Haditha Open Thread

Let's have an open thread on Haditha - this LA Times story about the failure of the Marine chain of command to investigate with vigor can be a launching point.

Marines Missed 'Red Flags,' Study Finds

Corps failed to inquire further into killing of civilians in Haditha, a disclosed summary says.

By Julian E. Barnes and Tony Perry, Times Staff Writers
June 21, 2006

WASHINGTON — A report on the killing of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines has found that senior military personnel in Iraq failed to follow up on "red flags" that should have indicated problems with and potential inaccuracies in initial accounts of the incident, according to a portion of the report's summary.

The report questions why senior military officers in western Iraq failed to investigate further what happened in the town of Haditha when they learned that civilians there had been killed in the November incident. A portion of the executive summary of the report, by Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell, was read to The Times by a Defense Department official who requested anonymity because the report had not been released publicly.

Comments

[Good Lt]

No cover up, though. Incompetence or negligence is not evidence of conspiracy.

Obviously.

As to the why? Personally, I thnk it was the fog of war.

[richard mcenroe]

A "portion" that the LA Times has not even seen first hand, because the "anonymous Defense Department official" can't release the entire document he's selectively leaking from.

Well, that's just airtight, baby...

[Semanticleo]

"The report questions why senior military officers in western Iraq failed to investigate further"

Seems pretty simple. Every bureaucracy has
key personnel who tell their superiors what they want to hear. The necessary concomitant is to AVOID issues which are perceived as career killers.

Otherwise, do you think so many would have remained silent while Zinni exposed himself
(with predictable outcome) on the issue of
HOW MANY TROOPS NEEDED TO SECURE IRAQ?

[Sue]

Zinni exposed himself? Sheesh...I'm glad I missed that one...

[davod]

Wait for the full report.

[Semanticleo]

Sue; I am shocked at your obsessive preoccupation with 'double-entendre'.

[Sue]

Shocked, I tell ya'...shocked...

::grin::

Sorry Leo. I just have a hard time taking you seriously. I will endeavor to try ... no promises, though.

[Richard Aubrey]

There are reports the Haditah city fathers weren't complaining, despite some of them being related to some of the victims.

If true, then they must not have thought it was any kind of murder. Things are/were not good in Haditha, and if kin are killed, I suppose one mourns, but there are still things to get done. If kin are murdered, I expect the perps' superiors would get an earful. Apparently they didn't.

If these reports are true, this will fall apart quicker than the Duke lax case.

[j]

I know that it is an overworked point, but I can't help but put less than 100% faith in what these retired generals say due to the fact that most of them became generals during peace time. With so little real experience in war, I can't help but discount most of their criticism of the people actually fighting the war.

[Cecil Turner]

Wait for the full report.

That'd be nice. But when media reports have essentially convicted all concerned, before the first indictment, even . . . (The good news is that it's getting harder and harder to take 'em seriously.)

[clarice]

Yes, it is, Cecil.There has been more investigative reporting on this done by bloggers than by the MSM--Sweetness& Light, Dan Riehl and Waldon (of the Hawaii Report) have exposed the weakness of the claim; the fishy provenance of the evidence, the agenda of the accusers, and the press. I'm increasingly convinced that this will be more like the hard candy Fitzmas than My Lai.

[MayBee]

I'll repeat myself. I don't know if this will be a Fitzzle or a Mai Lai. I just want the Marines charged appropriately and not politically. The consensus that was building (massacre!) seemed to be creating an atmosphere that would have made it untenable for the Pentagon not to charge.

[clarice]

BTW Sweetness & Light reported yesterday that the families of the deceased are still refusing exhumation and autopsy of the dead, noting that this has not been the case in the Hamdaniya case and countless other cases in Iraq, further weakening the case against the Kilo company.

[ghostcat]

I still suspect there was a germ of a problem, and that it has been grotesquely overblown. We don't know nearly enough to render a judgement worth a fried fig.

[Jane]

>There has been more investigative reporting on this done by bloggers than by the MSM--Sweetness& Light, Dan Riehl and Waldon

I read this and thought: Why is this person ignoring Clarice?

Nice job on Haditha Clarice!

[clarice]

Thanks, Jane.

[JohnH]

Clarice, very good article. I find it hard to keep up with the charges in the media and to know how they were sourced. TM could provide a great public service by having a list of the major charges and noting whether the basis of the charges is from the military, the media, "residents of Haditha" or other.
For example, I believe the video that purports to show evidence of a masacre is from a Haditha man. The alleged photo of women and children "kneeling before being executed" is in doubt and may be misreporting at present. Etc. Could we keep tabs here in some organized way so that we can follow the progress of the case, such as Time's "corrections"?
Anyone else like this idea?

[Carol Herman]

First, let me venture this. Haditha, and it's various name changes, have been a publicity stunt. Murtha is stuck in here, somewhere. Getting information from one commander, Hagee (sp?). Definitely a Clinton buttkissah holdover in our chairborne Pentagon.

Let me guess that if this were rocket science, and we saw the rocket, it would be cracking up. Not exactly a smooth entrry. While some of our Marines are being used as pawns.

Okey Dokey. The donks are getting further away from any goals that involve getting public support.

As to the magazines, there's no hope they change course, now. You know this from Dan RaTHer's departure. Given that they run stories that it's sad. When, instead, it was just long overdue.

How long will free subscriptions keep the magazine's cash flow streaming in? Seems advertisers are wising up, now. And, you can't hand out "free" forever. Nor does it pay to become the butt of all jokes.

So many Americans seem really, really annoyed, now. NOT AT BUSH! As the MSM had been hoping. But instead BY TURNING THE HEAT UP, it's the military honchos who are beginning to see the light.

At least our men are not in chains, anymore.

[Carol Herman]

Also good to remember that every dead civilian's family in Iraq gets $2,500 per body. So we were told the body counts get to be HIGH. And, somebody's handing out the "candy" money. I wonder what those bank withdrawal slips look like? And, if our Marines can have access to the funny money that passes hands rather quickly.

There's reports. And, then there's the cash. Should be interesting to watch the chairborne's flying by on this one.

You ain't seen nothing, yet. Wait till Americans kick butt. Talking of "double-entendre" exposures; you should see the marks on Weasley Clark's butt, when he tried to ascend into the presidency. Never even got to first base!

[clarice]

Thanks, John H. I did two AT pieces on Haditha from which you could easily find what you are looking for and break it out. Since then, 3 more reports have provided additional information:(1) The LA Times report which Tom cites which notes that in the "cover up" investigation, leakers have said the investigators found none;(2) S & L's report about the continuing refusal to allow exhumation and autopsies which I think are essential to make any case. S & L notes correctly, that the longer this refusal continues the harder it will be for forensic examiners to determine the cause of death(3) S & L also has a piece on the CJR interview of McGirk in which he changes his story about the provenance of the video and how he came to get it yet again.

[cathyf]

Well, there is a CYA alternative, which is to discipline higher-ups because they failed to figure out that this would look questionable and thus to act to preserve evidence so that the questions would have been more easily answered.

In other words, the ruling would be that Kilo Co acted appropriately, but it took a months-long multi-million-dollar investigation to figure this out, because it was months after the fact. If the higher-ups had made the judgement "hey, 24 civilians were killed today, get some investigators in there tomorrow to take pictures, collect evidence, look at bodies, etc., so that we can have something to show people who question whether or not the marines were doing the right thing," then they would have nipped the whole controversy in the bud, and robbed the enemy of a propaganda victory.

If that is indeed what happened (marines on the scene followed the rules of engagement, their superiors f***ed up the mop-up and support aftermath) then that would rightly be recognized as a managerial failure on the part of Kilo Co's superior officers.

That seems to be a logical direction that the story is heading. Clear Kilo Co of wrongdoing, while faulting their superiors for allowing the enemy to gain a propaganda victory out of it.

cathy :-)

[verner]

Clarice,

I hope that someone in Diane Irey's team has read your pieces. Great material for campaign ads--along with Murtha's pic with Code Pink.

She might not have a chance of winning, but she sure can take the old ACE democrat down a notch. I just hope that the results of the ethics probe that we've all been hearing rumors about will hit in mid September.

[clarice]

Actually, I think she ought to find a substitute for "WTF" and get --with Tom's permission--a group of singers to do radio spots of TM's OOOkinawa..It wouldn't cost much and ridicule is a better weapon than detailed argument. I'd play that baby 24/7 on every radio and tv station in the district..

[paul]

Funny how the press is leaping on the Haditha story, but pretty much ignored the reports of Kerry chasing a Vietnamese kid in the bush and shooting him in the back.

Both matters should have meritted equal time-Vietnam was a long time ago, but Kerry acted as if it was new.

He seems to be silent on the Haditha story, which is somewhat strange-he was openly making ad hominem attacks against the military 'terrorizing the Iraqi people', but when a specific circumstance comes up, he is absent.

Is he having flashbacks?

[paul]

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2004/story?id=166434&page=1

"In the Silver Star incident, John Kerry's citation reflects that he charged into a numerically superior force, and into intense fire," O'Neill told ABC News in an August 2004 interview. "But the actual facts are that there was a single kid there who had fired a rocket, who popped up, and John Kerry with his gunboat, with or without a number of troops, depending on who you talk to, plopped in front of the kid. The kid was wounded in the legs by machine gun fire, and as he ran off, John Kerry jumped off the boat and shot the kid in the back."

No need to look into this by the MSM...

Swift Boaters? MSM challenges their crediblity.

Haditha? If the same skepticism that was given to the Swift Boaters, was applied to the sources in Iraq, would the story have as much leg?

[ed]

Hmmmm.

What I don't understand, and it might be in some linked article or other and I just missed it, is the amount of time that passed between the killings and the body recovery or investigation.

Did enough time pass for terrorists to either modify the scenes or add to the body count?

[clarice]

Yes, ed. More than enough time.

[PeterUK]

A question which needs to be addressed is,would the "insurgents set up an innocent family to create a propaganda coup,experience tells us yes, they would.
One weakness is the coherent story of the child witness,very odd after an experience that would put most into a lifetime of therapy.

[clarice]

A "coherent story"? Actually there are several (3 0r 4 versions) of it, but she does concede she ducked and covered her ears, knowing that a bomb was about to be exploded..and how would she have known that if the planters weren't were she was?

It got no coverage but on CSpan the other day one of the defense counsel (Puckett) said Jordanian passports not related to the inhabitants of the residence were found in one of the homes were a firefight occurred.

[vnjagvet]

The sources of the LAT article: selective quotes from a "report" about something unspecified but implied.

What is going on at the LAT is reporting gossip before the story has been run down. Not good journalism. More like what journalists accuse bloggers of doing.

I predict that when revealed (which may be a while because now charges are in the military justice system, and some of the report's contents might be prejudicial to the accused and jeopardize any subsequent prosecutions) this report will largely exhonorate those who are now being attacked in this article.

Just a hunch.

[Neo]

There is some kind of real irony having this story next to a Kerry post that mentions the Swiftboat Vets.

OK .. it's the LA Times and not the NY Times, but the irony remains.

[clarice]

As I recall there were three or four incidents in Haditha taking place at the same time..It isn't hard to imagine that communications may have been garbled as they went up the line under those circumstances.

[Enlightened]

Can anyone open this audio from NPR? Apparently Iraq has ended their investigation?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5493963

[Enlightened]

Little Eman knew an IED was ready to blow - yet no one in Haditha reported the insurgents PRIOR to that. So they knew Multi-National Forces were about to be murdered in cold blood. And did nothing. So, my guess is - the isurgents pay them more to keep quiet.

Also posted this quote over at S/L

“Making and planting IED’s cannot be done in a vacuum. Someone - or more likely many – in Haditha were aware of insurgent activities. Although the residents may not be direct participants in the insurgency themselves, they have not provided information to either the US or Iraqi forces. To the soldiers and Marines on the ground, this amounts to tacit cooperation with the insurgents. The biggest complaint among the American troops is not knowing who the enemy is and whom to engage. When troops come under these anonymous IED attacks, they are naturally disposed to strike back. The question is, against whom? It is extremely frustrating for these young soldiers and Marines to get hit with these IED’s, suffer casualties and not be able to respond.”

http://francona.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_francona_archive.ht

[cathyf]

The multiple incidents reenforces the point about command failure. If you have more than one incident going on at the same time, and the HQ officers are getting them mixed up, then that is their failure. Geez, the guys getting shot at are making split-second life-and-death decisions, while their commanders are back there in the comfort of their air-conditioned HQs where they have the luxury of hours/days/weeks to straighten out any initial fog-of-battle confusions. Nobody is impressed by their whinging on that they shouldn't be expected to keep it all straight.

(...and of course the ultimate in being a "f***-up back at HQ" would be Murtha...)

cathy :-)

[clarice]

cathy, I am not saying that is the defense raised by the commanders, I am just saying that it might have played a part.

[Davebo]

Not at all sure I'd call it a coverup, but at a minimum higher ups should have been at least a bit curious when the Marines totally changed their story the first time around.

[clarice]

Who told you they changed their story? I have seen no evidence of that at all. I understand Kilo Company asserts they reported the entire incident.It is possible that command misstated it, but not the troops.

It's the "Hammurabi organization" and Time's McGirk of Arabia who keep changing their stories.

[verner]

Those are good points E. I just don't see how you can dig a hole and plant an IED without the neighborhood knowing. For one, you wouldn't want your kids playing on top of it. I seriously doubt the people in those houses knew nothing about the IED. And if they did, it makes them not quite innocent civilians who need to bear part of the responsibility of keeping their women and children in the area.

But they are so sick, in their mentality, an infant would be a martyr for Allah and therefore expendable.

I hope this doesn't sound too hard hearted--but these are the same people who kept Saddam in power as he slaughtered hundreds of thousands of their fellow Iraqis. Sometimes you kind of reap the whirlwind for that kind of evil, and it is their choice to involve their women and children--not ours. I would imagine that the victims at Haditha are getting much more sympathy from Human Rights Watch than other secular Sunni or Shia--who know what they're like.

[Patton]

I thought I heard a story on Hannity radio show that some weapons experts said there were AK-47 shell casings seen in the pictures and that would show that there were terrorists firing.

Freeper: Also has anyone looked at those supposed shell casings? They look like 7.62 (AK-47) rounds 'rather' than 5.556 NATO
(m-16) casings.

[cathyf]

Who told you they changed their story? I have seen no evidence of that at all. I understand Kilo Company asserts they reported the entire incident.It is possible that command misstated it, but not the troops.

I'm also wondering if command (or some in command) thought that Kilo Company changed their story because they thought that one of the other unit's report from their action was a changed Kelo Company report.

If that is what happened, then, yes, the HQ officers involved ought to be cashiered. Keeping track of which unit was attacked in which way and had what response is their job.

cathy :-)

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
Coherent for a child who has just seen her family shot to death in front of her,further she is a dream witness for the prosecution,a child who can not be treated roughly,an orphan,a little girl,Hollywood couldn't have cast better.
Od is it not,that the family remained in the house when a trip to the mosque or elsewhere would have removed them from the kiling zone,something or someone made the family stay.

[Specter]

Given what we think we know....

The whole point of the investigation is did the Marines come under fire from the house(s) in question. If they did, the result could have been/should have been expected. Maybe that was the plan. But I know if I was a Marine that came under fire from a house I would not just walk up to the door and ask if the "terrorist of the house" was at home. I'd go in guns blazing.

Given that we know the coward insurgents hide behind/among civilians - including women and children, maybe there is a change in some of the ROE due. But again, it seems as if the Marines followed their rules here.

[paul]

Interesting stuff about Haditha provided in "Combat Diary: The Marines of Lima Company". These were the Brook Park marines who were in the same area, before redeployment. The Marines in question are Kilo Company, the ones who got the same AO.

Haditha was mentioned several times, by the soldiers and the parents of the deceased soldiers.

If you have the time-they have it up at their site.

http://www.aetv.com/listings/episode_details.do?episodeid=163325

Riveting and insightful.

[paul]

Nevermind, it just has the promo...

Thank god for TIVO.

[clarice]

There's a lot we don't know about the incident. We've just begin hearing from Kilo Company. I do know, however, that Time has withdrawn the most inflammatory charge, that Sifton of HRW saw a photo of a man kneeling before he was shot. And I know that whatever happened, it will take a great deal to persuade me that this disciplined, well trained company of Marines deliberately shot civilians in "cold blood" (Murtha) in revenge for the murder of a popular member of their group.

[Enlightened]

Specter - "But I know if I was a Marine that came under fire from a house I would not just walk up to the door and ask if the "terrorist of the house" was at home. I'd go in guns blazing."

Do you find it interesting that Eman made a point of saying she could not SEE any of the Marines to Identify them? She only saw their "guns sticking through the door" (paraphrasing)

Interesting how she has vivid recollection of just about everything else, in fact she was even prescient about an IED, yet can't identify any of them?

And her brother - too distraught to talk about it? I can't wait to hear his "testimony".

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
Perhaps "Mad Dog" Murtha is projecting or having flashbacks of Vietnam.

[JohnH]

Clarice
One thing I did not see addressed in your two articles is the hospital chief or whoever it was who alleged that the victims had been shot at close range.
Is the evidence of being shot at close range only from the locals, or is it from the Marines who went there afterward to remove the bodies (did I get this right?) or from the Marine photos that supposedly show execution-style killing?

[clarice]

If you go to my article, I have a hyperlink about the doctor. He has a great deal of anti-American animus. Al-Hadithi (Hammurabi) worked under him for a while and apparently shares those views.

The doctor was the principle source for the shot at close range stuff.And it was he who signed the death certificates for the can't be exhumed dead.
There is some not believable stuff from a member of the company (Briones) who claims his film was taken from him..but he never made this claim until he was charged in a vehicular accident back home and suddenly developed Post traumatic stress syndrome. (He has priors for drug use.)
The snippets of the video (shot by whom and when unknown) is odd--the bodies are well wrapped and you can see nothing of value on that score..Why?

(Also on that CNN snippet you can see bullet pocked walls. Last Sunday's NYT piece says early on thatthe walls have no bullet holes. Though later on in the story they concede the walls may have been replastered.)

[Cecil Turner]

Is the evidence of being shot at close range only from the locals . . .

I'm having a hard time seeing how anyone shot in a house assault could be at other than close range. IMHO, the central question is whether the Marines thought fire came from the house. And the best bit of supporting physical evidence is blast/frag damage from grenades.

[ghostcat]

A quick point: if the Marines did come under fire from the houses, and I believe they did, there would likely be a large number 7.62 Russian (AK-47) casings in those houses after the incident. No surprise there whatsoever.

[Gary Maxwell]

OT

Anyone else see the latest salvo from TNR (on the Plank website) in the Kos/TNR dustup? Appears that the lefty site have an e-mail group set up and its name is " Townhall". Ever notice before how all the big lefty blogs seem to hesitate in respnse to a breaking news item and then seemingly as one, start posting the same talking point? Well it apparently is not a coincidence.

And remember this when some moonbat starts going off about right wing talking points. Its simply projection from their own behavior.

[clarice]

Yes, Cecil I agree.

[Enlightened]

Granted I am not a forensics expert. But something just jumped out at me from this video:
As the camera pans over bodies wrapped in blankets, it comes to a body in a white wrapping, on a bed with a red covering.

Well - the blood stains appear fresh. Very red in color, and have not turned brown from drying and being exposed to the air.

According to the "budding journalist" and other "eyewitnesses" - the Marines closed off the area for HOURS, before dumping the bodies at the morgue. In fact it was stated that the "massacre" took place over 5 hours.

How did that photo of a body with fresh blood get taken? By the time anyone was allowed near the scene - the blood would have been brownish. In fact, by that late hour, the blood would not be wet, and that white covering should not have had any blood stains.

Further - I thought all the families wanted to claim the bodies from teh morgue - why is this body still in a house?

[Enlightened]

Sorry - Here is the video link I am talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7przeLpl2s&search=haditha

[cathyf]

Well, it's months too late to look for AK-47 casings or grenade damage in the houses. If HQ had sent some investigators in during the first few hours, we'd know this stuff. But since command took the "ho-hum, just another 24 civilians killed" attitude, all of that is unknowable now. People can just make up whatever stuff they want and it's really hard to refute it.

cathy :-)

[Patton]

But wouldn't reporting 24 dead civilians most likely kick-off an investigation Cathy? If so and you willing to intentionally murder civilian women and children at point blank range, execution style...
BUT YOU NOT WILLING TO LIE TO HQ IN TH REPORT....

Yeah, some people are dumb enough to believe that..mostly those at Truth Out.

Hey Joe, execute the women and children, but don't you dare lie on our report!!

[Jane]

Gary,

I'm trying to keep up with all the Kos machinations, and I have to admit laughing til my sides ache on more than one occasion. I hope TM posts something about it here so I can hear everyone else's thoughts. The story is going in many directions and I'm getting excited to watch the push back. But then I'm a little weird that way.

[Patton]

And I am not sure how it was done during your service, but we don't routinely send investigators into hostile territory to do investigations of every combat action.

Atr this rate, every combat troop is going to have to take a lawyer with them into combat.

[verner]

"Well - the blood stains appear fresh. Very red in color, and have not turned brown from drying and being exposed to the air."

IN ALL SERIOUSNESS. Maybe you should send an e-mail to this guy:

http://www.drhenrylee.com/about/

It just might be a case he'd be willing to look into pro bono.

[Enlightened]

Verner - I know who Henry Lee is - he spat ketsup in court once to make it look like blood splatter!

But what I'm trying to get at is - the inconsistancy of witnesses saying they were not allowed near the scene for HOURS afterwards, but yet a rather "fresh" looking video was produced - how many months later.

I'm convinced it was a set-up. But I will defer to the experts once we get their reports~

[Carol Herman]

I'd bet there are skid marks under some chairbornes in the Pentagon, now. Reality may be heating up their lives?

For one thing, Murtha's not doing the donks any favors. And, there are big worries among the seated donk congress critters. Could it be there's a direct link between their coffers and their difficulties raising funds? They see their GOP counterparts raising more dough?

We've got problems in Iraq. There are dead American soldiers, killed by the Iraqis they were supposed to be training. That story's not fully out in the open, yet. But one dead soldier's mom (McCaffrey?), is attached to Cindy Sheehan.

The Iraqis are losing their friends. And, they're not gaining much working with the terrorists, either.

I'll bet when this splits open Americans will see the wastage that's gone on with money payoffs. We don't call it "ransom." But we've spent BILLIONS trying to buy peace.

And, according to IRAQ THE MODEL, the Iraqis entertain themselves with rumors.

If Murtha is the donk's Pied Piper, so be it. We'll know by November.

Of course, IF the GOP manages to survive the '06 election intact, that would mean the donk's are also going to be in exactly the same place. Like WW1's Maginot Line. Inches. And, so much flesh torn apart on the barbed wire. Think they keep slugging the same way to November '08?

The one thing that stands out, here, is that during WW2, we had the GREATEST GENERALS! They learned from WW1. And, back then our military was rich in talent. We've got no such general emerging now.

You think the chairborne's don't notice?

When their chairs skid it sounds like chalk screeching across the blackboard. Dosen't grab rapture and attention, does it?

And, if the flagship, NY Slimes is skittering in the gutter; and Kos has a very damaged reputation, now. Exactly what can get fixed, here?

Since Dan RaTHer's discovery that "fake" doesn't describe "accurate" ... how many other careers bite the dust?

Reminds me. Hollywood must have been in a dither, back in 1932, when the Talkies emerged. Cross-over appeal doesn't seem to be something that happens to most stars. Does it?

[ghostcat]

cathyf:

To clarify: Some have said that the presence of 7.62 Russian casings in those rooms would suggest the occupants were shot with AK-47's. It would suggest no such thing. It would only suggest that AK-47's had been fired in those rooms, perhaps at the Marines.

[Semanticleo]

"Sorry Leo. I just have a hard time taking you seriously. I will endeavor to try ... no promises, though."

S'OK. I can wait for your common sense to catch up with your sense of humor.

[clarice]

Enlightened..even Hammurabi says it didn't take this video until the next day. That, of course, is suspect since, they never even mentioned its existence to interviewers a month after the incident and didn't turn it over to anyone until months afterward.

[Sue]

S'OK. I can wait for your common sense to catch up with your sense of humor.

My sense of humor has evolved from my common sense, Leo. ::grin::

[verner]

I agree enlightened. Dr. Lee is a publicity hound, but it has always seemed to me that he knew an awful lot about blood evidence.

Someone adept in forensics could spot a fradulant video, just by examining the blood, and the blood splatters it seems to me. It's just a matter of physics and biology. And do we know that the military is doing that? We know that Time and HRW certainly are not, because if they did, they whould have it screaming in the headlines.

Since the video etc. is now in the public domain, I really wish that some news org. would invest a little time and cash to have someone look at it.

[clarice]

I don't know that it is in the public domain. I have only seen what appears to be snippets on CNN. If this is the entire video it certainly is worthless as a piece of forensic evidence even if we could get past its shadowy provenance (which I don't think we can).

[Gary Maxwell]

Gary,

I'm trying to keep up with all the Kos machinations, and I have to admit laughing til my sides ache on more than one occasion. I hope TM posts something about it here so I can hear everyone else's thoughts. The story is going in many directions and I'm getting excited to watch the push back. But then I'm a little weird that way.

Thats OK I have been known to slow down to rubber nec at a freeway car wreck too. And make no mistake this looks like a nasty multicar accident from where I am sitting.

If they kick the DLC and TNR and Joe Lieberman out, then it will be Kucinich Dean and Kos. And about that many electoral votes too.

[Lurker]

OT: Sound Familiar?

[clarice]

I was just going to post that, lurker! TO and Arrington both having credibility problems at the same time. Oh, Rove, you genius!

[Lurker]

Hhhmmm....this is the article that MacRanger referred Officials: U.S. didn’t find WMDs, despite claims

Larry Johnson? Ray McGovern? Who else?

[Lurker]

:) Don't forget KOS and Armstrong!

So shall we interpret this as a sign of their waning membership numbers?

[clarice]

Let's just say a sign of their diminishing credibility in the original reality.

[Gary Maxwell]

If you start with little to no credibility and then diminish it, can you end up with negative credibility? Something like everyone assume you are lying on anything coming out of your mouth? Cuz that is where Jason at TruthNot is, and seems to be where Kos is heading rapidly. As Jeanne Kirkpatrick told the UN, I will be down at the dock waving a hearty farewell.

[clarice]

And now Arrianna--her own staffer trlling her own blogger and then cutting him off when he complained..and this just after she ran a column purportedly by George Clooney that was a fake..

[PaulV]

the exposure of KOS fraund and double dealing will get him where it hurts-his wallet

[Rick Ballard]

Gary,

I wonder where the show trials will be held?

[cathyf]

And I am not sure how it was done during your service, but we don't routinely send investigators into hostile territory to do investigations of every combat action.

Not every combat action results in the deaths of 24 civilians. In the midst of a war where one of the enemy's most common, and successful, "combat" tactics is to gin up fake war crimes accusations.

If the patrol had come under fire and had asked for air support, and the commanders said, "Nah, we don't routinely send aircraft into hostile territory to do air support for every combat action," that would be an outrage. The war criminals in Iraq use fake charges as a weapon like lawful combatants use guns and artillary. If you are going to win the war, you've got to fight back against the tactics that the enemy uses.

cathy :-)

[cathyf]

If you start with little to no credibility and then diminish it, can you end up with negative credibility?

Nah, it's sorta like zeno's paradox. Each hit to your cred drops it by 50%, but you can stay epsilon above zero forever.

cathy :-)

[Carol Herman]

Poor Arianna. We know Nixon's ghost is getting its revenge, now; with the departure of Dan RaTHer from the Cyclop's 'eye.' Nope. A journey without tears.

And, then Arianna, if she looked in the rear view mirror, would see what Piscasso thinks of her now. On re-entry, her spaceship's been shattered.

I also gather Breitbart, whom she snookered away from Drudge; has also departed? Since Drudge has him back as a "news source." And, this seems to be a much more profitable internet business than Huffington's Post.

I doubt that careerists in the millitary aren't aware of a freeze on the Clinton's "rising stars."

And, Had-da-ditha-do-ya has some smudged made by commander Hagee. Same boat for him as Kapinski's, I think. And, Madeline UNbright.

Donald Rumsfeld was RIGHT! The military needed to change from "tank men" ... with boatloads of funds from the budget; to a smoother operating system. Seems they've got it in "modules." The door's gonna swing down on some of these chairbornes. Let alone, all the hocus-pocus with billions that's gone into shoring up Iraq, by purchasing hostile civilians.

[paul]

Is there a solid witness to the massacre? Can I call it a massacre if it was just one guy? I thought they killed 24, and wasn't Murtha saying there were more?

He saw pics and jumped to a conclusion...
I just read the Hartford Courant, but it was combined wire services-

http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-marines0622.artjun22,0,907469.story?coll=hc-headlines-nationworld

All that is mentioned is the alleged execution of the wrong guy.

I have a feeling that the investigation is more about the break down in actually following rules of reporting any civilian deaths, and the investigation has come to fuel consopiracy theorists.

Is there any account of the massacre other than Time and Al-Jazeera? More charges pending or is that it?

[Patton]

""If you are going to win the war, you've got to fight back against the tactics that the enemy uses.""

That's not fighting back, thats wasting time and setting yourself up for ambushes.

Gee, if the enemy knows everytime they report the killing of civilians an investigative team is going to show up the next day..that's pretty handy information for someone trying to kill you.

That's giving the enemy the ability to control your forces, to you having to constantly respond to propaganda rather then execute your plans.

Your are assuming that there is some fair, unbiased organization that is going to care about the findings of any investigation.

[Patton]

"ho-hum, just another 24 civilians killed"

Whoever in the Chain of Command is quoted as saying this should be fired.

[Jane]

Capt ed reports: Iraq To Offer Amnesty And American Withdrawal To Insurgents, and how the democrats could have blown it, with their votes yesterday.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007287.php

[Lurker]

I don't think it would yield the desired effect, though.

For those that harp about Rummy shaking hands with Saddam in the earlier years, check the link below:

U.S. Secretary of Defense shaking hands with a dictator.

Flopping Aces's post today covers the Anti-americanism in South Korea, in spite of what we had done for them.

HHHmmmm...

Ny Times leaks again! Risen and Lichtblau stretch their noose

A mixture of old news and some new news but probably for a specific reason....

Ya think the dems and lefties would be screamining and shilling over this?

Mac says:

"The word is that there will be a showdown extraordinair between the DOJ and several media outlets - the Ny Times is of specific interest, in at least two probes. More on that later."

The Patriot Act covered this financial program already but the media's ignoring this.

Mac Ranger, Hot Air, NRO, etc. are jumping in ahead of the game.

Read it.

[Lurker]

I read something about the ACLU filing FOIA requests. Check Hot Air about these details. Sickening. Mac's idea of filing lawsuits against NYT may be a good idea.

[Lurker]

AT has an article about the Columbians embracing democracy. I may need to double check but I believe that Robert Kaplan devoted a chapter to Columbia where our imperial grunts spent their time training the local Columbians to fight against the guerlla forces . They've done other things as well. Apparently, they've done some good and the local Columbians are seeing the benefits.

There needs to be something done against ANSWER.

[cathyf]

"ho-hum, just another 24 civilians killed"

Whoever in the Chain of Command is quoted as saying this should be fired.

I never said this was a quote -- it was a derisive summary of their (apparent) attitude. Much snarkier than the official "command missed red flags" wording.

Look, according to all accounts, the marines had a secure perimeter around the battle site for hours after the battle. And nobody took out a camera? This is 2006 -- even in 1969 John Kerry could come up with battle pictures, and he had nothing like the technology we have now. The British have already gone through an entire trial of soldiers based upon trumped-up charges, and it cost them millions of pounds for their trouble. When you have the area secured like everybody agrees this battlefield was, the marines should walk through the battle, and produce a report with pictures and diagrams. Like: here's a picture of the taxicab, here's where we were, here's the windows that the gunshots were coming from, here's the door we went in, here's the walls pockmocked with grenade and bullet fragments, here's the pile of AK-47 shells under the window they were shooting at us from, here's the next room we went into, here's the bloodstains, the walls with grenade fragments, etc., etc.

We know that the marines would have written an after-action report. In a war where our enemies tell lies about us as their only really successful tactic, we have to fight back. And having as complete an after-action report as possible is part of fighting back.

cathy :-)

[Lurker]

Appalling DUmp reaction to the Miami bust

[Gary Maxwell]

CathyF

You brought back an old college memory and made me laugh. Thank you.

My college prof for econ principles used to try to explain Zenon's paradox and the Calculus use of limits together. He would ask us rhetorically if a boyfriend and his girlfriend standing on opposite sides of Grand River Avenue and approaching each other from opposite sides such that they got 1/2 again closer each minute. Will they ever meet?

Of course after a pause he would respond to his own question with " NO, but they will get close enough for all practical purposes."

It always got a laugh.

[Patton]

Cathyf,
Big waste of time for our troops that the media will never believe and report it as a cover-up.

If Time is willing to report pictures of executions of civilians without ever seeing the photo....

I can imagine what they would do with all the post combat footage you would be collecting and the ACLU would be submitted FOIA requests for.

It would be a complete disaster on the battlefield and a great coup for the enemy...

Who do you believe this would justify anything to? The media? the UN? Every picture/footage would inspire 100 more questions, 100 more gotchas, 1000 more manhours to justifying rathering then fighting.

These aren't cops, these are soldiers fighting a war. We didn't spend the rest of WWII trying to explain and justify the D-Day invasion.

[Gary Maxwell]

Noel Sheppard on a subject that will make you smile. Read em and weep Nancy and Harry

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/the_deflating_democrats.html>The Deflating Democrats

[Gary Maxwell]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/the_deflating_democrats.html>The Deflating Democrats

[Pat]

The little girl knew the IED was going to go off? If she knew, her parents and neighbors knew. And if they failed to warn the Marines they were aiding and abetting the terorists. Didn't Moussaoui just miss the death penalty because he failed to warn the FBI about 9/11? I don't see much difference. The only excuse the Iraqi civilians had would be that they were threatened to stay quiet. But none of them have said that.

[clarice]

The ACLU has already filed a FOIA request re Haditha.

[Sue]

So now, when a soldier comes under fire, not only do they have to worry about staying alive, they have to worry if they are going to be charged for a criminal act?

Bring them home. Stop the pretense that we are fighting a war and bring them home.

[clarice]

Lot's of anger at the NYT's latest breach of national security re its report (published despite a bi-partisan appeal that it not do so) of our tracking the financial dealings of the terrorists. Here's Ed Morrissey:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007288.php

[Lurker]

I may take up on Michelle's advise by emailing my anger to NYT. So glad I NEVER did a paid subscription to NYT. I did an electronic subscription to NYT a long time ago but I will NOT give them another one.

Boycott NYT and LATimes.