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July 08, 2006



Hnmm...it's interesting how the various new media spin this story. We were initially told by new outlets, led by ABC, that there was a massive cover-up of this masacre. Now it appears that there were mistakes made in the investigative process.

The New York Times concludes its editorial er, reporting by placing the military investigators and "townspeople" on the same side of the "facts" by citing a leaked and early account of the investigation. See, the Marines and their lawyers are liars.

This is clearly the New York Times pressuring the Corps to level the most damning charges so that they can have their massacre story.

Finally, the New York Times gets tough on crime. Perhaps they'll be as strict on their treasonous editors and reporters.

The UPI actually had it right in their headline: No cover-up in Haditha investigation.


I actually sense a change in direction for the New York Times on two fronts:

They take a leadership role in trying to debunk the defense's story before charges are even filed. The are definitely of the opinion that the Marines and their lawyers are lying. Does anyone recall a time when the Times showed such aggressive behavior against defendents?

Also, their concern regarding civilian casualites: civilians are killed daily in Iraq mostly by the terrorists. Also, hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed by Saddam. We will need to see how the reporting of the 24 compares to the reporting of thousands of civilian murders.

They will have their masacre story, darn it. It's the Vietnam template. In every story that AP reports it has a sentence that these stories decrease support for the war. Every story.


I'd be interested to know what the source was for those original investigative reports? I suspect the statements of the anti-American Baathist Doctor, the "budding journalist", etc...in other words interested parties with an agenda.
Since the bodies were buried before the investigators showed up and the families are refusing to allow exhumation and autopsies, I do not see how that preliminary investigative notes can mean much.


It is interesting to review the mindset both before and after facts emerge. Below is a 'sample' from the link (above) to Maguire's post of June 12. Will there be any modification to the POV?

Naw, that would be supplying aid and comfort to the enemy.

"Like so many on the left, Merritt's first instinct was to imagine a way that an (entirely unsubstantiated) accusation could be true. The fact that her proposed scenario relied on an unbelievably superficial stereotype of guys in combat just added insult to injury.

If our troops are not stretched to the breaking point, then the left's vision of incompetant leadership and of what's actually happening in Iraq is badly wrong. If, however, our troops are as universally stressed and as badly led as claimed, then evidence of that degradation will obviously have to show up somewhere -- thus, the left is ideologically compelled to believe the worst when murky stories like that of Haditha surface "regardless of what fact-finding reveals," as you yourself so accurately put it. Otherwise, they might have to admit they've wasted years pounding away at the same meagre collection of miserably mistaken talking points.

Frankly I don't see anyone in a leadership position on the left with the courage to challenge the very orthodoxy that folks like Merritt represent and that ultimately proves more disastrous to troop morale than stop loss orders or anything else. There's a reason that "but, we support the troops!" has become the sad tagline of cynical jokes both at home and on the ground in Iraq. Men like Murtha can swear they do, but the troops who need to believe it most, just don't."


clarice-my sense is that the military is caving on this case. When interviewed re Iraqi complaints regarding the rape/murder case and their desire for jurisdiction, the US military spokesman said that US/Iraqi cooperation is good in cases of allegations of US military crimes.

The spokesman specifically cited that the head of the Iraqi Human Rights Office was providing evidence to the US investigators in the Haditha case.

Sounds to me like the military investigators are desperate to strengthen the case against the Marines.

Part of the My Lai story, if I recall correctly, was a cover-up. The media has been denied that element though they will not be denied their masacre story.


About the troops and morale - I don't believe they worry that much about what we think. Read some milbogs.

a couple of samples:

"I'm Josh Spano, 20 years old. I am here for the simple reason that ***someone has to do what we are doing.*** Read what I have to say and you will understand more about me. "

http://siliddar.livejournal.com/7072.html - his thoughts on "support the troops"

http://americancitizensoldier.blogspot.com/ he quotes Winston Churchill: "Nothing is more dangerous in wartime than to live in the temperamental atmosphere of a Gallup poll, always feeling one’s pulse and taking one’s temperature."


They are realistic, optimistic, and totally focused on doing their jobs.


This entire thing stinks of a set-up, either as a shakedown for blood money or as part of AQI's media war against America troops. How anyone in the chain of command can accept autopsy reports from a suspect Doctor escapes me! Until the bodies are exhumed and an impartial autopsy is conducted, there is no case worthy of mention.


"senior officers failed to follow up on inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the initial reporting of the incident that should have raised questions."

Does anyone really expect that in an event where the primary interest of those involved was to stay alive, that there would not be "inaccuracies and inconsistencies"?

I see nothing disputing the accounts of the Marines who have made public statements, or affirming the charges that the media, particularly the N.Y Times were salivating over.

They wanted a massacre, but will have to settle for a slightly mis-managed investigation.


Until proven otherwise, I will place my support and faith with the marines involved. They deserve much more than that.

Even though I'm not one of them...I hope they don't mind if I borrow their slogan...

Semper fidelis.

 Carol Herman

Uh-huh. Like it's not advantageous to the goons to come in and use guns on their own, like they use cars stuffed with bombs. While Americans pay out $2500 per corpse to the survivors. It's as if we sent in estate lawyers to help us out in Iraq.

WHile our fighting men are given ridiculous orders. In other words they can only shoot when they take a direct hit. And, because the NY Times published the weak spots in their armor, they have to turn full-frontal at gunfire; not to fall to a hit that comes in at one of the weak points. Since the enemy is free to shoot.

Now that I've read the report from the "second in command," I wonder if he's like Wesley Clark; getting his extra bars and stripes on Clinton's watch. I'm sure that stupid broad (who probably spent time between Hillary's knees), Karpinsky ... got promoted on Clinton's watch ... And, it had nothing to do with talent.

So, that's it. The 2nd in Command of the Marines, until I know better, is probably a Clintonista buttkissah. Happy among the flying Pentagon chairbornes.

As to our hapless military men in Iraq, I've seen better leadership skills in Vietnam. (Just in case you think we lost in Vietnam because of poor military maneuvers ... That's just not true. We lost because the journalists put the fear of God into Godless men. Go figa.

But we're not on that road, anymore. It's in the same place the sun don't shine, if you want to grab it out, now, and look.

Carol Herman

Well,Kate, since you'r hot for the Calley story about Mai Lai (should be better known as the journalist's "my lie") you'd find that the villagers in Nam weren't innocent.

Except they were "innocent" in a way that today makes them look like total fools. They bought into being brothers and allies of the Chinese. And, now the HA-HA-HA is on them. I wouldn't be surprised that today's Vietnamese yoots (not lucky enough to make it off the boats to America), ROLL THEIR EYEBALLS at gramps and his stories of valor. As they squat in 7th Century lives. And, the Chinese share nothing of their industrious engine with them.

Sure, Americans came home and had names for these people. I'd bet today's youthful Vietnamese do, too. I'm sure gramps doesn't even have to turn his back to hear the word PUKE called out loud! Because those bastards came "this close" to the benefits everyone who resides on lands lapping the Pacific know to be true: JAPAN!

Where would you rather live? With the ghosts of happy talk at killing American soldiers? Or today's Japanese, who put democracy first? And, the nation rose to first class status?

Heck, where can you buy and drive an automobile? And, exactly what would you bring home from Nam, today, if you visited? I do hear they miss having tourists, ya know? And, they're all still stuck with the journalists' MY LIE. Nah. I don't give a hoot.

Not only Mai Lai, by the way, but FRAGGING, also occurred in Nam. And, I can still remember Mort Sahl, coming out on stage (probably on Ed Sullivan's show), with the famous newspaper under his arm. And, he said: "Today's headline reports that there's TOO MUCH fragging going on in Vietnam. So, I'd like to know the cut off number. Between "acceptable frags." And, one too many.

Back in those days the soldiers couldn't get the brass to listen.

Back in those days, I remember soldiers coming back and complaining all they got for their rifle were 5 BULLETS! The officers really did fear taking the boys out on patrol.

Not a way to fight a war!

And, even though Nixon cancelled the draft, he never did get credit for the good works he did while president.

Still, it's just no longer true.

Lincoln's admonition kicked in. Too many Americans, now, refuse to be fooled.


I think you have to distinguish between the rape case and the Haditha case. The former seems more certainly within the framework of a straightforward criminal case.

The Haditha case, I predict, may never go to an Article 32 , but if it does, I do not see how the charges can be proven in the absence of autopsies.

Other Tom

Concerning the rape case, consider that in three years about 930,000 troops have served in Iraq. How many rapes are committed in three years by a random sample of 930,000 American young men living right here at home?

One thing should be clear to the electorate: the MSM and the Democratic Party seem exquisitely, almost indecently, concerned to police the activities of our own people, and the discuss them in a most prejudicial, repetitive and harmful way. Nothing can be done about the MSM, but we do have our remedies where the Democrats are concerned.


I would agree except for the political nature of the investigation.

I predict the military will file murder charges and that the Marines will fare much better at trial. (Yes, New York Times, the Marines get to put on a defense!)

This will be the worst of both worlds for the military. They think this will demonstrate how seriously they take these kinds of accusations by charging the Marines, when in fact, the subsequent acquittals or convictions on much reduced charges will lead to weeks of media handwringing about the military investigating itself, whining from Iraqi officals and worldwide condemnation.

Reminds me of a case in South Korea where two soldiers accidently killed 2 girls in a training accident. A joint US-SK investigation proved it was an accident. However, our enlighted military leadership, decided to court martial the soldiers to show how serious they are and all it did was make matters worse - the soldiers were acquitted of course. But the street demonstrations went on and on. I wonder about our military leadership.

Rick Ballard

Other Tom,

I would use the comparative of one year in a city of 1.86M. Houston is the closest to that size at 2.01M and they had 908 rapes and 272 homicides last year.


But I thought just the other day Momma Moonbat Shehan said that all our troops were raping and killing the innocent women and children of Iraq.


Kate, do not mistake diplospeak for actuality. And So. Korea is not Iraq. As best I can tell the charges in Haditha are based on claims by a local shyster, some Baathist frontmen and a gone native reporter. (Even Human Rights Watch has bailed.)
In the rape case, the reports indicate the witnesses are fellor soldiers to whom those involved confessed.

Big difference.



M. Simon

Mama Shehan accused her son of rape?

Why am I not surprised.

She sure is doing a good job of upholding her son's memory.


clarice-I agree about Haditha. However, the media wants its massacre story and the beast must be fed. I hope I'm wrong on this one.

Bob: actually the horrible Sheehan announced to the world that her son was a virgin. He wanted to wait until he was married. Nothing like spreading personal information about one's own son.

Actually, I think we need to ignore Mother Sheehan. She is in reality a pathetic person who will do anything for attention.


22 Apr 1971 - Speech in front of the Senate
Committee on Foreign Relations by John Kerry:
¨¨They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.¨¨¨
That speech and some protest marches,
effective ended the Vietnam War
and cost the lives of millions of Vietnamese, that had believed that America
was there to help them. American soldiers
were defeated by Americans back home.
Fast forward to Iraq, American soldiers
again doing the job they were told to do-Win the war.
So the enemy goes back to what worked in Vietnam. Except they improved, instead of just stories; pictures (of something)
Bodies (autopsies even -performed by )
Witnesses (stories seem to change as needed)
Much more reliable than the rabble that
assembled for the so called ¨´Winter Soldier
Investigation´´´? My guess is No.
Will it work again?


One would be wise not to be dismissive of the PFC Green, et al, incident (Mahmudiyah). There are no obvious mitigating circumstances in that one. As near as I can tell, it's atrocity, pure and simple.


Fraggings do occur and it has been mostly for reasons not related to improper logistics, i.e. 5 bullets in VN, or other 'it would be good for the war effort but you are frustrating it' reasons but rather for reasons of personal pique in a setting where, you know, killing someone might seem to be a solution to conflict. I admire General Chiarelli and the chain of command for trying to maintain discipline. Anybody who is going to be dissuaded from supporting the war where command discipline is really the central issue wasn't going to support it anyway.


Americans who care know that this enemy wilfully mass-murders civilians, doesn't give a damn about the Geneva Convention, tortures children, rapes women, wears no uniform, shoots at US and Iraqi Soldiers from inside hospitals, from behind children, terrorizes communities, beheads those who come in peace.


To the New York Times, WP, LA TIMES, John Podesta, Open Soros, HRW, VIP, CAP, MZM, Joe Wilson, Ramsey Clark, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Dick Durbin, Ray McGovern, Daniel Ellsberg, Jack Murtha, John Kerry, to all but 9 US Senators and to the 5 USSC Justices who sided with GITMO detainees over US Soldiers and America, who usurped authority legitimately belonging to the Commander in Chief during wartime, to Time-Warner, Hollywood, PEW, ACLU, Ford Foundation, UN, EU, to any free man or woman working to weaken the US Military, to undermine America's authority on the world stage, to destroy America's CinC, to sell out America and your braver neighbors to America's enemies, to embolden radical jihadists around the globe who now know who can be bought, who's willing to betray America...

As Emporer Darth Misha I proclaimed in the silence following the inhumane torture and slaughter of two US Soldiers by animals who aren't fit to sit in their shadows:


"If you think that war is a popularity contest, kindly get your worthless ass off my planet."



Rott has long been the master of subtlety.


It appears in the rape case that US investigators are also having difficulty getting the accusers to agree to exhume and autopsy the body.


Clarice -

You belittle the alleged atrocity by calling it a "rape case". It's a rape and quadruple murder case, including the murder of a child of 5 or so. Apparently premeditated for about a week. The alleged ringleader has reportedly been discharged for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Two of his platoon-mates have reportedly confessed. There have already been several official apologies offered to the Iraqi leaders. Yes, this kind of sh*t is rare, but it is an ugly, ugly affair. And I'm afraid I believe our guys did it.


Haditha will be resolved in good time. No one is believing the hyped massacre story so I don't think you have to worry Kate. Is this hype by NYT going to change the way we fight the WOT? I don't think so. We will continue to ferret out these jihadists and punish them accordingly.
Carol; your recent post is a bridge too far for me.


One more comment on the Mahmudiyah incident.

It seems to me that something was seriously amiss with the leadership of that platoon, if not the entire company. This is the same leadership that allowed an unescorted HumVee to be taken out and its three occupants killed ... two of them murdered, apparently complete with torture and dismemberment. Perhaps (perhaps) in an act of Sunni "vigilante justice".


I'm not dismissing the severity of the charges in the rape case, I was just noting that there seem to be evidentiary problems in that one as well.


Fair enough. It may not come through, but I am very angry about this incident. I have my reasons.

Thomas Esmond Knox

Maryrose, I agree.


ghostcat: I think the military should handle these cases and they are horrible and should be dealt with firmly.

What I get annoyed about is the reporting of the media. These incidents should be reported but they are not the biggest thing going on in Iraq right now. On a list of 20, I'd put it about 22. There is no ocver-up, the military is tightening controls and the culprits will be punished.

The Iraqi reporting is becoming Natalee Hollowayised. The media will hype these stories and miss the big picture. The CNN guy reporting the "breaking news" that 4 GIs were charged in this case-yeah, that was unexpected--was so excited he was breathless.

That's my complaint.


maryrose-way OT, but I haven't seen any postings from Kim in awhile.

Carol Herman

The media doesn't change its stripes. It defends palistinian attrocities with the same vigor it defends the indefensible behaviors of the enemies of democracy in Iraq.

And, there's no way any marines are gonna see a fair trial; since the media is purposely designing the same traps its uses against Israelis.

I'd also put money on the involvement of the media in creating what it is hoping works better than the screaming they did at the Jenin "massacre." Where the only thing massacred was the TRUTH.

As to our leadership in Iraq, alas, it's just a revolving door. Here, I don't know why. But a lot of our own incompetents, it seems, have been part of the reason no particular "war plan" reaches successful conclusions.

As to the arabs, they don't change.

What will Iraq look like years from now? It won't be thriving and vibrant. But it may also hold some keys of its own. Since it's possible the mullahs don't reach the infrastructure as they have in other despotic areas; like Iran. Hopeless future. Syria. Hopeless future. And, I can throw in the Ukraine. Hopeless for them, too.

What we're probably learning how to do is "sit on the garbage can."

That particular line comes out of a book I read all the way back in the 1950's. About New York's rotting school system. (Which hasn't changed much, over time, either.) It was called the Blackboard Jungle.

And, one of the teachers, who needed his paycheck, said going into those violent classrooms was just like "sitting on top of the garbage can." In other words you did what you could to keep the garbage inside. Instead of it erupting out, and covering the floors and walls.

When will things get better? Probably never. But IF we had a press that held a candle up to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ... just the way most "middle" Americans think ... You'd see some improvements.

Maybe, we should just demand that if we put in diplomats into positions where they can direct traffic, at least we don't supply them with pants like Sandy Ber(g)ler wears; ... Pants where they can stuff in a lot more cash than they'd earn strictly by paycheck.

Some day ahead, some scientist is gonna earn a Nobel Prize by showing that you can't change genetic material around all that much. And, if you start with the seed of a lemon tree; you end up ahead with lots of lemons.

Wouldn't be the first war, by the way, ill served by presstitutes. NO WAR EVER REALLY GOT COVERED ALL THAT WELL! Instead, Western Civilization depended on literature; myths and legends, combined. That spoke to the generations that followed.

If you think the MSM will track that far ahead, have I got news for you!



I'm usually amused by irony and the Iron(ic) Law of Unintended Consequences, but this is one of those cases where I have to take the frustrating with the amusing. Because the Army did the right thing ... kicking Green out for psychiatric reasons ... he will be tried in civilian court and that discharge will be used in his defense. I'd much rather he face military justice. On the other hand, something tells me that a Western KY jury, drawn from the environs of Ft. Campbell, will deal with him almost as harshly. It's not nice to embarrass the 101st Airborne.


I think Green's mental illness is a big factor here. I don't see prison for him. He will probably be institutionalized.
Kate: just saw your question about Kim and Sue answered that she's giving Scary Larry a run for his money. I hope kim comes back soon along with Larwyn who has a broken computer.

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