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July 15, 2006

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topsecretk9

Check this out!

clarice

Blog on Chemerinsky is up.http://americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5613

Jane

>In determining if Rule 11 sanctions for filing a frivolous suit are warranted against counsel, one factor is whether the attorney who signed the complaint has taken reasonable steps to assure that the facts alleged are true.

You know if I brought a Rule 11 motion in state Court the Judge would look at me cross-eyed, and probably deny it without reading it. It would look like poor sportsmanship to him.

It's been awhile since I practiced in Federal Court, but my recollection is that Federal Judges take the law a lot more seriously than state Judges. (Now that's a sad admission isn't it?)

So Clarice, have you ever seen a Judge grant a rule 11 motion at the beginning of a lawsuit? And don't forget Chemerinsky, is providing assistance and not the counsel of record.

PeterUK

Clarice,
But the man had nothing to venture in those commodities.I can hardly see him and Val putting up cellphone masts across Africa,
"How many more of these Dahlink,the heat the flies,my hair!"

Sue

"How many more of these Dahlink,the heat the flies,my hair!"

LOL.

clarice

Jane, as the courts become overwhelmed I have seen federal court judges take the Rule more seriously. How often they do it at the very beginning of the suit I have no idea. But after granting a motion to dismiss they probably are more amenable.

Yes, he is doing this pro bono, but Rule 11 as applied to counsel really restates a lawyer's ethical obligations which apply to counsel whether he's paid for his work or not.

By signing on to this, Chemerinsky adds the weight of his position to it--Indeed, commentors here have said counsel like him wouldn't sign on to something frivolous--and he is responsible for a meritless filing.

clarice

PUK--You clearly are not in the luftmenshen loop. LOL

clarice

Jane, this article is old (1992) but it studies the frequency with which Rule 11 sanctions have been imposed.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:9KHt8yLC94oJ:www.polisci.wisc.edu/~kritzer/research/rule11/rule11Jud.htm+Frequency+of+Rule+11+Sanctions&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1>Sanctions

PeterUK

Yes,I can see Joe and Val in "African Queen II"

clarice

Hell of a great movie that was,PUK. But frankly I see them in something more colonial --- sipping tea surrounded by half clad servants, not slogging thru the muck to get away from Nazis.

Sue

Clarice,

Unless the Nazis in the movie were portrayed as Bush, Rove, et al. ::grin::

PeterUK

Right Clarice,you are thimking more of "Carry On Up The Khyber"

Jane

From the link:

Among the 1983 amendments' most important changes to Rule 11 was a shift in focus away from inquiring into what the attorney actually knew about the law and facts of the case when he or she filed a pleading. Instead, the amended rule instructed judges to inquire into what the lawyer should have known after conducting a "reasonable inquiry." It also modified the level of a judge's discretion in dealing with violations of the rule. Unlike the earlier provision that merely authorized sanctions, the new rule made sanctions mandatory.

So that makes it a very tough, and very applicable to this case, rule.

I guess it would be filed in conjunction with a 12(b)(6)

JM Hanes

Of course, the IAEA's track record is no better than the CIA's having missing Saddam's earlier nuke program (which was inadvertantly discovered elsewhere just as they were set to issue their certificate of approval) along with North Korea and Iran too.

verner

"Yes, he is doing this pro bono, but Rule 11 as applied to counsel really restates a lawyer's ethical obligations which apply to counsel whether he's paid for his work or not."

Clarice,

Has anyone figured out where he's getting his "pro bono" money from? My guess is a cushy grant from one of the left-wing money bags foundations, likely one that Soros heavily funds--seemingly unrelated to the Plame issue at hand.

clarice

Thanks, Jane. I think his comments on the air are very damaging to hom.
PUK, I never saw that film, but an online check makes it seem the kind of thing I was thinking of:
""They attacked about half hour ago. Hundreds of them. BURPERS!"

clarice

*HIm**********

clarice

verner, I am not sure anyone is paying him.

Jane

So do we know who is representing the defendants in this case?

topsecretk9

Ordi in the other thread caught this in the transcript:

HH: Erwin, do you agree with that?

EC: I do not agree with that at all. I think his official report was he found no evidence that Iraq was trying to purchase uranium from Africa.

HH: Did the 9/11 Commission find differently?

JE: It did.

HH: Erwin?

EC: I don't...I would have to go back, to be honest, and look at what the 9/11 Commission found.

HH: You haven't looked at that yet???

EC: I read it, but I sure didn't look at this aspect of it, since...

HH: And you took the case???

EC: Oh, this has nothing to do with the case. You know, even if everything Joseph Wilson said was wrong, and as far as I know it was quite true, it still was completely inappropriate to reveal that his wife was a secret CIA agent, solely for retaliation, because they didn't like what he was saying.

HH: John Eastman...

EC: If you disagree with him, reveal what he's saying is wrong. Attack him. But don't reveal that his wife's a secret agent for the CIA.

HH: John Eastman, Joe Wilson's a liar.

JE: Well, he is, and two, it wasn't just for mere retaliation purposes. Valerie Plame, at the time, was understood to be the person who was responsible, or at least involved, in the decision to send Joe Wilson over to Niger to look at this. The administration was trying to figure out how this guy, and how a cabal in the CIA who were so obviously anti-administration position, could have played such a pivotal role in trying to undercut the administration's policies. I think it was perfectly fair game for the administration to say we've got somebody over in CIA who's partly responsible for this, and to disclose to the press that connection, so we have the full story.

EC: I want to respond.

JE: Now the complaint that Erwin...

HH: Of course, Erwin. I'll let you. Go ahead.

JE: Yeah, the complaint that Erwin has filed makes no allegation that any of the disclosures were done knowing that Valerie Plame was a classified CIA operative, other than just an employee over there. And I think that's pretty important.

HH: Go ahead, Erwin.

EC: I apologize for interrupting. I thought that John was done. John, if you're going to use strong languages like liar, you should be sure what you're saying is accurate. And in this instance, the CIA verified that Joseph Wilson was not sent because of any suggestion, or even with the knowledge of Valerie Plame Wilson. **She had absolutely nothing to do with why Joseph Wilson was sent to Africa and to Iraq to see whether or not there was the purchasing of uranium. And the allegation of the complaint is that her status as a secret CIA operative was private, that here what you had was public disclosure of private facts. You had it as retaliation for free speech, and I think that states many claims under the Constitution under tort law.

He was sent to Iraq too?

clarice

Not yet. I expect when they are served, they will have DoJ lawyers look at it first to see if the government is going to raise an immunity claim.

MaidMarion

In Hugh Hewitt's interview EC says:

And the allegation of the complaint is that her status as a secret CIA operative was private, that here what you had was public disclosure of private facts.

PeterUK

To try and put the idea of "outing" as a punishment to rest for once and for all,a short poll.
1)Would learning that Joseph Wilson's wife worked for the CIA make you,
a) More likely to believe what he said?
b) Less likely to believe what he said?
c) Wonder which band Joe Wilson was in?
d) Look up CIA in a book of acronyms?
e) Fall into an unwakeable catatonic fit?
f) Blame George Bush,for invading CIA anyway?
g) Think that Joe,the lazy bugger,should not be letting his wife keep him?
h) Throw another stick for the dog?

2) Would learning that the CIA (see above) was so,impoverished/incompetant/dilitory,that it sent an amateur,Joe Wilson( see above)to Niger to investigate illicit yellow cake deals with Iraq cause you to,
a) Be incredulous?
b) Be sisgusted?
c) Be utraged?
d) Think that you should have nuked Iran anyway?
e) Believe the Nigerians had it coming for all those email scams?
d) Wonder what Yellow cake tastes like?

Do you think that revealing Valerie Plames occupation was,
a) A punishment by the administration.
b) A fantasy of utterly liberaloid weedyness?
c) That being married to Joe was punishment enough?
d) A great career move?
e) Saving her from a job which is one up from working in Walmart?
f) Nothing less than she deserved.
g) Sheesh,we are on the verge of WWIII,get a life!

lurker

Private facts disclosed by the Who's Who from 1999 - 2005?

lurker

Did you see that EU refuses to recognize Hizbollah as a terrorist organization?

lurker

The Wilson, Rockefeller, & McCarthy Ties

Some old, some new.

clarice

Yes--I've been watching this for so long everytime I read an old story it is as if seeing it for the very first time.

(Please don't forget to email me, lurker, if you hear anything on the other stuff we talked about.)

topsecretk9

Lurker...from your link

...Mary McCarthy held positions in both African and Latin American analysis desks

Maybe this has been pointed out or means nothing, but wasn't "latin American analysis" where Fulton Armstrong was or have some connection here?

clarice

Yes. It was.

Sue

Top,

I knew I had read somewhere there was a connection between Latin America and Africa, I was thinking it was Wilson, but maybe it was McCarthy.

Funny how all roads lead to Africa...

Syl

In Hugh Hewitt's interview EC says:

And the allegation of the complaint is that her status as a secret CIA operative was private, that here what you had was public disclosure of private facts.

The privacy of the fact belonged to the government, not to the individual.

BTW, I don't support this lawsuit, everybody knows that. But I did want to point out the bit about 1st amendment rights. However, any legalities that discredit the suit and/or its lawyers are okay by me.

Sue

Syl,

I have found that there is usually just enough fact to keep most lawsuits inside a courtroom. Not very many get tossed.

Sara (The Squiggler)

classified, covert, secret and yet Joe says her position was "sensitive." So what is it in their warped minds?

Sara (The Squiggler)

And, he adds that the revelation was "embarrassing" because she had to admit lying to her family and neighbors. Poor dear was embarrassed, all together now ... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!! Poor, poor Val.

Gary Maxwell

Was it just me or did it seem like the fairly regarded Duke professor was not very well imbued with the facts in this matter? Hugh Hewitt does not call people liar unless he has the prima facia evidence in front of him, since he is a lawyer. Of course with Joe the evidence fills a ring binder. And that was the only thing that EC wanted to focus on. HMMM. Pro bono. As in: Not paid and not spending any time on it either.

clarice

And worth what you didn't pay for ...(It seems clear he signed on to add "credibility" to a meritless suit in order to add credibility to a worthless,lying suit..)

Enlightened

Lurker - Wow.Just.Wow. Anyone care to comment on why Mr. Rockefeller is so quiet these days? I do believe Mr. Macranger has been on that boy's arse for quiet some time.

To paraphrase Flounder in Animal House:

"ooh boy this is gonna be great"

Sara (The Squiggler)

Lurker, thanks for reminding me of that Flopping Aces post. I even wrote about it at the time and had already forgotten. Verner, we need to do that project we talked about awhile back.

I will repeat ... I am convinced there is something very big that this whole kerfluffle about "outing" is designed to obfuscate and you all know, that I have been convinced since the MOM story broke that there is a major tie in between the two. I'm even more convinced from a gut level.

In reading the post upthread about Jefferson, it makes me wonder how I could start writing to these rich guys and talk them into a big donation to pay my expenses so I could travel and research this whole thing. ::ducking::

Rocco

If he went to Iraq too, that might explain why it took 5 days to get there. He left on Feb. 21st and arrived on the 26th, according to the SSCI.

Brenda TAYLOR

and also mr schumer hes always in front of the cameras with old joe.old joe might have something on all of them dems blackmail anyone.

Enlightened

Well, being in the transportation industry, I can say that there are no direct flights into Niger from the US. Air France has the monopoly on Africa, and Niger in particular. Joe would have flown to Paris first, then to Niamey Niger. He most likely had a layover in Paris. So 5 day transit from the US to Niger is not that much of a stretch.

clarice

I thought that, too, but when the issue was first raised on JOM someone noted the connections were far better. Nevertheless it is more likely that like everything else he said the Professor was just in error.

Enlightened

Well I know Air France currently only has one cargo plane a week from Paris to Niamey (Sunday), and 1 passenger flight that runs on Tuesday and Friday. So, he left the EC on a Thursday, arrived Paris that same day or perhaps Friday - and didn't get a connection until the following Tuesday - so that is roughly 5 days.....however Air France's flight schedule back then may have differed.....and I'm not really sure that he went on AF.

BUT - that leaves quite a few days of layover in between.....

clarice

IIRC there are more Air Afrique flights.

Rocco

How about the return trip? The SSCI states he arrived in Niger on 2/26/02.

His op-ed states...In late Feb I arrived in Niger. The next morning I met amb O-K at the embassy. I spent the next 8 days drinking sweet mint tea.

If he spent 8 days in Niger, beginning on the 26th, that brings us to March 5th.

The SSCI states, "The update also noted that the CIA would "be debriefing a source who may have information related to the alleged sale on March 5."

(U) Later that day, two CIA DO officers debriefed the former ambassador who had
returned from Niger the previous day.

The SSCI states he returned on March 4th! How is this possible?

Rocco

Now add 5 days to get home

lurker

One of Clarice's links to Fedora's articles showed a connection between Latin America, France, Niger, and Iraq. Google Fegora cogema.

BTW, Clarice, I can't find that Fedora article that talks more about Joe's second wife.

Rocco

This one lurker?

Enlightened

Hmmm, Air Afrique was run by a congolmeration of different African nations, and they (Air Afrique) was taken over by Air France in 2001? AF has had the monopoly to Africa for awhile (at least coming from my perspective in the cargo industry)...

I know a lot of other airlines interline - like Delta will fly to Johannesburg, and then change to South African Airways there on its way to Niamey - He could have gone that route. He could even have gone South African Airways to Johannesburg and then Niamey....

Somehow (IMO of course), I think Mr Bigshot would go the most expensive route possible and that is AF through Paris....

Sue

Rocco,

Anything is possible in Joe's world.

Enlightened

But then again, Air Afrique was horribly corrupt - perhaps Joey had "friends" there too - and got free air fare.....

Rocco

He's a legend in his own mind Sue!

Clarice...were you looking for the Oct 24, 2003 Senate Democratic Policy Committee Hearing?

topsecretk9

Pretty sure he says in his book he flew through France and that there were only like 1 or 2 flights to niger from France a week...that's why he was there 5 days or some such...anyway I always thought the super fast timing before his trip, knowing the 2 niger flights was hanky...

has a Feb. 19th meeting where he says this is the first time the idea of him going to Niger was raised, next day CIA says he can go (he says asks if he can go) --still has a consultation with the DOS african affairs person and his clearances update on the 20th and then on a plane for France to Niger Feb. 21? uh-huh.

AND on top of that he manages to get just in time for the 1 of 2 flights from France to Niger that works perfectly?


( I don't recall anything saying he was planning a trip already on 2002 trip, has someone found otherwise?)

clarice

No, Rocco..the May 2003 meeting which is not on their website or otherwise available.

Enlightened

TS - He allegedly left the US on the 21st of Feb - a Thursday. If he arrived in Paris that same day (roughly a 7 hour flight) then he could make the connection to Niger on Friday -

Air France has a flight to Niger from Paris on Friday and Tuesday only.

So if he did catch the Friday flight - then he did not arrive in Niger on the 26th, he arrived on the 22nd.

If he missed the Friday flight, then he lay over in Paris until the 26th flight on the following Tuesday.

In either case - it does not add up that he was there 8 days in Niger, arrived in DC on the 4th and debriefed the 5th of Mar. Back track the 8 days and add 2 for flights home, that gets him into Niger on Sat the 23rd - not possible.

lurker

Thanks, Rocco but Clarice says the author is Fedora so haven't found any articles written by Fedora that covered details about Joe's second wife.

lurker

Enlightened, what are the odds that the airplane schedules remained constant from 1999 to 2006?

clarice

Let me contact fedora and see if he can tell me where to find that article.

lurker

Fedora

Has something to say about Alan Foley and Plame working under him.

lurker

Thanks, Clarice!

Enlightened

Lurker - Flight routes remain constant based on: Payload.

Based on what I know cargo-wise, Niger has fairly consistent cargo payloads, but only enough to run a single "cargo only" flight per week from Paris.

The flight Joe might have taken is passenger, and I suspect Niger is not a huge "destination" for tourists. It is more for businessmen, and residents going to and from. And having only 2 small (737 type aircraft) flights per week, means they only send about 200 - 300 a week to Niger from Paris, if the flights are fully booked.

So yes, I would think the schedule has remained fairly consistent since '99 to present.

clarice

Another poster on that thread produced this timeline from the Stephen Haynes piece in the Weekly Standard if anyone is interested. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1509007/posts

topsecretk9

--So if he did catch the Friday flight - then he did not arrive in Niger on the 26th, he arrived on the 22nd.-

IIRC from his book that is what he said he did, took a same day flight to Niger

topsecretk9

I'm tempted to go get his book from the library again and see what he said...

topsecretk9

Here is an old TM post on it


"Now, why do I know this? Good question - according to the Senate Intel Report, Wilson left for Niger on Feb 21, and arrived Feb 26. (p. 41/2), so there was a stopover somewhere, which I distinctly recall as being France. However, it is not mentioned in his NY Times op-ed."

also TM details Kristoff

"The agency chose a former ambassador to Africa to undertake the mission, and that person flew to Niamey, Niger, in the last week of February 2002. This envoy spent one week in Niger, staying at the Sofitel and discussing his findings with the U.S. ambassador to Niger, and then flew back to Washington via Paris."

but that's wierd because James Robbin's has him:

"I spent the next eight days drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people," Wilson wrote in the New York Times last July, "current government officials, former government officials, people associated with the country's uranium business. It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place." It is unclear with whom Wilson met. No Nigerien officials have admitted to attending those meetings. El Hadj Habibou Allele, who runs COMINAK, the major uranium-mining concern, stated he was never contacted. For their part, the staff at the Gawaeye thought Wilson was a nice guy, and they nicknamed him "Bill Clinton" after his former employer.

and the way I read it there is a time hanky thing here...left on the 21st, didn't arrive in Niger till the 26th and spent 8 days there ...that would make him coming home March 6 or 7 or 8th? and also Kristoff notes he had a layover in France on the way back...

topsecretk9

oK, Sofitel did own Gaweye but it's not on their website...

topsecretk9

oK, Sofitel did own Gaweye but it's not on their website...

clarice

http://www.southtravels.com/africa/niger/sofitel/index.html

topsecretk9

Yep... I searched the site and there was no Niger...I also should have noted before they could have owned it then and sold the property...anyways same hotel.

clarice

FEDORA has responded--Here are the cites to both his articles:


Here are the links to my two Wilson articles:
---
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1256475/posts

What Wilson Didn’t Say About Africa: Joseph Wilson's Silent Partners: Posted on 10/25/2004
---
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1526309/posts

Wilsongate: Motive, Means, and Opportunity: Posted on 11/21/2005
---
Anything in particular you're looking for?


Top of Page

larwyn

At this rate, I will never catch
up on the reading. I worry how, when this thing breaks, the entire
story can be presented to the American public.

I cannot help but thinking how useful it would be if we had some
Hollywood biggee such as Bruce Willis or Mel Gibson to put this into a screenplay.

Just a quickie TV mini series would be terrific with casting to match the games the Left Coast has been playing with Cheney and Bush.

One thing is certain, the critics would be hypocrites when they complained about all the plots/subplots as they gave kudos to "Syriana".

Know that I'm dreaming. It is fine for anti-admin, anti iraq propaganda to spill into "Law and Order", "Boston Legal" et al.

We almost need an Oliver Stone.
:::laughing::::

JM Hanes

tops:

"I'm tempted to go get his book from the library again and see what he said..."

I've started to contemplate actually springing for a used copy, myself. Of course, I could buy a new one for $5.99, but I figure why not save a dollar, AND give the $4.09 it costs 2nd hand to someone other than Joe.

On whether or not Joe already had a trip in the works, I believe that was the case for the 1999 trip, not the 2002 trip and that some folks may be mistakenly conflating the two on that point.

topsecretk9

JMH
--On whether or not Joe already had a trip in the works, I believe that was the case for the 1999 trip, not the 2002 trip and that some folks may be mistakenly conflating the two on that point.--

I think the same.

--I've started to contemplate actually springing for a used copy, myself. --

ooohhh shoot...I wish you had the library down the street like me...can't imagine even 2 bucks!

Rocco

Mima Nedelcovych, Vice Preseident for International Operations, F. C. Schaffer and Associates, Inc traveled with Wilson, Alamoudi and others in Nov. 99, for a trade delegation. See Businessmen">http://www.africaintelligence.fr/LOI/archives/default_archives.asp%3Fnum%3D876%26year%3D&prev=/search%3Fq%3Deatic,1999%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN">Businessmen Introduced Well

This FEC Disclosure Report shows Nedelcovych gave Jefferson campaign donations in 01, 02, and 05.

F. C. Schaffer and Associates is a small Louisiana based sugar company but the curious thing is, the donations aren't from Schaffer, they're from AFRKA GLOBAL/PARTNER

Jane

Someone here - TM, Clarice, should write a book.

Extraneus

Here's Joe from Fedora's 10/25/2004 article, conveniently linked for the less-informed of us by Clarice:

Scowcroft and Wilson shared the view that President Bush’s policy towards the Middle East and Iraq was dominated by a cabal of pro-Israeli “neo-cons" represented by Richard Perle--as Wilson expressed his views in a June 2003 lecture, Bush’s invasion of Iraq “was all done to make Sharon's life easier. . .American soldiers are dying in order to enable Sharon to impose his terms upon the Palestinians. . .American boys and girls are dying for Israel".19

19Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV, "The Iraq Forum: Informing Iraq Advocates Since 1998: The 2003 Iraq Forum: June 14, 2003, Washington, DC: Evening Public Lecture: A State of the Movement Address: Evening Keynote Lecture", audio online at EPIC: Education for Peace in Iraq Center, link; Wilson, The Politics of Truth, 290-292, 294-297.

Is this whole thing really just about Israel to them? The more I read lately, the more ducks line up in that direction. Is Joe another leftist anti-semite?

Sara (The Squiggler)

Is Joe another leftist anti-semite?

A Francophile pro-Saddam, anti-war celebrity hound - ya think! Next thing you know, we'll see him boogying down with the Dancin' Duo of Cindy and Cynthia.

Rocco

Check out the 990 tax information link in the EPIC ABOUT section also. Moveon, Tides, etc.

Then check out the 2002 link. Tom Warrick from the State Department. Scott Ritter and lots of arab organizations at the bottom including the Muslim American Society.

"Citing several cases, Bray pointed to that of Abdulrahman Alamoudi, calling his arrest on non-terrorism related charges of violating U.S. political sanctions imposed on Libya, a case of selective prosecution, pointing out that non-Muslim Americans who have maintained contacts and conducted business with Libya, if prosecuted, were prosecuted in under civil, not criminal law."

Enlightened

Well, Hmmm. Jeez - ya just gotta LOVE them freepers huh?

Ultra Liar Joe Wilson says he never spoke (publicly) AGAINST the Iraq war in the 8 months that passed between his Niger '02 trip and the OpEd.

But he did hobnob with some very interesting folks didn't he? And how interesting the situation in Iraq/Israel/Lebanon today has a link to - Joe Wilson.

One: Abdulrahman Alamoudi ('99 Niger trip)

38. According to a Jerusalem Post article, dated June 22, 2001, Alamoudi participated in a Beirut Conference in January 2001 alongside leaders of Hamas , Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and al- Qaeda. A communique issued by the conference called for a boycott on American and Israeli products, stating: "America today is a second Israel.

"http://www.4law.co.il/Lea275z400.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1265645/posts

Joe's trip to Niger in '02 was most likely to cover his and the certain members of the CIA's tracks.

PS: Alamoudi was a campaign contributor to:
Cynthia McKinney - she of the Dancing Sheehan Brigade.

topsecretk9

-- Is Joe another leftist anti-semite?--

You be the judge:

When the Democrats take control of congress, their first order of business needs to be crushing the neoconservativers out of power in every foreign policy arena. Drive a damn stake through the heart of every single one of them, whatever it takes. They have been wrong, fundamentally wrong, on every...single....position they have ever taken. They have not been right about one single thing...

...The neocons need to be forced back into the dark holes from which they crawled. They are nothing but parasites who serve nobody and nothing but themselves who are using the Republican Party as a serving host...

this is also interesting view of Wilson's, especially since Bolton is kicking ass and taking names.

Wolfowitz did his best to destroy the Department of Defense so I guess it's time for him to go destroy the World Bank and he's got a willing partner in John Bolton who has taken it upon himself to destroy the United Nations, an organization that, since its' inception , the U.S. has benefitted from as much or more so than it has given.
Barney Frank

"I guess it's time for him [Wolfowitz]to go destroy the World Bank and he's got a willing partner in John Bolton who has taken it upon himself to destroy the United Nations"

Finally, that pinhead Wilson is talking sense.

JM Hanes

tops:

"...the United Nations, an organization that, since its inception, the U.S. has benefitted from as much or more so than it has given."

ROTFLMAO! Maybe he knows where the American share of Oil-for-Food $$ ended up....

JM Hanes

Rocco:

Nice work on nailing down the Wilson > Jefferson tie-in! You consistently detail the most fascinating connections from a remarkable range of sources. Did someone stamp RESEARCH on your birth certificate?

Patrick

This thread will ont fall just short of 1000 comments. Isn't Pete around, or Leo?
Hello? is this thing on?

clarice

I wrote an article on the connections and also thank ROcco who I credited in it. When it's up I'll post it.

lurker

Clarice, I found the link to the first article and added it earlier in this thread. The second link was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

Ah, I see the following in the second article:

"Motive: Introduction: A Tale of Two Stories

Novak’s article actually records two conflicting accounts of who initiated Wilson’s involvement in the CIA’s Niger investigation, one coming from two Bush administration sources (the first still unknown, the second now known to be Karl Rove) and one coming from a CIA source (now identified as CIA spokesman Bill Harlow, who presumably got his information from either written records or checking verbally with one of the CIA Counterproliferation Division [CPD] personnel handling Wilson’s trip):

Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.3

In Wilson’s book, his version of the story is closer to what Novak reports the CIA told him:

Apart from being the conduit of a message from a colleague in her office asking if I would be willing to have a conversation about Niger’s uranium industry, Valerie had had nothing to do with the matter. She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip. The suggestion that Valerie might have improperly influenced the decision to send me to Niger was easy to disprove.4

However, a Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) review of prewar intelligence on Iraq found evidence contradicting both Wilson’s version and what Novak was told by the CIA. The SSCI report mentions that the CIA had previously sent Wilson to Niger in 1999 “after his wife mentioned to her supervisors that her husband was planning a business trip to Niger in the near future and might be willing to use his contacts in the region”. In relation to Wilson’s 2002 trip to Niger, a CPD reports officer told Senate investigators that Wilson’s wife “offered up his name”. Consistent with this officer’s statement is a memo Valerie Plame sent the CPD’s Deputy Chief on February 12, 2002, the day before CPD sent a cable to a CIA overseas station requesting concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson to Niger. In the memo Plame says her husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.5

In response to criticisms arising from the SSCI’s findings, Wilson published an article in the Los Angeles Times defending himself:

In the last two weeks, since the Senate Intelligence Committee released its report on intelligence failures, the smear attacks have intensified. The primary new charge from the Republicans is that I lied when I said Valerie had nothing to do with my being assigned to go to Niger. That's important to the administration because there's a criminal investigation underway, and if she did play a role, divulging her CIA status may be defendable. In fact, though the Senate committee cites a CIA source saying Valerie had a role in the assignment, it ignores what the agency told Newsday reporters as early as July 2003, long before I ever acknowledged Valerie's CIA employment. "A senior intelligence officer," the reporters wrote, "confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger. "But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. 'They [the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story] were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising,' he said. 'There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason,' he said. 'I can't figure out what it could be.' " Last week, a CIA source repeated this to CNN and the Los Angeles Times.6"

Article followed this part with Wilson's post-testimony letter, which was also provided in a link earlier.

Joe Wilson lied so much that I tend to believe the Senate SSCI report over Wilson's words, both verbal and written.

lurker

Another of Rocco's post that might be interesting:

"

Take a look at the names in this Georgetown University, Edmund A Walsh School of Foreign Service newsletter.

Scroll to the third picture down and look for Rita Jupe,CNN, Yaser Abushaban, Rock Creek Corporation, etc

Keep scrolling and look for Charles Merimee, Banque Paribas.

Wasn't Aburdene involved in a previous banking scandal?"

The 990's referred to Erik Gustafson. Anyone know who he is? His office is off Penn street. Where is Joe's office?

clarice

I believe the Al-Alamoudi who gave him office space (Muhammed)left the country after a member of his family was convicted of aiding terrorists. I do not recall where Wilson now has offices. As for Aburdene ewcheck Fedora. I believe he had some info on that.

lurker

Aburdene

"Under Mohammed Alamoudi’s direction, Rock Creek was chaired by Elias Aburdene, an Arab-American international banking advisor and lobbyist who had previously advised banks linked to organized crime and intelligence community figures involved in the S&L Scam. In 2003 and 2004 Aburdene donated to the Sandhills Political Action Committee, which was affiliated with Senator Chuck Hagel, 13 a leading Republican critic of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy."

lurker

30 FOIAs submitted by Veterans for Common Sense, one of the major contributors to EPIC.

I see Siniora changing his position by blaming Hizbollah for this war.

topsecretk9

OK, I went to the library.

I am going to make the same observations about his book I always do:

On the self of notable political types writing about notable things the only book that that carry's a picture of the books author **one the spine** is Mojo Jo Jo's and when I pull it out between the notable people writing about notable things it's really hard to ignore how mush larger this book is compared to the notable authors writing about worthy things.

It is 450 pages plus

26 pages of his own written news article,

Just to give you idea...I have Robert S. McNamara's "In Retrospect"

355 pages

John Dean's "Blind Ambition"

334 pages

Anyhoo...page 16 he writes:

"...The fact was, though, I did know the officials who would have made the decisions and signed the documents, if the sale had really taken place. Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick had a arrived just as the new elected government was taking power. Her current contacts were undoubtedly excellent, but since most of the officials of the former military regime had by now melted back into private life, she could not know those potentially useful figure as well as I did. [nice huh?]

We discussed whom I might see and what questions I would pose were I to undertake the mission. We plotted it out, as if we were moving pieced on a game board, with a number of possible outcomes, trying to determine whether there was any value to the trip [ignore the DOS people sitting next to you vocalizing the trip would be a total waste of time] I did not know at the time that other American officials were also looking into the matter. For my part, I made it clear that I would require the approval of both the Department of State and the ambassador before traveling [Why? Does this not seem weird?] I also stipulated that I would have to be open with my contacts, not concealing the fact that I was traveling on behalf of the U.S. Government. [ Again, ignore those folks sitting next to you rolling their eyes, expressing their totally lack of faith and purpose in this "mission"] I would accept not reimbursement from the CIA for my expenses, but I expected no wages for my time. {My beef here, but does anyone really know if they were offering wages? I don't think so] At the conclusion of my trip, the Agency would receive my oral report. As the two-hour meeting ended, my hosts said they would make a decision and get back to me soon, and I told them I would need adequate advance notice to clear my calendar and make the necessary arrangements.
[Re-read that again and go through the timeline, Feb. 19 meet, Feb, 20 they give OK, Feb, 21 He's on a plane! - not much of a calendar to clear I guess]

A few days later, I was asked to goto Niamey [ sneaky little liar he is, isn't he? A few days later? hmmm) Within hours, I went over to the State Department to see assistant secretary of state os African Affairs, Walter Kansteiner, and his principal deputy. I had known Walter since I'd served on the National Security Council and admired his leadership of the Bureau of African Affair in the SD. Under Walter, morale in his bureau was high, and progress had been made a t resolving conflicts from Sierra Leone in the west to Sudan in the east....--a bunch of Wilson's opinions-- He agreed to my trip and contacted Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick, who also agreed to it. [ I’m sorry but I think this is weird…they had to agree to his trip? HUH? He just said Owens-Kirkpatrick didn’t have nearly the great contacts he had and um he was going for the CIA? Does anyone get this? The purpose of this?]

A visa was easy to obtain [ don’t know, but within Feb.20 to depart Feb. 21 seems pretty fast, like less than 24 hours fast], as I had been friends with Niger’s envoy to America, Joseph Diatta, and his family since my time in Niamey in the mid-1970’s, and worked closely with him when I was in government. Now there remained only the travel arrangements.

There were only two flights a week to Niamey from Europe, and they arrived within eight hours of each other. The flight I took arrived in the evening, the other got in the following morning. Both planes would depart later the same day, which would have left me in Niamey for only twelve hours. If I had waited for the next week’s flights, I’d be in town for 8 days – far longer than necessary for the task, but realistically my only option.

So the plane passage makes me more confused because Wilson seems to say that he did a quick turn in Europe to Niger, but the timeline doesn’t seem to work…flew from the states Feb. 21 arrived in Niger the 26th. Either way there is something hanky here, because by his own words he stay the long time in Niger because of the flight schedule.

cathyf
Keep scrolling and look for Charles Merimee, Banque Paribas.
Paribas was the Oil For Food program banker...

cathy :-)

clarice

Hitchens has been consistently brilliant about Wilson.

cathyf, so many of those involved in Arabian business are involved in US university funding some days I think only our enemies are calling the shots(I.e. athe Arabic language departments) and the nutsos are teaching.

topsecretk9

Howell Raines

"One audience member asked about the role of media leaks. Raines opted not to go in-depth since he no longer is a working journalist, but offered a bit of a leak of his own:

"Almost all leakers are lawyers. That's the bottom line.""

So...no wonder the Pres. made the call...OPR...

clarice

Don't remind me! I'm so behind on my piece on the DoJ*ugh*

Rocco

Thanks for the kind words JM. I'm terrible at connecting dots so when I find something I think might be interesting, I throw it out there and hope that you people out here might make some sense of it. If you ever think I'm straying off course, please let me know because I trust the judgement of the smartest people on the internet....YOU! I can't say it enough, you people out here are my hero's and I just want to be a little part of a group who is going to get to the bottom of this treachery.

clarice

Rocco, darling, the piece citing you is due to go online Monday. (Power outages prevented it going up today and we thought it would get more coverage on Monday, rather than the weekend.)

Rocco

I'd follow you into battle clarice...you're the BEST!

Thanks

clarice

Smooches back but I'm a nearsighted klutz..

sbw

1000th Comment!

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Wilson/Plame