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June 23, 2006

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PeterUK

"I don't see how the Times can be stopped."
What was wrong with the horse's head in the bed?

clarice

Well, Gonzales could act under the Espionage Act.http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12103025_1
If Shoenfeld is wrong and it is inappliacble, he could seek new legislation to stem these leaks.
If he won't act, he should be removed and replaced by someone who will.

clarice

I'm listening to all the lefties yammering about how the program ws probably illegal and the NYT performed a service, despite the fact that the NYT admitted the program was perfectly legal, my normally low blood pressure rises precipitously.

Enlightened

The underlying issue here that bothers the hell out of me is the fact that these two asshats just exposed hundreds upon hundreds of international companies. And SWIFT could end up dead in the water after years of exemplary service.

So they wanted to crap on GWB and the boys - fine - who cares about their agenda anymore.

But will they cop to the error of their ways if SWIFT goes out of business? What of the other international companies that might need to spend millions to change the programs? Are they that arrogant? Or are they mind-numbingly stupid, and all we'll get in the end is oops, sorry?

They need to be held accountable - and not in 2, 3, 5, 20 years time - Now.

PeterUK

One begins to wonder what the owners of the NYT have got to hide.

Rick Ballard

If DoJ were to indict anyone right now it would provide the seditionists an issue that might have a negative impact. If they do not indict by November 15th, then I would join in asking for the head of Alberto Gonzales.

The wager is that no terrorist attacks will occur before November. Should one or more occur then the administration will pay heavily for not having indicted previously.

I'm reading this as evidence of just how weak the seditionists and their party actually are. That might be optimistic but the Times would not play this from a strong hand position.

Tony Snow could strip credentials tomorrow. There is nothing stopping that from happening. Nor is there anything keeping the administration from ending the careers of anyone giving an interview to the Times. Perhaps not firing - just giving them the Japanese window office.

Enlightened

Too bad we can't get some advertisers/patrons to stop their wire transfers to the NYT. For a time.

cfw

How is this not unreasonable search and seizure? If done in the US, one would need a warrant, yes? If done outside the US, by US, against US citizen, still illegal, as I recall. See the "silver platter" doctrine cases. If evidence comes to the US police on a silver platter from Belgians, ok. If US says give us a,b,c, and Belgians do, that is subject to attack under 4th Amend. (My work as defense counsel for V Corps, US Army, in 1981-84 included work in Belgium, where we litigated about silver plate doctrine issues.)

If records rummaging is done by US police outside the US against non-US citizens, that is probably illegal under Belgian law and international law (as it would be in the US).

One needs to picture this done for all purposes, such as chasing Ollie North, marijuana smokers, political enemies. Still smell alright? If not, what is the dividing line?

If this revelation (who knew? /sarc) causes OBM not to send money by wire, so what? That crimps him, yes?

The program smells bad and the NYT had good reason for disclosure, IMO.

maryrose

Politically I don't think pulling press credentials will hurt anyone. Holding people and newspapers and their editors accountable sends an unmistakable message. We take no prisoners-either you are with us or against us. Time to play hardball with the diarrhea mouthed reporters.

clarice

Rick..He has to announce the convening of a grand jury..Otherwise every piece of intel will be handed over to AQ before Nov 15..
Scrappleface does it best. http://www.scrappleface.com/wp-print.php?p=2283

CFW--Instead of simply yammering vaguely about overreach, read what the NYT reported and tell us why they--who had every reason to charge wrongdoing--conceded there was none.

clarice

"According to the NYT's own reporting, the program is legal. The program is helping us catch terrorists. The administration has briefed the appropriate members of Congress. The program has built-in safeguards to prevent abuse. And yet, with nothing more than a vague appeal to the "public interest" (which apparently is not outweighed in this case by the public's interest in apprehending terrorists), the NYT disregards all that and publishes intimate, classified details about the program. Keller and his team really do believe they are above the law. When it comes to national security, it isn't the government that should decide when secrecy is essential to a program's effectiveness. It is the New York Times. "http://media.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTUwYWMzNGFjZmE2YzY5NWVkZTc0YzJhMjIyNzVjZGU=

Remember, too, this is the same paper that (a) insisted someone be punished for the non-outing of a non-covert agent and (b) while it undercuts all law enforcement and intel efforts to prevent terrorist attacks, argues that war is not the answer, law enforcement is.

Carol Herman

So far, the good news is that everybody around the globe wants to own Benjamin's. In other words, its our money, as well as our culture, that attracts the entire world.

Is banking really a secret? If you want that, you go to the Swiss. Otherwise, you risk the thefts by others, who haven't honed the Swiss's secrecy rules.

But talking about the Swiss, in WW2, they ended up with lots more in their banks than the people who entrusted money to them. Like the Jews. And, the Nazis, by the way, alike. You needed numbers to get the money out. Dead people don't quote numbers.

When Arafat died, billions went missing. And, this is still true.

As to what the NY Times discloses, I'd bet it isn't even the tip of the iceberg; when it comes to money. Property. And, transfers.

The USA looks good not so much because of our banks, but because of the infrastructure that tempts investors. And, "bad money" ... when there's enough of it; always look for good places to go.

And, today, a lot of it is done through electronics. Not paper. In other words, it's no longer "all the gold in Fort Knox."

And, the most sophisticated secrets are not known outside of a very small nucleous of people.

Here? Ya got me. Yes, people are upset. But I'm more upset at what's gone down the Iraqi sewer; as after the war ended there's been billions given out in "AID." As well as attempts to "pacify the arabs. We'll never get an accounting.

And, if you've read something in the NY Times, the real crooks got sold "insider dirt" (information), long before this got published.

All ya gotta do is look at Murtha to realize we've got "transparency" all over ourselves.

Just like, at one time, police lockers held talcum powder, as real cocaine got passed out when a clever person figured out "all evidence looks alike, if you just substitute some flour for something that gets more for the money per its weight."

For how long did that go on?

Until one hungry lawyer, paid a pittance, to protect the rights of a criminal, asked to have the stash sent to a lab. And, when the results came in he spouted them out loud. So a judge heard this in open court. And, was forced to let the perp go. SInce it isn't against the law to carry bags of sugar, salt, or whatnot that's Kosher, hidden inside your underpants.

And, if your Sandy Ber(g)ler, you can hide papers their, too.

Besides,Osama is probably dead. He's not sending cash, anywhere. And, this country isn't the only country in the world with spooks. And, interest in arab paraphenalia. Or drug war lord's paraphenalia, either.

I'd bet when the NY Times prints it, it's already been compromised. And, they're too stupid to point it out to their readers. Some "hot, hot, tips" really aren't so hot to know.

Oh. ANd, if you work with the mafia. ANd, it's your job to handle cash. Your life expectancy is way shorter than thriving hamas-a-holes in gaza.

The NY Times just thinks of itself as important. Why encourage them?

Sara (The Squiggler)

cfw -- the program was entirely legal and covered by search warrants and subpoenas. What's more it has been successfully operational for years and the law covering it goes back to 1978, way before the hated GWB came to office. Every electronic transfer of funds is tracked somewhere, this program red-flagged known al-Qeda funds transfers and some of the other known terrorists groups. We have no idea how many were tracked, but we do know that one is the guy responsible for the Bali bomber. You can be sure there were lots more and probably even more in the pipeline. This is not the Bush Administration being hurt here, this is the entire United States government which, cfw, includes YOU and me and every other citizen and even those illegal aliens everyone worries so much about.

Enlightened

Well, maybe this is just the NYT times covering their tracks vis-a-vis their Plame/Niger/UN Oil for Food/Saddam account. Maybe they need the SWIFT program overhauled so they can slide under the radar.....

JeanneB

Could someone please explain why the reporters can't be called before a grand jury and asked who their sources are (ala Fitz's GJ)? I'm as mad at the TImes as anyone...but the leakers are even lower.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Malkin is calling for a letter writing campaign to the NYT, MacRanger thinks we should file a class action suit, MOI -- I say hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook -- cancel subscriptions, but more importantly, let their advertisers know that you DO NOT support a company who supports terrorism. No advertiser wants to get a letter like that, I guarantee it!

PeterUK

Clarice,
I note that CFW is doing the usual Reductio ad Absurdum, without recognising that marijuana smokers simply would not enter into the system.That this was not a police issue but an intelligence issue,there were not likely to be arrests and court cases directly arising from the intelligence.The movement of money gives a good indication of who is operating where and at what level.Lives will be lost with the expose of the Swift operation,no longer will it be known when a young student suddenly gets $70,000 from a mysterious uncle,for flying lessons.

Bruce Hayden

A lot of those records don't need search warrants in the first place. You don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy, esp. from the govt., in many of these situations. You entrust your money to a federally insured and regulated bank, and shouldn't be surprised that the federal government can look at what you are doing?

Sara (The Squiggler)

So who wants to bet that the MOM cabal rogues are behind this? Their side has been looking pretty foolish lately, not surprising they would lash out in revenge.

Neo

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction here, but this sure looks to me as if the New York Times Company has given maximum exposure to any lawsuits that could arise down the road. If there were to be a major terrorist attack a few months from now, expect a whole bunch of lawsuits that start with "Keller et al" to be filed within days.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, the Swift folks aren't without some muscle of their own, and I do expect the Times to have a bit of difficulty down the road. If you own, sell now.

Pofarmer

Who are the enablers in the beauracracy???? Somebody needs to drop a roach bomb at DOJ, DOD, CIA, and a few other choice agencies. They are entrenched at every level of our govt, and are now doing incalculable harm. I can understand why the Times would do this(partly) but I can't understand what the leakers are thinking. There are oaths being violated.

Mark H.

"I don't see how the Times can be stopped."

I'm not sure how they can be stopped either, but I stopped reading them a long time ago, and will never again directly read anything they print for so long as "Pinch" is in charge (and probably beyond that).

clarice

PUK< Yes. Not a clue.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Pofarmer, MacRanger says:

Doors slaming and anger galore at the DOJ this morning - DOJ to proceed in coming weeks

For a link roundup, lots of good stuff.

clarice

Who would know about this program? I suppose CIA and Treasury, FBI and DoJ....But it would be a discrete number of people.Now here's the deal..Apparently in a futile effort to get the NYT to can the story, the feds gave them a briefing..with more details than they had. That doesn't mean they cannot go after them to divulge their sources, and use the Miller precedent to force them to reveal sources.

Jim Morgan

Execute a couple as spies, close down newspapers involved in treason and it will make an impact. Need to take out a couple reporters and whoever is leaking.

clarice

Sara, He's been saying that for a long time, and my sources in town say Gonzales hasn't the balls to do it.

vnjagvet

The Squiggler hits it out of the park.

CFW has made his argument appear strong only by ignoring the facts reported in the NYT article. Watch:

cfw says, "How is this not unreasonable search and seizure? If done in the US, one would need a warrant, yes? If done outside the US, by US, against US citizen, still illegal, as I recall. See the "silver platter" doctrine cases."

The NYT times reports, "The F.B.I. began acquiring financial records from Western Union and its parent company, the First Data Corporation. The programs were alluded to in Congressional testimony by the F.B.I. in 2003 and described in more detail in a book released this week, "The One Percent Doctrine," by Ron Suskind. Using what officials described as individual, narrowly framed subpoenas and warrants, the F.B.I. has obtained records from First Data, which processes credit and debit card transactions, to track financial activity and try to locate suspects."

And, "Among their considerations, American officials saw Swift as a willing partner in the operation. But Swift said its participation was never voluntary. "Swift has made clear that it could provide data only in response to a valid subpoena," according to its written statement."

Translation: In this country, warrants were obtained. With international SWIFT transactions, subpoenas were required.

More from the NYT, "In 1976, the Supreme Court ruled that Americans had no constitutional right to privacy for their records held by banks or other financial institutions."

This decision has not been overruled.

In spite of the implications contained in cwf's comments, there is no ground to suspect any constitutional violations alleged in this story.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Clarice, one correction. The admin. did brief, but according to a report earlier today by a treasury guy (I think), they only briefed AFTER the NYT said they were definitely going to publish. The gov't. then decided it was better to brief the story and have the facts be correct rather than have one of the Times' smear stories making all kinds of speculations of illegality as we see cfw has done. However, the Times was told right up to deadline that the U.S. gov't. was asking them not to go to print on this story. The Times response was a simple "F-you!"

lurker

Donald Luskin has an idea that NYT is really after the adm; not the government.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Who would know about this story?

I don't know who all would know, but if today is any indication, Treasury seems to be taking the lead, at least as spokesperson. Since it is foreign, I'm sure the CIA is in there somewhere.

Pofarmer

"Donald Luskin has an idea that NYT is really after the adm; not the government."

I think that's a fer sure. However, I certainly wish they wouldn't run the risk of getting a bunch of us killed for it!

clarice

I understand that , Sara, I am only diagramming the case..It makes it a bit harder to separate out what they got legally and what they got from inappropriate leaks. OTOH it does prove they were warned that the publication would harm national security.

lurker

What's odd is the intentional disapperance of Bill Keller and Pinch Saulzberg.

Where the hell are these two men? Hugh Hewitt tried to contact them and got word that Bill Keller went on vacation. Right.

Captain's Quarters and Instapundit people were supposed to be online with Hugh Hewitt this evening.

lurker

Stanley Leahy (sp?) was interview by Jim Angle who acted for Brit Hume. He was one of the Treasury people that talked to NYT yesterday. They either asked NYT to not publish it or warned them against it.

Sara (The Squiggler)

OT - Clarice, how do you find out what the sentencing guidelines are (if there are such things) for the charge of "levying war against the United States?" This is one of several charges against the "Liberty Seven."

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or, in adhering to their Enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." (Constitution of the United States of America, Art. III, Sec. 3, Par. 1)
Sara (The Squiggler)

Clarice, do you think that whoever was the original Times contact to the government would have had to provide a draft of the proposed story? Wouldn't that provide proof of what they already had and then the final story show what was changed or any additions or deletions? Even advertisers expect to see a proof of their ad before publication.

lurker

Risen, Lichblau, Keller, Saulzberg, and the boss of LATimes probably did not anctipate the angry responses that they got today.

clarice

SARA, Try googling DOJ sentencing guidelines and see if they have some for this crime. If you can't find id go to the DoJ site and look up the Assk DoJ email addy.

I don't know if they provided the draft. I hope they did. It would make it easier for the prosecution.

lurker

Wow, Read Hugh Hewitt's last What Does the Congress Think of the New York Times' Assist to the Terrorists?

"But rather, as Bill Kristol and I just spent a segment discussing, with House and Senate Resolutions --preferably drafted, debated and voted on next week-- expressing outrage at the endangering of national security via the publication of sensitive national security information that obviously assists terrorists in eluding capture or killing."

lurker

Oh please!!

Captain's Quarters just reported that ACLU decided to jump into the fray.

Rick Ballard

The Times does have some FCC licenses currently under review. Applications are in but the Times 10K says they are still pending.

How about a nice set of hearings concerning the inadvisability of renewal?

Sara (The Squiggler)

I saw that Hewitt piece and figured it would only do some good if the whole Congress took their heads out of the sand and realized this is NOT a partisan issue. Show me some outrage on the left.

PhilG

What if there were a nation wide boycott of any company that advertises in the New York and LA Slimes??

lurker

Write letters to those companies that advertise in those newspapers? Looks like WSJ is part of this chain.

clarice

I tried that tack some time ago, and it's not easy. Pick up a paper and note their largest advertisers and send letters to themif you want, but I don't see SFA or Tiffany, etc cutting down their ads.

Rick, when does that FCC thing come up or where can we find out about it?

Sara (The Squiggler)

I'm calling for a real burst to the advertisers.

Speaking of licenses -- they are building that fancy schmancy new building, surely there are ways to put the screws to them there.

Don't you wish Rudy were still the mayor?

crosspatch

I don't see how the Times can be stopped.

First thing would be to remove their press credentials and bar their employees from government property. No more inclusion at press conferences, briefings, Presidential trips, etc.

Carol Herman

Yup. Bill Keller knew to get out of town.

But any "case" that depended on American jurors figuring out financial details to put someone in jail; where they are the fingered "bag man" should have a whole lot of people,laughing.

While I'm impressed that its AMERICAN banks! Not Swiss. And, not diamonds, either. Which can be sewn into clothes and transported with ease.

The other thing I notice is that BENJAMIN'S TALK. Go into any stinkystan hole; and the people recognize GOOD AMERICAN DOLLAR BILLS. (Even though we've changed our money and some of it looks pink. Or peach. It's the desirability of this moolah that impresses me no end.)

Again, the CIA is way behind other countries, when it comes to spooks. And, on the ground operators with their ears and eyes open. I'd even bet (since this was famous in Europe), that you could have some places just wall to wall with spies. And, different governments transfering what they know, back and forth between operatives. Nope. They're not building "court cases," either.

I think in Iraq, we're putting a lot of dogs to sleep. The Saddam trial by now is ludicrous. The way of the world, in the future, will be to toss in a grenade into the hidey-hole. Or bombard from the air. And, then go for the DNA evidence.

Court cases? In a sytem that takes years and years? With a clock traveling at warp speed for da lawyers?

Yes, the NY Times just exposed a program. The program had happy agents, with badges, who didn't worry about getting shot at. They liked their jobs. And, they were clocking off time until retirement. Now, what will they do?

Meanwhile, data mining is pervasive. It's gotta be. Or you could lose track of those zeros and ones. And, then some bank clerk could grow rich and leave his desk, unattended. And, nobdoby would figure out what's what.

HOw come dollars are so popular? Did the Euro go down the toilet? Are Swiss bankers concerned their market on secrecy has been broken?

By the time cash transfers hands "to get the job done" the terrorists have way to long a lead. We gotta get out'da da station with better head starts. (And, fewer lawyers.)

We shouldn't have let the Saudis trap us so, either. How come their funds are so sacrosant? How come we don't go to the source? And, stop this mad dance on 42nd street? pinch is a perp. He's running the family paper into the ground. And, lots of 9/11 charity money is hanging out of his pockets. You didn't know he's building his edifice on our dime? He dances and laughs.

And, he's gotta get caught with something better than data mining. Data mining isn't gonna go away! Because it's beyond governments, now. It's used by businesses.

lurker

How about stockholders?

Mark Levine's perspective

Yeah, sure wish Rudy was still the major.

crosspatch

Problem with advertizers is that just about every company on the planet advertizes at the NYT. If you want a list of them, just go to your supermarket and big box store and start writing down brands. Might also be interesting to aim at the investors. What the NYT is doing might not be so good for investment markets should they enable another terrorist attack.

clarice

All right, riffing off Rick's FCC point, I emailed Hewitt and asked if we shouldn't organize the blogosphere to seek out every thing the NYT is seeking from the federal government--including the FCC--and oppose it.

crosspatch

I would settle for a good old fashiond bonfire ... fueled by copies of the NYT. In front of their HQ would even be better!

Carol Herman

Stockholders with voting rights are all in the family. All others hold Class B.

Yes, the ratings got lowered recently. All's not peaches and cream for pinch within his family. But the rag is now in such bad shape that there's little elites can do. What choices would they have?

The WaPo to suffers from credibility problems. You haven't noticed this?

Before an out of control rocket crashes to earth, it traverses many curves, flips, and flops.

Pinch has stepped in it.

And, I'll bet at some point ahead, Ms. Run Amok, herself, once freed of Fitzgerald's tethers, aims a few sharp darts in his direction. Ya know, they were once friends?

Mayor Bloomberg's no slouch when it comes to Wall Street chicanery. Rudy wasn't even in the majors, in comparison.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Crosspatch -- YES! Great idea.

Rick Ballard

WTKR-TV (Norfolk, Va.) October 1, 2012 42 CBS VHF

WREG-TV (Memphis, Tenn.) August 1, 2005 44 CBS VHF

KFOR-TV (Oklahoma City, Okla.) June 1, 2006 45 NBC VHF

KAUT-TV (Oklahoma City, Okla.) June 1, 2006 45 UPN UHF

WNEP-TV (Scranton, Penn.) August 1, 2007 54 ABC UHF2

WHO-TV (Des Moines, Iowa) February 1, 2006 73 NBC VHF

WHNT-TV (Huntsville, Ala.) April 1, 2005 84 CBS UHF2

WQAD-TV (Moline, Ill.) December 1, 2005 95 ABC VHF

KFSM-TV (Ft. Smith, Ark.) June 1, 2005 104 CBS VHF

Patterico

I don't see how the Times can be stopped.

I have an idea.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Yeah, Carol, but Rudy's a street guy and I think some of those contractors and service types working on that fancy new building wouldn't be above slow it down, reeeeeeeeeal sloooooooooooooow.

clarice

Too late for now..What about license revocations? Licenses are supposed to be given to people to advance the public interest..and they aren't..

OTOH they own a number of papers in predominently Republican areas--I.E. The Sarasoate Fla paper..Boycotts there would be easier to pull off..

Sara (The Squiggler)

What is that Rick?

Rick Ballard

WREG,KFOR, KAUT,WHO, WHNT,WQAD AND KSFM ARE ALL COVERED BY A FN THAT SAYS:

Application for renewal of license pending.

clarice

Patterico, I agree. A long time ago I read the Schoenfeld article and found it persuasive. And yes, I think they should have to give up their sources. The problem is (see today's Weekly Standard) Gonzales is not particularly hot to do this..I think if he won't he should be replaced. Seriously.

And while that rumbles on, I think we should consider other forms of action as well.

clarice

Okay, Rick how can we find out where in the process those renewals are and whther it is too late to intervene?

vnjagvet

My advice to NYT stockholders is sell, sell, sell. Since the family has all the votes, let them have all the non-voting stock as well.

The family is setting the agenda. Why should anyone but the nutty left aid or abet them.

Criminal prosecution is not a good idea IMHO, because they will play the martyrdom gambit to the hilt.

crosspatch

Too bad the "community service" requirement for station licenses has gone the way of the dial telephone :(

Sara (The Squiggler)

A big company like GM and I'm sure they are at least co-op-ping ads with local dealers if not company ads would not take kindly to letters saying you won't support a company who supports terrorists. GM is a Red State company in more ways than one. Their main U.S. customer base, you can be sure, is not happy about this. My ex is an engineering manager for GM Truck and Bus in Indiana, and that is definitely Red State.

clarice

vnjagvet--they set the standard in Plame..they have to cough up their sources. If they won't throw Keller and Risen in jail and when you do that remind them they asked for the special prosecutor who set that precedent.

crosspatch

One has to wonder how long it takes for DoJ investigations. Back when Mary McCarthy was fingered, I seem to remember talk of "dozens" of ongoing investigations. Some time has passed since then.

clarice

The NSA leak was in March and Schoenfeld said Gonzales was fretting in May about it.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Counterterroism blog seems to say no big deal, if I'm reading it correctly.

http://counterterrorismblog.org/

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

The official deadlines have passed but that wouldn't stop Congress - or the Executive from modifying things a bit. There are probably applicable regulations concerning the behavior of license holders that could be applicable.

I actually favor pulling press credentials as I mentioned above. No Times reporter should be granted access to anything or anybody having to do with the Federal government.

As to an advertiser boycott - the most effective strategy would be to target three at most - national firms with products or services having a good deal of competition and costing no more than $1,000 for a purchase or $50 per month for a service. I'd go three phases in doing so. First phase would be a "contest" to pick the three companies (via Internet voting), second phase would be an internet announcement of the boycott and the third phase would be daily reports by Hewitt, Hannuty and Limbaugh concerning the "news" of the boycott - they wouldn't necessarily have to voice loud support - just "report the news".

lurker

Ah...the name is Stuart Levey, Undersecretary for the Office of Terrorism and Financial Intelligence, (he was the one on Brit Hume's show), His letter is via counterterroism site:

Stuart Levey's letter

His letter says:

"With today's revelations, this is unfortunately no longer true. This is a grave loss.
The terrorists we are pursuing are deadly serious and take every precaution to keep their plans and methods to themselves. We cannot expect to continue disrupting their activities if our most valuable programs are exposed on the front page of our newspapers."

Wonder if damages can be used to justify a lawsuit?

clarice

I emailed a friend on the Hill to test the waters about Congressional action and the withholding of press credentials.

About the boycott, someone who has the NYT will have to carry the ball about finding candidates for a boycott.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Aaron Spelling has died.

Carol Herman

Oy. Ya know what? In a different America, kids earned money deliverying newspapers. That's gone now, too.

I really don't know why people are so angry at a failing trade. The NY Times is no different than Pravda. And, for the russians, that's all they had! And, they learned to read between the lines! They knew what was going on in the Kremlin when photographs would come up short. And, people would be wiped out of the picture. Didn't lead to stupidity among the Russians at all.

They do the same, over there, with their national television. Feeling lucky to have TVs they keep them mute. Following their eyes to recognize what's missing from the pictures.

As to the NY Times, if truth be told, their circulation is DOWN. Maybe, the terrorists buy this shit. And, then clip the articles to post-haste them to their comrades.

While the real outrage might be that we're keeping secret agents busy with paperwork so that "someday" we can bring terrorists to trial.

Ya know what? Most Americans don't want to see terrorists brought to trial. Just like they don't want to see terrorists crossing over our open borders.

Yes, probably all of the terrorism is FUNDED. So instead of thinking of this as a religious streak, it's more a manuever of the Saudis to keep oppressed and crazy "believers" under their control.

As to the funding, let me tell ya. In Iraq, American commanders were flush will billions of dollars in funds. And, after 3 years we don't have much to show for it.

Though, it seems, perhaps, Maliki (Malarky) "may" be going the extra mile now against the Badr gang. (Of course, nobody hears from Sistani. Who wanted the powers the mullahs got in Iran. But, he's kind'a voiceless). While we have agents doing paper chases.

At the end of the day all that happens is that the clock runs for da' lawyers. And, if there are secrets to behold you still have to read the NY Times like Pravda. BETWEEN THE LINES. Nothing's official.

They're just being run into the ground.

And, pinch is not loved by his relatives. If there's a weak spot it's that some people know the NY Times has lost its luster. Bill Keller might be on vacation, now. But he's not getting a chance to lay back and smile. Only headaches piling up on his desk. Ho hum.

In the 60's, the "man in the grey fannel suit" shed his tie. And, put on bermuda's. Class distinctions went to hell in a handbasket. Now, it's the elites' turn to see their credentialing system being exposed. Pretty worthless paper all around.

But, go ahead. Boycott. I was in a supermarket, recently, where a man was trying to give away, for free, the LA Times. When I asked him why he thought I'd want one, he said "for the coupons."

Nah. I hardly see people using coupons when they shop anymore. And, I didn't take the free paper. Is that a boycott? A boycott means that someday you'll go back. Not so, here. The lost customer base is gone forever.

topsecretk9

PUK--One begins to wonder what the owners of the NYT have got to hide.--

Among others...doesn't this program seem to be the one that would scares the crap out of people -- not terrorist-- who happen to have money transactions that are questionable?

Like say, perhaps, bribing a foreign head of state or visa versa? Hey that seems to have happened recently -- ahem Billy Jeff--ahem

topsecretk9

NYT's BS

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/24/opinion/24sat1.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Investigators will probably need to monitor the flow of money to and from suspected terrorists and listen in on their phone conversations for decades to come. No one wants that to stop, but if America is going to continue to be America, these efforts need to be done under a clear and coherent set of rules, with the oversight of Congress and the courts.

Bill Keller -- here is a clear and coherent set of rules with oversight...kiss my A**! You aren't my proxy and the NYT's is HAS NO POWER and NO SPECIAL PRIVILEGE - You are profiteers and subject to a clear and coherent set of rules with oversight of a Federal Criminal court judge!

NYT's -- The Official American publishers of the Al Queda Terrorist Training Manual!

topsecretk9

NYT's -- The Official American publishers of the Al Queda Terrorist Training Manual!

I'm bolding it, because it needs to be...

Syl

F them all and the loblolly pines they rode in on.

They're too disgusting for words.

clarice

Sec. 309. Application for license

(a) Considerations in granting application
Subject to the provisions of this section, the Commission shall
determine, in the case of each application filed with it to which
section 308 of this title applies, whether the public interest,
convenience, and necessity will be served by the granting of such
application, and, if the Commission, upon examination of such
application and upon consideration of such other matters as the
Commission may officially notice, shall find that public interest,
convenience, and necessity would be served by the granting thereof,
it shall grant such application.

topsecretk9

From the NYT's Editorial

But the Judiciary chairman, Arlen Specter, was quoted yesterday as questioning whether their use in the Swift investigation has been too broad.

A leaker?

Anyway, I think Spectar could use a few words from the heartland here...also a reminder that many are NOT impressed, enthusiastic or optimistic with the words "oversight" and "congess" in the same sentence...i.e. were ain't stoopid Arlen. Them words used together = useless, worthless, a joke, waste of time, posturing, stifling, and just that you will generally FUBAR anything worthwhile, working, helping.


You know I am beginning to see what these leaks and what this is all about...Congress has been rendered useless since the inception of GWOT...and at the same time more is being done to protect Americans and well they (Congress) have really been left to nothing but pick there nose and well isn't that revealing? and embarrassing at the same time?

clarice

The members of the intel committees were fully informed about the program, and were so supportive of it they urged Keller not to publish this-even Murtha was in that bipartisan delegation.

topsecretk9

Clarice...my point is...Congress would like to wrestle control, not condemn the program--now that it's out...does that make sense...I am not fully speaking about any or ALL members of the intel committees...

anyway...this seems like a better use of Spectar's and others's time (rahter than a pointless windbaggery of a hearing)...via Hugh Hewitt---

--The irresponsibility of the New York Times and Los Angeles Times combined with the arrogance of their management in refusing to be available to anyone concerning their decisions puts the burden on Congress to act.


Not, of course, with a law curtailing press freedom, which would be unconstitutional and opposed by any friend of the Constitution.


But rather, as Bill Kristol and I just spent a segment discussing, with House and Senate Resolutions --preferably drafted, debated and voted on next week-- expressing outrage at the endangering of national security via the publication of sensitive national security information that obviously assists terrorists in eluding capture or killing.


Perhaps the papers would find some supporters among the congressmen and senators, but I believe that a strongly worded condemnation of the papers'actions would pass, and would as Bill argued, send the message that it isn't the Bush Adminsitration the papers are defying, but the legislative branch as well.


And then let's have some new hearings on the federal press shield law. If the papers really believe they deserve it, let them send their editors to defend that proposition.--

Carol Herman

Top secret, 9. What's the NY Times hiding? Seems to me Bill Keller ran away. Even if it's called a vacation. And, if this were Catch 22, you'd seed the psychologist heading out the window.

In other words its a RETREAT!

And, the next thing to notice is that the media, once the darling of people who held more faith in having their stories told in public than in court; now realize. The Bush method WORKS. Ignore the press.

So, Bill Keller ran away. Probably knows there's a few spots of trouble ahead, too.

And, ya gotta wonder if he composes resignation letters in his head? And, if he was to submit one to pinch, would he have to write it in crayons?

This program's not the biggest deal in the world to get exposed. Heck, nobody at the NY Times took a vacation when the Pentagon Papers got published, ya know?

Now, they get less bang for their disclosure bucks, that's fer sher. The quality of their leakers is on the skids, too. Unlike Katherine Graham who stayed in town when Nixon was getting hit with FBI leaks. With the interesting spin that the leaker was called "deep throat." And, his identity became a toy. Sort'a like the Fitzgerald thing, recently, with all the intimidations that Rove was gonna be indicted. Literary flares. That's all.

Americans are all the wiser for it.

Sara (The Squiggler)

I don't know, TS, I tend to be pretty much against anything Bill Kristol is for. I don't like him or trust his judgment all that much. He's too much of a left over from the out-of-touch Country Club Republican days for my taste, although the Harriet Miers debacle shows he still has a lot of clout with the old right wing. And I don't think he is any friend of George Bush. He reminds me of a David Gergen type.

crosspatch

So, Bill Keller ran away.

Maybe he was afraid he would be served with an arrest warrant as soon as that paper hit the street.

This is a very clear instance where there was no reason to publish except to damage the war effort. Everyone was on board, he presents no evidence that anyone has been harmed, nobody is accused of taking any advantage of the program, there is just no good purpose for publishing the story. It is malicious. He did it for no other reason that to intentionally harm our efforts against the terrorists. There can be no other sensible reason for it.

Even people on the 9/11 commission spoke to him and asked him not to publish the story. There wasn't the slightest bit of controversy surrounding the program.

Keller should be hauled out into the street by a group of citizens to be publically tarred and feathered. This is EXACTLY the kind of circumstance that tar and feathers was designed for.

vnjagvet

Clarice:

I agree the NYT should be required to cough up its sources.

Maybe the AG or new Sec Treas should appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the internal leaks from within similar to the one that uncovered the CIA situation resulting in the headrolling in the IG's office.

willem

Why did they do it? Heh. For money. Keller, Risen and Lichtblau did it for money. In more than just the abstract sense they were paid to do it by the NYT which is currently in the throes of financial decline. They write and publish to keep the bank deposits coming and their resumes expanding. So why not engage in crass exploitation and convert governmental information into personal and corporate profit? Profiteering off the public trust ultimately comes with a price. Shouldn't they be made to pick up some of the tab? It's about time Gonzales and friends went to work to see if something special could be added to their bios, or at least get them spending some of that money made from ill-gotten gains.

MayBee

Did you see that Matt Cooper is leaving Time?

MayBee

If the NYTs is going to be held to account for this, some other news sources are going to have to be convinced the NYTs did the wrong thing and call them to task.

Otherwise, the press gets to control the narrative, and paint themselves as the victims of a witch-hunt, the controllers of truth against the liar Bush.

Patton

How to stop the New York Times.

It ain't hard. You end all cooperation with them and all their media, no interviews, no credentials. Anyone meets with or talks to them, they lose their job or get demoted or counseled.

All discussions with their employees ae to be teated as meetings with foriegn enemy agents and must be reported to your agencies security manager, etc. etc.

Pull the White House credentials of all their foriegn agents that they call reporters, etc.

They pull a knife, you pull a gun.......

Patton

Seems the New York Times is not interested in preventing the next September 11th.

Makes you wonder if we should take them seriously when they claim Bush should have done more to stop the first Sept 11th.

Patton

Ok, I am being harsh, you can respond to their press inquiries to the press office, but all responses back to the times with be
"No comment" and will be in pig latin only...."onay ommentcay"

Let the bastards print that.

paladin2

Why not arrest, detention in Gitmo and proceedings before court of military justice?

Jane

Someone, somewhere (sorry I don't remember where) suggested a class action suit against the Times, for putting the public at risk. I dunno, it seems you might have to suffer some damages to prevail.

Sadly they just increased the chances of that happening greatly.

PeterUK

Star with contacting advertisers who have family in the military,smilarly those in the construction unions working on the new NYT building.Explain that money pays for IEDs,suicide bombers and the likes of 9/11,7/7 ,Bali and attacks on Israel.That a sudden influx of unexplained money is a good indicator that an operation is being planned.
BTW by the same token,doesn't the public have a right to know the income of Sulzburger and Keller et al.Shouldn't the financial affairs of journalists and leakers also be examined.After all if their interests and the interests of al Qaeda coincide,is it not in the public interest to know?

lurker

Following the Money, and the Rules NYT Editorial.

They still don't get it. This program HAS been scrutinized under a clear and coherent set of rules and by private entities, such as Booz Allen and Hamilton.

This editorial tells me that this is a poor attempt of an apology for publishing against advice.

Damn that Specter. Michelle Malkin should start another letter writing to Specter and others about Specter.

PeterUK

Rick,
Those places look as if they are very much in recruitment country,there must be some military family associations there.

lurker

"Someone, somewhere (sorry I don't remember where) suggested a class action suit against the Times, for putting the public at risk. I dunno, it seems you might have to suffer some damages to prevail.

Sadly they just increased the chances of that happening greatly."

That was Mac Ranger.

Today many bloggers will be posting about this NYT editorial. A Lucianne poster already said he / she will no longer buy the Sunday papers from NYT, starting tomorrow.

This time it's up to us to make sure NYT, WSJ, and LATimes are NOT going to get away with it.

lurker

Regarding rules and all, one Lucianne poster said:

"What the NYT wants is fixed, explicit, well known rules for the government's system of following the money. Sounds easy enough, except the terrorists can change their methods to neutralize our surveillance. So called "mission creep" is the government's reaction to the terrorist's efforts to evade our detection methods. The New Your Times is either stupid or treasonous and proof favors the latter."

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