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June 26, 2006

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topsecretk9

The fact that your editors believe themselves to be qualified to assess how terrorists are moving money betrays a breathtaking arrogance and a deep misunderstanding of this program and how it works.

Oh Keller, My proxy!

Neo

Keller now comes across crap. He lies, he has a god complex.

This man needs to be fired. This man needs to go to jail. This guy is worse than the Ken Lays of the world; he only did it for money. The Times now look worse than Enron; they only did it for money. Keller does it because he elected himself as the final arbitrator of what is good and wholesome in America. If the Times doesn't fire this clown, they should be brought down like Enron.

These arrogant SOBs.

topsecretk9

You know Neo...

The Times now look worse than Enron; they only did it for money.

I might, MIGHT agree with that, but the proof is in the pudding...they ain't making no money...I will go with illusions of grandeur, though...as in...

If we just do THIS, MAYBE...MAYBE we will crack the Bush Admin, become the heros and start racking in the mullah


...otherwise, I am going with BDS. The Times view---if we're going down--we'll do our damnedest to take Bush with us

crosspatch

Check radioblogger.com for a transcript. I believe Hugh Hewitt played that interview on his program today.

topsecretk9

oops...meant.. the order I think

1. Illusions of grandeur
2. BDS take no prisoners
3. Money

The reason I think #1, is they really do thinks us red-staters are stoopid and so they are wondering why classified story number one didn't work...they'll take their second audience as salvation though (think sloppy reader seconds)...the only people to read the NYT's? Congress.

crosspatch

Also, when I go to AJ's site, I get content from just after Katrina. Been having that problem off and on all day. Mostly on.

Carol Herman

Any bets that the paper wins the pulitzer?

Shameless works. But then, back in 1976 the WaPo had no trouble disguising the #2 guy at the FBI as "Deep Throat." An otherwise porn movie character that had blow jobs looking like sword swallowing.

From there it was but a small step to this.

The bigger question is if there's a strong public outcry. Or not.

One of the reasons the left has no heroes; but still keeps on pumping out its garbage, is that it doesn't seem to awaken outrage across this country. Like an ocean absorbing spit, what clue would Bill Keller get that he's done wrong?

The Saudis probably own all of the players, now. Even George Soros isn't the biggest gambler at that table.

As to the terrorists, once they get checks, their lives seem to get shortened. Their marked. And, then they "go."

The best policy is a terrorist that's dead is one less terrorist. Bringing them to "justice" doesn't work. Again, with silent Saudi backing the NY Times destroyed Gitmo as a lockup.

Though I'll grant ya those going back to Saudi Arabia get their just desserts, just the same.

And, the NY Times? They lack heroes. Bill Keller isn't one. Patrick Fitzgerald isn't one. Some of this stuff is similar to John Kerry's refusal to call the President and conceed. In other words, highly delusional people tend to self-destruct. Of course, faster. please.

vnjagvet

Keller is clearly not one for applying the fundamentals.

He is ignoring the first rule of holes: When in too deep, stop digging.

As we discussed in an earlier thread on this subject, it is now time for the head of a Congressional Committee, or the AG or the Sec. Treas. to appoint a team to investigate those of the Times' sources who blabbed the classified details of the program.

Subpoena the Times to disclose all reporters who participated in investigating the issue and preparing the article. Then subpoena all of them to disclose all of their sources for the classified details.

Then watch the sparks fly.

Politically, prosecuting Keller and the Times is one step too far, although they deserve prosecution. And it is unnecessarily confronting the Constitutional Issues inevitably involved.

Soylent Red

vnjag:

You are correct. Stringing up Keller, while gratifying, is not the best way to burn the NYT down.

Get to the reporters. Make them roll over. Nab the leakers.

Once the possibility of the anonymous leak is handled, no reporter would want to work for Keller. Then it is only a matter of time before he is cast down.

Person of Choler

"Politically, prosecuting Keller and the Times is one step too far....". Huh? If they broke a law, who cares about the political angle?

Too bad for the Rosenbergs that Walter Duranty wasn't around to publish their research results in the Times. He would have gotten another Pulitzer and they could have lived long happy lives on their book royalties.

clarice

I wouldn't foreclose prosecuting the paper at the outset. It is a good first step to make them disclose their sources.
It is a good idea to strip them of press passes to the WH and to forbid all intel agency and defense department employees and contractors to give interviews to them outside of regular press briefings (to which they are not credentialed).
It might seem to be a swell idea to have Congressional hearings but I fear it would devolve to posturing and muddying the waters with blather about the Constitution and privacy issues not at all relevant to the issue.

I wish I could be inside their offices right now and see the responses they are getting to the editors and the circulation department.
And I wish I knew what the Class B stockholders are going to do.

Carol Herman

First of all, the Rosenberg's were guilty. Their own relative turned on them. He wasn't even a college graduate. But he was, I think, the uncle to Ethel. And, he worked (maybe as a custodian), at Los Alamos. They really pressured him! And, he wasn't stupid. (In those days a lot of talented people never got to college.) It was his job to look at drawings. Remember them. And, then copy them for the Rosenberg's. Who pushed this stuff to stalin.

Now, in discussing Keller you're just not in the same type of situation. Nothing is being passed "clendestanly" anywhere. This one is more on along the lines of Deep Throat. And, the taking down of Nixon. "Internal affairs."

But the media can't seem to capture the attention of mainstream America. That's one of the reasons you see the NY Times flailing about. Poking at our War on Terror; which they don't take seriously. (Would they take it seriously if a Klintoon was in charge?) Who knows? They're used to very slippery politicians. And, they're used to yakity-yak. Not action.

Plus, I'm still pretty convinced Keller needed TO BURN DOWN THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE. Not to enflame the public so that we'd get yet another jerk-off prosecutor like Fitzgerald. The air's gone out of that one. (And, congress critters aren't looking to do a thing, either.)

Can you start a fire with a wet newspaper?

Keller left on vacation; so he's somewhat aware that this was gonna cause questions to come his way. And, where do you see the most activity? ON THE BLOGS.

Again,it's the blogs that are moving forward, exploring how Americans feel. And, touching the stories that should impact us. That go uncovered ... not covered ... by the MSM.

C-BS, we know, blinked. And, Dan RaTHer slid out of the eye without so much as a pat on his back. The send off was done in silence. No job. And, no room at Black Rock. Not even for appearances. Dan wasn't even allowed to hang his coat in the broom closet.

What did Dan want? We're past "vindication." That will never happen. But he wanted "landmarks." He wanted to go out on anniversaries. Instead, he just went out. Leaving a trail of "fake but accurate" reporting that led nutwork news into the toilet, when you judge performance by ratings.

Today, somebody said the left pays trolls to visits sites like this, so they could drop stink bombs. It's almost surprising to think someone would be paid to be as stupid as Cleo. But there ya go. Some things just aren't free. Nor are they luv. Though they occur in the shadows. And, other dark places.

I also agree that making an issue of Keller is non-productive. But, if another NY Times reporter gets to sit in jail ... then getting bait (or chum) with fewer pulitzer's attached, can have a withering affect on the "profession" of journalosum. Heck, so many reporters would have to add to their resumes that they're willing to troll for a living.

But where's the payoff in that? I've seen trolls come. And, I've seen them go. And, the only site that failed, that caught my attention as it was going down; was Kevin Drum's Cal Pundit. Next to recipes, cat blogging's are my favorites. But Kevin Drum couldn't pay the overhead when the moonbats got finished with him.

By the way, no one seems to be mentioning that Matt Cooper got dumped by TIME. With his wife's big connections (Mandy Grundwald's on Hillary's payroll); Matt couldn't hold onto his job at Time. His new paycheck is not nearly as illustrious. A has-been already. And, he hasn't even testified for Fitzmas.

I'll bet Keller's pretty angry at the failure of Fitzgerald to deliver! Too many people went to bat for Ambassador Munchausen to get so little returns for their efforts.

That's the motivator under Keller's ass. Mad as all get out. And, he wants to save his paper from disgrace. He lights a backfire. UNFORTUNATELY, nobody yet knows how the winds blow. Congress may yet "act" just to save face? And, Lieberman may yet become an independent. The illiterate Barbra Streisand is backing Lamont.

Well? When your enemy makes mistakes like this, it's wise to stock up on popcorn.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Well I understand these guys better. I was asking in the other thread who Joseph Cirincione and the Carnegie Endowment are? I just watched him testify about prewar WMD. No wonder Keller thinks everyone agrees with him if this is the kind of guy he hangs out with out there in the Hamptons. Can you say Joe Wilson and Larry Johnson?

I think the Times has stepped in it this time though. The administration is taking a much more vocal line here than they did with the NSA. Can't tell if they just feel more secure with the program or if it has to do with Tony Snow and the whole new PR agenda.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Leave it to Sweetness and Light:

Finances of Terror

September 24, 2001, Monday
(NYT); Editorial Desk
Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 30, Column 1,

Organizing the hijacking of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon took significant sums of money. The cost of these plots suggests that putting Osama bin Laden and other international terrorists out of business will require more than diplomatic coalitions and military action. Washington and its allies must also disable the financial networks used by terrorists.

The Bush administration is preparing new laws to help track terrorists through their money-laundering activity and is readying an executive order freezing the assets of known terrorists. Much more is needed, including stricter regulations, the recruitment of specialized investigators and greater cooperation with foreign banking authorities. There must also must be closer coordination among America´s law enforcement, national security and financial regulatory agencies.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Check the date of publication.

Joe P.

Keller's head seems permanently enveloped by what's likely a methane bubble, perhaps not uncoincidentally formed by the same source he believes most, and from whose authority he speaks -probably his lower sigmoid colon by now. He's been movin' on up in some dark world, that's for sure.

Earlier he only seemed to know a lot about "one man circle jerks", which he thought must be like blogging. I guess he has to know something, but not about blogging or "editing out details which might serve the interests of those hostile to the U.S.", which he apparently equates assbackwardly to Cartoons not published due to death threats by Islamic jihadists, while outing important anti-terrorist programs. Lower sigmoid, no doubt, and moving on up in the only way he can. Freedom of the press, indeed!

crosspatch

Blitzer/Keller interview CNN transcript

salmonella5000

You guys are really starting to slur your words and trip over the threshhold like a bunch of drunken stalinists. The only difference is, you try and try, unsuccessfully, to sound as though you are in the Grand Library of the Founding Fathers, wearing your powdered wigs, sipping some sort of VSOP santorum distillate and cajoling a couple of cowering Straussian (Leo, not Johann) whores to defecate on you while you chuckle and accuse everyone else of treason.

Clothe yourselves any way you wish, you're still Squares.

* * *

Carol Herman done wroted:

"One of the reasons the left has no heroes; but...."

I think you just hit a kind of nail right on the head! You and yours need "heroes." Your self-esteem, now and then tied in with a kind of tragic, operatic flag-waving mania, has never been very high, and heroes are easily manufactured for people like you, whether it's the Golden Calf or an American Idol.

We on the Left, as rich, hard-working, Americans, realize that we are, individually, our own heroes. We've never needed the heroes you depend on to make your lives worth living. So... you're just jealous, that's all. You want the spirituality that we earned fair and square, but you don't want to work for it.

Things aren't going well for you and your team lately, and we realize you really, really, really, need a boost, but ramping up the paranoia, the treason accusations, the "homegrown" terrorism, even the treasonous and traitorous plan of the Iraqi PM's to give amnesty to terrorists [amnesty that you're willing to accept because you're not going to win the war on terror, you can only hope that the insurgents will just disappear in Iraq just like the Nazis did in Germany. All those true blue Nazis just went "poof"!], along with your bizarre cut-and-run, flip-flopping, bring-'em-home troop reduction scheme for 2008--none, none and none of it'll save your greedy souls.

Just my two pfennigs, chief. It's okay if you don't publish this comment; I know all you stalinists don't like anyone with an opinion that's different'n yours.

Bukko in Australia

What a hoot! Reading right-wingers defending government spying on their financial records. You probably feel secure because you don't have enough money to make it worthwile for the government to get into it. But remember this, rightists -- it's the government spying on your phone calls, bank accounts, e-mails. What if the old Soviet Union was doing this? What if it was Bill Clinton? How would you like it then? And prosecuting the press -- sounds rather USSR-ish to me. I bet you all believe you're for democracy and the Constitution, but you're just totalitarians at heart. Government power is OK with you, as long as you think it's YOUR brand of government.

How many terrorists has this programme caught? I'll tell you one person it's mucked with -- me. I'm an American-born person who sold a valuable house in San Francisco this year and emigrated to Australia so I could escape the coming economic collapse and rise of fascism. (I'm a nurse so I could get a work visa here.) When we were moving the profits to our Swiss account, the money just vanished for a month. "Problems with the SWIFT code" we were told, even though we had made arrangements with banks on both continents beforehand. When this story camed out, I realised WHY our money went down the rabbit hole. With a bit of arm-twisting, we got the money credited. Lost a month's worth of interest -- that's over $1,000 it cost me, so you penniless buggers can chuckle at that -- but it's OK now.

Am I a terrorist? No -- just a political refugee. And whatever money and time was spent by government agents fiddling with our figures was time they didn't spend looking for terrorists. I'm not sure what the real reason for this scam is. Maybe it's just so they can steal money from wire transfers. Maybe they will turn it into a shakedown -- "You want your funds released? Pay us a $100 expediting fee..." Or to D potential campaign contributors.

At least I have the last laugh. I've got a load of money that's no longer in U.S. dollars, mate. I have a stable unionised job, health insurance and a city with electric trams that are invulnerable to any future petrol crisis. I'm in a country that's freer than the U.S. It's all falling apart in the U.S. It's going to bring you down with it. When it happens, remember there's a Yank in Oz who's laughing at your arses!

crosspatch

What a hoot! Reading right-wingers defending government spying on their financial records.

It would be if that is what this were about. This is about monitoring international wire transfers, has nothing to do with the "financial records" of Americans outside the scope of the above. In fact, it was monitoring of global wire transfers. How else is one to follow the terrorist money?

In the US it has been law for quite a long time to report transactions over $10,000 of any sort. That isn't an issue here.

topsecretk9

--Reading right-wingers defending government spying on their financial records. --

Apparently you haven't read OR know the financial systems as it stand well...Burko...even if you weren't in OZ --you move 10 plus g's for a down payment on a house...guess who is automatically notified? THE US GOV't ===always has been AKA before Bushy, LONG before

So that the US and other countries that face threat ---like Australia-- are tracking big and funny money transfers isn't a SHOCK...bit that the NYT's would like to publish the Al Queda training manual to how it's actually done? Sweet!

topsecretk9

bitchen mate!

topsecretk9

--At least I have the last laugh. I've got a load of money that's no longer in U.S. dollars, mate. I have a stable unionised job, health insurance and a city with electric trams that are invulnerable to any future petrol crisis. I'm in a country that's freer than the U.S. It's all falling apart in the U.S. It's going to bring you down with it. When it happens, remember there's a Yank in Oz who's laughing at your arses!--

I think the minute I read UNIONISEd I began laughing at you.

Sara (The Squiggler)

Let's see, the bank tracking law has been on the books now how long? Oh 1978 ... the illustrious Carter years. You remember those? Loan interest rates at 19%, Iran hostages, etc.

I'd be monitoring someone from San Francisco too. Feel sorry for those Australians though.

MayBee

I'm in a country that's freer than the U.S.

You sure about that?
Legislation in 2003 strengthened police powers to stop and search individuals and the ability of Australia's spy agencies to monitor suspected terrorist groups.
he National Security Act 2004 blocked information that could prejudice national security from being revealed in open court.
The Anti-Terrorism Act, passed in 2005 after the London transit bombings in July, included jail terms for inciting violence, detention of suspects without charge for up to two weeks, and curtailing the movements of suspects and contacts for up to a year.

Anyway, if you are moving money around internationally, I think you probably have the IRS to fear more than anything else.

Patton

And just what would the NYT editorial opinion be if say Karl Rove had provided this classified information to say..Saudi Arabia??

Wouldn't all the leftists today defending the NYT and the leakers be calling for Rove's execution?

Of course they would...even though they just did the same thing.

Patton

I don't remeber all this talk about the people right to know and proper oversight, etc. when Plame's occupation was revealed.

We were told by the left that the people who did that were traitors and needed to be punished to the full extent of the law.

Patton

Bukko sends his love:
"But remember this, rightists -- it's the government spying on your phone calls, bank accounts, e-mails. What if the old Soviet Union was doing this? What if it was Bill Clinton? """"
Then, Bukko, I would be worried, because both the USSR and Bill Clinton wouldn't be doing it for lawful and legitimate reasons.
They have both proven to nefarious and you can thank the rightists for getting rid of them.

" And prosecuting the press -- sounds rather USSR-ish to me.""

Really, sounds like you are very uninformed. The USSR would never have prosecuted the press for violating legitimate government secrets. The newspaper was owned by the government. Those that opposed them weren't given fair trails, the disappeared in the middle of the night. You've proven you had no clue about the USSR, just like you have no clue about defeating terrorists.

Bukko in australia

What's wrong with unions, mate? I get good wages -- time-and-a-half for working Saturdays, time plus 75% on Sundays. Bet you wish you had that. All thanks to unions! Not just at my hospital, but across Aussie society. And workers can't get sacked on a whim -- except the Howard government implemented a "industrial relations" law (the term Aussies have for labour law) that makes it easier for bosses to fire people and change their "conditions" (the overtime, 7 weeks' vacation we get each year, etc.) There were 200,000 people in the streets of Melbourne for a labour protest last November (although it was spring then) and we hope to have that many at tomorrow's protest march (but it's farkin' cold.) You WISH you had conditions like they have here, but you don't have unions, so your jobs are always in jeopardy. Imagine what it would be like if you had security! Life would look a lot different.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate Australia vs. America to you. It's not perfect here, b ut it's not as totalitarian as the U.S. is becoming. What never ceases to amaze me is how working-class people, the ones who aren't millionaires (and I know you're not, because millionaires have better things to do with their times than wank about on blogs) will rise to the defence of a government that is screwing them over to reward the ultra-rich people who are laughing at them even harder than I am at you.

You're being lied to and ripped off, mates, and you don't even get it. The Aussies have a word for that type of animal -- SHEEP!

MayBee

Bukko- I think she was probably laughing at your Aussie-enhance spelling of Unionised. You dropped the zed.

Anyway, I'm sure your newfound mates are just outraged that US and SWIFT used legal means to find the Bali bomber that killed their countrymen.

Besides, it really could never have been just the US using this information, right? I mean the Bali bombings and the London bombings makes me think Indonesia and the UK asked for help. Maybe even Australia. What do you think?

Bukko in Australia

When in Rome, spell as the Romans do! They make it so cumbersome, adding all sorts of extra u's "humour" and switching zeds for s's "antagonise"...

As for the Bali bombing, last week the Indos set free the Muslim cleric from Jema'ah Islamiya who was the spiritual mastermind behind the first big one. (There have been several other attacks.) They did that because the war in Iraq has radicalised the political climate in a country that was once semi-tolerant. This guy is guilty as sin, but to thumb their nose at the West and appease the masses who have had to choose which side they're on, and chose Osama's, he was sprung. It wasn't financial transactions that caught him; it was old-fashioned police work, including some by Aussie investigators who were allowed into Bali to help investigate. That cooperation would not happen today. Indonesia is so cheezed off toward Australia that they're threatening to flood the country with a wave of boat people from West Papua (the half of the island of Borneo that Indonesia tyrannises.)

Isolated in America, you rightists just don't understand how the "war on terror" has increased the level of tension all over the world. It plays out in small ways, like Indonesia adopting a hands-off policy toward illegal fishing boats that poach in the waters off Australia's north coast, and more ethnic tension in East Timor, where the Muslims and the people who went Catholic under colonial Portugal are setting each others' shacks on fire with their families still inside.

What the so-called "culture of life" has done is unleash a wave of death across the world. It's going to wash up on your shores, mate, and all the financial snooping in the world is not going to stop it.

One final thing -- you would be amazed (one of the few words where Aussies keep the zed) at how much anti-American sentiment there is in Australia. This place used to idolise the U.S. Half the prime-time TV programming is American shows, for instance. (Only they get them a year late -- "6 Feet Under" just wrapped up the series...) But now they regard America they way they would a formerly favourite uncle who turned out to be a kiddy fiddler.

Patton

""I get good wages -- time-and-a-half for working Saturdays, time plus 75% on Sundays""

WOW, the Union pays you that much? I thought normally you have to pay them, not the other way around. So where is all this great money coming from...not your fellow hard-working mates I hope.

I don't even have a union and I never have to work Saturdays or Sundays mate and I wouldn't care to. Why does your union make you slave away for the man on the weekends??

davod

Bukko:

Sounds like you are living up north. Either that or Gekkoes have found a way live down south.

PeterUK

To leave the fascinating exploits of the dancing dingo for a moment and return to the subject of the NYT.There was a great deal of pressure on the NYT nor to publish,there will also have been private representations made at very high levels...so the question is what was powerful enough to outweigh the pressures against publishing.
Did the issue sell any more papers for the NYT,always the bottom line for any publication.
There is very likely to be deleterious side effects such as subpoenas and withdrawal of press accreditation.So what were the forces that were greater than this,who could lean on the NYT and get them to publish?
Only two things come to mind fear and money.

MayBee

Isolated in America

Ummm...I'm not in America. Even if I were, I'm sure I'd not be so isloated as you imagine. I'm certain most Americans have a good feel for what is going on in the world where America is concerned.

how much anti-American sentiment there is in Australia. This place used to idolise the U.S.

Australians never idolized the US. They've been anti-American for a long time although they do like some American culture. Mostly, Australians like Australia.

It is ridiculous to blame the problem in East Timor either on the US or the Iraq war. Australia went in there to help quell Muslim-led violence years before there was a President Bush or even Sept 11. Furthermore, it is folly if you are going to pretend tensions between Indonesia and Australia (or religious tensions within Indonesia itself) are anything remotely new or remotely related to the US.

How long have you lived there, mate? Do your Australian friends just think you are like, soooooo Australian?

PeterUK

"you would be amazed (one of the few words where Aussies keep the zed) at how much anti-American sentiment there is in Australia. This place used to idolise the U.S. Half the prime-time TV programming is American shows, for instance. (Only they get them a year late -- "6 Feet Under" just wrapped up the series...) But now they regard America they way they would a formerly favourite uncle who turned out to be a kiddy fiddler."

Has all this transpired since you arrived Bukko?

Bill in AZ

er... bukko, where do those electric trains get their electricity from? by the way, good riddance...

Jane

>Only two things come to mind fear and money.

Never underestimate BDS.

(boring anectdote alert): Mr. Right is a liberal, particularly on issues of civil liberties. But he is a smart, very well read, informed liberal, with a perspective worth listening to.

On Friday when the story broke I asked him if he thought the NY Times should have published it. He said "yes" and then he went on to vent all sorts of outrage about how our civil liberties have been violated by this administration over and over and over again. His claim on which civil liberties was a bit vague (and we've stopped talking about it given our vastly disparate views).

I think Keller is motivated by a genuine fear of the consolidation of executive power. And since he doesn't believe the war is necessary, or even real, he views all of these programs as a means to strip away civil rights.

There is a segment of this population (Mr. Right included) who would prefer to be less safe and more free. The problem is, Mr. Keller was not elected to represent them.

Bukko in Australia

I work weekends because I'm a nurse in a hospital. No way to turn the patients off because it's Saturday and Sunday. And it's because of union power that Aussies -- and you -- have some rights. It was here in Victoria that the movement for the 8-hour day started, something I found out recently.

I've been here since December. No one thinks I'm remotely Australian. I'm the token American wherever I go, and I'm forever being quizzed on "what the bloody hell happened there?" Aussies DID like America, as much as they liked anywhere. "Taking the piss" at the "tall poppies" is an Aussie tradition. But all of them, from the ridgy-didge ockers who are grateful to the U.S. for WW II, to the Italians and Greeks who came here in the 1950s, to the Middle Eastern Muslims and Vietnamese boat people, all regard the U.S. with disgust.

Nice to know you're not in the U.S., MayBee, but my read on Aussie-Indo relations is that they've worsened drastically since the U.S. invasion. But I don't want to hijack this thread. The dingo is dancing out. Just remember, right-wingers -- your leaders are causing your own destruction.

MayBee

Aussie-Indo relations is that they've worsened drastically since the U.S. invasion.

Gee. Was there another country maybe involved in that invasion? Look around you and think about it, maybe it will come to you. In the meantime, I have a great idea. Instead of saying bad things about the US to them- or letting them say bad things about the US to you-try saying bad things about Australia. See how well they receive that. Or better yet, say NICE things about the US to them. Represent our country well, and let them see perhaps they are wrong to think we are so different than they.

It is always a mistake to believe a country you have no political stake (or say) in is free of problems. You are in a bubble.

CS

Bukko, the SWIFT monitoring program doesn't delay transfers. The system would break down completely, plus AQ financial intermediaries just might notice if their money kept disappearing for weeks at a time. Plus no bank would hold still for debits without matching credits on the other end. There are glitches with SWIFT coding all the time, and they're resolved in hours. It's not particle physics. I'd be right pissed at my bank, in your place, but I hope you haven't let them off the hook ("best efforts" disclaimers be damned) out of fear and loathing of the US admin.

I think you're going to be disappointed in Oz, once your new-relationship blinders come off. But I do respect that, unlike so many who swore they'd do it, you actually left the US because of the current administration. You did give up your citizenship, right?

lurker

"

vnjag:

You are correct. Stringing up Keller, while gratifying, is not the best way to burn the NYT down.

Get to the reporters. Make them roll over. Nab the leakers.

Once the possibility of the anonymous leak is handled, no reporter would want to work for Keller. Then it is only a matter of time before he is cast down."

Haven't caught up but do want to point out that the Holtzer indictment included Keller, Litchblau, and Risen. If anything, Keller, Pinch, Litchblau, Risen, and NYT should be indicted. Not alone.

PeterUK

Jane,
Most of us do not belong to the international money transfering classes,any transactions we do do are likely to be by credit card and attract tax,charges or import duty.All transactions over a certain amount are notifiable,this program is to discover unusual transations and money transfers,it simply does not embrace normal transaction.
There are too many of them and the documentation will be profuse.
It would be interesting to see which of Keller's readership transfer money in an unusual way.

lurker

TM - regarding whether Murtha pleaded against publishing it, good point. Good idea to double check.

lurker

"It is a good idea to strip them of press passes to the WH and to forbid all intel agency and defense department employees and contractors to give interviews to them outside of regular press briefings (to which they are not credentialed)."

Good idea. It will help alot but NYT can still have access to the leakers, if the leakers aren't too smart.

TalkLeft mentioned Cooper leaving Times in September to work for the new Conde Nast deal.

Like Mac says, looks like what we've done the last few days is working.

lurker

"

What's wrong with unions, mate? I get good wages -- time-and-a-half for working Saturdays, time plus 75% on Sundays. Bet you wish you had that. All thanks to unions! Not just at my hospital, but across Aussie society. And workers can't get sacked on a whim -- except the Howard government implemented a "industrial relations" law (the term Aussies have for labour law) that makes it easier for bosses to fire people and change their "conditions" (the overtime, 7 weeks' vacation we get each year, etc.) There were 200,000 people in the streets of Melbourne for a labour protest last November (although it was spring then) and we hope to have that many at tomorrow's protest march (but it's farkin' cold.) You WISH you had conditions like they have here, but you don't have unions, so your jobs are always in jeopardy. Imagine what it would be like if you had security! Life would look a lot different."

Take a good, long look at GM. Blame it on the unions for bringing down GM to where it is today.

Good thing my own state does not require union membership as a condition of employment.

lurker

Hhhmmm....John Howard's winning the election again is probably far more reflective of the Australian population than what some of your media tells you, Bukko, an American.

lurker

"Joseph Cirincione is testifying on CSPAN. All Cheny's fault. Not the analyst. This guy sounds gay. What is the Carnegie Endowment?"

From the Bill Keller thread.

Sara, check emptywheel about this CSPAN show:

The Most Damning News that Won't Make Your Local News

"The Senate Dems just held a hearing on pre-war intelligence, an attempt to make up for the fact that Pat Roberts has all but cancelled the Phase II investigation. As witnesses they had:

* Carl Ford ("John Bolton is a Kiss Ass Kick Down Kind of Guy" and former head of INR) [Bolton comment corrected per jonnybutter--got my ass kissing and my down kicking confused]
* Larry Wilkerson (Powell's Chief of Staff and the guy who put together Powell's UN speech)
* Wayne White (INR's principal Iraq analyst)
* Paul Pillar (who worked at the NIO and told Bush Iraq didn't have nukes)
* Joseph Cirincione (former intell)
* Michael Smith (Downing Street Memo reporter)
* Rod Barton (who wasn't allowed to discredit the mobile weapons labs)

(Thanks to Kagro X for making me go broke by watching it)

Anyway, the real fireworks were sparked, twice, by Congressman Walter Jones, who joined the Senate Dems in asking questions.

First, Jones asked how OSP had been able to hijack the intelligence and bring us to war. Larry Wilkerson answered, "The Vice President."

Then, Jones asked Joseph Cirincione if the law had been broken. Quoting from Ellicatt:

[Jones]: Do you feel the law was broken? Congress was responsible for sending troops to Iraq. Do you feel that down the road it could be seen as proven?

[Cirincione]: As deeply flawed as it is, most of it was done legally, they won the policy battles. The question now is in the coverup; are they telling the truth about their roles? These are the landmines; if congress persues this and tries to find the truth of what went wrong, you will get into criminal areas and coverup.

Well, hopefully CSPAN will replay the hearing so maybe ten more people will see this clear indictment of, as Wilkerson said, The Vice President."

Note that the list contains the extreme lefters and their efforts was to blame the VP.

UGH!!

So they had a hearing because Pat Roberts refuses to publish the phase II report.

UGH!!

They even invited Paul Pillar!

lurker

US: NY Times and reporters may be prosecuted

As linked by Mac Ranger.

We will see. Wonder if he knew that Snow, Levey, Kean, Hamilton were talking to NYT at that time.

lurker

TM, check Michelle Malkin. She just posted that Murtha actually said the opposite.

"Keller: “Not all of them urged us not to publish.”: (hotair)

Paul Zrimsek

Shorter Keller: No conceivable harm can come from our story because it's not newsworthy; it doesn't tell anyone anything they don't already know. But we'll be pleased to accept a Pulitzer for it just the same.

Bruce Hayden

As I suggested in a previous thread, I think that actual prosecution of the NYT is not highly probable because of the firestorm it would cause in the MSM. Possible, but not highly probable.

What is IMHO more probable is an investigation to find out who leaked to the NYT, and prosecute them. This has a lot of advantages. First, and foremost, it would send the right message to the employees who are violating, or even considering voilating, their oaths, etc.

And, as importantly, it will hopefully walk right over the NYT and its source confidentiality. They will be faced with giving up their sources and their notes, or face having their reporters languish in jail.

And this is the type of message that they are likely to respect - first, that the paper's reporters are likely to go to jail if they don't give up their sources, and, secondly, that they can't guarantee anonymity for sources who violate U.S. national security laws.

And the best part of the whole thing is that this would all be curtesy of the Plame investigation, which the NYT helped champion.

Sue

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/06/when_it_snows_i.html#comment-19023842>LOL

Sue

that's over $1,000 it cost me, so you penniless buggers can chuckle at that

Get a better stockbroker. Something is wrong if all you lost was a $1,000 for one month's worth of interest. Either that or your idea of a lot of money and mine is not...quite...the...same.

::grin::

Sue

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/06/when_it_snows_i.html#comment-19024184>Top

He also has John Howard. Who stands beside Bush in the WOT. ::grin::

Sue

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/06/when_it_snows_i.html#comment-19025479>Bucko

I'm a trust fund baby with hot ear muffs. Bet you wish you had that. ::grin::

Other Tom

My understanding--without benefit of actually going back to look at the statutes--is that it would be very difficult to get a conviction of the Times under the Espionage Act, because it requires proof of intent to injure the US. The leakers themselves are an entirely different matter. Prosecuting them for unauhorized disclosure of classified information would be a slam dunk. I would hope that a grand jury would be convened, and CIA witnesses subpoenaed. DoJ guidelines call for subpoenaing reporters only as a last resort, but it could very well come to that. This is likely to be a long, slow process; I fervently hope that a grand jury has already been hearing evidence on the NSA leaks.

Redcoat

Bucko

And prosecuting the press -- sounds rather USSR-ish to me.

In the U.S.S.R the government ran the press,nothing was printed without their approval.

Why would they prosecute themselves for writing something they approved?

I see the cloud of Smug followed you from San Fran.

As for more free,go try and buy a gun in Australia.

Other Tom

"SYDNEY (XFN-ASIA) - Australia's economy will struggle to maintain annual growth of three pct as a result of a chronic shortage of skilled labour, according to BIS Shrapnel senior economist, Matthew Hassan." Jesus H. Christ--three percent? What have they got down there--some kind of banana republic? But if they're short on skilled labour, don't worry; the ones they've got are unionized.

Lurker

"is that it would be very difficult to get a conviction of the Times under the Espionage Act, because it requires proof of intent to injure the US."

Maybe that's why Keller said he did not believe there was a war going on and that the arguments put forth by Snow and company were "half-hearted". A CYA in his case?

moflicky

the CNN report is correct, Strata and CBS misunderstood.

"not all of them urged us not to publish".

that leaves Murtha as having encouraged the times to publish secret national security information.

that makes him seditious.

Jane

>Most of us do not belong to the international money transfering classes

Peter,

I'm with you. What I was trying to explain was the Kneejerk reaction by those who actually think on the left. I actually understand it because I felt the same thing in '72 under Nixon. It didn't matter what he did, I was convinced that he was trying to steal my civil liberties.

It is easily and comical to dismiss most lefty wails because they don't think, don't admit we are at war, and have BDS. But I think we are dumb to ignore the concerns (even if they are not legitimate) of people who disagree because they value freedom over security. After all, that really is the ultimate issue here. And the issue may not legitimately apply in this latest leak of the Swift program, but it is a legitimate issue.

What we know, based on the last election, is that the majority places security over freedom. But it's good to remember that is the equation.

owl

lurker
* Michael Smith (Downing Street Memo reporter)

Just curious....is this the same Michael Smith of Mapes/Burkett fame?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144039,00.html
There was a guy named Michael Smith, a freelance journalist in Texas, who worked very closely with Mary Mapes who developed this story. On July 23, he set an e-mail to Mapes that began, "I am close to something that the Bushies are worried about."

Lurker

Jane, if we don't have security over our country, we will lose freedom. The lefties don't understand this. I didn't back in the late 70's and early 80's either but the 9/11 honed in on the importance of balancing security with civil liberties. I'm sure that this had been an ongoing battle starting with our founding fathers but with generations coming and going, each generation has to learn this.

owl

Cooper introduced on FOX as political editor of Time.com .....he's on now

Lurker

Owl, I have no idea. verner might know.

Iran just rejected US deal to no one's surprise.

Europe is going to want us to implement our missile defense program.

PeterUK

Jane,
My larger point was perhaps those who put the "publish and be damned" pressure on Keller were members of the international money transfering classes.Up there, above the believers are those who deal in cold hard cash,many of these may not like the idea that some of their deals are known to the government.Thess are the supra-national,supra political classes,with them everything is business.

Lurker

Well, if Europe wants our anti-missile defense program, then they will have to capitulate on the SWIFT investigation just now started.

Proof of damage by NYT's disclosure of a bit more detailed TFTP / SWIFT program.

Jane

>My larger point was perhaps those who put the "publish and be damned" pressure on Keller were members of the international money transfering classes.


Peter,


Ahhhh, sorry, I missed it. George Soros comes to mind. I'm not sure I think Keller did this out of pressure, although I'm gonna think about that. I think he did it out of spite.

Wilson's a liar

Keller, who was accused of arrogance by Snow, told CNN, "I think it would be arrogant of us to pre-empt the work of Congress and the courts by deciding on our own that these programs are perfectly legal and abuse-proof."

But of course we are perfectly fine preempting the work of Congress in overseeing clandestine government programs and ensuring their secrecy!

I really think this statement is very revealing. Keller's bone to pick is that there were no courts involved in this program. His bone to pick with the NSA program is that surveills people without court warrants. He seems to worship at the altar of the courts and believes that only a "neutral" and "nonpolitical" court (Hahahah, please find me one of those in America) can really judge the "true" legality of a clandestine program. He assumes that the Administration deliberately avoids courts and thus proves that it is afraid of a court declaring its programs illegal; and he believes that in the absence of a court ruling he has no obligation to believe the Administration or its outside legal experts and is entitles to his presumption that the program is, in fact, illegal. I suppose from a liberal point of view that is a reasonable bias, but it is a bias nonetheless and Keller refuses to acknowledge it, coming up with lame excuses like "the public interest" which only opens him up to charges of arrogance and a God complex. He would really be better off just admitting his bias.

Jane

>Jane, if we don't have security over our country, we will lose freedom

Lurker,

I agree with you. Mr. Right was born in a refugee camp in Germany at the end of WW2, so he is no stranger to the freedom v security equation. I suspect that experience was even more chilling than what we went through in the '70's.

Another Bob

Jane | June 27, 2006 at 07:26 AM:

Your last sentence is too broadbrush and incorrectly stereotypes a large number of people. To this Bush voter that was hardly the equation.

Both sides are maintaining my freedoms, one side was (and is) more serious about the security part. And this voter understands I can't ask a government to do a job while denying it a reasonable set of tools with which to accomplish it.

PeterUK

Lurker,
Europe monitors everything,and have done for years,there will be equivalent programmes here,it is just that nobody ever publishes the information,because government really does lean on the press.
Any French newspaper would find itself out of business, if they published this kind of thing here, the editor would soon find doors closed to them,Piers Morgan who published fake Iraq pictures got the boot.Cetainly they could wave goodbye to their OBEs and Knighthoods.

Lurker

"Peter,


Ahhhh, sorry, I missed it. George Soros comes to mind. I'm not sure I think Keller did this out of pressure, although I'm gonna think about that. I think he did it out of spite."

Ah, I missed it, too. In light of Soros's court case in France, it makes more sense.

Perhapse Hugh Hewitt should've asked McManus and, hopefully, Keller if they received pressure from the international banking system?

Interesting that your Mr. Right weighs civil liberties over security because of WWII. There's a difference between the NAZI dictatorship and our republic democracy as far as security and protection of our freedoms.

Lurker

Thanks, PUK.

Funny how our discussions compares to other blogger's Political fallout from NYT leaks.

Little did NYT have any idea how their disclosure not only backfire on them but boost Bush's position.

brenda taylor

SQUIGAND LURKER GUESS WHO ELSE WAS AT THE MEETING GEORGIE MCGOVERN AND HE HAD THE EAR OF BYRON DORGON.SO WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT THE PEOPLE ATTENDING THIS MEETING.

Eilis

One "product" that could be boycotted would be to make sure that there is no New York State candidate for Prez in 2008. Geography trumps party--I realized that hearing Ted Kennedy praise Romney. Kennedy would prefer Romney over Hillary and the NYT would take Rudi over any of the other dems.

Wilson's a liar

I wonder if Keller has a clue about his own credibility problem. After Jayson Blair, Judy Miller, the "RATS" ad story, and Joe Wilson's pack-o'lies, The Times really has created the presumption that it is gullible to any leaker with an agenda, and that is does a totally crappy job of verifying such information when it gets it. Which is why we must continue to demand that Keller NAME HIS SOURCES. As Rich Lowry has pointed out today at NRO, it is hypocritical almost to the point of comedy that Keller has decreed that only HIS secrets are worth keeping from the public.

Paul Zrimsek
Keller's bone to pick is that there were no courts involved in this program. His bone to pick with the NSA program is that surveills people without court warrants.

The remarkable thing is that if we take Keller at his word he has no bones to pick with anything, and the policy of the NYT now is simply to publish any and all classified information which falls into its hands. Picking and choosing would pre-empt the work of Congress and the courts!

Patton

Since the NYT believes in such openess and the peoples right to know, why don't they release reports/transcipts of their discussions and notes from their meetings with adminstration officials and others like the 9/11 Commission regarding the impacts of their actions??

Where is the peoples right to know when it comes to seeing what was really said to you, and what you said in reply??

JohnH

The Admin must be worrying about being seen as being too authoritarian if it prosecutes the NYT. How successful will the campaign be to call Bush a fascist for "muzzling" the press?

I think that what needs to be done right away is to start talking about the big, big problem that we have with govt employees who are calling up newspaper reporters and spilling security program details. Let Tony Snow talk about how serious this is, and then the public will see the need to go after the reporters' sources.

I was very gratified by Secretary Snow's letter to the NYT, but I haven't heard enough about the problem of employees who have been entrusted with the security of the country committing crimes that have nothing to do with "freedom of the press."

Carol Herman

Nope. I'm not going to assume that the NY Times lives in a hermetically sealed environment.

And, it dawned on me they FIRE all their editors in chief. From AM Rosenthal, on down. Each and every one of them got the boot.

Bill Keller entered when Boyd got the boot. And, pinch ran around with his moose. WHen he wants to show displeasure, he seats his moose head on your chair.

So you just never know.

Stock B holders of NY Times shares have NO voting rights! (Ta ta. The same is true with Berkshire Hathaway! Even though, there, the Gates are his best-best friends.)

Voting rights belongs to the Class A holders. And, that's the "family."

But right now there's distress inside the family.

I have no idea what our government will do.

I did read, yesterday, the piece by Ben Stein, about his dinner at Karl Rove's house. And, he pointed out Rove is genetically engineered NOT to have ONE mean bone in his body. It explains a lot. Including that it's hardly likely press passes will be ripped from the idiots at the NY Times.

The backfire to removing passes would be "WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO HIDE?" It's the wrong wind to push on this fire.

And, as I am saying; Bush wouldn't do it. And, Tony Snow is very competent. He's not gonna fuss. Heck, he deals with Helen THomas, without throwing that old hag out of the room.

So, again. Without mainstream America flailing its arms, and raising its voices high, there's little likelihood there's enough gas in the HOUSE to do "hearings." It's the ghost of those old HUAC hearings that stires fears and laughters. Plus, in the senate, old Joe McCarthy cut too close to the image of dicator for today's senators to put on a pair of his shoes.

Nope. In today's world IF there's gonna be "action" against Keller and "company," (Meaning pinch). Then, the opportunists that exists in all these organizations where back stabbing is the way you deal with others; then, yes. That "could" happen.

Not overnight.

But we're looking at a time of "firings," anyway. Dan RaTHer got silently tossed out of the eye. And, Matt Cooper (a lot of good it did him to have a powerhouse wife); is now gone from Time.

Yes, when Judith Miller got fired, it looked like everybody at the NY Times were piling it on her. She looked alone. And, Bill Keller looked like the captain of that ship.

Mutiny's happen. Especially, as you say, Clarice, you just wish you could be there when the circulation department comes in. Or the subscribers letters pile up. Here, even the Saudis can't be too happy. Their fakery doesn't come off well when we speak of the FUNDING of terrorists, now does it?

What would be gained by firing Bill Keller? For one thing, the family would be using an ox to gore pinch. Who'd follow? All bets are off if they go out and "hire" Matt Cooper.

But so far those who step in it aren't called to run bigger stuff. Here, I'm just enjoying my popcorn. Bill Keller was getting advice not to do what he did. He ran out of town. And, his letter of "well, the opposition wasn't enthusiastic," now rings hollow.

Please, no more hearings! No more special prosecutors! There are better ways to skin this fish wrap.

Davebo

Hey, if nothing else the Times story seems to have forced the administration to brief congress on the program.

Oh wait, didn't they claim they'd been doing that all along?

Wilson's a liar

I continue to believe the MSM is being hoist on its own petard because it still thinks this is the 1970s and everything is Vietnam and Watergate, and they rule the roost. The public just doesn't agree, even if the Pulitzer Committee does. They continue to hype Murtha and Kerry and the people don't care. They continue to shout Haditha=My Lai and the public isn't buying it. They are trying to turn Bush into Nixon with the secrecy bullshit but the playbook isn't working this time. 9/11 really did change the board, but they're still playing from their 1974 Mah Jongg card.

Davebo
the policy of the NYT now is simply to publish any and all classified information which falls into its hands.

Classified? Says who?

“The settlement of international transactions is usually handled through correspondent banking relationships or large-value message and payment systems, such as the SWIFT, Fedwire or CHIPS systems in the United States of America. Such international clearance centres are critical to processing international banking transactions and are rich with payment information. The United States has begun to apply new monitoring techniques to spot and verify suspicious transactions. The Group recommends the adoption of similar mechanisms by other countries.”

Suggestions that SWIFT and other similar transactions should be monitored by investigative agencies dealing with terrorism, money laundering and other criminal activity have been out there for some time. An MIT paper discussed the pros and cons of such practices back in 1995. Canada’s Financial Intelligence Unit, FINTRAC,, for one, has acknowledged receiving information on Canadian origin SWIFT transactions since 2002. Of course, this info is provided by the banks themselves.

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/06/reports_of_us_monitoring_of_sw.php

Ignorance? Or good old faux outrage?

topsecretk9

I've been here since December. No one thinks I'm remotely Australian. I'm the token American wherever I go,

Sorry, but this is all you need to know.

topsecretk9

--the policy of the NYT now is simply to publish any and all classified information which falls into its hands.--

The official US publisher of the Al Queada training manual.

Davebo

Given the well documented mendacity of TM, I've gotta go with faux outrage.

But he's certainly welcome to make a case for ignorance.

boris

For a habitual speeder there's a big difference between knowing there might be a speed trap somewhere on the road verses knowing right where it is.

For the drug smuggler there's a big difference between knowing there might be customs agents somewhere on the border verses knowing right where they are.

For the burgler there's a big difference between knowing there might be armed security guards somewhere in the neighborhood verses knowing right where they are not.

The idiots who don't know the difference should get a clue.

Specter

So davebo,

What did TM say that was lying; not true?

Carol Herman

Let's say you're right, Jane. According to your liberal friend there was no downside (in Bill Keller's mind) against publishing.

But there's still "something out there." Not just liberal rantings about "lost rights." But, to use an example, in WW2, we labeled the Nazi's and Jap's, CORRECTLY. After the war was over, both countries (plus lots of others in Europe) were devasted. And, stalin got a package of goodies from the USA, not so much because FDR was dying; but because it fit into his principals NOT to trust the Europeans. (You can see that by the very slow way he approached the declared war against Germany. It was declared in 1939. We enter only after Pearl Harbor. And, then it took us six months to put to sea.

In a side note, to Winston Churchill, prior to our involvement in "this European" affair; Japan was gobbling up the Pacific. AND, FDR told Churchill, outright, that "at the end of the war you guys will have to give up your colonies." Americans would NOT participate in COLONIES. It's been pretty obvious that this is how we view wars. Even our current one.

And, I mention it, because the ELEPHANT in the GOPster's living room, are the SAUDIs. Everybody knows where the money to fund terror comes from. But we're way too polite to do anything about it. It's not an upturned apple cart now. And, it probably never will be, either.

So "tracking funds" of terrorists is a misnomer, when seen from above. Where the ELEPHANT's existence is denied. This really doesn't go over well with Middle America. Not since day one, did elites and munchkins from the Ivory Tower hold any sway here. And, lawyers don't account for much of nothing, either.

Again, the only way I see "something" happened to Bill Keller's job is IF this happens from the inside.

And, like I said. It's not a bad time to go out and buy popcorn. And, pull up a chair.

Because the donks, themselves, are dividing into groups. The moonbats, for instance, who want Lamont. And, the more normal people, who are rooting for Lieberman. Yesterday, at Drudge, the headline went up that Barbra Streisand is rooting for Lamont.

And, this is probably true inside the bastions of the NY Times. And, the WaPo. So, disgust can be fanned, flamed, and even faked. If it serves a greater purpose.

Keller lit the fire to get rid of Patrick Fitzgerald. For this, he will be blessed. But, maybe, not by everybody? No, Iago in their midst? No one with ambitions? All weak kneed individuals who aren't weighing in?

Dan RaTHer fell out. So did Matt Cooper. They go without parties.

And, if this doesn't blow over; long before anything else happens, the "spaceship" blows up ... and scatters bits and pieces of the once mighty donk empire, all around.

You don't think it could happen? You think we can legislate our war against terror? How so?

By the way, survivors dream as coming back as "independents." It's fundable. Corzine has money. All sorts of people come out to bid on the remains of once great entities. There may be a crown for sale, here?

gregdn

The war on terror has more in common with the war on drugs than it does with WWII.
You people need to question everything your government tells you, and not just accept it on faith. The Times (and the Wall Street Journal, BTW) did us a favor.

db

I am so proud to see so many supporters of our govedrnment! That's so heartwarming. I Heart government. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

If you are doing nothing wrong, you should have no problem with the government doing anything it feels it needs to. Why history is chock full of heartwarming stories of governments, through self-restraint and the highest ehtical creed, working dilligently behind the scenes in total secret without any oversight at all for the good of the common citizen.

Horray for government. HORRAY for unaccountable government working in total secrecy and without checks or balances or any accountability or pesky rules to get in the way. Lock up the journalists. Kill them. Execute them. Drive them in to exile. They are yucky. They are mean. They are liberals.

Neo

"the anti-terror program would no longer be effective if it became known, because international bankers would be unwilling to cooperate and terrorists would find other ways to move money"

I find it almost impossible to believe the editors of the New York Times did not understand the logic of this statement, but assuming they didn't, it needs some explaining.

First, Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT)">http://www.swift.com/">(SWIFT) provides messaging services. It is not a bank or financial institution subject to banking regulation. Second, SWIFT is based in Belgium and, except for branches in the US, is not subject to US laws or courts. This renders the arguments about Congressional and Judicial review pretty much, but not completely, moot. The Bush administration used an administrative subpoena to obtain records officially through the US branches. But being foreign based, this also means that the management of SWIFT could cut off, if they felt it might endanger their business relationships, information of any transaction not originating or terminating in the US. Of course, by law, these are the only transactions that the CIA could take interest in. So the arrangement was a cooperative agreement where "mum" was the word. The CIA got access to foreign transactions and SWIFT had their business relationships secured.

The notion of secure relationships should be a simple matter for a newspaper that gives confidentiality to sources who might otherwise be uncooperative, so the editors of the Times are either stupid or lying, or perhaps they think we are stupid.

The Unbeliever

Hey, if nothing else the Times story seems to have forced the administration to brief congress on the program.

An astounding gotcha by Davebo!... oh wait, it seems he forgot to read the paragraphs in that article after the one he based his claim on:

A spokesman for the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.), said the lawmaker was briefed on the program shortly after he became chairman in 2004.

In the Senate, the Treasury Department had briefed ranking members of the Intelligence Committee periodically since shortly after the program was launched, but it did not brief the full panel until last month, said a senior Senate aide

I suppose we're now going to get the stale hue-and-cry about the full panel not getting the briefings, along with the usual disdain for OPSEC or the need to keep secret programs, y'know, secret.

boris

The war on terror has more in common with the war on drugs than it does with WWII.

Victim of the drug war wre you? Or just on drugs?

owl

Guess FOX didn't get the memo on Cooper since today's intro was Time.com editor and bottom of screen said Time Magazine.

Cojes

How mauch was Plame payed by 'Vanity Fair' to admit she was a CIA operations officer, paramilitarily trained?

Neo

Hey, if nothing else the Times story seems to have forced the administration to brief congress on the program.

For gosh-sakes, the administration even got Rep. Murtha to talk to the Times, before they printed it. Rendering the above statement as stupid as it is ugly.

If all of Congress wants to briefed on every now defunct intelligence program, the Times could run a series, starting in 1776. This should keep them downing trees for months.

clarice

It seems obvious to me that they moved him to the online edition to lower his visibility and they want him off the payroll before the Libby trial--are they reimbursing Conde Nast to take him off their hands?

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame