TruthNot Explains All

TruthNot, having promised "a more comprehensive accounting" of their "Rove Indicted" debacle from last May 13, delivers a compelling graphic explaining why Special Counsel Fitzgerald can't be stopped in his pursuit of the Evildoers.

At least they remain true to the TruthNot motto - Speak Truth to Power, deliver BS to everyone else.

With almost as much seriousness, Marc Ash provides some text telling us that yes, Rove really was indicted.  The short version is a re-hash of the fantasy still prevailing among lefties who can't let go - Rove has given up the key evidence on Cheney, who will be getting his come-uppance within the next 24 business hours (i.e., at about half-past never).

The TruthNot piece makes no sense, but let's highlight this special nonsense:

The electronic communication from Fitzgerald to Luskin, coming immediately on the heels of our Monday morning, June 12 article "Sealed vs. Sealed" that became the basis for the mainstream media's de facto exoneration of Karl Rove was, our sources told us, negotiated quickly over the phone later that afternoon.

Pretty good inside stuff, yes?  The phone rings, Luskin is on the line, and the TruthNot source is there!

But wait!  Who, other than Marc Ash, has forgotten their classic lead from the May 13 piece?

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald spent more than half a day Friday at the offices of Patton Boggs, the law firm representing Karl Rove.

During the course of that meeting, Fitzgerald served attorneys for former Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove with an indictment charging the embattled White House official with perjury and lying to investigators related to his role in the CIA leak case, and instructed one of the attorneys to tell Rove that he has 24 business hours to get his affairs in order, high level sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said Saturday morning.

Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, did not return a call for comment. Sources said Fitzgerald was in Washington, DC, Friday and met with Luskin for about 15 hours to go over the charges against Rove...

How could sources who can tip TruthOut to a single phone call be wrong about a fifteen hour meeting?  Or does TruthOut still fantasize that such a meeting occurred?  Well, here is their current punchline:

Our sources continue to maintain that a grand jury has in fact returned an indictment. Our sources said that parts of the indictment were read to Karl Rove and his attorney on Friday, May 12, 2006.

Wow - they spent fifteen hours reading "parts of the indictment" to Karl Rove and his attorney?  That raises the bar on "tedium" to absurd heights - "Like watching paint dry" will never mean "boring" again.

Let's close with this:

That leaves the most important question: If our sources maintain that a grand jury has returned an indictment - and we have pointed to a criminal case number that we are told corresponds to it - then how is it possible that Patrick Fitzgerald is reported to have said that 'he does not anticipate seeking charges against Rove at this time?' That is a very troubling question, and the truth is, we do not yet have a definitive answer.

They don't have a definitive answer, but... the trial is not until next January, prosecutors aren't normally in the business of announcing non-indictments, so Keep Hope Alive!

MORE:  J Pod thinks this is all about traffic and donor support at TruthNot.  Here is an idea - Marc Ash should hint that Evil Forces are trying to quash and discredit their story, and it is only his readers and fellow fantasists that stand between Truth and the Dark Side.  Ahh, yes.

GOOD POINT - I may have misinterpreted the graphic stolen shamelessly from a commenter at Donklephant.  Maybe TruthNot is showing us how Evil Dick Cheney can be unstoppable in his intimidation of the Truth-Tellers.  You make the call.

PROPS TO DU:  A Democratic Underground sleuth debunked the TruthOut "sealed versus sealed" fantasy a while back.  The gist - in the DC circuit, cases are assigned a docket number in sequence.  A sealed case will still get a number in sequence, but will be missing from the docket.

And the case on which TruthNot pins their hopes, 06 cr 128, falls between two cases assigned numbers on May 16 and May 17.

Since Rove was indicted on May 12, that does not work.

Here is an excerpt.  Good job.

The criminal docket doesn't list a 06-CR-128; it's completely missing from the docket. This is typical for sealed cases in the DC courts. However, we can tell when it was filed based on the dates of the surrounding cases. Here's the complete list of criminal cases filed in the DC district court from May 10 - May 23, 2006.

1:06-cr-00123-HHK
USA v. MANSOER      Filed: 05/10/2006   Office: Washington, DC

1:06-cr-00125-RBW
USA v. DORIUS et al Filed: 05/12/2006   Office: Washington, DC

1:06-cr-00126-JDB
USA v. ABDOULAYE   Filed: 05/12/2006   Office: Washington, DC

1:06-cr-00127-RWR
USA v. CURRY       Filed: 05/16/2006   Office: Washington, DC

1:06-cr-00129-RMC
USA v. WASHINGTON  Filed: 05/17/2006   Office: Washington, DC

1:06-cr-00131-PLF
USA v. HILLIARD    Filed: 05/18/2006   Office: Washington, DC

1:06-cr-00132-EGS
USA v. MANOR       Filed: 05/18/2006   Office: Washington,  DC

1:06-cr-00136-HHK
USA v. GARCIA      Filed: 05/23/2006   Office: Washington, DC

No 06-CR-128 listed at all. But the case before it, CR-127, was filed on May 16, 2006. And the case after it, CR-129, was filed on May 17, 2006. Therefore, we know that 06-CR-128 was filed either May 16 or May 17th. According to Leopold's original story, Rove was indicted (secretly) on May 12th. In his new "Sealed vs. Sealed" story, he says "As of Friday afternoon that indictment, returned by the grand jury the week of May 10th, remains under seal.. The case number is "06 cr 128." But based on the dates in the docket, that case cite CANNOT be the Rove indictment. This case was filed on Tuesday, May 16 or Wed., May 17th - NOT May 12th (when Fitz supposedly met w/the grand jury), and NOT during the week of May 7 - May 13th.

JUST IN:  Don't ignore the possibility of time traveling aliens.  I thought they were working for Karl, but maybe a rival faction interceded.

 

Comments

[Semanticleo]

"It's a chapter that has ended. Fitzgerald is a very thorough person. I think he's conducted his investigation in a dignified way. And he's ended his investigation." GWB 6/13/06

How should Libby interpret this?

And....since this will leave me EPU'd on previous thread....bear with me....

BTW Maguire (Liberal Larry?)

Finally got around to reading comments at TO and discovered the origin of your cryptic derogation which devolved from 'Semanticlown'
(pure genius) to 'Semanticduck'(bemusing)

DarkDuck is in no way affiliated with me or my writing, and I demand an immediate retraction and effusive apologies for your slanderous attack upon my person(::chuckle::)

Only a sociopathic and shizoid personality who lacks any intestinal fortitude would hide behind an alter-ego.

Shame on you!

BTW; for the obtuse; I ALWAYS use Semanticleo. No other handle will suffice.

[steve sturm]

With tongue firmly in cheek, let me shed some light on what is going on...

Fitzgerald said 'he does not anticipate seeking charges against Rove at this time' because he already had brought charges against Rove.

There's an innocent explanation for the claim that Fitzgerald met with Luskin for about 15 hours to go over the charges against Rove... the 15 hours doesn't refer to a single meeting but is the cumulative amount of time Fitzgerald had spend talking with Luskin about Rove.

As far as Rove being told he had 24 business hours to get his affairs in order, this was simply a standard means of applying pressure on a target.... it makes them sweat, thinking an indictment is imminent. It happens all the time and it would be surprising if a prosecutor didn't say that at sometime to Rove.

And Luskin and Rove were not read the contents of the actual indictment, but rather the contents of the indictment Fitzgerald was threatening to request the grand jury to issue.

And Leopold never said 'which' offices of Patton Boggs Fitzgerald and Luskin met at for that long Friday afternoon. Patton Boggs has offices all over the place. The meeting could have easily taken place at the 'office' in Luskin's house.

[JohnH]

The night Max wore his wolf suit and made mischief of one kind and another

his mother called him “WILD THING!” and Max said “I”LL EAT YOU UP!” so he was sent to bed without eating anything.

That very night in Max’s room a forest grew

and grew-

and grew until his ceiling hung with vines and the walls became the world all around

and an ocean tumbled by with a private boat for Max and he sailed off through night and day

and in and out of weeks and almost over a year to where the wild things are.

[Cecil Turner]

Fitzgerald said 'he does not anticipate seeking charges against Rove at this time' because he already had brought charges against Rove.

The sad part is that a lot of those folks apparently believe exactly that. (It's so much more compelling than a simple "Leopold lied" (again)). Wonder how many "business hours" we'll have to wait before waving the B.S. flag (again)?

And....since this will leave me EPU'd on previous thread....bear with me....

Leo, that was silly the first time, and weird the next. If it makes you feel better, I feel certain your injured pseudonymous reputation will soon recover its former stature.

[BurbankErnie]

I think the Sub Story over at TruthOut is better then the Plame Investigation.
We now have multiple sources confirming every demented conspiracy theory in this case. It is not only quite amusing, but the absurdity level of Ash and his loyal followers is astounding.
Semanticleo, are you supporting Truthout, or are you giving up the Ghost?

[topsecretk9]

Joe Lauria and The Washington Post's Attacks on Jason Leopold

We are well aware of the Lauria article and the series of attacks The Washington Post has launched against Jason Leopold and Truthout. As always, we will carefully consider all information and then publish a thoughtful response. In this case, we will publish our response on Wednesday, June 21, at 5:00 p.m. Pacific time.

Um..why does it take them so long to respond to crap?

[topsecretk9]

Here's the deal: we won't know the truth of all of this until we know the truth of all of this. I know that many people have completely dumped truthout as a reliable source over this. Frankly, I think that's premature and unfair. As for Leopold, I'm also aware of his sordid past but does that necessarily mean he's wrong on this story? We just don't know and I will not pass judgment on him until all of the details come out. I also think those who have been calling for him to out his sources are being irresponsible. He'll live or die journalistically by this story but his sources need to be protected.

"The very future of this Republic may well rest on whether or not anyone can, or will, stop George W. Bush." George Harleigh

those wild and crazy thruthNUTS..."Here's the deal: we won't know the truth of all of this until we know the truth of all of this. "...how they manage to tie their shoes everyday is a wonder.

[Rick Ballard]

BE,

Tic will never get off the Truthout short bus. He's taken their motto of "We're Special" to heart - please don't be so cruel as to explain the "special" part in a public forum.

[Cecil Turner]

Um..why does it take them so long to respond to crap?

Now, now. It isn't easy being so creative. Mustn't rush the artiste.

(Besides, they have to wait for the propitious moment vis-à-vis current sunspot activity . . . in this case, 12 hours after the Summer Solstice.)

[WhiteCollar Redneck]

This is my favorite quote from TruthOut's latest comment: "...as we press our investigation we find indicators that more of our key facts are correct, not less."

In other words, "We swore originally that this stuff was 100% accurate, but we didn't really know that, but hey, now that we look at it closer, it seems that it really is accurate, and we're as surprised as you are."

Thanks, guys, for a month's worth of laughs.

[clarice]

I'd pay to sit in on one of those editorial sessions. It brings back memories of the Boccardi-Thornburgh report on the meetings at CBS when the TANG memos were challenged and Mapes was lying her ass off to everyone all but one of whom (to her credit) took the bait.

[Monkey Trainer]

Leo

"It's a chapter that has ended. Fitzgerald is a very thorough person. I think he's conducted his investigation in a dignified way. And he's ended his investigation." GWB 6/13/06

How should Libby interpret this?

I think he should interpret it as follows:

1) "it's a chapter that has ended" - the investigation of the "leak" has ended;
2) "Fitzgerald is a very thorough person" - President Bush thinks Fitzgerald is a very thorough person;
3) "I think he's conducted his investigation in a dignified way." - President Bush thinks Fitzgerald has conducted his investigation in a dignified way; and
4) "And he's ended his investigation." - President Bush believes Fitzgerald has ended his investigation.

Please let me know if you need any more things interpreted for you.

By the way, do you believe Truthout is in any way credible?

- MT

[MarkD]

MT,

It can't be true. Unless, of course, Bush told the truth because Bush always lies, so nobody would ever believe him if he told the truth. So by telling the truth, he's lying.

I mean he's too dumb to fool anybody. So by saying what he meant, he fooled everybody.

[topsecretk9]

Remember when Windansea found that bit on Steve Clemmons blog about Armitage being a target? You know the one EW railed against because -- well I don't know why except for the Inman bit seemed to torpedo the Armitage love...

but that web posting was within a few days of Leopold's first bombshell...then imeddiately there was a damage control article done in the NY Daily News that suggested Armitage was Fitz helper really...it also had the stupid claim that Armitage was favorable because he was actually discouraging reporters vs. Rove's "don't get too far out on Wilson" /sacrasm off

I thought about the article because I seem to remember there was that tell tale sign of Wilson in the article AND the suggestion Armitage was
helping indict Rove...

"Rich has been cooperating with Fitzgerald since day one," said another source, who has close ties to Armitage. "He was one of the first people to offer his testimony."

Armitage's office said he was was not available to comment.

Rove has testified five times as a subject of the grand jury probe.

Even if Rove escapes indictment, he could still be forced to resign for talking about Plame with a Time magazine reporter.

"People don't seem to want to talk about the possibility that Karl could be named an unindicted co-conspirator," a third source close to the case said. "Can an unindicted co-conspirator remain at the White House? Personally, I don't think so."

Wilson speaking style to the bone. Now Wilson and Larry were the ones that coined - Karl flipped on Cheney BS at Yearly Kos--but since Larry and TO editor Will Pitt outed Wilson as a helping source of TO's why are lefties so dismissive of Clemmon's Inman scoop (that was backed up mind you!) but so accepting of out and out BSer's Wilson and Larry? And why are lefties ignoring Wilson's involvlement in the Truthnot BS?

One thing...I bet Wilson is not getting as many calls from Main Streamers trolling for info as he once enjoyed...MSM KNOW ecactly who peddaled the story to TruthNot and Schuster...

Prowler: Let's not forget Joe Wilson in the catalog of losers. I have a reporter friend who was standing next to Wilson when Jason Leopold's bogus scoop that Rove's indictment was imminent flashed on Wilson's Blackberry. Wilson, goes the hearsay, was enthusiastic and utterly credulous-- when a prominent liberal columnist involved in the conversation (rhymes with Smellanor Swift) wondered if TruthOut.org was a reputable source and the story could be trusted, Wilson declared firmly, "It's true."

How do you suppose he reacted this morning?

Posted By: John Tabin

[Kevin B]

The short version is a re-hash of the fantasy still prevailing among lefties who can't let go - Rove has given up the key evidence on Cheney, who will be getting his come-uppance within the next 24 business hours

Um, I thought I'd been following this case fairly closely but I seem to have dozed off for a bit and missed a key development.

So, what is Fitz going to get Cheney for?

Outing super secret Val?

I thought she wasn't, and anyway UGO outed her, and Cheney seemed surprised judging by his scribbled comments on the Novak piece, and has any reporter come forward and said Cheney told me super secret Val's name.

Lying to investigators or the GJ?

Has he even given evidence to the GJ? Has he been interogated by the Feds? Has he been invited back be Fitz and asked about it? You know: "Rove said you said this and you said you said that. Any comments?" And everyone in the WH is going along as normal despite the fact that Rove has snithched on Dick?

Masterminding the fiendish plot to punish brave whistleblower Joe?

But is this a crime? Or does Fitz actually have to find something the VP did that is actually, you know, criminal?

[JM Hanes]

PROPS TO DU?

Let me add a prop or two for someone by the screen name "Spatula" who, at that very hour, was actually posting virtually the same information in the lion's den itself on http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2006/6/12/9216/61823>Marc Ash's own "06 cr 128" thread! Said someone was promptly banned, and subsequent posts expunged, but oddly enough, the initial comment remains:

Time Frame
Mr. Ash:

I'm afraid you are being badly burned here. Cases are numbered in consecutive order by filing date, and in fact to call this purported indictment Case "06 cr 128" is incorrect on its face. You couldn't even look it up on the Party/Case index that way. It's possible that you might turn up something using 1-06-cr-128, but correctly labeled, this case would be a variant of 1:06-cr-00128. In identifying and searching for records, laymen typically mistake the importance of specific numerical combinations & punctuation in legal nomenclature.

The numbering system employed by the courts indicate that case 1:06-cr-00128 had to have been filed either on May 16th, as was the preceeding Case 1:06-cr-00127, or on May 17th as was the following Case 1:06-cr-00129. There is no way it could have been filed in the time frame asserted by Mr. Leopold, and defended by you.

As for Mr. Leopold's latest, I cannot conceive of any reason a serious "legal expert" or "legal scholar" would insist on anonymity before commenting on the unusual nature of a "Sealed v Sealed" docket entry. The mistake in identifying the case # itself is only one of several errors in terminology that any knowledgeable party simply would not make.

I would like to think that it is your trust, not solely that of your readers, which is being abused. Unfortunately, the longer you protect the sources of the misinformation Mr. Leopold has been promulgating under TruthOut's banner, the more difficult it will be to salvage what is left of your own reputation outside, and eventually within, your fan base. Even an actual Rove indictment, should one actually come, will only soften the landing, it will not vindicate the travesty of journalism here. What a sorry end for the idealistic enterprise TruthOut once represented.

by Spatula on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:02:41 PM EDT

I posted http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/06/no_charges_agai.html#comment-18476901>similarly here, myself, the next day. Props to tops as well for some of the earliest legwork of all, natch!

[Specter]

Marc Ash is my hero....Not! Think about it this way. The original Leopold article was based on "multiple sources". Jason even promised to out them, although he has now backpedaled on that.

Then Little Marc came out with his - We Are Standing Behind Jason and His Sources article. Note again, multile sources - and this time it included the national news crews that were mysteriously staking out Patton Boggs and never saw Rove, Luskin, or even Fitz.

Then the news that Rove will not be indicted was quickly followed with 06 cr 128 where Marc specifically said (emphasis mine):

Once again we will attempt to clearly separate what we know from what we believe - and why. What we know will be based on official records and official statements. What we believe will be based on single source information and general background information obtained from experts. The conclusions we arrive at should be considered carefully, but not taken as statements of fact, per se.

~snip~

Now for what we believe: We believe that federal criminal indictment "06 cr 128" (Sealed vs. Sealed) is directly related to the Fitzgerald/Plame investigation. That's based on a single credible source and the information discussed above.

Now note that nowhere does Little Marc talk about these multiple sources - especially in the section where he talks about "what we know." When he does get around to sources in this article there is only "a single credible source." Direct contradiction to his and Leopold's original articles. One single source.

Now comes the new article by Marc "I Can't Make Up My Mind" Ash and we find him saying:

Our primary sources for this report are career federal law enforcement and federal government officials speaking on condition of anonymity.

We also have heard (discussed here in another thread - I can't seem to find the specific post) that another character from TO slipped and let us all know that the source was Joe Wilson.

So I guess my question is what is the TRUTH here? Single or multiple sources? TO doesn't seem to be able to make up its' mind.

[Lesley]

Jeralyn Merritt Article Washington Examiner

JOM - Tom Maguire mention

[Gary Maxwell]

Based on Specter recantation of the TO nonsense, I conclude Marc Ash is a liar or a moron ( and perhaps both). I base this on his own words, not some undisclosed source or sources. The little voice whispering in my ear says he probably has some motivation to lie, but I dont have a source at this time. But you can reach my conclusion independently, based on his own meadering trail, while there is no way to reach his unless you can conclude that his sources are not only well informed but also willing to break ethical prohibitions about talking about the case outside of the courtroom.

[Carol Herman]

And, this is what keeps Libby away from his job in the veep's office?

Hopefully, our President, at some point in '06, will call Libby back to work.

This whole thing is a circus.

Sorry for the donks, though. Not enough suckers are born every minute for them. RaTHer, it's slide in the ratings. The stuff that measures success in the real world; where they're proving to be utter failures. Not even capitalizing on very decent stories fit to print.

What creates this madness?

[Jane]

Merritt's piece is oddly contradictory. She touts innocent until proven guilty while on a daily basis encourages just the opposite.

[Jane]

What creates this madness?

BDS

[clarice]

Gary, that's why you can never be an ace anchor on CNN or a Pulitzer prize winning journo. You are not supposed to weigh credibility, assess rationally the statements of "witnesses", or bring to bear ordinary reason to these things. You are supposed to have a rolodex of trusted "experts"--like LJ for CIA--and run with whatever crap they tell you.

[G Wiz]

"I think the Sub Story over at TruthOut is better then the Plame Investigation."

Couldn't agree more! Plame shmame, the TruthOut fiasco is 10x more interesting.

[Rick Ballard]

"Merritt's piece is oddly contradictory."

Only for those who live in a single space/time continuum. For those living in two or more space/time continua there is no contradiction.

If the reality based community would number the reality to which any particular statement refers it would be a great aid to those of us limited to the Sol/3/2006 continuum.

That or they could have their dosage checked.

[Jane]

Has anyone else noticed that things are getting mighty nasty out there? I think Glenn Reynolds is about the most even handed guy in the blogosphere, but today he reports on a bit of a "hatched job" on him by the New Republic. Kos took some shots at him a couple of days ago. As the left continues to get exposed are they trying to return the favor? If so, Instapundit seems like an odd place to start.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

lol, someone pinch me.

Is "They Live" actually the second record returned in an Amazon.com query for "Jason Leopold"?

Link

Someone else want to do a search at Amazon to make sure that the geeks at Amazon aren't just feeding me items from my wish list?

If you don't know about "They Live" than you must read about it.

[Gary Maxwell]

As Reynolds has said ( I paraphrase) He is the of the mind that gay married couple should have closets full of automatic weapons. He fits no mold well. But the lefties can throw rocks at Joe Lieberman who is a liberals liberal on everything except a strong defense so it aint a big stretch to heave more at anyone else. When you a mile out on a pier on the left bank, everyone looks like a righty to you.

[Specter]

Man...that price for News Junkie just keeps going down. Must be amking a killing on the market...LOL

[Patton]

When you think about it...this was ToothOuts only logical way out.

1. Rove is more evil and more conniving then Hitler and probably killed his on Mother.

2. If our sources are lying we'd have to expose them..so they can't be lying they have to be telling the truth.

3. Our audience will snort this stuff like street crack and love every second of it.

This can continue through:
- Rove cuts a deal,
- Rove testifies secretly against Cheney,
- Rove names names and exposes the Ring,
- Rove resigns after provided damning testimony against Bush in secret tribunal trying the President in Abstentia for crimes againt the World.
- Rove makes Soylent Green in his garage.

Its a winner all the way around. They just need to through in the kicker that Bush really outled Plame because she was about to provide damning evidence that Bush has doctored the Iraq WMD intelligence. She had to be stopped.

[Doe]

I just love you guys. Reading JOM is better than eating popcorn. Keep it up!

[clarice]

Tsk tsk--you neglected to show the link to Jeff Gannon, Patton..Some script writer you are.

[Bill in AZ]

Patton, you missed a key part - Rove, Cheney, and Bush stay in office and continue as if nothing happened. Only those of us "in the know" as educated by StrewthOut know that all of those things happened.

[topsecretk9]

Arrianna is bitching and blaming Viveka Novak of Time for f'ing up the Rove indictment

It's been a week since Patrick Fitzgerald decided that he couldn't make the case against Karl Rove, and I'm amazed that more hasn't been made of the role Viveca Novak played in Rove's narrow escape from indictment. She was his human stay-out-of-jail-free card....

...The sad truth is that Novak's perfidy did more to stymie the indictment of Karl Rove than anything else, and while it would be nice to believe that Rove may yet face criminal justice for his actions, it's unlikely that he will.

Well Gee Arianna...I find it amazing more hasn't been made of Matt Cooper's article drafts the Judge deemed so troublesome that Cooper's testimony CAN'T hold up...and so convenient you'd ignore this little get out jail free card since any Rove indictment would be supported by the guy with the little "credibility" problem at Time...but that's just me. Arianna sounds full of sour grapes.

[Patton]

Doesn't Arianna trust ToothOut...Rove has been indicted and is being forced to testify against the entire corrupt adminstration.

Just where does she get her news???!!

[maryrose]

Having just dealt with a situation where someone has lied continuously over a period of time I can attest that it is only a matter of time before the truth does come out. As long as Jason is not held accountable and his sources are protected the false story will continue. I'm sure those dems at that big meeting {Hil included} ans Wilson were really hoping their nefarious plan was working. Sorry but truth and real life will intrude and spoil all their fun. What is lost is credibility and and a window is opened however briefly on just how low their tactics are and that winning at all costs no matter whose reputation you ruin is their mantra. No person of this ilk will ever get my vote or my support.

[Slartibartfast]

You just know that the next claim is going to be that it was REALLY -124, which plausibly could have happened on May 12, don't you?

[crosspatch]

Their behavior is telling. When someone publishes a comment that might point out an inaccuracy or asks hard questions about their methods, they are banned. I can understand banning someone who is disruptive, but banning someone for questioning accuracy speaks volumes more than any of us can here. It shows that "truth" is obviously the least important goal.

An honest reporter of fact should welcome such interactive review if the goal is honest research. It is done in the academic community all the time. When one publishes what one feels is a representation of fact, then one should expect and even welcome such feedback as to provide them with the opportunity to either show the merit of the information/research or to allow it to be rejected as flawed.

When one rejects negative criticism and bars the critic from further input, serious doubt is cast upon the information and it begins to move from fact to "faith based" reporting. Their forum ceases to be a repository of investigative fact becomes a religious text.

Anyone who speaks blasphemy is excommunicated from the congregation. What you are witnessing at "truth"out is a typical fundamentalist religious response to dissent. Heretics are not tolerated. You have to believe in the religion of anti-Bush or be shunned by that community.

[Semanticleo]

Semanticleo, are you supporting Truthout, or are you giving up the Ghost?

Burbank; I support Yogi Berra who said;
"It ain't over, 'till it's over".

[Specter]

And the characters include those initiates: Cassandra, LWelsch, Wonder Woman, Slow Down (AKA mensa-man), sarao, dark duck, etc. Those folks will only welcome you to the debate if you support their POV. If not they attack, complain to their admins, and then you get banned. That is what TO and Marc Ash stand for.

[clarice]

I guess to Arianna, telling the truth to protect the innocent is a crime when your political opponents are involved.

[Semanticleo]

"How should Libby interpret this?

I think he should interpret it as follows:"

Monkey Trainer;

Thanks for your refluxed Bush Simplisms.

But another Libby interpretation could be:

"Pardonnez Mois?"

[Javani]

New on Dridge Report:

Headline: Class Action Suit Filed in Plame Matter

Text: (Herndon, VA) In yet another twist in CIA leak investigation surrounding the White House a class action lawsuit has been filed in northern Virginia. The primary defendant is a website known as "Truthout.org". Plaintiff Chunk Stool alleges that he and "hundreds, maybe thousands of others" were deceived by Truthout's promises of information about the "indictment of Karl Rove" related to the leaking of former CIA employee Valerie Plame. In reliance of these promises the class members gave Truthout donations "in total amount unknown but certainly exceeding the jurisdictional minimum of this Court."...

...Chip Chipstein attorney for Truthout stated to the AP "This suit is frivolous. The donors were all adults. The website gave them what they wanted and some remain happy to still believe Karl Rove was indicted...

...Attorney Brixton said just before publication of this story "They were adults, sure, but they had eggshell egos. Truthout knew the class members had an emotional investment in this issue, and Truthout exploited this to their material advantage." The complaint asks for a return of all money donated to Truthout and moneys for psychological care and monitoring for all class members for "a period not to exceed three years or when President Bush is removed from office, whichever is the shorter."

[Jane]

Anyone who speaks blasphemy is excommunicated from the congregation. What you are witnessing at "truth"out is a typical fundamentalist religious response to dissent. Heretics are not tolerated. You have to believe in the religion of anti-Bush or be shunned by that community.

That stuff has been going on for years. It's the only way the left can keep their message untainted by reality. Gee I can name 2 or 3 BBS' I've been banned from, simply for presenting facts.

[Carol Herman]

On the other hand ... George Soros paid for Truth's Not Out; and there's a growing stain "ringing round the collar."

If you came close to getting a million dollars; but got konked out on the way to collecting your proceeds, what story line would you follow?

Good old George Soros' problems seem to multiply? He's spend a lot. Got no country slipped into his pocket. And, the donks don't seem to be lining up to win anything in November. Whose paying Murtha to behave like such a clown?

ALgore decides he doesn't have to acknowledge Lieberman's existence? Nope. You couldn't be making stuff like this up at all.

Code Pink's a failure, too. Women didn't get a bit of gain for all the public pratfalls they do.

And, like I said, George Soros (like when he backed the Euro), is coming up short in the "results" department.

Most of the time, ravings of lunatics stay on the ambulance; as they get carted place to place. This one's out there in full view.

Of course, not exactly in the "real universe," since blogs are only for those who can read and write. And, who have computers. And, who decide to link to sites that clear up public messes. Make fun of Dan RaTHer, whose still here, even though we're told he's saying "goodbye." Sure takes them long enough, no?

As long as Libby is without his job, I suppose the loonies on the left have won? What do they care for the truth? Russians have gone without it for more than 75 'earth' years. Pravda, my foot. Worse for them, their Cyrillic Alphabet is being torn out of countries where the soviets once ruled. Like in all the stinkystans. So all the street signs; how kids are taught reading skills in school. The whole bit is now done in the Roman Alphabet. (By the way, Aberbizian, etc. All speak a dirivative Turkish tongue. Proving that some of their masters has sticking powers; even when their rules were blown off course.)

What's Soros got now? I bet he's sore!

And, TruthOut(toothout) 'spit-it-out' ... They've got blog problems now, similar to the ones Kevin Drum (Cat blogging Fridays, Cal Pundit), suffered when he cast off Dean, hoping to arouse passions for Wesley Clark. Didn't get to square one.

Even though he writes well enough to have a job within the leftie press. From venture capitalist to jerk with a paycheck. Really, it's not the same. And, Jason Leopold's done harm to his "master." So to speak, similar to Judith Miller's tortured kick in the pants from pinch's organization. And, Run Amok, as a label's been taken.

Not for free, you're seeing this stuff, though.

And, the day the President welcomes Libby back to the White House, THEN, Fitzgerald will feel humiliation. Right now? He wants his paychecks.

Well? We get fed our news, anyway. Just like the Short-Wave brought news to many Europeans, who spent time getting their signals. Because in the chaos of war, with all the smoke and commotion, you don't get a sense that the victors are winning.

We do win, ya know?

[Lesley]

CLARICE!!! WHOO HOO!!!

Superb job on Right Talk - I followed your clear explanations in their entirety, the story hung together in a cohesive fashion (ofcourse I've been following AT, S & L and Riehl World, which helped), beautiful conversational delivery. Dang that was fun, hearing you speak. BRAVA

[clarice]

THANKS! I never know how it's coming off. I am always afraid that it's too detailed for someone whose just listening..I appreciate the generous feedback..

[clarice]

**that is, "WHO'S just listening"************

[charles austin]

I understand Occam's Razor now comes with up to five blades.

[Toog]

A humorous look at the left-wing mind.

[Kate]

OT-has anyone commented on the LA Times story this morning that essentially said that there was no massive coverup on Haditha. In fact, there was just the problem of not asking the right questions.

Not only did Murtha totally misrepresent the confidential briefing he received, but just last week, ABC was talking about charges up the chain of command due to a coverup. I will try to find the link.

But if there are charges it would probably be written or verbal reprimands. Who in the Pentagon is leaking this story in such a biased way. It's beginning to remind me of the coverage of the Plame case with the bad reporting and questionable "sources".

[boris]

"It ain't over, 'till it's over".

It's over.

[DCRob]

Crosspatch is correct that TO is banning commenters whose only offense is that they ridicule TO. I was banned when I posted a comment saying that there are infinite parallel universes and that somewhere on the Planet Zargon, Karl Rove is doing the perp walk right this minute. The comment was removed too. TO can dish it out, but they sure can't take it.

[clarice]

Yes, Kate. Prong one of the Murtha claim--there was a cover up--seems dead. Prong two--cold blooded murder of civilians--is still pending but I know and respect Marines; the CNN reporter embedded with these troops confirms how incredibly discplined they were, and the published reports of the accusers are so incredible and inconsistent that I am certain he will have been proven to slander them as well.

[crosspatch]

I suspect all of these leaks are originating with Democrats in congress, not from the Pentagon. Did ABC specificially say "Pentagon sources?" or did they say simply "sources"?

[verner]

"Good old George Soros' problems seem to multiply? He's spend a lot. Got no country slipped into his pocket. And, the donks don't seem to be lining up to win anything in November. Whose paying Murtha to behave like such a clown?"

Let me tell ya something. Soros needs to ask for his money back. Although, I hope he wastes another 20 million or so. For every dime he donates, the GOP raises $1. All they have to do is mention his name. Can you imagine the TV ads? Joe Blow gets money from the devil billionaire George Soros who wants to take over America..." They'll kill them.

The KOS kids are causing more harm than good. They came off like abunch of tinfoil-hat geeks who couldn't get a date to the prom in Vegas. The press people who pushed the Wilsons are coming off like raving idiots. Howie Kurtz's little item means that Larry Johnson will never again be able to raise his ugly head in the MSM. And now, we have the Wilsonistas in total head thumping meltdown over the letter from Fitz.

Not bad.

Now all we need is for Clarice to take down Human Rights Watch! Go Clarice Go!

[Kate]

Thanks, Clarice.

crosspatch: I'm beginning to think there may be an anti-Administration or anti-Rumsfeld faction in the Pentagon that is actively using this story to advance an agenda.

It seems strange to me that military people would push a story that makes the military look so bad, but we live in strange times.

Let me find that ABC link.

[Kate]

Found it...

The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
Shortcut to: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2029993

[David Walser]

Is there a link to where we can listen to Clarice's performance? I have no doubt she was great, which makes me want to listen all the more.

[crosspatch]

Military sources told ABC News that there are likely to be charges filed against officers up the chain of command in connection with the killing of 24 civilians by U.S. Marines in Haditha, Iraq, in November 2005.

No telling who that might be. "Military sources" could be anyone. "Military officials" or "Pentagon officials" would tend to point to a high ranking source. "Military sources" could be a DoD civilian employee even.

There are plenty of sour grapes around. There are a more than a few partisan civilian employees and there are some generals that are upset that they have been leapfrogged in the career chain by younger officers.

[Lesley]

Clarice Live

[Carol Herman]

Has anyone seen Chris Muir's comic strip, today? Captain's Quarters always has it on top. And, in it, Murtha's on the Star Trek ship, leaving his team behind; punching "GET OUT OF HERE."

I'm going to guess one lone House of Rep creep isn't exactly selling his message across America. And, unlike Jane Fonda, Murtha has an ugly body that rarely happens to Marine types who stay in shape. Muir plays with this shape; as well as the cartoonish characteristics Murtha displays.

Lots of lost causes. But no news, yet, that the TRUTH has a staying power liars ever duplicate. Bush has been masterful at keeping a "no compromise" posture. Lincoln did, too. History remembers things a hell of a lot better than most "current events."

It's also possible, Arrianna Huffington's blog saw Soros money? She sure dipped in with both feet. She even "stole" Breitbart from Drudge.

From where I sit, Drudge does better than his detractors. And, he did throw a life-line to Breitbart. It seems, though the Blogging world is young, that the left's sites lose altitude pretty fast. They seem to be going "pop" like the dot.com's.

[Kate]

Interestingly enough, hatred for Rumsfeld preceeds both the GWOT and Iraq. In fact, the military brass was almost successful in making Rumsfeld the first resignation of the Bush Administration, and then 9/11 happened.

As for Haditha, I notice that none of the accused are in custody. That indicates to me that the situation is murky.

However, Murtha was able to frame this issue for the whole world in a very negative way.

[Dwilkers]

Bizarre.

From what I can tell a solid majority of posters on lefty websites believe that snot from TruthOut.

You'd think...well never mind.

[Specter]

DCRob,

That is what they do over there. Can't take the heat so get rid of the kitchen.

[crosspatch]

Rumsfeld is something of a genius and has been approaching the military as an engineering problem. He has managed to reconfigure it as a modular force where a commander can configure a force from the available modules to face the current threat being faced.

In the old military, we had huge units (divisions) that were pre-configured for the kind of battle we thought they would most likely face. In other words, they were configured for a cold-war type conflict heavy on tanks.

Rumsfeld set out on breaking those up into brigade combat teams and placed more emphasis on special operations forces. This really angered some generals that had been high up in the old division structure. They also didn't seem to fully grasp the power that these modular forces along with modern weapons that have appeared in the past 5 years or so have. Younger officers seem to be "getting it". They like the idea of picking from an array of modules to build a custom force to fight a custom threat. The old line officers are basically lost and upset the the special operations forces are getting all the funding and toys.

Simple fact is, the cold war threat and it's configuration of forces is obsolete. So they are retiring and sniping at Rumsfeld. We can do much more damage these days with far fewer troops than we could even during the first gulf war. When generals complain that we needed a much larger force, they are playing by old obsolete rules. We took the entire country with a relatively small force. Keeping the peace was a problem but that isn't a combat role, that is basically a police role. It hasn't been the role of the US military to be a natinal police force. That is a whole different set of problems we might or might not have to address in the future.

[Lurker]

Congrats, Clarice! Is this your first interview?

Also, do you know about Bruce Kesler requesting HRW to let Mark Garalasco go?

Let Mark Go

[Lurker]

RoadMap of Iraqi exit:

Roadmap (WAPO also)

Iraqi expects to be take over everything by end of year 2008.

[richard mcenroe]

Lurker -- Everything? Well, they can HAVE California...and Massachusetts... and New York...

[Lurker]

ROFL! :) Their own country.

Seceding those states plus New England states will certainly help turn USA around, huh? :-)

I tried to email John Murtha the WAPO link as Austin Bay suggested but he will listen to his own constituents. Sigh.

[Specter]

Wait....I don't want to be part of Iraq.

[Slartibartfast]

...and no thread would be complete without someone whose handle was "Twok" or "Tooq" or some such blogwhoring for the Futurist.

[Lurker]

ROFL, Specter! Sorry for the confusion.

OT: What have you heard about the new bill about the death tax that just came out yesterday? Looks like they are proposing to make the current death tax permanent, instead of expiring in 2010.

EGADS! Why not repeal the death tax in its entirety? Guess making it permanent would be the interim step to the repeal, huh?

[John Allen]

What I find curious is that I read Marc Ash's statement on 06/19/2006 and if my memory serves me correctly it was timestamped approx 4:30 p.m. Pacific time. I just looked at Truthout again and the statement is now dated 06/20/2006. I'm sure it must have been edited in some way but its hard to determine what exactly was changed. I suppose I can try to retrieve an earlier copy from Google cache but I'm curious why they would change the statement without also posting a copy of the original... this is way too important an issue.

[JM Hanes]

John Allen

I think Ash has done a lot of fiddling. In the thread I linked to earlier in the comments here, his original post now has a later date than all the commentary on it which follows!

[megapotamus]

The Truthies are the hard kernel of the nut. Their self-esteem (in apposition to self-respect) is utterly dependent on the realization of this and many another putrid fantasy. What a raft of idiots. Luckily for the Dems at large, that raft is taking on water at rates approaching theoretical maximum. And the band plays on...

[Leguleius]

My money says that "truthout" does have some insider sourcing on this.

My money, and rampant specultion, says their source is none other than Joseph Wilson.

This, of course, is why the cannot, willnot burn their source for the May 12 nonsense.

[BMOC]

GOP'ers are simpletons.

[Jane]

THANKS! I never know how it's coming off.

I listened too Clarice - altho work called about 5 minutes in - One question tho: You and the interviewer kept saying Haditha (short "i") where I have always heard it pronounced Hadeetha. (long "e"). Is the former correct?

[clarice]

Jane, I've no idea how to pronounce it. And with respect to the second claimed atrocity, the military originally said the incident at issue took place in Hamdaniya. Now they say they had the wrong place --it took plance in Hamdania..

Thanks, Lurker..No , it isn't.

The hard thing about Haditha--no matter how you pronounce it--is new stuff keeps turning up--This afternoon S & L has some more information about the earliest (Arab) reports and they are wildly at odds with the stories that follow. (Far more lurid.)
What people have to realize..and I didn't make this point well..is that there are two big reasons for locals to lie (1) they are supporting the insurgents, which I think did come thru, and (2) we pay a fair amount for all persons killed in collateral damage. The last figure I saw was $2500 per which is big money in Iraq. So, there is additional reason to claim that more people were killed in these incidents than actually were. (That seems to explain the lawyer in Haditha's claims.)

[Lurker]

Ha! BMOC
is posting "GOP'ers are simpletons." everywhere.

Take a look at one link.

[Specter]

BMOC? Geeezzzz....give us some of your insight into your comment. Enlighten us with your brilliance oh enlightened one. Tell us why GOP'ers are simpletons oh master.

[Specter]

lurker,

Not sure. I've actually been working on an article about Ned Lamont which I plan to post on a new blog. I'll keep you updated.

[Lurker]

It wasn't? Well, it's still congrats to you. Will there be a transcript available?

I can't believe those reasons you just cited. That's deplorable.

[Kate]

clarice-listened to the interview. Very interesting. I thought the theory of the pattern is interesting. The defense strategy should be to expose this tactic and expose it to the world.

I listened to Bill O'Reilly tonight who sometimes gets on my nerves, but he did insist that we need to start fighting this war seriously, no PC.

He suggests martial law be declared in insurgent strongholds by the Iraqi government and that shoot to kill curfews be enforced. Also, I believe that if you are speeding towards a checkpoint you are going to get shot.

Even our allies (Italy/Spain) feel enboldened to charge our troops with murder for friendly fire incidents. This needs to change.

[Semanticleo]

Specter;

A litle OT, (but then this site doesn't seem
to be dogmatic about that)

Read your 25 rules and find them well thought out. However, you apply them to the left. Mayhaps the reverse (mirror image) could reflect the Right Wing?

[Rick Ballard]

The True Right Wing does not cast reflections. Ever.

[richard mcenroe]

"You are very wise, professor Van Ballard, for man who has yet to steal a single election..."

[richard mcenroe]

kate -- doing ANYTHING seriously does not involve listening to Bill O'Reilly squawk...

[Semanticleo]

"The True Right Wing does not cast reflections. Ever."

That's what they say about Vampires.

[verner]

"clarice-listened to the interview. Very interesting. I thought the theory of the pattern is interesting. The defense strategy should be to expose this tactic and expose it to the world."

And don't forget, a very important part of the strategy includes feeding the Al Qaeda generated garbage to the hate America bullshit artists in the "peace community" and the press.

[Rick Ballard]

Vampires are copycats.

Damned sissies, too.

[Javani]

Clarice:

Has it been determined, or questioned in the first place, whether the "video" shown to the Time mag person is actually of the same event? It could be a different event, even a Saddamist attack.

It would be a clever use of propaganda.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

That's what they say about Vampires.

Oh, congratulations, Leo.

You got the joke.

Still look a little stupid for then trying to explain it back to us, but hell, it's a start.

[crosspatch]

is posting "GOP'ers are simpletons." everywhere.

Yeah, he just learned to type with BOTH fingers and is so excited.

[maryrose]

I didn't hear your interview Clarice and wonder if it is in transcript form?
Thank you for illuminating this issue and getting the true facts out. You are a true patriot.

[maryrose]

Rick:
I agree about vamps being sissies,give me zombies any day.

[clarice]

Javani, we don't even know when the video was made or by whom. The reports from Time about the provenance of the video changes every day. We do know that one of the two men who constitute the Hammurabi organization never mentioned it when he was interviewed in December, a month after the incident.

The snippets I saw of the purported tape on CNN showed bloddy floors, bullet pocked walls, and bodies that were entirely covered up from which one could ascertain nada.

To hear the interview, go here and hit the button above Paul Schiffer. http://rightalk.com/

[Kate]

I think the strongest evidence are pictures taken by the second team that came in after the Marines that were involved in the incident.

I think the video by the Iraqi group can be easily discounted. No one knows when it was taken, it looks like propaganda.

It's the pictures from the military that will prove difficult.

[clarice]

Maryrose, the hero in this Time debunking is the publisher of Sweetness& Light. Dan Riehl and Waldon of the Hawaii Report share the honors. I did no more than take their excellent, hard work and put it in narrative, chronological form so people could see how weak the story was.

Tonight , watching Hume, I was heartened to see that his panel (Liasson, Kondracke and Barnes) all seemed to acknowledge that the story is nothing like Murtha said it was and far from the initial press reports.