More Civil Suits? (Swift Boat Edition)

Both sides seem to be merely at the bluster and posturing stage right now bit there is a *SLIGHT* possibility that a libel suit against John Kerry's "Patriot Project" could be in the offing.  As background, Kerry's "Patriot Project" was described by the Times as his belated response to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth; my mockery of the Times coverage is here.

Here is a post from Bruce Kesler *hinting* at a possible cause of action:

A very experienced attorney with deep knowledge of the details tells me that the defend John Kerry organization, Patriot Project, may be approaching “actionable libel” by implying Admiral Roy Hoffman and possibly Admiral Bud Schacte of $100,000 payoffs from the Swiftees for their speaking out against John Kerry’s exaggerations and fabrications of his Vietnam service.

Mr. Kesler excerpts the post in question, giving us this:

James Boyce writes at the Huffington Post, “How Much Is That Admiral In The Window?”

This past February 6, 2006, the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth made a $100,000 payment to Admiral Roy Hoffman one of the key defamers of John Kerry….
With money like this being paid to anyone who is willing to follow orders and lie on cue, is it any wonder that this past May another Admiral who was involved in the Swift Boat lies, Admiral Bud Schachte of Charleston, South Carolina, a man who claimed he was dragged into the Swift Boat mess against his wishes, came out and did a newspaper article ready to "re-engage John Kerry" in the Swift Boat debate.
After all, with his fellow Admiral clearing a solid six figures a year on top of his Naval pension, Bud Schachte certainly wasn't going to let opportunity, or should I say $100,000, pass him by.

James Boyce tries to change the subject by claiming that the "very experienced attorney with deep knowledge of the details" is John O'Neill.  He's wrong, bit so what?  The more compelling rebuttal comes from Mr. Kesler, who explains the $100,000 payment to Admiral Hoffman as follows:

In fact, there was a $10,000 and a $100,000 payment from the Swiftees not to Admiral Hoffman but, as shown on the reports Boyce claims to have examined, to the Admiral Hoffman Foundation that were loans that were repaid from Unfit For Command royalties, which were donated to the Foundation to the tune of over $1.3 million (with admin and reporting costs of about $40,000) that went to grants to the families of badly wounded military servicepeople.

Hmm, payments to the Admiral Roy Hoffman Foundation?  That is not quite what Boyce reported the first time, when he told us that:

This past February 6, 2006, the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth made a $100,000 payment to Admiral Roy Hoffman one of the key defamers of John Kerry.

Mr. Boyce has a non-response here which slides right past the fact that the original report made no mention of a payment to the Admiral's foundation, and which included the absurd speculation about Admiral Schachte's willingness to take $100,00.  As Mr. Boyce himself noted, the Swift Boat records are publicly available - does he see a payment to Admiral Schachte or not?  Or would he care to allege tax fraud and misreporting by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth?

Look, Boyce is a say-anything hack.  But exposing his hackery (as the Times did not) is well worth doing.

So let's throw it out to the legal eagles - does Hoffmann have a cause of action? Does Schachte?  Let's grant that Hoffman is a public figure; as to Schachte, is he or isn't he?

MORE:  I am having a devil of a time getting info on the "Admiral Roy F. Hoffmann Foundation", but they are certainly described here as a charitable organization, and they show up on the IRS listing as the "Admiral Roy Hoffman Foundation" (drop the middle initial and the second "n" in Hoffmann - your tax dollars at work).

Comments

[cathyf]

Well, as our buddies Joe and Val have shown us, anything is actionable. But things to consider:

1) The swifties are a large group. Just by statistics, there are going to be some unsavory characters in there. Filing a lawsuit gives the defendents a fishing license to go find the swiftie who cheated on his wife, embezzled from his business, whatever. Then the compliant MSM will be happy to tar the whole group with that.

2) The deep pockets will ride in to the rescue and fund the defendents.

3) All the money spent on lawyers will NOT be spent on "grants to the families of badly wounded military servicepeople."

4) On the other hand, Kerry has pretty deep pockets, so winning would be renumerative for the foundation and its beneficiaries.

cathy :-)

[Other Tom]

My perspective is based on a year in the River Patrol Force (the PBR's) in the delta, Sept. '67-Sept. '68, and twenty years of doing hardball litigation in L.A. and around the country (no particular expertise in defamaion). I was a very vocal supporter of, and contributor to, the SwiftVets, and I believe Adm. Hoffman and Adm. Schachte implicitly. I have posted ad nauseum on the utter fraudulence of two of Kerry's purple hearts, on his Cambodia claims, and on his very questionable behavior in the instance that resulted in his getting a Brone Star. Don't get me started.

Having said all that, I wouldn't litigate this thing. Granted it would be great to get Kerry under oath, just as it would Joe Wilson, but at the end of the day some lawyers will be much better off and no one else will be very satisfied.

[Sue]

but at the end of the day some lawyers will be much better off and no one else will be very satisfied.

True.

[R C Dean]

Well, the basis for a public figure winning a libel suit is falsity or recklessness. Sounds like a winner to me.

But at this point, what's the point?

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Almost anything is actionable, my lawyer tells me, but establishing a dollar value on harm would be difficult.

[richard mcenroe]

"No man ever had a brush with the law but that he suffered greatly in his spirit and his purse." — Patrick O'Brian

I'd say don't sue yet. This is John Kerry. He can never tell enough of a lie to satisfy himself. Left alone, he is sure to escalate his comments to something utterly undefensible. Call it the Frisch effect.

Then nail him. Ideally, right at the start of the Democratic primaries.

[SteveMG]

Well, the basis for a public figure winning a libel suit is falsity or recklessness.

I think you mean falsity and recklessness.

As I understand it (Sullivan v you-know-who) a public figure has to prove both. I.e., that the charges were false (and defamatory) and also that the individual acted with malice. Malice being the person knew the charges were untrue or they acted with reckless disregard for the truth.

As we know, an almost impossibly high standard.

[Barney Frank]

My non legal eagle knowledge is limited to CA non public figure stuff.
Calling someone a liar is what's called slander or libel per se, or 'on its face'. Alleging someone was paid to lie would ordinarily be considered defamatory as well. The burden of proof is on the accuser to prove that his statements are true, as the truth is an affirmitive defense against defamation.
The problem for public figures is the malice part. If there is a history of demonstrably false statements over a period of time then it becomes much easier to prove that the intent is to harm and not just recklessness or negligence. Whether that history exists in this case I don't know. If a history of attempted harm can be demonstrated then it makes the damages hurdle Sue spoke of easier to clear. Actual damages may be modest but puitive damages can get quite large if a jury wishes to dissuade a serial harrasser.

The other question is whether the Patriot Project carries liability insurance. If so, and the Patriot Project sought coverage, that would change the dynamics for both parties considerably.

[Semanticleo]

FYI;

A search of 501c3's yielded zilch for Admiral
Roy F, Hoffmnan Foundation. Said search included;

Guidestar.org
greenpeople.org
chrity.com (military and veterans)

I think I'll start my own foundation.

[clarice]

As I recall actual malice under the Sullivan test includes reckless disregard and I doubt it would be hard to establish.The Swifties were killing Kerry. I saw a documentary of the campaign and one of his aides admitted they were and that Kerry couldn't respond because what they were saying was "mostly true". From there the plaintiffs would go on to establish that because Kerry couldn't respond he determined that he'd spread lies to keep the clip off the air.

[ordi]

Good morning Clarice

[Gary Maxwell]

Admiral
Roy F, Hoffmnan Foundation.

Might this be your problem? For a guy so obsessed with my spelling a short while ago, I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

[clarice]

OT:Where's PUK?

A nice gentleman from the UK wrote me last night saying I'd won 250,000 pounds in a national lottery, and all I have to do is fill out and return a questionaire. Since I never entered the lottery, I want the dough to go to a Brit. I expect there will be some small fee though the nice gentleman didn't mention that in his initial letter. And I know PUK will put these winnings to good use.
%^)

[Semanticleo]

Google '501c3 listings' and search under ANY spelling you wish.

Idiot

[clarice]

Morning, Ordi--It's also off topic, but I'm getting the idea that Israel is feinting right now for some reason I can't put my finger on. Either they feel Hezbullah is withdrawing it's stuff and they're watching to see where it's going; that they feel the Arab world is about to do something re Hezbollah; or they will attack from or to a place which Hezbollah is not anticipating.

I can't put my finger on it, but it seems foolish to give the enemy so much advance notice if they are actually planning on doing what everyone says they are.

[Barney Frank]

Well clarice, if there are any Liberians here I just happen to know the wife of a high level Liberian diplomat who has $12.5 million sitting in a bank that she wants to deposit in someone's US account.

[clarice]

She wrote me, too, but I haven't any friends there so I figured the best thing was just to let the winnings stay in the pot where a national would have a better shot at it.

[Gary Maxwell]

Idiot

Ah I see when all else fails, fall back on the old ad hom attack. Predictable and quite pathetic, even from the likes of you. May God grant you some serenity.

[Semanticleo]

"May God grant you some serenity."

Thanks, and may he release you from your rank temerity as well.

[Gary Maxwell]

rank

Rank? Rank? Hmmmm

Strange choice of adjectives. But lets put it up for a vote shall we? Anyone else smell something awful? And did it immediately follow the entrance of Cleo at 9:47am? Perhaps we have found the source of your olfactory problem. Glad to help. Wait for the vote to see if I am right.

[Neo]

The continued effort by John Kerry and his minions to go after the Swiftboat Vets in this obtuse manner just leads you to believe that he can't address this issue head on (i.e. the truth really hurts).

Frankly, Kerry really should have signed a general (instead of a friendly few) form 180 and put it all out there. It would have blown over in 6 to 10 months, but instead he prolongs the pain and hardens the view by a skeptical public that just maybe the Swiftboat Vets are right.

[Semanticleo]

"Anyone else smell something awful?"
(cry for help when the well runs dry)

[Bob]

Give her a break Gary... sounds like "Semen" didn't get any last night and woke up in a funk! Must be tough being so lonely.

[Other Tom]

Kerry lied and dissembled repeatedly in a disgraceful quest to cover himself with undeserved decorations. Every naval officer who was there knows this, and that's the principal reason they turned against him with near-unanimity. It would be dumb of either side to initiate a lawsuit, but there are a host of Kerry's stories that cannot withstand cross.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Clarice, the Hezzie guys are buried in bunkers 130 feet deep, Israel is waiting for the delivery of some of the U.S. 500 pounder bunker busters, so says this morning's news.

[vnjagvet]

SCLEO:

ADMIRAL ROY HOFFMAN FOUNDATION
10597 JOHN AYRES DR STE A
% SUSAN ARCENEAUX
FAIRFAX , VA 22032

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL INFORMATION

This organization is a 501(c)(3) Private Nonoperating Foundation.
This organization is required to file an IRS Form 990-PF.
Contributions are deductible, as provided by law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NTEE Code
T22—Private Independent Foundations

link: http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?npoId=100726197

I am a Guidestar member, and this is the info

[clarice]

Maybe, Sara, but my spidey sense says that may have been a deliberate leak to the same end...

[clarice]

Sara..Here's something else odd--the Palis are holding back. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279758,00.html

[maryrose]

hezzies have to back up and accept their losses. The Arab world needs to step up and neutralize Hezbollah once and for all then we can get back to a 2 state solution and the roadmap. Until then it will be bombs bursting in air.

[clarice]

Here's my guess.

My spidey sense says a lot is going on under the radar.
(a) why mass all those troops on the border for days losing any element of surprise?
(b) why have the Palis pulled off? http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279758,00.html
(c) Why is the international yelping so muted?

Has the Arab world threatened to cut off aid to Palestine if they don't cease? Have they agreed to force a return of the kidnapped soldiers and a 20 mile buffer zone in Lebanon?

Think/..If you were Egypt and Saudi Arabia and Jordan, what better, cheaper way to defang Iran and Syria.

[maryrose]

Kerry in any way shape or form is yesterday's news and it appears the money was donated correctly.

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
Chicken feed,don't accept any scam under seven figures.

[PeterUK]

I see Septicleo has chewed through her restraints again,she was told not to go near the cellar door.

[PeterUK]

Sara,
The request for the bunker busters was made inApril 2005.
Hezbollah is the front line between Israel and Iran,this was probably a closing window of opportunity to tackle this private army before Iran acquires nuclear weapons.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

The problem with the left or at least the lefty loonies, who are either the over-the-hill hippies of the sixties or their brainwashed offspring is they look around their rallies and think "wow 50,0000 people here!" and think everyone thinks like they do when in actuality everyone who thinks like they do is at the rally. In today's world they look at their hit counter and think because their blogs are in the top 100 they are in the majority. What they don't consider is that there were far more of us of their age in the sixties who were silent, apolitical, or anti-hippie than were participating in their love-ins, sit-ins, or anti-war rallies. Sure some of those who were drafted came home disillusioned and angry, but far more came home and went on with their ordinary lives and now 30 years later resent that their service is considered somehow less brave or patriotic than someone else's. Some would not ever vocally stand by or support the establishment, but at the same time carried a resentment that this "great unwashed" group wanted to destroy and/or smear basic patriotism and traditions. We see the same thing today with the militant gay lobbies and their attack on the institution of marriage with no regard to the deep religious convictions of their opponents that has nothing to do with whether they are supporters of the gay lifestyle or not. Life is not always black and white like the immature minds of the far left think it is or should be. Bill Clinton understood the dynamic of both sides and used it big time to his advantage, and accounts for the sleaze charges. John Kerry tried to be a Bill Clinton, but unfortunately he is really one of those immature minds still stuck in his salad days and could never pull off the trick.

[clarice]

Come now, Sara, you are talking about the genius who "voted for it before he voted against it", who called his Band of Brothers war criminals and then reported for dooty; who stood up for the internationalists as his countrymen came to see these folks as dictator' whores and corruptocrats .

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Thanks PeterUK, Sara is sitting here with a cable system (and my internet connection) going in and out. Adelphia is having terrible problems today and I've been down 4 times in the last 4 hours, back up for a few minutes and then down again. Plus, (everyone say aaaaaaaah) Sara is very sick with pneumonia that is a result of a summer cold gone very bad. If I seem a little more flaky-headed than usual, I have an excuse.

[clarice]

As places like Qatar and Kuwait and the UAE move on,(and the Taliban and Saddam were overrun and Libya folded) perhaps sense has come to the region.After all they do play chess. A more intensive war will hurt everyone but the Arabs' biggest enemies and threats--Syria and Iran.

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
Perhaps they have been listening to President Ahmasmadasahatter and realised that he means what he says,there are only 31 occluded days to go before the emergence of the 12th Imam on August 22nd.Since this manifestation is accompanied by apocalyptical events,perhaps they are out viewing bunkers to let.

[clarice]

Yeah, something like that, PUK. If they don't act, he'll be waving missiles over their heads and stirring up the lumpens in their own lands.

For once, virtually all the world has two common enemies and Israel isn't one of them.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

This is completely OT, but it is so funny, I have to share.

See:
Saturday Silliness

[clarice]

Hmm Ledeen sees the same chessboard that I do.

http://regimechangeiran.blogspot.com/2006/07/window-of-opportunity.html

[Barney Frank]

Ledeen?
I just read at some moonbat site that Ledeen has concocted a secret plan with Rove to plant some Iraqi WMD artillery shells in the Iranian desert as a pretext for invading.
Wilson's gonna drive the first stake through Ledeen's heart.
Ledeen is the international version of Rove to these whackos only he's even more sinister and the stories are even more far fetched. Of course the fact that he's a Jew just tops it off for these bigoted nutters.

[Other Tom]

Vnjagvet: I note that Cleo has not been heard from since you posted the info on the Admiral Roy Hoffmann Foundation. I believe she is feeling ill at the moment, and has called in sick.

[Gary Maxwell]

Oh boy as I continue to chuckle I type. Pretty good weekend already. GiGi gets exposed as an expat Gay fool who used numerous sock puppets to pump up his reputation ( and thereby blow whatever credibility he had ) and then the court jester shows up, proves typing in a basic search is beyond the pay grade and annouces to the board her idiocy.

Good things come in threes? Maybe Ariana will be caught in a compromising position with Barbara Boxer?

[Other Tom]

Ariana was long ago caught in, and admitted publicly, a compromising position with the estimable Michael. Isn't that enough? If not, how about revisiting her vote tally as a candidate for Governor?

Really, with these folks it's like fish in a barrel...

[clarice]

The Germans, French, Italians and Indians are all rumored to be willing to serve as an international force patrolling the border.(Fox)