find out if he was told this directly or it is hearsay. It seems to me an outrage if NCIS investigators were releasing information to the press prejudicial to Kilo company..Ditto the unnamed "pentagon official".

If Cecil or anyone with military procedures on such things has information to bear let me know. I've informally asked a Pentagon press officer for an explanation.

BTW, how could one tell from a still photo of a person lying supine on the floor whether that person has been deliberately shot by US troops, killed by others, or killed by a grenade or spraying of the room as the Wa Po article descibed? Just asking, because it doesn't seem possible to me.

[cathyf]

BTW, how could one tell from a still photo of a person lying supine on the floor...

Similar question -- given a still photo of a person kneeling, how can you tell whether the person was killed in cold blood by someone, or killed after he got up and attempted to run, or is in detention somewhere, or is just fine and at home because the troops were just immobalizing bystanders for the duration of the firefight, and after the dust settled the troops just let them all go?

cathy :-)

[Jane]

If we had levelled Haditha from the air, no one would have complained.

No no no, if we had levelled Haditha from the air, an erstwhile neighbor would show up to say we personally pulled the citizens from the rubble to knock them off their stretchers and beat them. Sheesh get with the program!

[maryrose]

clarice:
My husband and I have always referred to Teddy as the weakest link in the Kennedy dynasty.

[clarice]

It is something when you start to trackback a story that "everybody" knows is true, isn't it?

Here's the msnbc report highlights--so interwoven with Murtha's charges:

"Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.

One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine.

“This one is ugly," one official told NBC News"

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:haTbbjktSm4J:www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/+NBC+May+17,+2006+Haditha&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1>mulberry bush

Now, if the NCIS assumed that the Kilo Company had claimed--and Kilo says it didn't--that the only civilian deaths were due to the IED explosion, the claims about the photos might have some merit. But if there was house to house fighting, these photoes don't warrant the conclusions.

[clarice]

**photos***

[Specter]

I love it when Tic (good name - a parasite that sucks the blood from another animal) shows up. No matter what, more often than not he proves the Rules of Disinformation that floated around Usenet for quite a while. Catch up on the rules here.

[clarice]

Like they need to learn some new tricks! Thanks a lot, Specter.

[PeterUK]

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

A videotape taken by an Iraqi showed the aftermath of the alleged attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

Things stand out,
A young Iraqi girl not too traumatised to teel her story.
Her father praying.

An ambitious Representative with previous form on blabbing.

An amazingly convrnient Iraqi trainee journalist with a video.

Time magazine,Associated Press.

An obliging Pentagon spokesman.
All the ingredients are there,too good to be true.

[clarice]

Yes, indeed they are.
If NCIS investigators and other military officials were, in fact, poisoning the case against the Kilo company to curry favor with the press or for any other reason, they should be the ones prosecuted. And I intend to do whatever I can to get to the bottom of it, (I wonder, however, if the press was merely covering for Murtha. If he told the press this stuff and they reported it as though they'd heard it first hand.)

[clarice]

And don't forget, PUK, Time conveniently and repeatedly, dissembling about the source of the video they'd received. Consistently trying to source it in some way to HRW..not to (a) the local "visiting student" who was a middle aged local activist and (b) second hand reports from Sifton who got the from MSNBC and NPR who got it from who knows? Murtha? NCIS investigators and a "military official"?

[Specter]

This may have already been posted. The "convenient Iraqi trainee journalist" took his video the day after the incident. According to Sweetness & Light he is:

And al-Haditha is not separate and apart from the Hammurabi Human Rights Group. Nor is he a man who wanted to remain anonymous because he feared for his safety.

Al-Haditha is 43 years old. He "created" Hammurabi 16 months ago. (Before that he worked directly under the head of Haditha’s hospital, Dr. Walid al-Obeidi, who pronounced that all the victims had been shot at close range.)

In fact, al-Haditha is one of Hammurabi’s only two members. He serves as its "Secretary General" while the only other member, Abdul-Rahman al-Mashhadani, performs as its "Chairman.")

Al-Haditha is the one and only person behind this tape. He made it. And he sat on it for four months before turning it over to Time magazine.

See the article and picture here.

Sorry clarice - but if you read through you will find that most of the rules are already in play.

[Gary Maxwell]

HRW???

Are we referring to Human Rights Watch?

Is Soros up to his elbows in this misnamed and quite Anti American organization?

So may questions I know.

[Specter]

Same group Gary.

[Semanticleo]

As I expected, no one here wishes to discuss how incompetent leadership has exposed our troops to harm. S'OK. It's clear where you're coming from.

[Bob]

clarice wrote:

"BTW, how could one tell from a still photo of a person lying supine on the floor whether that person has been deliberately shot by US troops, killed by others, or killed by a grenade or spraying of the room as the Wa Po article descibed? Just asking, because it doesn't seem possible to me."

Simple clarice. We can just ask John Kerry since he's been able to prove he didn't shoot that Vietnamese boy in the back to get his Silver Medal. ::grin::

[verner]

Congrats Clarice! I heard Limbaugh mention both you and Sweetness today as I was driving around.

Looks like the news is getting around--FINALLY!

And no, this time they WILL NOT get away with a new, made-up My Lai.

[Specter]

Nice Try TIC. Rule #17.

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
This smells too much like Haifa Street,we know for a fact that the terrorists will kill their own without compunction.It is common for them to hide behind civilians,it is commom for weapons to be removed.
Associated Propagandists have a reputation for staging "events",IIRC wasn't the NYT missile one of theirs,certainly,AP bought staged snuff pictures of The Massacre on Haifa Street.

[PeterUK]

It is worth noting that "al-Haditha" simply means man from Haditha,nice and flexible,eh?

[Specter]

Is al-Quaeda men from Quaeda then? Makes 'em easier to find...LOL

[clarice]

Yes, Gary, sorry HRW is Soros funded Human Rights Watch but they claim that they had nothing to do with the video Hammurabi gave Time (2 Time retractions on that) and that Sifton never claimed to have first hand knowledge of evidence of the massacre (Cooper's last retraction) Sifton says he only reporteed what MSNBC and NPR reported. I haven't tracked down the NPR report but I have tracked down the MSNBC report (see above) and it is curious;y interwoven with Murtha's charges so that it is unclear what MSNBC got first hand and what they got from a hearsay report my Murtha. In any event if any military investigator or officer reported this crap to the press, he should be in the dock--

[Bob]

Dwilkers... the only thing you can't blame on Bush is the rising cost of Tin Foil.

That my friend is driven purely by supply and demand.

[Gary Maxwell]

So help me out here. In the journalistic code of conduct, its alright to run a story for which you have no source if one of your competitors is running the story already? WTF?

How about we start a story that Chris Mathews is gay? Will they run with that now too or does it have to be on MSNBC first?

[Jane]

Sorry to change the subject, but what time was the Libby hearing today?

[PeterUK]

The price of tin foil has risen purely because it was discovered that matching underwear was essential,Look at little Tic,it is obvious that tin foils would be wasted as a hat.

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

Investigators working for the NCIS aren't necessarily military. My understanding is that many, if not most, of them are former cops who shifted over to a federal gig.

I'm very curious as to any leak from the investigation to the press. If it were a civilian situation the leak could be a "first one to turn gets a deal" type of situation but that would be pretty clumsy on their part.

My bet is that the Jabbering Jackass mumbled something like "as this NCIS report says" and the press lapdogs wrote it up as confirmation. That would certainly be well within their ethical parameters.

[clarice]

I think so, too, Rick. The only think that seems to be a direct quote in the msnbc piece is a "miliatry officer" saying this looks bad..which given journo ethics is probably a snippet from something which was more likely, "If the report that Murtha is giving is true, this looks bad."

And if my supposition is correct, it may well be that Murtha told msnbc and NPR what he said the NCIS investigators said, they reported it as first hand accounts, Sifton told this to Time which pronted it as if it were true.

In other words crap hearsay of hearsay.
Now, that shouldn't affect any proceeding against Kilo company but as a practical matter it makes it hard for the place sitters to go against the tide of (misinformed) public opinion and it means whatever the final outcome the loonies will claim whitewash.
Did I tell you I am beginning to truly despise the press?

[clarice]

Redoing because of excessive typos:

I think so, too, Rick. The only thing that seems to be a direct quote in the msnbc piece is a "military officer" saying this looks bad..which given journo ethics is probably a snippet from something which was more likely, "If the report that Murtha is giving is true, this looks bad."

And if my supposition is correct, it may well be that Murtha told msnbc and NPR what he said the NCIS investigators said, they reported it as first hand accounts, Sifton told this to Time which printed it as if it were true and personally verified to be by Sifton.

In other words crap hearsay of hearsay.
Now, that shouldn't affect any proceeding against Kilo company but as a practical matter it makes it hard for the place sitters to go against the tide of (misinformed) public opinion and it means whatever the final outcome the loonies will claim whitewash.
Did I tell you I am beginning to truly despise the press?

[PeterUK]

Perhaps the Representative should havr a medical?

[Bob]

Gee Peter, I thought they wore lead underwear... something about keeping their center of gravity below their waist. Ya know just like those Weebles... Weebles Wobble, Weebles Wobble, Weebles Wobble, but they don't fall down.

See for yourself!
http://www.hasbro.com/playskool/WEEBLES/

make sure you play the video...

[Specter]

Semanticweeble

[Carol Herman]

The "weakest link" in the Kennedy dynasty was Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy.

[JM Hanes]

Semaniticleo

"Well, let's remember, the REAL criticism which stems from events like Haditha, are really about the incompetence and carelessness of THESE guys, not the troops."

Do you really have no idea how patently flawed your logic is? Unfortunately, to make the case above, first you have to believe that the soldiers in question did, in fact, crack up, go on a rampage and commit stunning atrocities. Otherwise, you've got nothing there to blame "THESE guys" for, do you?

Critiques of "civilian and Military Brass" don't stem from "events like Haditha." Such events, whether accurately described and reported or not, are simply used to bolster the left's pre-existing talking points. Circular reasoning is so conveniently self-affirming!

Look at the example set by http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015054.html>Jeralyn Merritt in her take on the alleged beating of Zarqawi. One of her own commenters said it best:

i’m a bit surprised at you TL. not for reporting this, but for creating, out of whole cloth, a potential scenario, without getting the facts. shame on you!

Like so many on the left, Merritt's first instinct was to imagine a way that an (entirely unsubstantiated) accusation could be true. The fact that her proposed scenario relied on an unbelievably superficial stereotype of guys in combat just added insult to injury.

If our troops are not stretched to the breaking point, then the left's vision of incompetant leadership and of what's actually happening in Iraq is badly wrong. If, however, our troops are as universally stressed and as badly led as claimed, then evidence of that degradation will obviously have to show up somewhere -- thus, the left is ideologically compelled to believe the worst when murky stories like that of Haditha surface "regardless of what fact-finding reveals," as you yourself so accurately put it. Otherwise, they might have to admit they've wasted years pounding away at the same meagre collection of miserably mistaken talking points.

Frankly I don't see anyone in a leadership position on the left with the courage to challenge the very orthodoxy that folks like Merritt represent and that ultimately proves more disastrous to troop morale than stop loss orders or anything else. There's a reason that "but, we support the troops!" has become the sad tagline of cynical jokes both at home and on the ground in Iraq. Men like Murtha can swear they do, but the troops who need to believe it most, just don't.

[JM Hanes]

Carol

"The "weakest link" in the Kennedy dynasty was Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy."

ROTFLMAO!

[Patton]

Until conservatives/Republicans in leadership position actually sanction these news outfits they won't change and they will get worse.

Time should be barred from the war zone..sure they can run around Iraq, but the will not be allowed on military facilities, they will not ride with the military and they will not be given aid by the military.

If they want to screw us, lets screw them.

I noticed everytime a journalist gets in trouble (Kidnap, wounded, lost) they go running to our military and Uncle Sam to bail them out. They don't go running to the UN, they don't go running to Al queda.

[clarice]

I think the military and their families and supporters should just cancel all subscriptions and ask everyone to join them. And commissaries should be urged to drop the mag..For starters.

[Patton]

I remeber one of the few good things I saw on PBS was a serious of panels talking about war and the role of jounalists.

I believe it was Dan rather and Brokaw or Jennings that was asked if they were taken by the enemy to see how they operate and then discovered that they were going to witnes the enemy ambush a platoon of American soldiers, the journalists agreed they would NOT attempt to warn the Americans, they would remain neutral and silent and let the soldiers be killed.

A disgusted soldier on the panel who had lost an arm was asked to comment and his reaction was priceless. He stated that three days after the ambush, these jounalists are walking across a field and get wounded and pinned down by enemy fire.

Why should I help them? There just journalists? Not Americans.

But what really pissed him off was he said, but we would help them, and Marines would die to rescue a couple of journalists.

And the reporters agreed.

WELL, ITS TIME WE STOPPED RESCUING JOURNALISTS! IF THEY AREN'T ON OUR SIDE IN GOOD TIMES, WHY LET THEM RUN TO OUR SIDE IN BAD!!

[Patton]

Here is that series from PBS. It was Wallace.

http://newsbusters.org/node/4479

George Connell, a Marine Corps Colonel, reacted with disdain: "I feel utter contempt. Two days later they're both walking off my hilltop, they're two hundred yards away and they get ambushed. And they're lying there wounded. And they're going to expect I'm going to send Marines up there to get them. They're just journalists, they're not Americans."

The discussion concluded as Connell fretted: "But I'll do it. And that's what makes me so contemptuous of them. And Marines will die, going to get a couple of journalists."

[Rick Ballard]

Patton,

"Ambush" Mike Wallace - here's the panel discussion.

Second only to Cronkite as an 'America Laster'.

[kate]

I agree with the comments regarding the journalists and reporting on this story as well as others. It's been distressing. In fact, I e-mailed a Washington Post reporter who in back-to-back stories quoted unverifiable sources to slander the US military. She quotes a villager who says that US investigators tried to bribe him to report the events in a way favorable to the soldier involved (not Haditha, another case).

Today, she's quotes an eyewitness, whose account can't be corraborated, to the beating of their apparent hero Zarqawi by US soldiers.

The problem is that it's difficult for me to be polite anymore. This isn't even reporting that meets basic journalism standards. If it's anti-American, or anti-military, or anti-Bush--run with it.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

However, something about the incident made local commanders relieve those involved, which indicates at the least a "loss of confidence."

When a U.S. Congressman comes out publicly and says he has been briefed and says: “There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed those innocent people,” said Congressman John Murtha commenting on the outcome of a military investigation. “Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.” ... a military commander has little choice but to open an investigation.

Murtha is a senile old man. Vote him out of office ASAP!!!

[clarice]

Can anyone find an NPR article by Bowman on Haditha referring to NISC investigators which Sifton mentioned in his response to me? Thanks.

[Patton]

Murtha can say it because he knows there will be no consequences.

Anything on Libby today.

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

Obedisco

[kate]

The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
Clarice: try this.Shortcut to: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5428479

[kate]

clarice-it looks like someone at the Pentagon was talking in a way that was very damning to at least 2 Marines at Haditha, including the sergeant.

Don't understand why that's going on.

[Rick Ballard]

From May 19th - Bowman/NPR

"a government official familiar with the investigation tells NPR."

Fat Jabbering "Jack"ass Murtha or a Dem staff flunky.

PS - No leak by NCIS and no direct attribution to DoD or the Pentagon. This is Dem homecooked gruel.

[Semanticleo]

JM;

"first you have to believe that the soldiers in question did, in fact, crack up, ..."

So Maguire, in his scenario, wherein something
went wrong at Haditha, is 'bolstering the left-wing talking points"? You don't have to believe the marines 'cracked up' before they
opened fire. You just have to know what kind
of daily pressure they face. Human beings are, just that, human. Who wouldn't lose
the calm, collected mental state we admire our best for displaying under stress, when the conditions are so extreme.

If you think everyone against this war is also anti-military personnel then your position goes contrary to the facts you seem to cling to. Or are the sacred facts only those which pander to your point of view.

[PeterUK]

"the journalists agreed they would NOT attempt to warn the Americans, they would remain neutral and silent and let the soldiers be killed."

But they are liars,they are not neutral.

[kate]

Patton-nothing from York yet on the Libby hearing. I'm afraid we'll have to hear from David Shuster who can tell from Fitzgerald's body language that Rove is doomed, doomed I tell ya!

[clarice]

Thanks, Rick!

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Byron York has been busy monitoring the tinfoil hats.

[Lurker]

And there is now a Byron York post at NRO about the YKOS.

[kate]

Clarice/Rick: some clarification on the pictures in this posting:

Shortcut to: http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/06/12/video-marines-lawyer-discusses-haditha-on-cnn/

[kate]

Looks like a dull session on Libby, or so it seems
Shortcut to: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13285445/

[Specter]

Tic,

Congratulations on actually making a somewhat cogent post. We still do not know which way the investigation will go or what the conclusions will be. Neither does Murtha. I don't care what kind of connections he has - he ain't that well loved.

But, we have seen quite a few "holes" in the story that MSM published to begin with. That is the problem. The rush to judgement without all the facts.

Now we have an "eye-witness" to Z-Man's alleged beating. Anybody looked at the tape of the bomb run - nothing else around. If this "witness" was actually there, I would say they were pretty courageous. But then again - the tape from Haditha seems to have fizzled, as well as the infamous photographs. All reported by the "We Never Make Any Mistakesa and Alway Fact-Check Our Stories with Wiki" MSM. So who do I believe? That's easy. But - I am still patient enough to wait for the investigation to be finished before labeling someone a "cold blooded murder" - even if it takes as long as 24-business-hours.

[Lurker]

Anyone had a chance to listen to Ilano Pantano's interview with Euphoric Reality? He has a new book out and it is supposed to be a really good book.

Pantano had to deal with someone accusing him, which he ended up being exonerated at high personal cost.

Shame that our troops had to go through these things.

[PeterUK]

On the bright side,many of those young people in the military are going to be the politicians of the future,academics and business leaders...they will remember.

[Specter]

And PeterUK - if the past is any indicator they will all be Republicans. LOL

I wanted to comment on the fact that some of the officers and marines have been relieved of duty in Iraq while the investigation is proceeding. We should not be trying to read anything into this. It is similar to what happens when a police officer is involved in a shooting. Moved from "active" to "desk". No big deal.

[kate]

My major concern after reading about the pictures in the Hot Air post I linked to above is that the gruesome pictures are not inconsistent with a firefight on taking down a house.

However, the media has learned that pictures are what gives a story legs. Abu Ghrabib was not a big story until the pictures surfaced.

The media, aided by the ACLU, will try to get the pictures. And whoever showed CNN the pictures should be immediately fired if found out. This is ridiculous.