Zaladonis Ex Machina

Are Michal Kranish, Boston Globe reporter and Douglas Brinkley, historian and Kerry hagiographer, capable of eliciting relevant information during an interview?  If so, their own interview notes might shed some light on a Swift Boat mystery the NY Times chose to resurrect last Saturday.  The puzzle - how can four men fit in a three man boat?  Answer - they can't, so who is lying, or misremembering, when they say they were?

"Bill Schachte was not on that skimmer," Mr. Kerry says firmly. "He was not on that skimmer. It is a lie to suggest that he was out there on that skimmer."

He shows a photograph of the skimmer being towed behind his Swift boat, insisting that it could barely fit three people, himself and two others.

"The three guys who in fact were in the boat all say he wasn't there and will tell you he wasn't there. We know he wasn't there, and we have all kinds of ways of proving it."

What, the casual reader may have wondered, was Kerry going on about?  Kerry won his first Purple Heart for a brief encounter with the Viet Cong on Dec 2, 1968.  Kerry and two other men were in a "skimmer", a Boston Whaler whose mission was surveillance and interdiction of Viet Cong along the coast and upriver; they were supported by a Swift Boat commanded by Michael Voss.

Kerry and the others saw suspicious movement and fired their weapons at men on the coast who ran off; it is not clear from the witnesses whether there was return fire, but Kerry did endure a minor shrapnel wound (perhaps accidentally self-inflicted), thus qualifying for a Purple Heart.

His critics have alleged that the wound was minor and not incurred while engaging the enemy, and hence did not qualify for a medal.  I disagree, but think that the critics are looking in the wrong direction.

During the summer of 2004, Admiral Schachte (ret.) came forward with a bit of a bombshell, claiming that he had been in command of the three man mission with Kerry and one enlisted man in the boat (Bob Novak, Lisa Myers).  This flatly contradicted Kerry's claims that he had led two enlisted men in the skimmer; it also contradicted sailors Zaladonis and Runyon, who had come forward in early 2004 (Feb 20, 2004, Cox News Service) and identified themselves as the two men in the skimmer with Kerry.

And where are we now?  Basically, where we were in the summer of 2004 - the debate moved on, Kerry lost the election, no one cares, and yet now the Times is front-paging the news that Kerry intends to revisit these points and vindicate himself.

I think we can rely on the Times to provide zero follow-up, so let me ask again some questions that occurred to me way back when - just why do we believe Zaladonis and/or Runyon were on that skimmer, and can anyone explain an odd lapse in interview technique by both Brinkley and Kranish?

The oddity is this - based on my (possibly flawed) effort with Lexis and Google, the earliest mention I can find of Runyon and Zaladonis serving with Kerry on this mission is a Feb 20, 2004 Cox News Service story describing Runyon's re-appearance in Kerry's life after all these years.

However - both Brinkley and Kranish interviewed Zaladonis in 2003, Brinkley for "Tour of Duty" and Kranish for a Boston Globe series, "John Kerry: Candidate in the Making".  Why did they interview him?  Because he served under Kerry on PCF-44 from Dec 6 to late January.  Yet somehow, neither he nor Kerry happened to mention the exciting circumstances under which they first met a few days earlier on Dec 2.  Or, if Zaladonis did mention it, neither Brinkley nor Kranish noted that they had an eye-witness to Kerry's first medal.  That is some fine interview technique!

So - did either of these worthies sit down with Zaladonis and ask anything like, "How did you first meet Kerry?"; "Do you remember any specific events with Kerry?"; or "Do you ever talk about John Kerry stories with your friends?"

They all seem like reasonable questions for a profile on John Kerry, yes?  And if we believe Zaladonis, there can't be any question but that he considered the skimmer op to be quite memorable - here is part of what he said to Lisa Myers of NBC News on Aug 27, 2004:

Myers:  It was 35 years ago; how certain are you that Bill Schachte was not there that night?

Zaladonis: I'm absolutely positive.  Absolutely positive.  I don't remember every incident or everything that happened that night.  But I do remember who was on the boat and remember it very plainly.  Very plainly…  Like I said, it was one of the scariest nights I've had in my life.  And Pat and I have shared this story a few times since we've been out of the Navy.  We've been very good friends ever since we've been—when we were in the Navy and out – and this is something that we talked about every now and then.

So it was one of his scariest nights in Vietnam, he discussed it from time to time with Pat Runyon, but he never mentioned it when Brinkley and Kranish asked him for any good Kerry stories?  Or did they just not ask?  (I see in his "Interviews" section that Brinkley had "multiple" interviews with the evidently laconic Mr. Zaladonis, and none with Pat Runyon).

Well, Brinkley is not going to respond to this, unless it is to ratify Kerry's position.  I suspect it will be left to future historians to judge his record on his coverage of Kerry, since the truth will out, eventually.

Kranish is a different story, however - he did go back and check his interview notes with Schachte (who is also quoted in the Globe 2003 piece) and concluded that Schachte's original interview had skipped past the key plot points.

However, there is no indication that Mr. Kranish undertook a similar exercise for Zaladonis, who was identified in April 2004 by the Globe as having been on the skimmer:

Kerry's crew spotted some people running from a sampan, a flat-bottomed boat, to a nearby shoreline, according to two men serving alongside Kerry that night, William Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon.

No explanation is offered as to why these two are known to be on the crew, although the point did not become controversial until August.

From the Globe, we see that "Michael Kranish can be reached at kranish@globe.com".

Since the Times has re-surfaced this, and since Kerry seems to be intent on re-fighting it, I am going to exhort Mr. Kranish to take another stab at this, with an emphasis on just what he and Mr. Zaladonis discussed in 2003.  My hope is that there is a plausible reason that Zaladonis was not tabbed as being on the skimmer with Kerry back then.

Some day we still hope to see Kerry's War Notes, and maybe even the application and witness statement supporting his first Purple Heart currently in the Naval Archives.  Douglas Brinkley is an historian, but I think it may take other historians to address this.

And are there other places to look for clues?  Well, the unit records for then-Lt. Schachte's group should have some accounts of the other skimmer ops ostensibly led by Schachte, who told Lisa Myers and Bob Novak that, as the originator of the idea, he went on each mission.  Can records confirm or disprove that?  My impression is that some folks out there are deeply conversant with the Naval Archives, so any assistance would be appreciated.

And a long-shot would be to check histories of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War - Zaladonis said he did not join, so disproving that would fracture his credibility.

I have early "Zaladonis" citations below - Lexis has been inexplicably balky for me, but this seems to be every reference relevant to "Zaladonis" linked with Kerry from Jan 1990 to April 1, 2004.  I still need to check alternate spellings - the Wash Times used "Zaldonis" in one story.

ERRATA:  For reasons I can't explain, Brinkley thanks Zaladonis, among others, for his contribution to the chapter titled "The Medals".  However, that chapter covers the action on PCF-94, where Kerry won his second and third Purple Hearts and his Silver and Bronze Stars; since he was on PCF-44 with Kerry, one wonders why Zaladonis is here.  Maybe it is a subconscious cry for help from Brinkley, who knew Zaladonis witnessed a medal but couldn't put his finger on which one.  Or maybe Zaladonis was on another boat involved with one of Kerry's medals.

Also puzzling - on p. 160, Brinkley tells us that, of all his PCF-44 crew, Zaladonis was the hardest for Kerry to get to know.  This, despite the bonding rite of passage a few days before they sailed?  Brinkley then records Kerry reminiscing about Zaladonis without mentioning their heroic night together.  Weird.

Useful Citations:

Zaladonis - mentioned as having served with Dan Droz in this Oct 10, 2002 story:

A daughter awakens a tale of honor and of a spirit ravaged by war
Kansas City Star

Zaladonis, Feb 15 2004; Kerry as war protestor; Free Republic partial.

Zaladonis, Feb 20, 2004 - A Wash Times article about Kerry as war protestor:

John Forbes Kerry, who has voiced his presidential aspirations since high school, criticized America's "intervention" in Vietnam before going to the war, confirmed his beliefs during five months of duty there and returned to build a career in politics based on his opposition to it.

...Bill Zaladonis, an engineman on Mr. Kerry's boat, remembers that the future senator fought bravely and honorably. But, he said, some veterans simply will never forget what Mr. Kerry did after the war.
    "It doesn't matter what he does, they'll never forgive him," Mr. Zaladonis said from his home in Florida. "One of my best friends says he'll never vote for John Kerry — not even for dog catcher."

..."I really lost it when they started talking about those atrocities," said Mr. Zaladonis. "That was more than a lot of us could take." Still, he said, it was courageous of Mr. Kerry to stand up and speak out, even if he didn't agree with him.

March 4, 2004: Zaladonis non-commital on support for Kerry

Kerry Goes On Offensive In Florida

Tampa Tribune (florida), NATION/WORLD, Pg. 1

March, 04 2004

WILLIAM MARCH

1016 words

ORLANDO - John Kerry launched his general election campaign with a "town hall meeting on America's security" Wednesday, signaling he will challenge President Bush in Florida and take the offensive on national defense issues.

Surrounded by members of firefighter and law enforcement unions in Orlando, the Democrat charged that the Republican president hasn't lived up to pledges made after the Sept. 11 attacks to bolster border security, police and fire protection.

...He didn't receive a ready endorsement from Bill Zaladonis,  an engine man on Kerry's  gunboat during the Vietnam War.

Kerry  praised Zaladonis,  now retired in Sanford, saying the crew relied on his work in tight spots. Zaladonis  wouldn't commit publicly to Kerry,  saying he did not go along with Kerry  in joining Vietnam Veterans Against the War after serving overseas.

"That's a private matter," Zaladonis  told reporters when asked how he would vote in November. Later, when pressed, he said he "probably" would back Kerry,  noting: "I'm no great fan of George Bush."

Feb 20, 2004 Cox News service story - Runyon and Zaladonis are together (at last!).  I have a fair-use excerpt here, and will pull this out:

Byline: James Kuhnhenn

Feb. 20--DAYTON, Ohio -- It happened again. John Kerry reunited this week with another former seaman with whom he shared a harrowing night 35 years ago in a dark finger of water in Vietnam.

Patrick Runyon, a 58-year-old shipping clerk from Eaton, Ohio, showed up at a local union headquarters where Kerry was to speak and reintroduced himself to the Massachusetts senator. Runyon wanted to find out whether Kerry recalled their single nighttime mission as well as he did.

"He remembered quite a bit of it," Runyon said in an interview about his private meeting with Kerry.

...

The skirmish involving Runyon occurred one night in early 1969. Kerry, Runyon and Bill Zaldonis, who was Kerry's Swift boat engine man, were assigned to a small Boston Whaler to patrol a peninsula north of Cam Ranh in search of Viet Cong in South Vietnam's "no man zone."

"It was very dark, really," Runyon said. "Then we seen some cross the water. A silhouette. Mr. Kerry saw them with starlight scope. He said, 'I'm gonna pop a flare.' When he popped the flare I started the engine. We got going."

Kerry recalls the episode in "Tour of Duty," historian Doug Brinkley's book about the senator's service in the war and his ensuing antiwar stance.

"The light from the flares started to fade, the air was full of explosions. My M-16 jammed, and as I bent down in the boat to grab another gun, a stinging piece of heat socked into my arm and just seemed to burn like hell," Kerry says in the book.

It was Kerry's first real action, and it earned him his first of three Purple Hearts.

Neither Kerry nor Runyon has any idea whether they wounded or killed the enemy. In the book, Kerry says he and his crew strafed the beach, then destroyed the sampan the Vietnamese had beached.

"It was just a scary moment in our lives," Runyon said.

He'd never seen Kerry again. Until this week.

When Kerry landed in Dayton on Wednesday he was alerted to Runyon by an article in that day's Dayton Daily News. Kerry wasn't sure he remembered Runyon and asked to meet Runyon and his wife, Anne, privately, out of sight of journalists.

"I wanted to see if he remembered the incident," Runyon said. "I knew he wouldn't remember me."

Runyon said he followed Kerry's career from the moment Kerry became an antiwar activist as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

"The man had done his duty," Runyon said. "Then he came back and protested. That's the right way to do it, instead of running off or hiding away in college."

Runyon has been disaffected with politics since Vietnam. "I lost interest after that," he said.

But now, he's willing to reconsider.

"If it does help, I'm definitely going to register and vote for him," Runyon said.

Comments

[Appalled Moderate]

I am not sure we need the War of 1970 to put the stake in the heart of John Kerry when the campaign of 2004 is so close at hand. But it does give one something to do between Fitz and Team Libby filings....

[clarice]

I think it's a brilliant job, TM. Add that to the Capt's work on Alston and we can all say "bring it on."
Brinkley was last seen by me hiding in the boat that carried Sean Penn thru NO after Katrina in his famous photo op rescue effort. I take it his academic speciality is narcissistic boaters who like to be portrayed as heroes.

[Javani]

Maybe they're all truthful. Maybe it was different occasions. This is plausible because nothing significant happened on these sorties, like a noticeable wound to Kerry, that would "sear" the occasion in their minds.

[clarice]

I like the way Brinkley and Kerry played pass the knish with Brinkley saying he could release the materials Kerry gave him only with Kerry's permission and Kerry said Brinkley has the stuff, get it from him.

Maybe TM ought to invite the boatmen's favorite historian in for tea and cakes while he ask him some questions.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

I take it his academic speciality is narcissistic boaters who like to be portrayed as heroes.

I was having a semi bad day and then I read this and laughed so hard the day has turned around. Thanks Clarice. LOL

[Willi March]

i was over at Sexion and he has an article on Kerry's hiring during the last election.

'Daou's history reminds me alot of other bloggers who seem to want to work for the government. Kerry made huge mistakes in his hiring, especially foreign policy. He should be very comfortable with Larry Johnson types, TPM, Agontist, Loepold, Waas, and Registran. 'Experts' based on the fact they write blogs and occasionally allow comments on their genious. They are basically the same as reitred US govenment employees without the bona fides, not that either is intelligent or wanted.'

[ed]

Anyone have a look at the Libby docs York wrote up this afternoon?

[clarice]

You're welcome, Sara.

[Tom Maguire]

Add that to the Capt's work on Alston and we can all say "bring it on."

Why I can't remember to mention that is yet another mystery here.

But it does give one something to do between Fitz and Team Libby filings....

I do seem to enjoy getting sucked into these under-researched quagmires.

[readingforfun]

Alston was back on PCF 94 around the first week of March and patrolled with Kerry until Kerry left An Thoi on March 27, 1969. Byron York even did part of the research, except that he forgets that Kerry patrolled right up until he left at the end of March.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200408160842.asp

[noah]

I swear I remember press reports that the Kerry camp conceded the first purple heart was undeserved.

[bethl]

Why does the CNS story with Runyon use Jan 69 as the time of the incident? that certainly isn't right

[clarice]

More on One Note Kerry--even after the UN Security Council was bought off, even after all we know about the OFF scandal, even after the UN has proven useless in Darfur and its forces engaging in pedophilia throughout the world, even after international efforts to stop Iran's move to nuclear weapons, we get this from that cretin:
[quote]Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) harshly criticized the Bush administration for "disdaining diplomacy" in favor of a confrontational and unilateral foreign policy that has hurt the United States' standing around the world and made it less safe.In a speech Thursday in Los Angeles, [/quote]
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-me-kerry2jun02,1,2233200.story?coll=la-news-a_section&ctrack=1&cset=true>Ichabod Kerry

[noah]

Clarice, ("blogress Clarice Feldman") Best of the Web Today mentions your Foley e-mail.

A six figure book advance will no doubt follow!

Congrats!

[clarice]

Thanks..When that big advance comes in, I'll throw a party here..

[maryrose]

clarice:
My favorite comment that you made was about"pass the knish"with Kerry and Doug regarding his 180 record.
Nora O'Donnell at Hardball tonight is trying to equate ABU GHARIB with HADITHA and doing her usual poor job of appearing objective. She's become more shrill and MSNBC is Doom and Gloom as far as their war coverage goes. It's a depressing channel to watch.
sara: You need to chill girl: get a glass of wine and relax, it's Friday Night!
My 2 nieces are graduating tonight so I'll catch up later...

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

We can drive yet another stake through the Christmas in Cambodia story, thanks to eecee's diligence in reading incomprehension. He's been touting a pro-Kerry website that it is pretty amusing, but it did lead me to:

http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/107/1070608001a.pdf

Where we can read all about Operation Game Warden which was the predecessor to Operation Sea Lord. The 1976 report was prepared for the Office of Naval Research/Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Wash. DC

On page 36 of the report (p 39 of the pdf) we are told that on July 17, 1968 an army patrol 'inadvertently crossed the SVN/Cambodia border on the upper Mekong.'

The very next day a program was instituted for 'ensuring that all U.S./Allied shipping would be alerted as it approached the border. U.S. ships were not allowed to pass a point 4 n[autical] miles from the border, and all ships stopping at Tan Chau for customs inspection were alerted that U.S. personnel were not to cross the border. Liaison with the National Maritime Police was also establshed to prevent further inadvertent border crossings.'

Meaning that if John Kerry had somehow managed to get 50 miles north of Sa Dec on Christmas Eve 1968, he would have been turned back 4 miles short of the border. (And, from reading Kerry's own diary entry for that day he didn't leave Sa Dec until nearly dusk for his patrol, and was back in Sa Dec before midnight.)

The report continues on the next page to say: 'CTF 116 had earlier deployed PBRs to the upper Mekong and Bassac Rivers and had withdrawn them because of light contact with the enemy and the critical need for more support in the lower Delta.'

Iow, because the enemy wasn't using the upper Mekong, Kerry and friends didn't need to patrol up there. They needed to stay down near Sa Dec, because--ala Willie Sutton--that's where the action was.

Finally, the report addresses the border west of the Mekong and Bassac rivers:

'The most logical place to set up a barrier against supplies entering SVN from Cambodia would have been on the canal that ran along the border. Because of the sensitive political situation, U.S. forces were not willing to risk border incidents. The first Sea Lords barriers were established on canals 35 to 40 n. mi. from and parallel to the Cambodian border.'

'the canal that ran along the border' later became known as Bernique's Creek for the Swift Boat skipper of that name who disobeyed standing orders and went up that canal to attack Viet Cong tax collectors a few weeks before John Kerry arrived in Vietnam. Bernique acted on a tip from villagers at the port town of Ha Tien where there was a small Swift Boat base.

So, thanks to eecee, we know that Steve Gardener and John O'Neill were telling the truth, and John Kerry was lying.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Maryrose ... I know. I'm in the middle of getting my house ready for market and it is a job I'm hating. I don't want to move, don't even know where I'm going, but I can no longer afford to stay here without a job and I can't support this place on partial retirement. Plus housing costs have gone up so much in my neighborhood, it is the time to get out with some profits.

Maybe I should start a post of suggestions on where Sara should move. My daughter says, "come to Florida." My son says, "no way, stay in California." Me, I want a cabin on a lake in the mountains, but not unless I have broadband and cable TV and the two don't go together. So, instead, I hang out here and another day goes by and my closet isn't cleaned out, the garage remains a disaster area, and my dog looks at me with big sad eyes that say, "are we ever going to go to the park again, Mama?"

[David Walser]

Where should Sara move? How about Arizona? We'd love to have you. Believe it or not, we have lakes in our mountains. We've got cable TV and cable modems; most of the other modern conveniences, too. With what you could sell your home in California for, you should be able to buy something here and have enough left over for investing for your retirement.

[Cecil Turner]

His critics have alleged that the wound was minor and not incurred while engaging the enemy, and hence did not qualify for a medal.

Though not hugely excited about it, I think I disagree with each point. The severity of the wound doesn't really matter (unless it doesn't even require medical treatment). And his engaging the enemy isn't really the issue, either. If he'd shot the grenade at the enemy, and gotten a piece, it would clearly qualify. Ditto for any friendly fire aimed at the enemy.

The problem here is that:

1. the "enemy" can't be ascertained, since they don't appear to've been firing back;
2. for the same reason, the M-79 is by far the most likely culprit, so it's probably self-inflicted; and,
3. there's no way a round actually aimed at the enemy could've landed close enough to frag Kerry.

Put together, that makes it a judgment call. (And, contrary to the assertion in your original post, it's a judgment call for the commander, not the officers present.) That makes the routing of the paperwork a critical issue, and based on the IG report, there are obviously still records. And considering his later use of the 3-PH rule, it's an important point. I still think this is the prime candidate for the refusal to sign the 180.

[RLS]

I have deep sixed all of my research about Kerry since GWB won and I figured Kerry was dead in the water. But, IIRC, either Zaladonis or Runyon were as new or newer than Kerry when the mission happened. There was also a PCF that was standing by.

I thought this whole thing was debunked when Schacte came out and claimed he was on the boat with Kerry and an EM. My vote for who is lying is which one of the EM's was the FNG.

Tom, there was a ton of research done on this incident by SWVT and River Rat, as there was on Alston. I even remember going so far as to look up the service of Zaladonis....I thought he was actually stationed somewhere else when this incident occurred.

Damn, I wish Kerry would go away.

[RLS]

Cecil,

IIRC, the commander refused to sign off on the PH (I think it was the first one) and the paperwork got pushed through somehow after the CO left (?). Memory dims here.

[clarice]

Do your part then, RLS. Dig up the old stuff so Kerry will know we're ready to go when he is.

[kate]

maryrose-don't worry about MSNBC. Nora is incredibly stupid. Did they have Shuster on telling us that Rove is going to be indicted for, I don't know, ruining Val's book deal to punish Joe Wilson.

I do wish the military would do a better job putting this whole Marine allegations in perspective. I don't think the military knows how to do the PR thing yet, it's amazing to me that they are being outmanuveured by a bunch of terrorists.

[Bill]

http://www.warboats.org/skimmer.htm

[PaulV]

Has Kerry said that he used Boston whaler or skimmer on his Christmas trip tp Cambodia. He could have done portage when he lacked water

[PeterUK]

The key to all this is that piece of shrapnel,has anyone interviewed it yet,or has it signed a book deal.

[PeterUK]

"The very next day a program was instituted for 'ensuring that all U.S./Allied shipping would be alerted as it approached the border. U.S. ships were not allowed to pass a point 4 n[autical] miles from the border, and all ships stopping at Tan Chau for customs inspection were alerted that U.S. personnel were not to cross the border."

Why should this impede John Kerry? Borders are for the "little people".

[PeterUK]

The M-79 grenade launcher
Lookung at the ranges and the arming distance,looks like Kerry killed a tree.

[clarice]

PUK, Maybe he windsurfed to Cambodia.

[RLS]

This might shed some light on the First PH incident.

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17461

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
The one problem I have with any reports that came out of vietnam was its proximity to the Golden Triangle.
But windsurfing is a possibility

[Sue]

Just to clarify for myself, is it Kerry was never in Cambodia or the US was never in Cambodia?

[RLS]

This is from World Net Daily:

A previously unnoticed passage in John Kerry's approved war biography, citing his own journals, appears to contradict the senator's claim he won his first Purple Heart as a result of an injury sustained under enemy fire.

Kerry, who served as commander of a Navy swift boat, has insisted he was wounded by enemy fire Dec. 2, 1968, when he and two other men took a smaller vessel, a Boston Whaler, on a patrol north of his base at Cam Ranh Bay.

But Douglas Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," for which Kerry supplied his journals and letters, indicates that as Kerry set out on a subsequent mission, he had not yet been under enemy fire.

While the date of the four-day excursion on PCF-44 [Patrol Craft Fast] is not specified, Brinkley notes it commenced when Kerry "had just turned 25, on Dec. 11, 1968," which was nine days after the incident in which he claimed he had been wounded by enemy fire.

"They pulled away from the pier at Cat Lo with spirits high, feeling satisfied with the way things were going for them. They had no lust for battle, but they also were were not afraid. Kerry wrote in his notebook, 'A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky.'"

The diary entry apparently confirms assertions made by Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth.

The Kerry campaign's press staff has not answered WND's request for a response.

Conservative commentator and attorney Chris Horner, a defender of the swift-boats group who alerted WND to the diary entry, called it a "stunning" revelation.

"So finally, you have an eyewitness in a dear diary moment, saying, 'Dear diary, I still haven't been shot at,' confirming what the Swiftees have been saying," observed Horner, who has defended the group's claims in recent appearances on television news shows.

So Kerry, 9 days after the PH incident, says himself that he was not shot at yet.

[Rick Ballard]

"He'd have been shamed out of the unit if he had pressed the case for an award."

Which appears to be pretty close to what Kerry achieved.

[PeterUK]

"What group was Kerry a part of?"

In this case the naval word for a group of people who make a ship/boat/aircraft carrier/ferry and or including a two person pedalo is call a crew,pronounced KROO.
What happened kid was your TV repossessed when Sesame Street was on?

[Bill]

Comic relief and Off Topic:

Illusionist DAVID COPPERFIELD is planning to go one better than rival DAVID BLAINE by impregnating a woman live onstage.

http://www3.contactmusic.com/news/index43.htm

[PeterUK]

There is a solution as to how many men were in the boat,as soon as Kerry got the M-79 in his hands somebody jumped into the water.

[readingforfun]

So Kerry, 9 days after the PH incident, says himself that he was not shot at yet.

No, he said "we" hadn't been shot at yet. Meaning the new crew collectively.

Otherwise it would mean no one on the boat had ever been shot at. Do you think that's likely, RLS?

[readingforfun]

Why should this impede John Kerry?

Yes indeed, why would a Swift Boat qualify as shipping subject to customs inspection?

[RLS]

No, he said "we" hadn't been shot at yet. Meaning the new crew collectively.

Parse it however you want. What he said is what he said. Read Schacte's account and Ted Pecks account (link up above). Here is Schacte's interview with Lisa Myers:

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=44464#44464

[RLS]

And of course you remember when the Kerry campaign came out and "admitted" that the first PH was an "accidental" self injury.

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=38868#38868

God...I just hate hashing this out all over again.

[readingforfun]

Right, what he said is what he said.

'A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky.'"

So RLS, who is the us that was going up the river? Who is the we that hadn't been shot at yet?

[readingforfun]

Sorry RLS, you'll have to do better than a link to a Swiftvets BB post asking for a link to the Kerry "talking heads backtracking" on the first Purple Heart story.

No one there gave one, so why don't you?

[PeterUK]

"No, he said "we" hadn't been shot at yet. Meaning the new crew collectively."

You know this for a fact?

Why not simply say the "crew had not been shot at"?

[PeterUK]

Us /we collective nouns indicating more than one person.It includes the speaker.

[readingforfun]

Why not simply say the "crew had not been shot at"?

Why not simply say "I had not been shot at" ?

Who is the us going up the river feeling so cocky? Who is the we that hadn't been shot at yet?

Hmmmm ?

[readingforfun]

Us /we collectivenouns indicating more than one person.

Bingo.

[PeterUK]

"Yes indeed, why would a Swift Boat qualify as shipping subject to customs inspection?"

Something to do with this probably,

"The very next day a program was instituted for 'ensuring that all U.S./Allied shipping would be alerted as it approached the border. U.S. ships were not allowed to pass a point 4 n[autical] miles from the border, and all ships stopping at Tan Chau for customs inspection were alerted that U.S. personnel were not to cross the border."

This would seem fairly unambiguous,

"U.S. ships were not allowed to pass a point 4 n[autical] miles from the border"..........

"U.S. personnel were not to cross the border."

[readingforfun]

US ships were not allowed to cross the border.

[readingforfun]

Correction, US ships were not allowed to cross the point 4 naut. mi from the border.

Ships. Shipping. Commercial ships turned back. Get it?

[PeterUK]

Us /we collectivenouns indicating more than one person.

Bingo.

Posted by: readingforfun | June 02, 2006 at 05:03

Yes INCLUDING THE SPEAKER,if you want to use a collective noun excluding the speaker the words they/them are used.

One doesn't say "WE went to the movies" if the speaker did not go,it is "THEY went to the movies"
This book you are reading does it have a space for colouring?

[readingforfun]

Yes INCLUDING THE SPEAKER,if you want to use a collective noun excluding the speaker the words they/them are used.

One doesn't say "WE went to the movies" if the speaker did not go,it is "THEY went to the movies"

It includes the speaker and everybody else in the group. What group was Kerry a part of?

[Other Tom]

"There's no way a round actually aimed at the enemy could've landed close enough to frag Kerry." That's just not true. It was a common occurrence, and happened to one of my men in my presence. The notorious problem with the M-79--an otherwise absolutely beautiful weapon--was that the round armed three meters from the muzzle, and was extraordinarily sensitive once armed. The lethal radius for the round upon detonation was supposedly five meters, and you were in danger of sustaining a wound a good deal farther out than that. My impression is that it is undisputed that Kerry's round detonated on "some rocks," although I have never seen any mention of how distant those rocks were. In the case of my guy, his round hit a single leaf of a palm frond about eight or ten meters away, and he caught a couple of slivers of steel. It was a pretty painful event. I don't recall specifically, but I am almost certain that he didn't receive a purple heart. He couldn't have got one without my knowing it, and had I known it I would have been shocked. We were "engaged with the enemy" (at least we thought we were), so he might have been technically eligible. He'd have been shamed out of the unit if he had pressed the case for an award.

[PeterUK]

Readingforfun,
In your rush to display sentience,you have neglected to read this rather important qualifier,

"U.S. personnel were not to cross the border."

Personnel is not another word for a kind of floating vessel,it is usually reserved for people.

[readingforfun]

Except everybody but Schachte says no M-79 was fired that night. And he doesn't have a single witness that even places him on the boat.

[RLS]

Sorry about the wrong link. Garrett was reporting on Fox from the Kerry Campaign:

GARRETT: And questions keep coming. For example, Kerry received a Purple Heart for wounds suffered on December 2nd, 1968. But an entry in Kerry's own journal written nine days later, he writes that, quote, he and his crew hadn't been shot at yet, unquote. Kerry's campaign has said it is possible his first Purple Heart was awarded for an unintentionally self-inflicted wound.
Score another one for the Swiftvets, and another retreat for Kerry, this time on a key contention for both a medal (which some, including me, felt were too difficult to argue effectively) and for his truncated tour of duty. Without that first Purple Heart, Kerry would have had to stay on the Swiftboat assignment past March 17th and remain in combat. Now that the Kerry campaign seems to have retreated from Kerry's citation, the fact that Kerry pushed this award weeks later up a different chain of command takes on a great deal more significance. Instead of bravely taking on combat, he now looks desperate to get out ahead of everyone else and willing to falsify records to do it -- which is exactly the impression that his later assertions have given us.

[readingforfun]

"Personnel" refers to people who were on ships going through customs inspection, or did you neglect to read the sentence in your rush to display sentience?

and all ships stopping at Tan Chau for customs inspection were alerted that U.S. personnel were not to cross the border."

[David Walser]

Sorry, readingforfun, but your reading of Kerry's statement just does not make linguistic sense. I know you are trying to say that the pronouns "us" and "we" refer to the "crew" as opposed to the individuals making up the crew. So, on that reading, even though Kerry (and other members of his crew) HAD been shot at, the "crew" had not because the crew -- this particular group of men -- had just been formed.

That reading works for the the first part of the statement, but not for the last: "A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied [the crew] up the Long Tau shipping channel because [the crew] hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky." So, a newly formed crew made up of seasoned combat veterans would be cocky because, as a new crew, it had never been shot at yet? Kerry's musing that their cockiness was "allowed" only makes sense if the individual members of the crew had not been shot at. I will grant you that Kerry may have been sloppy in his wording. Maybe he did not mean ALL of them were cocky -- just the ones who had not been shot at. Which would mean that (if you accept Kerry's version of the 1st PH) Kerry was NOT cocky, but most of the rest of the crew was cocky. However, that reading defies what seems to be the sentiment that Kerry was trying to express: There was a general feeling of self-assurance. They were ALL naive and were about to have a rude awakening. The quoted section from Kerry's journal just does not read like a wiser and older skipper commenting on the folly of his youthful subordinates.

[readingforfun]

RLS, thanks for the correct info. But Kerry has always said he didn't know where the shrapnel came from. And self-inflicted wounds during the heat of battle qualify for an award. So do friendly fire wounds, and this could have been either even if there was no enemy fire, which isn't a given.

[readingforfun]

The quoted section from Kerry's journal just does not read like a wiser and older skipper commenting on the folly of his youthful subordinates.

No, it reads like a comment about a group that hadn't been ambushed yet.

[PeterUK]

"What group was Kerry a part of?"

In this case the naval word for a group of people who make a ship/boat/aircraft carrier/ferry and or including a two person pedalo is call a crew,pronounced KROO.
What happened kid was your TV repossessed when Sesame Street was on?

[readingforfun]

In this case the naval word for a group of people who make a ship/boat/aircraft carrier/ferry and or including a two person pedalo is call a crew,pronounced KROO.

So now is the light bulb starting to come on?

[David Walser]

Readingforfun(butnotcomprehension): "The quoted section from Kerry's journal just does not read like a wiser and older skipper commenting on the folly of his youthful subordinates.

No, it reads like a comment about a group that hadn't been ambushed yet."

Again, this makes no sense. If a newly formed group is made up of men who have been ambushed, does the fact they are part of a new group suddenly make them cocky? Does each man suddenly think, "On that last boat we were ambushed frequently. But, this crew will be different. I'm justified in being cocky because this particular group of men has never been shot at."?

[RLS]

And self-inflicted wounds during the heat of battle qualify for an award.

Read Schacte's interview and Ted Peck's e-mail that I linked. There was no hostile fire. There was no after action report written up because there was no "action".

Peck: http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17461

Schacte: http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=44464#44464

[readingforfun]

Again, this makes no sense. If a newly formed group is made up of men who have been ambushed, does the fact they are part of a new group suddenly make them cocky? Does each man suddenly think, "On that last boat we were ambushed frequently. But, this crew will be different. I'm justified in being cocky because this particular group of men has never been shot at."?

Do you think we're analyzing Shakespeare here? We're analyzing an EXCERPT from a 25 year old's diary. The fact is, no matter how you want to parse it, that he wrote about a GROUP going up a river feeling pretty cocky, because the GROUP had not been shot at yet.

The only other way to read it is to say that not a single guy in the GROUP had been shot at yet. You figure that one out.

[readingforfun]

There isn't a single person who puts Schachte at the scene, no even the skipper of the Swift boat that took them out.

Tedd Peck comes up with different dates all the way around.

Who ya gonna believe?

[Rick Ballard]

"Not Kerry" is the right answer.

[David Walser]

Readingforfun: "The only other way to read it is to say that not a single guy in the GROUP had been shot at yet. You figure that one out."

Uh, isn't that the point? The only reading that makes sense is that none of the crew had been shot at yet. However, the truth is more likely that the writer had not been shot at yet and he is projecting his feelings onto the others. Kerry, "safe" inside the cabin, may have had very little insight into the thoughts and feelings of his gunner. The guys who had been shot at, if any, were unlikely to confide in their new skipper that they were scared.

[RLS]

There isn't a single person who puts Schachte at the scene, no even the skipper of the Swift boat that took them out.

You got a cite for that? If you really want to know who I would beleive, it would be the man who invented the operation, who always was in the boat during these operations, whose call sign Kerry remembered 20 yrs later (the only time used w/ Kerry in that op), the man who is backed up by the Skipper (Hibbard) another officer Peck, another officer Brown. AND as a vet who served in Nam the same time as Kerry (68-69), I believe Schacte when he says that NO officer in training would ever be allowed to command such a mission, let alone with an EM who was newer than Kerry.

Kerry would have you believe that 2 weeks in country, he was given command of a "volunteer" mission with another sailor (EM) that had never been on a mission and was newer than Kerry. That would mean that the Navy sent two new guys who had never had contact on a "bait and sweep" mission with the only experienced sailor another EM.

BULLSHIT!!

[PeterUK]

"So now is the light bulb starting to come on?"

No it came on ages ago, you are illiterate.
Officers don't use WE when talking about themselves and enlisted men,they say the crew or the ships company or the men have not seen action.

This book,have you taken it out of the library yet?

[eecee]

However, the truth is more likely that the writer had not been shot at yet and he is projecting his feelings onto the others.

Oh that's rich. No gymnastics involved in that one, lol.

[kim]

Hey rrf, let's see more of that diary of Kerry's. More pix, too. We want data. Has Kerry signed the 180? Has he sent it in? Has he released his military record to the public?

Why not, smart guy?
============

[PeterUK]

Well you AB,Katrina are certainly not Shakespeare,he was born in 1564

1592-93. Shakespeare is thought to have written the poem Venus and Adonis and the plays Richard III and The Two Gentlemen of Verona.

1592-94. The Comedy of Errors written in this time.
He was 28..lets face it AB you were stil finger painting at that age.

BTW,The word is CREW,not group,what do you think they were the John Kerry Experience?

[kim]

Hey, eecee, please explicate Kerry's comment that the people he was firing at were 'fleeing like gazelles'.

Except for the giraffes returning fire.

Does his diary mention giraffes? Any pictures of giraffes?
===============================

[eecee]

PatrickSullivan wrote:

He's been touting a pro-Kerry website that it is pretty amusing

Pop my head in and what do I see...I've become a "he." Actually, I'm a she.

Be sure to let Tom Maguire know how amusing you find that website. He called it "well-researched" and edited one of his other threads to include it.

[kim]

Maybe he hit a hippopotamus, and that drove his boat against the canal bank.
=============================

[kim]

Elephants have looooooong trunks and loooooooooooonger memories. So do Swifties.
=================

[kim]

Peanuts from the gallery don't seem to affect you. How about a little mud?
==================================

[kim]

War Hero, Anti-War Hero. It's the Circle of Lies.
============================

[kim]

Hey, the whole BIOSPHERE detests your evil master.
==================================

[PeterUK]

Kim,
I think you are thinking of the "Kerry On" movies,
"Kerry on up the Mekong" and "Kerry on Cambodia" a Comedy of Errors indeed.

[eecee]

AND as a vet who served in Nam the same time as Kerry (68-69), I believe Schacte when he says that NO officer in training would ever be allowed to command such a mission, let alone with an EM who was newer than Kerry.

Kerry would have you believe that 2 weeks in country, he was given command of a "volunteer" mission with another sailor (EM) that had never been on a mission and was newer than Kerry. That would mean that the Navy sent two new guys who had never had contact on a "bait and sweep" mission with the only experienced sailor another EM.

Sorry, couldn't resist popping in on this one too.

No officer in training like training would be sent out on a skimmer, huh? Yet he was given command of a Swift boat and sent into a combat area just 3 days later. He must've gaine a WHOLE lot of experience in between.

Which one of those two sailors was "newer" than Kerry, please? I see the Coastal Squadron One Swift Boat Crew Directory shows Zaladonis and Runyon both starting service in the squadron 10/68, a whole month before Kerry showed up.

Swiftboats

[kim]

Hey, eecee, show us what his military records say about the first Purple Heart incident.
=====================

[PeterUK]

"That would mean that the Navy sent two new guys who had never had contact on a "bait and sweep" mission with the only experienced sailor another EM."

No eecee,he is not talking about the fact it is a skimmer,it was the "bait and sweep" mission .

[Specter]

Well...I'll say again that anybody who is getting upset that this whole series of sorry episodes is being rehashed to the detriment of Kerry should write to him directly. It is all his fault. He started it originally - got trashed - and brought it up again. More of the Democratic brain-trust.

[Cecil Turner]

The lethal radius for the round upon detonation was supposedly five meters, and you were in danger of sustaining a wound a good deal farther out than that.

Quibble: five meters isn't a "lethal radius," it's the "effective casualty radius" (defined as the distance within which at least 50% of exposed personnel become casualties). I also like M-79's (and follow-on M203), but it's a relatively dinky warhead. By comparison, a hand grenade's ECR is 15 meters. And we're talking about a perfectly clear (overwater) line-of-sight. I maintain it's vanishingly unlikely this particular round was aimed at anyone, let alone the enemy.

He'd have been shamed out of the unit if he had pressed the case for an award.

Exactly, and it was my impression that was the Swifties' main point for bringing it up.

[Doug Reese]

"So Kerry, 9 days after the PH incident, says himself that he was not shot at yet."

No, that isn't what he said.

I would suggest you read the actual passage, and not WorldNetDailey's take on it.

He was referring to his crew, "we" had not been fired on yet. That's my take . . look it up.

Doug Reese

[Doug Reese]

"The notorious problem with the M-79--an otherwise absolutely beautiful weapon--was that the round armed three meters from the muzzle, . . "

My recollection is 30 feet, Other Tom. For what it's worth . . . let's look it up and see which one of us has the bad memory.

Then again, let's not :)

Doug Reese

[Sue]

I heard that argument before. The collective we. I don't buy it.

[Rick Ballard]

Sue,

Come now - here is a very famous example of precisely the type of language use that Kerry was attempting to copy. Read it and see if it doesn't change your opinion. It will explain exactly what was going through Lt. Kerry's mind when he picked up his pen - and provide the reason why his complete "War Diaries" covering his memorable four months remain unpublished.

[Cecil Turner]

He was referring to his crew, "we" had not been fired on yet. That's my take . . look it up.

So even though they've all been shot at before, they're cocky because they haven't been shot at as a group? Does that reading really make sense to you?

[readingforfun]

The only reading that makes sense is that none of the crew had been shot at yet. However, the truth is more likely that the writer had not been shot at yet and he is projecting his feelings onto the others. Kerry, "safe" inside the cabin, may have had very little insight into the thoughts and feelings of his gunner. The guys who had been shot at, if any, were unlikely to confide in their new skipper that they were scared.

Occam's Razor

[Sue]

Rick,

::grin:: I love that.

[Cecil Turner]

Occam's Razor. [entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity]

Hey, I'm a big believer in parsimony. But your theory doesn't take the necessity of explaining the crew's cockiness into account. So it fails ol' Bill's test.

[readingforfun]

It's simple. Kerry said "we" not "I."

[itsme]

Read Schacte's interview and Ted Peck's e-mail that I linked.

You mean the Ted Peck who was under indictment for tax fraud while he was a Swiftvet spokesman? That Ted Peck?

US Attorney

Ever find out if he got the charges dropped?

[MayBee]

So every time a new guy comes on board, they get cocky all over again?
Is Kerry a superstitious man? Perhaps believing he got shot at days before because someone else was on the boat that time?
Hmm....

[readingforfun]

However, the truth is more likely that the writer had not been shot at yet and he is projecting his feelings onto the others.

Oh that's rich. No gymnastics involved in that one, lol.

LOL indeed, eecee!

[MayBee]

Oh that's rich. No gymnastics involved in that one, lol

Nadia, meet MaryLou. Mary Lou, this is Nadia.