Haditha - What Happened?

The NY Times puts some reportorial muscle into the mystery of what happened at Haditha:

Contradictions Cloud Inquiry Into 24 Iraqi Deaths

 

By JOHN M. BRODER

 

This article was reported by John M. Broder, David S. Cloud, John Kifner, Carolyn Marshall, Eric Schmitt and Thom Shanker, and was written by Mr. Broder.

What really happened in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005?

On that day, marines killed 24 Iraqi civilians, including 10 women and children and an elderly man in a wheelchair. But how and why it happened and who ultimately bears responsibility are matters of profound dispute.

Interviews with marines who were present that day or their lawyers, Iraqi residents who witnessed the attack and military investigators provide broadly conflicting accounts of the killings. This article, based on those interviews, does not resolve those discrepancies. But it does lay bare the task facing investigators as they try to square the accounts with ambiguous forensic evidence, and suggests that the work will be hindered by the passage of time, the tricks of memory and the fog of fast-paced action at several different locations in Haditha, a tense Euphrates River valley city, seven months ago.

Investigators and townspeople have said that marines overreacted to a fatal roadside bombing and shot the civilians, only one of whom was armed, in cold blood.

Marines and their lawyers, who are only now beginning to speak out after months of harsh portrayals of their actions, contend that they believed they were under a concerted attack, and entitled under their rules of engagement to use lethal force against those who they believed were responsible for a roadside bomb that killed a marine.

The 24 Iraqis killed included 5 men in a taxi and 19 other civilians in several houses, where, marines have contended, their use of grenades and blind fire was permitted under their combat guidelines when they believed their lives were threatened.

However, investigators have found evidence that the men in the taxi were not fleeing the bombing scene, as the marines have told military officials. Investigators have also concluded that most of the victims in three houses died from well-aimed rifle shots, not shrapnel or random fire, according to military officials familiar with the initial findings.

The houses where the killings took place show no evidence of the violent room-clearing assault described by the marines and their lawyers, the officials said.

The bodies have not yet been exhumed for autopsies, and defense lawyers can be expected to challenge the narrow use of photographic evidence on these points. But according to two people briefed on the investigation, one member of the Marine squad at Haditha, himself closely tied to some of the deaths, is now cooperating with investigators.

 

And they go on, in detail, with helpful graphics.

A useful complement is this June 11 WaPo article which presents the first detailed version from the one of the marines under investigation.

Here is just one of the problem areas in the differing accounts:

The marines have said they believed they were coming under small-arms fire from a house on the south side of the road. A four-man "stack" of marines, led by Sergeant Wuterich, who up to that point had no combat experience but was the senior enlisted man on the scene, broke into the house.

They found no one in the first room, but heard noises behind a door. A marine with experience in the deadly house-to-house fighting in Falluja a year earlier rolled in a grenade and another marine fired blind "clearing rounds" into the room, Mr. Puckett, Sergeant Wuterich's lawyer, said.

The technique is known as "clearing by fire," said a marine who was with a nearby squad that day but who asked not to be identified because his role in the events is under investigation. "You stick the weapon around and spray the room," he said. "It's called prepping the room."

However, investigators saw it differently:

This account, however, does not square with the survivors' recollections and the conclusions of the military's preliminary investigation led by Col. Gregory Watt of the Army.

For several reasons, Colonel Watt does not believe the marines' version is accurate, according to a military official who has been briefed on the investigation but who would not discuss it on the record because it was not yet complete.

Colonel Watt has interviewed more than two dozen people, including all the marines in the First Squad, their reinforcements and Iraqi civilians in Haditha, including the morgue director.

Some marines told Colonel Watt they were let into the houses they entered; others said they conducted forced entries, the military official said. Colonel Watt was also troubled by the fact that marines did not change their tactics after discovering that they had killed unarmed civilians in the first house, the official said. A dozen more civilians were killed after the first encounter.

The wounds of the dead Iraqis, as seen in photographs and viewed by the morgue director, were not consistent with attacks by fragmentation grenades and indiscriminate rifle fire, Colonel Watt found. The civilian survivors said the victims were shot at close range, some while trying to protect their children or praying for their lives. The death certificates Colonel Watt examined were chillingly succinct: well-aimed shots to the head and chest.

Inconsistent Evidence

In addition, if the marines had violently cleared the houses using automatic weapons and fragmentation grenades, there would be lots of damage and bullet marks in the walls. Early investigators said they found no such evidence, although the walls may have been patched before they arrived.

And this fact (emphasis added) certainly suggests that something is amiss:

About a dozen enlisted marines, including Sergeant Wuterich and Sergeant Wolf, who engaged in or witnessed the shootings are under investigation for possible charges ranging from dereliction of duty to murder. A number of their superiors, up to the division level, are also under scrutiny for failing to report the events accurately and respond appropriately.

Two mid-level officers, including Captain McConnell, have already been relieved, for reasons not yet made public.

Gary Myers, a lawyer who has been retained by a marine under investigation in the Haditha shooting, said he had been told by his client that the marines were operating within existing regulations. Mr. Myers suggested that responsibility should be placed on the commanders who approved those rules of engagement, and not on the soldiers on the ground at Haditha. "I don't want to see these marines isolated and vilified," he said.

Lots of reax at Memeorandum.

Comments

[clarice]

Wuterich's lawyer, Puckett , was on C-Span and said a number of Jordanian passports had been found in oneof the three houses where the firefight occurred. And they were not of the residents of the house.

Sweetness& Light still has the most detailed accounts of the press coverage; Riehlworldview and the Waldon article in Hawaii Report come in second and third.
Please note how most of the NYT account is anonymously sourced..and refers to undidentified photographs (taken by whom and when?).

[Rick Ballard]

What purpose is served by reasing even the information that an investigation into the reporting on the incident at Haditha is complete?

This just reeks of command influence at its worst. A steady dribble of negative reporting with fingers pointing down rather than up.

[Dwilkers]

Two mid-level officers, including Captain McConnell, have already been relieved, for reasons not yet made public.

I keep seeing this highlighted as significant so I guess if we're going to talk about Haditha here I need to say it.

The relieving of the officers is utterly meaningless. They would be relieved no matter what in a matter of this kind. The very first thing the command would do in this situation is put those officers behind a desk and they would do it for the duration of the investigation no matter what was developing.

And BTW? Those officer's careers are over at this point, and have been since the Time article in all likelihood. They will never rise in rank in the USMC now no matter what, even if they are fully exonerated of malfeasance of any sort.

They might as well start looking for a job at Walmart because they are not going to be in the USMC any longer.

[CS]

The article seems to say that all the forensic evidence the investigator viewed was second-hand: photos he didn't take, death certificates he didn't sign, testimony from survivors and officials, all of whom presumably were aggrieved or sympathetic to (or intimidated by) the "resistance." The investigator's focus on the Marines' not having changed tactics after the first civilian fatalities doesn't address the essential question, whether the ROE were followed.

I'm not saying anything about what happened. My only point is that the article doesn't advance our understanding much, except to show the investigatory mindset.

I'm a little surprised that TM sees the officers' being relieved as significant. As Dwilkers points out, the reliefs were inevitable, and the officers are well and truly screwed, blued and tattooed, whatever the judicial outcome.

[clarice]

Tip--We have in the works at AT what I think will knock the blocks off this story--YAHOO

[MayBee]

Interesting about the Jordanian passports.

I've been wondering about the bus going to Syria/Jordan that was hijacked a few days before Zarqawi was killed. I know at least some of the passengers were released, but I haven't heard the final disposition.

[richard mcenroe]

There were published reports that the new commanding officer of the Marine unit stated the officers were NOT relieved as a result of Haditha. Was that, er, no longer operative, or is the the Times working from dated or selective information?

[MayBee]

clarice- I just want to applaud you and Sweetness and Light. You guys have been dogged on this story.

[MayBee]

I meant that as in dogged determination. Not like any bad kind of dogged.

[Cecil Turner]

Well, after reading all that, I'm still not much smarter. My initial reading of the taxi incident was that the Marines claimed they were fleeing in the vehicle. On re-reading, I see that was not explicit. If that's the main difference in testimony, it relies on details not yet reported. Similarly, the difference between "well aimed shots" and "clearing rounds" is not dispositive ("quick kill" shots at close range may well appear "aimed"). Grenade damage would be a bit more evident, but even those don't do a huge amount of damage. I'd be interested to see ammunition expenditure reports.

And I'm with TM on the relief of the officers. If the story were to be "regrettable, but fully in accordance with current ROE," the officers would not have been relieved (or at least not the seniors in the chain). In particular, relief of the battalion commander suggests those above him in the chain were not happy with his handling of the incident (and subsequent investigation).

[Jane]

Clarice,

I insist on a hint - or at least an expected release date.

[Carol Herman]

If you follow the money, you find the top commanders are taking graft (or retirements) on the Saudi's dollars. That's motive, enough.

Not that you can see many Americans lining up to make the "Wesley Clark's" our world leader, ya know?

In other words, there really is a downside.

As the commander at Camp Pendelton (where the commander signed the order to hold American Marines, and one Navy Seal, in chains!) He's discovered the MSM doesn't provide the fanfare necessary to cover his royal behind. (Yes, a different case.)

But the SAME problem! Our Pentagon "chairbornes" (nice when they fly out the windows) are in cahoots with our enemies.

Maybe, some ventured this as a good career move? Maybe, some thought they wouldn't get caught. And, they'd laugh all the way to the bank.

Hardly likely, now. More like reputations taken to the shredders. As Bush's numbers pop up (they weren't really all that "down.") And, the handwriting is appearing on the wall. "THE SAUDIS ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS!"

Given that the one number you can watch is the "support" number for our troops. And, you begin to realize it's summer. And, the donks are not exactly racing towards majority seating, anywhere ... You can spook the commanders.

But don't let up the pressure!

[clarice]

Jane, I can't give you a date, but I'm hoping it will be soon.

[clarice]

Cecil, don't foget there are TWO investigations going on. I think those guys may be involved in the investigation dealing with how the incident was reported. On one hand as I recall there were three incidents in the same general area occurring at the same time so there may have been confusion when the reports came in.OTOH they may not have followed procedure and may have misreported the incident, but the guys in Kilo Company seem insistent they reported it accurately.

[Cecil Turner]

I think those guys may be involved in the investigation dealing with how the incident was reported.

I think so, too. But there wouldn't be any "there" there if the consensus was that the initial shootings were righteous. (Which doesn't necessarily mean they weren't.)

[Dwilkers]

The relief of the Battalion command was about the Time article, not about the actual events at Haditha. The reliefs were announced April 12th, the action in Haditha was Novemebr 19th.

Time Magazine article on March 27, relieved of command on April 12th. I'm a bit surprised it took 2 weeks but only a bit.

It is a different issue and unrelated to the facts of what happened in Haditha, and really doesn't indicate even indirectly whether there was anything amiss in what happened that day last November.

They were relieved for "lack of confidence in their leadership abilities", which is the Marine Corps' way of saying "You guys are going to take the fall. Start planning for civilian life".

[Rick Ballard]

Cecil,

Wasn't the green lieutenant responsible for writing the initial report of the incident? I keep thinking that relieving the company commander and the regiment commander may have had something to do with a SOP concerning provision of close supervision to new lieutenants. I'm not faulting the lieutenant at all and I don't know that such an SOP exists but I remember from Yon's reporting that close supervision and support of new officers was common up in Mosul.

It may be that the lieutenant left interpretation of the ROE in effect that day to the more experienced NCO - or that the new lieutenant had not been fully briefed by his CO as to the current ROE prior to what was supposed to be a routine daily mission.

I don't quite understand why the report is being talked about without being released - it's not helpful.

[Other Tom]

Clarice--when do you expect to publish? And can you give us any hints?

[clarice]

No. I'm hoping soon. It's from an outside source who responded to something I wrote, and he seems to have some real expertise.

[Carol Herman]

Lucianne is headlining one of these scandals.

And, the best comment says: "WHEN THEY FEEL THE HEAT THEY SEE THE LIGHT."

Another one wrote that Clinton's buttkissahs have not been weeded out of the Pentagon.

However, as the donks slink towards a miserable November, the real summer HEAT isn't going to go to Algore's movie. The sinking increase in pressure as well is on all the dogs who gambled with Joe Wilson, and lost it there, too.

What's a reputation look like when it's shredded? Someday, Fitzgerald's will define ONE answer. And, dan raTHer, who did get away with a treasonous crime, is still left sucking the egg on his face.

See if I care? C-BS tzuris don't interesting me at all.

[clarice]

It is true, BTW, that more and more retired military brass are joining ex-diplos on the Saudi tit. And I may be wrong but I think Hagee was one of those Clintinoids pc weak sisters promoted for ass kissing.

[Cecil Turner]

It is a different issue and unrelated to the facts of what happened in Haditha, and really doesn't indicate even indirectly whether there was anything amiss in what happened that day last November.

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. There's no doubt the USMC is sensitive to press reports (and works very hard to manage its image), but the idea that those are unrelated is hard to credit. Again, if the initial incident had been righteous, and the reporting accurate, there would be no reason for relief.

I keep thinking that relieving the company commander and the regiment commander may have had something to do with a SOP concerning provision of close supervision to new lieutenants.

I suspect it had more to do with the subsequent investigation and reporting. (BTW, it was the BN C.O.)

I don't quite understand why the report is being talked about without being released - it's not helpful

Concur completely. And that says something about the reliability of those particular statements, IMHO.

[clarice]

All anonymous, Cecil though at one point they try to make it appear they aren't..and most appear to be from early in the investigation. In any event Wuterich has been promoted since the incident..what does that tell you?

S & L wrote me that one of the "witnesses" is quoted in the piece saying something utterly at odds with initial reports of this witness testimony. He (she?) says only 2 houses were involved, and now says he had shrapnel wounds.
As to the video from Hammurabi--only snippets were run (on CNN)..interspersed with pics from Abu Ghraib (UGH) and they show wrapped up bodies, bullet pocked walls, bloody rooms..not a single pic useful in forensic examination of the wounds.
The NYT quotes someone as saying the walls weren't bullet pocked as one would expect if there had been an incident as Kilo reported. B.S. the CNN clip had bullet pocked walls. Later on the NYT quotes someone as saying the walls could have been replastered since.
The families are reportedly still blocking an exhumation and autopsy of the remains.

I have more, but I don't want to get ahead of what we are going to run.

[Daddy]

I post this simply for educational purposes of those who have never been in the military. I was a Naval Officer and a Naval Aviator. I was chosen as the investigating squadron officer of a relatively straight-forward case where a service member of a particular racial group was accused of stealing from a fellow squadron member of that same racial group. Evidence indicated that the accused was guilty of the alleged crime. The accused contacted his Congressman, Ron Dellums, as was his right, and I was shortly thereafter "RELIEVED OF MY DUTIES" as the investigating officer concerning this case. Another squadron officer was appointed in my stead and the accused individual was eventually convicted. I pass this on for the education of the readers of this post, so that upon reading highlighted newspaper articles
stating that "so and so was relieved of his duties as investigating officer" etc, they don't all have cows. but instead figure out that once again the media is ignorant, and ignorantly attemptting to spin the audience as if this is some abborant catastrophehe..

[Rick Ballard]

Cecil,

You wrote "I'd be interested to see ammunition expenditure reports." - are those reports required every time ammo is epended or only when ammo supplies are refreshed? I think I understand what you were saying - that if the Marines were taking fire it should be reflected in the amount of ammo expended in return fire - but I'm not positive that was your intent.

[Cecil Turner]

In any event Wuterich has been promoted since the incident..what does that tell you?

Not much, unfortunately, since his selection would have been much earlier (almost certainly before the incident in question).

Later on the NYT quotes someone as saying the walls could have been replastered since.

That struck me as well. A couple grenade blasts would leave relatively minor damage (despite what Hollywood depicts), and the latter info isn't very useful.

I pass this on for the education of the readers of this post, so that upon reading highlighted newspaper articles stating that "so and so was relieved of his duties as investigating officer" etc, they don't all have cows.

Not sure what your point is here. Being relieved as investigating officer is in fact a minor issue. Being relieved as commanding officer is a career-ending event (and not minor at all).

I think I understand what you were saying - that if the Marines were taking fire it should be reflected in the amount of ammo expended in return fire . . .

I just meant it'd be a good indicator on whether or not grenades were used (the main provable difference in the versions). And I'm not sure how the expenditure reports are done. (In peacetime, IIRC, it was normally by usage.)

[crosspatch]

What I read in one of the articles quoting the lawyer(s) of at least one of the Marines involved, it certainly seemed to suggest that there were two houses involved and they DID stop after the second house turned out to have only civilians. I can understand not tightening the ROE after the first house because at that point you assume "fluke". After the second house you assume "pattern" and then stop and take stock of what you have been doing. Apparently they did this, and that would be normal and expected.

Had they been on some kind of rampage, one wouldn't expect them to stop after the second house. They would have tried to go from house to house until they were stopped by some outside influence or ran out of ammunition or ran out of houses to enter.

[ghostcat]

As this story unfolds, I want to learn more about the actions of LCpl Roel Breones. So far, we know (a) that he was very close to the Marine killed at the outset of this incident, (b) that he has been in serious trouble with civilian law enforcement in CA, both prior to and subsequent to this incident, (c) that he was the first Marine to get his story to the MSM, via his mother, and (d) that he is claiming Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder ... presumably as his civilian defense. Those limited facts set my own spidey sense atingle. May be nothing more than it appears. But I want more information on Briones.

[PaulV]

I doubt that you can get much information about Briones because he is in a worle of trouble. I expect he is making up stories to get off on the crimes he has commited since getting home from Iraq. He is not even as the Iraqis related to the insurgents and the Iraqis who want blood money.

[Carol Herman]

Don't let "cash flow" go unnoticed.

With Zar-holy-cowie dead, and the computer "drives" confiscated; you never know what shows up. But part of what should show up is the flow-of-dough. Given that the terrorists paid CASH for favors ...

Just as the Saudi tit feeds some buttkissah clinton holdovers well ...

There's still the reality of living under the light of day.

In Iraq, IF we've turned the tides. (And, the ratio of killed terrorists is climbing, nicely), there may be some who gamble on the horses they ride? So they jump. Squat. And, re-embroider their text. I wouldn't be surprised if the case against the Marines (and the one Navy Seal) dissolves. "Pooled blood seen in photographs" aren't exactly banner pieces of incriminating evidence.

And, even Sistani knows he can't push against the Americans in any way that's OBVIOUS. So, the arabs will do what they do best. They'll run into their tents. And, hide. And, come out when they can clearly see whose winning.

As to the commanders who have gone against a few soldiers; going beyond a wise way to hold them in jail, I think they're feeling the heat! Not just here. Drudge runs these headlines, high. Hannity is on the chase. And, the Internet is the roused tiger.

The Japs weren't the only ones spooked by Pearl Harbor, ya know? Though they did notice it's not wise to wake "sleeping tigers."

Camp Pendleton is even getting it's own "walk-a-thon" by concerned citizens. And, you'd be surprised.

Heck, Glenn Reynolds just slapped Bibbray for LYING. For running on a campaign to cut pork. And, then he gets sworn in and votes the other way. (Well, there is November!)

People who read blogs tend to have a better retention of events than the mindless who watch the nutworks drivel.

Sure. The MSM and hollyweird haven't grabbed a decent selling story in a long, long time. Doesn't mean some of this stuff doesn't just jump off the page.

I'll predict that in November the real damage to the donk party will become more apparent.

And, a few of the pentagon's buttkissahs will be seeking news way to deploy.

Better question, why aren't these commanders learning some bitter lessons from Wesley Clark's fall from grace? You don't think that his pratfall, while running for the presidency, hurt? Egos like that are not immune.

[Jane]

People who read blogs tend to have a better retention of events than the mindless who watch the nutworks drivel.

If so it is because they are younger, I would guess.

[ghostcat]

I forgot one more "known fact" about LCpl Briones. According to his mother, he took pictures of some or all of the bodies, using his own personal camera. He says he was ordered to do so by his superiors, who then (IIRC) confiscated his camera and never returned it. Plausible, but certainly interesting in the context of the other facts. Again, it may all signify little or nothing. I want to know more.

[cathyf]

People who read blogs tend to have a better retention of events than the mindless who watch the nutworks drivel.

That's because when you are plopped in front of the teevee, watching the news with the laptop perched on your knees cruising the blogs, you get the head-to-head competition. And the blogs just win hands down!

cathy :-)

[Specter]

What do you mean by younger?

[Patton]

Glad to see the Democrats saddling up next to the Ditzy Chicks.

Natalie Maines knows where they stand:

Quote: "The entire country may disagree with me, but I don't understand the necessity for patriotism," Maines says, through gritted teeth. "Why do you have to be a patriot? About what? This land is our land? Why? You can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… I don't see why people care about patriotism."

i completely understand I feel just a warm about North Korea and Bangladesh.

America, F--k Yeah!

VOTE DEMOCRAT, WE DON'T SEE THE NECESSITY FOR PATRIOTISM!

[wkseib]

I recall reading Tom Friedman's Longitudes and Attitudes - his tour of the Saudi and the mideast right after 911. One of the main themes stressed in that book is the way that culture views dealings with outsiders when giving testimony, engaging in debates, etc. No Muslim or Arab will deviate from the party line, no matter how preposterous, when dealing with investigators/debaters/questioners from outside the tribe. I think this has been adequately reflected in the last three years in the pro forma atrocity reports of every Sunni doctor in every Sunni emergency room in Iraq, in every "eyewitness" report in just about every contentious event that has occurred since the start of the war. I just wish that point would be mentioned in passing whenever the MSM is presenting this type of "evidence" in their reporting.

[Jane]

What do you mean by younger?

Younger than me - since my once steel trap mind now leaks like a sieve.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

Maybe you got hooked in the same scheme I fell for - that sure was a pretty collander and I hadn't been using the steel trap for a while anyway. It seemed like a good trade at the time.

[Lurker]

AJStrata has a great post:

Time to support Irey.

P.S. Anyone know anything about this "noagenda.org" by going to noagenda.org site, click on pelosi and scroll down articles on the right for one Murtha ethics question. Looks like the data is old but anything new about it?

[Jane]

Maybe you got hooked in the same scheme I fell for - that sure was a pretty collander and I hadn't been using the steel trap for a while anyway. It seemed like a good trade at the time.

Rick,

Ugh. Ten years ago you could not have convinced me this swap was possible. I'm used to it now, but it was very scary in the beginning.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

The Japs weren't the only ones spooked by Pearl Harbor, ya know? Though they did notice it's not wise to wake "sleeping tigers."

Easy on the "Jap" thing, some of us won't take it well.

[Patton]

Easy Charlie, alot of Americans died fighting the Japs so that their Children and Grandchildren didn't have to live under Japanese tyranny and be told we had to bow to their emperor.

My answer, they started, we finished it. I am sure they would have treated us much worse if they had one. Even the Japs should be grateful.

[Patton]

I am going to have to pull a Drive-by media/Jersey Girl here and say that I lost family members who were killed by the Japanese in WWII so you have no right to question me...I will call Matt Lauer on you!

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/death_march.html

[M. Simon]

Did you mean like younger than 62?

I qualify.

[Jane]

M.Simon,

Oh I'd go even earlier than that. But yeah, you get the picture.

[Patton]

Why is it when it involves our military, the media use terms like ATROCITY, MASSACRE, WAR CRIME..
by when Al Queda blows up a bus full of students in is a terrorist INCIDENT.

[Lurker]

A mixture of RoveGate and Haditha:

Rovegate is dead - next pack of lies

[Lurker]

Moonbats rush to judgment by Jack Kelly

Mostly about Fitz, Rove, liberal reaction to Rove non-indictment (and why the liberals didn't go after Armitage), etc. Clarice's name is mentioned.

[MayBee]

I'm just going to jump in and say the term "japs" is perhaps not the most current way to refer to the Japanese.

[Patton]

Look at the sentence context, the term was used to refer to Japanese at the time of Pearl Harbor.

Would you tell a Holocaust survivor they aren't allowed to call the guards at Treblinka Nazis??

[SunnyDay]

Frontline hit piece on Cheney and the rationale for Iraq war

I just saw the ad for this.

[Cecil Turner]

Oh, there's a shocker. Note the references for the PBS hit-piece:

Extended interviews with former members of the U.S. intelligence community . . .

I love it. Someone ought to do a piece on how many times the VIPS bubbas managed to play their MSM fellow-travellers. (Kinda pitiful, actually . . . if the puppet-masters are guys like Big Lar, how dumb do you have to be to play one of his puppets?)

[SunnyDay]

I started to post the press release, but wasn't sure what their policy is re linking and copying.

They always do a nice presentation, but they definitely go in with a POV, and look for the "background" info that will support that POV. No shortage of that.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Easy Charlie, alot of Americans died fighting the Japs so that their Children and Grandchildren didn't have to live under Japanese tyranny and be told we had to bow to their emperor.

Patton, don't even think to try that on me: my father was wounded 4 times in the Pacific and then spent 2 years as the Occupation officer in Shingu in Wakayama-ken. As a fairly direct result I'm heading to the local Japanese Buddhist temple for o-Bon, the Festival of the Dead, this very afternoon.

"Jap" grates on my ear much as "nigger" does, and every time you use it I'll call you out for the offensive and racist term.

I'm serious: if you wouldn't call a black man a nigger to his face, don't use the term "Jap" to, or around, me.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Would you tell a Holocaust survivor they aren't allowed to call the guards at Treblinka Nazis??

Would you call a German a Nazi now?

Tell you what, Patton: you call the Japanese japs, and I'll call you "fucking asshole."

[Carol Herman]

PC is a disease.

I don't care what words rankle anyone's ears. I'm not into speech monitors.

Sometimes, you can tell from a word, where the person is going.

Japs is a good indicator that they fought like savages. Lost at WW2; and our best general, Douglas MacArthur, brought sanity to that island of hardworking men and women. WHo had been kept insulated.

In other words, if the work ethic is there, people can adapt. Democracy is something wonderful to behold.

And, it's the commies who went heavy into PC speech. Can't make me mad, what people say. It's a pretty good indicator, if you don't handicap them, to get to know what' they're thinking. Otherwise, we'd all still be hooked on Latin.

[ghostcat]

FWIW, I'm with Charlie. And I am an Ann Coulter fan.

[Barney Frank]

Well the "Japs" may have fought savagely but that hardly justifies an epithet with racial overtones does it? They fought savagely and committed war crimes because they're humans not because they're eyes are narrower than caucasians.
Both sides in our civil war ran POW camps not too far removed from Japanese POW camps. Does that merit ethnic smears for the north and south?
What country or ethnicity hasn't similarly earned a derogatory nickname if we apply an equal standard?

[Rick Ballard]

"Japs is a good indicator that they fought like savages."

The Japanese fought in conformance to the code of Bushido which the west identified as savagery. I don't think that the Code of Westphalia is necessarily the epitome of western thought. It has been honored more often in the breach than in its observance.

Kinder gentler wars have a propensity to take more lives and cause more damage than do wars fought with brief savagery - I would offer Iraq today as an example.

Racial epithets and their use are enlightening - just perhaps not in the manner that the user intended.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Carol, if you want to be a fucking asshole too, that's your choice.

I'm serious: if you wouldn't call a black man a nigger to his face, don't use the word "jap" around me.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Japs is a good indicator that they fought like savages.

Read about the firebombing of Tokyo.

It was a war. It was a horrible war, on both sides, one that maimed and eventually killed my father (relatively) young --- fought against a religious fascism that had to be eliminated. (Maybe, instead of comparing islamic fascism to the Nazis, we should compare it to State Shinto.)

With all that, my father --- who had lots more reason to hate the Japanese than you do --- wouldn't hear them called "japs" in his presence either.

[boris]

Reference to the WWII enemy should not be coopted to take offence. Casual use is discouraged but the word's basic connotation is no different than "yanks". Slur usage derives mostly from the war and probably belongs in the set of things and feelings best encouraged to fade away. Promoting it to a big no-no renders a great deal of history "offensive". Unnecessary.

Polite discouse is one thing, revisionism is to be avoided.

[clarice]

I'm out of town with limited IT access. I wanted to let you know that Sweetness & Light is reporting today that Time's McGirk has changed his story on Haditha yet again.

[TallDave]

These media idiots are treating the Sunni Triangle of Death like it's freaking Vermont. They cite death certificates and local officials so matter-of-factly you'd think there wasn't even any question about their reliability.

THIS IS A WAR. The enemy creates propaganda. Oh, they have death certificates? Gee, those couldn't be forged in a town mostly controlled by insurgents, where the person who signed them is a known propagandist. Local officials also oppose exhuming the bodies to find the real truth? Oh, well they must not have any ulterior motives for that.

Our media is so stupid I wonder who ties their shoes in the morning. They are conducting interviews BY EMAIL. Why? Because if they go there, the very people whose word they are taking WILL KILL THEM JUST FOR BEING INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS. Doesn't that cast a little doubt on their believability? You'd hardly think so from the coverage.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood is based on disseminating information can just blithely ignore the fact the enemy is violently committed to controlling the flow of that information and seemingly draw no conclusions about the reliability and motives of such people from that effort.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Slur usage derives mostly from the war and probably belongs in the set of things and feelings best encouraged to fade away. Promoting it to a big no-no renders a great deal of history "offensive".

No more so than not expurgating Huckleberry Finn makes "nigger" acceptable now.

[boris]

I would make the opposite point about Huckleberry Finn, and barely left it off the comment.

Banning Mark Twain is what's offensive. Polite discourse can avoid the n word without sanitizing history and culture.

[Lesley]

Amen, Boris.

Boris said: "Banning Mark Twain is what's offensive. Polite discourse can avoid the n word without sanitizing history and culture." and, I might add, literature.

Twain once remarked, "The difference between the almost-right word and the right word is . . . the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning."

[Lurker]

"I'm out of town with limited IT access. I wanted to let you know that Sweetness & Light is reporting today that Time's McGirk has changed his story on Haditha yet again."

Damn McGirk! Murtha, too.

Did you read that the Democrats are planning to submit a resolution Wednesday to vote on a specific phased pullout of our troops?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Banning Mark Twain is what's offensive. Polite discourse can avoid the n word without sanitizing history and culture.

Oh, okay. We're violently agreeing then.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

By the way, I haven't done a complete translation yet, but I've posted a translation of an interesting paragraph of the Süddeutsche Zeitung's story at Flares/YARGB.

[boris]

We're violently agreeing then.

To a point. A choice is required. If the n word is never to be uttered under any circumstances, then Twain is de facto banned.

[Lurker]

If ya want more negative news coming from Iraq:

Employees Voice Concerns at U.S. Embassy in Iraq

[clarice]

Good points, Tall Dave.

[Lesley]

Twain had a unique gift for the way language was used in conversation and in all strata of society. Even at the time he wrote Huckleberry Finn the word "nigger" was not used by educated, cultured, upper class white Southerners in polite conversation. They would refer to Blacks either as Negroes or darkies. THAT was Twain's point. The word was used by an illiterate white boy of the lowest class (think "cracker") because it accurately portrayed the way a "Huckleberry" would think and speak. The genius of Twain is the touching humanity he gives to both Jim and Huck. It is also his commentary on what should be the relationship between races - absolutely revolutionary for its time.

"Mark Twain published Huck Finn in 1884 and was in trouble for it from the very beginning. The book was first banned only a year after its appearance by the Concord, Massachusetts Public Library - but not for its language. It was characterized as "rough, course, and inelegant, dealing with a series of experiences not elevating, the whole book being more suited to the slums than to intelligent, respectable people." Twain (tongue typically in cheek) wrote to the library, thanking them for the ban because it would mean that people would have to buy the book in order to read it." - Bill Walsh -

Why was the book in trouble you might ask? Because *some* of the opinion makers of time might not have found a relationship between a poor white boy and a runaway slave "suitable" or uplifting reading material. That's why Huckleberry Finn is so remarkable and eternal for what Twain says about race relations.

NB: Twain is really making his statement here in his introduction, masked in humor.

"Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.
By ORDER OF THE AUTHOR"
- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn 1884

I find it a tragedy that Huckleberry Finn is one of the most banned books in the United States because of a 20th century contextualization of a word.

The inscription beneath Twain's bust in the Hall of Fame is a quote by the writer himself: "Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."

[Daddy]

Lesley, Recently I've been reading Tom Sawyer outloud to my young daughters at bedtime, and surprise, surprise, in the first 140 pages or so the big "N" word pops up 4 or 5 times. Conversations concerning the banning of Mark Twain literature always reference Huck Finn, though I can't ever recall efforts to ban Tom Sawyer. On the contrary, Tom Sawyer, written I think in 1876, is pretty much the quintessential American kids book. Since it unapologetically uses the "N" word, and since it's never to my knowledge been a big candidate for censorship, I think your argument that it was other features of the narrative than the "N" word that got Huck Finn on the book-burning list are correct.
As a sidenote, I believe I also recall that Twain personally mandated that his humerous short story, "1602" be prevented from being published publically for 100 years, because it detailed a hilarious discussion of farting windbags in Queen Elizabeth's Court.

[clarice]

S & L asks why are the Haditha familites refusing exhumation, noting the many other cases (including Hamdaniya) when they have not.http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/why-have-haditha-families-fought-exhuming-victims>Alas Poor Yorick

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