Joe and Valerie Wilson announced their civil suit against Cheney, Libby, Rove, and ten Evildoers to be named later. From the left - anticipation! From the right - excitement!
In the brutal, zero-sum world of partisan politics, both parties cannot have their electoral prospects enhanced by this lawsuit. So why the shared excitement?
For the Democrats, this civil suit represents an opportunity to depose Bush Administration officials and maybe strike gold with some embarrassing or even illegal tidbit (think Paula Jones). On the Republican side, there is a sense that Joe Wilson may be humiliated in discovery, along with the media and the anti-Administration CIA cabal alluded to recently by Rep. Peter Hoekstra.
Advantage - Democrats! Neither Joe Wilson, Tim Russert, nor George Tenet are candidates for anything; Bush won't be either, but he is the leader of his party, notionally at least. The Dems have a puncher's chance of scoring a big win; the Reps are more likely to "win" this suit, but what is victory - humiliating Joe Wilson? Been there, done that, and John Kerry cut him loose to ice the cake.
Within the confines of his base on the far left, Joe Wilson is a teflon legend and no discovery can shame him. Nor is the media likely to self-flagellate, regardless of what the discovery process might reveal about, let's say, Nick Kristof or Andrea Mitchell, either of whom may have been aware of Ms. Plame's CIA affiliation. For Reps, this case may be entertaining but the upside is limited.
QUICK HITS: Byron York notes the Paula Jones precedent and calls this case "
A LEFT-WING BLOG WITH A LEGAL CAPTION". Well, I'll call it the Paula Jones case with better fashion sense.
The Crank surveys the legal landscape from the right; I like this:
6. The initial issue in the case, before the legal sufficiency of the allegations and before any discovery is taken, is whether some or all defendants (or other interested parties) will ask for a stay or dismissal of the litigation. There are three bases for doing so. One, the liberal quotation from the indictment underscores the fact that this suit overlaps substantially with the subject of a pending criminal trial. Fitzgerald may well intervene to ask for a stay of all proceedings - he won't want his trial witnesses deposed in a civil suit.
Oooh, talk about A Time For Choosing - what will folks on the left say if St. Patrick himself puts a hold on the Wilson suit?
From the left, Paul Kiel of TPM Muckraker provides a helpful outline of the causes of action. I note what seems to be a clever feature of the suit - the plaintiffs have a possible problem with the immunity of Federal officials in the performance of their duties. My guess is that the attorneys have designed a work-around - some of the causes of action assert that by acting in their official capacity from their lofty perches of power in the White House, the defendants violated the free speech rights of private citizen Joe. (OK, Joe Wilson was on TV all the time and had hooked on to the Kerry campaign in May 2003, but never mind - the cause of action is, you can't bully from the bully pulpit in your official capacity.)
However, other causes of action assert that the defendants engaged in behavior that was beyond the scope of their official duties, and therefore (presumably) does not merit immunity.
My guess - this was written partly so that a judge can't dismiss all of the causes for the same immunity-related reason.
As to the Wilson Legal Trust - great idea! Shadowy financiers can keep Joe alive as a gadfly forever (I assume the donors will be anonymous). No whining from the right, please - this is all a Paula Jones flashback/payback. Buy his books, pay his speaking fees, keep Joe in clover, and he will risk personal embarrassment for the greater cause of taking a bite out of Bush.
Here is some NY Times coverage, and the WaPo. No mention of Ms. Plame's new book deal; no mention that Ms. Plame was not fired - she resigned with her pension. However, I like this from the Times:
But the suit is also likely to face major hurdles, notably the issue of whether the officials have any immunity for their actions. The general standard from a 1982 Supreme Court case is that federal officials may be sued for violating someone’s constitutional rights if a reasonable person would believe they had violated “clearly established law.”
The pretrial motions in the Libby case have not, as yet, produced evidence that there was any willful effort to leak Ms. Wilson’s identity.
STILL MORE: JOE v. JOE, or JOSH v. JOSH: I have to admit, Joe Wilson provides lots of fun. Let's track Josh Marshall, who has both of these posts appearing on his blog today:
Why is CNN's John King still repeating the Republican bamboozle (for a detailed forensic debamboozlement see this post) that Joe Wilson 'said Dick Cheney sent him to Niger'.
TPM Reader Joe Wilson on Bob Novak ...
Robert Novak, some other commentators and the Administration continue to try to completely distort the role that Valerie Wilson played with respect to Ambassador Wilson's trip to Niger. The facts are beyond dispute. The Office of the Vice President requested that the CIA investigate reports of alleged uranium purchases by Iraq from Niger.
Emphasis added. Let's follow the link to the "forensic debamboozlement:
[Wilson] said that the CIA, following up on a query from the vice president, sent him on a fact-finding mission to Niger.
Well, which is it - was the CIA "following up on a query", as per the debamboozlement, or did the "Office of the Vice President [request] that the CIA investigate reports"?
Well, the facts are clear, just like Joe said, if we can rely on the SSCI (p. 49 of the .pdf):
Officials from the CIA's DO Counterproliferation Division (CPD) told Committee staff that in response to questions from the Vice President's Office and the
Departments of State and Defense on the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal, CPD officials discussed ways to obtain additional information.
Everyone was asking, so the CIA decided to answer, and gosh - nothing about the OVP requesting an investigation. The facts are clear indeed.
And P.S. - why did Kristof write on June 13, 2003 in a column that relied on Wilson as an anonymous source that "an envoy investigating at the behest of the office of Vice President Dick Cheney" went to Niger? Why did Chris Matthews repeat "at the behest" as if hypnotized on July 8, 2003, *after* the publication of Wilson's op-ed in which he never said he was sent by Cheney?
ALMOST DONE: In fact, it's time to say Bye, Bye Ms. American Spy...
FOR THE REAL LAWYERS: Presumably Wilson's legal talent has considered this, but this comment from Brent Richardson was interesting and over my head:
The Plame lawsuit may be dismissed for failure to file an administrative claim under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The DOJ will move to substitute the name of the United States as defendant because the actions occurred in the individual defendant's scope of employment. The Westfall Act provides federal employees with absolute immunity and the DOJ will probably certify that the defendants were acting in scope. The federal court can have a hearing on the scope issue, but iff the govt prevails, the Court would dismiss for failure to file the prerequisite claim. The govt then has six months to investigate before a lawsuit can be filed under the Federal Tort Claims Act. An FTCA lawsuit would be subject dismissal due to the intentional torts exceptions of the Act. In addition, as a federal employee herself, Ms Plame would have to exhaust her administrative remedies prior to any lawsuit.
A link to the Westfall Act takes me here; an explanation of sorts is here.
Check this out!
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 01:29 PM
Blog on Chemerinsky is up.http://americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5613
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 01:47 PM
>In determining if Rule 11 sanctions for filing a frivolous suit are warranted against counsel, one factor is whether the attorney who signed the complaint has taken reasonable steps to assure that the facts alleged are true.
You know if I brought a Rule 11 motion in state Court the Judge would look at me cross-eyed, and probably deny it without reading it. It would look like poor sportsmanship to him.
It's been awhile since I practiced in Federal Court, but my recollection is that Federal Judges take the law a lot more seriously than state Judges. (Now that's a sad admission isn't it?)
So Clarice, have you ever seen a Judge grant a rule 11 motion at the beginning of a lawsuit? And don't forget Chemerinsky, is providing assistance and not the counsel of record.
Posted by: Jane | July 20, 2006 at 02:06 PM
Clarice,
But the man had nothing to venture in those commodities.I can hardly see him and Val putting up cellphone masts across Africa,
"How many more of these Dahlink,the heat the flies,my hair!"
Posted by: PeterUK | July 20, 2006 at 02:08 PM
"How many more of these Dahlink,the heat the flies,my hair!"
LOL.
Posted by: Sue | July 20, 2006 at 02:15 PM
Jane, as the courts become overwhelmed I have seen federal court judges take the Rule more seriously. How often they do it at the very beginning of the suit I have no idea. But after granting a motion to dismiss they probably are more amenable.
Yes, he is doing this pro bono, but Rule 11 as applied to counsel really restates a lawyer's ethical obligations which apply to counsel whether he's paid for his work or not.
By signing on to this, Chemerinsky adds the weight of his position to it--Indeed, commentors here have said counsel like him wouldn't sign on to something frivolous--and he is responsible for a meritless filing.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 02:18 PM
PUK--You clearly are not in the luftmenshen loop. LOL
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 02:19 PM
Jane, this article is old (1992) but it studies the frequency with which Rule 11 sanctions have been imposed.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:9KHt8yLC94oJ:www.polisci.wisc.edu/~kritzer/research/rule11/rule11Jud.htm+Frequency+of+Rule+11+Sanctions&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1>Sanctions
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 02:22 PM
Yes,I can see Joe and Val in "African Queen II"
Posted by: PeterUK | July 20, 2006 at 02:32 PM
Hell of a great movie that was,PUK. But frankly I see them in something more colonial --- sipping tea surrounded by half clad servants, not slogging thru the muck to get away from Nazis.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 02:42 PM
Clarice,
Unless the Nazis in the movie were portrayed as Bush, Rove, et al. ::grin::
Posted by: Sue | July 20, 2006 at 02:56 PM
Right Clarice,you are thimking more of "Carry On Up The Khyber"
Posted by: PeterUK | July 20, 2006 at 03:00 PM
From the link:
Among the 1983 amendments' most important changes to Rule 11 was a shift in focus away from inquiring into what the attorney actually knew about the law and facts of the case when he or she filed a pleading. Instead, the amended rule instructed judges to inquire into what the lawyer should have known after conducting a "reasonable inquiry." It also modified the level of a judge's discretion in dealing with violations of the rule. Unlike the earlier provision that merely authorized sanctions, the new rule made sanctions mandatory.
So that makes it a very tough, and very applicable to this case, rule.
I guess it would be filed in conjunction with a 12(b)(6)
Posted by: Jane | July 20, 2006 at 03:04 PM
Of course, the IAEA's track record is no better than the CIA's having missing Saddam's earlier nuke program (which was inadvertantly discovered elsewhere just as they were set to issue their certificate of approval) along with North Korea and Iran too.
Posted by: JM Hanes | July 20, 2006 at 03:23 PM
"Yes, he is doing this pro bono, but Rule 11 as applied to counsel really restates a lawyer's ethical obligations which apply to counsel whether he's paid for his work or not."
Clarice,
Has anyone figured out where he's getting his "pro bono" money from? My guess is a cushy grant from one of the left-wing money bags foundations, likely one that Soros heavily funds--seemingly unrelated to the Plame issue at hand.
Posted by: verner | July 20, 2006 at 03:25 PM
Thanks, Jane. I think his comments on the air are very damaging to hom.
PUK, I never saw that film, but an online check makes it seem the kind of thing I was thinking of:
""They attacked about half hour ago. Hundreds of them. BURPERS!"
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 03:28 PM
*HIm**********
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 03:29 PM
verner, I am not sure anyone is paying him.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 03:36 PM
So do we know who is representing the defendants in this case?
Posted by: Jane | July 20, 2006 at 03:43 PM
Ordi in the other thread caught this in the transcript:
He was sent to Iraq too?
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 03:45 PM
Not yet. I expect when they are served, they will have DoJ lawyers look at it first to see if the government is going to raise an immunity claim.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 03:45 PM
In Hugh Hewitt's interview EC says:
And the allegation of the complaint is that her status as a secret CIA operative was private, that here what you had was public disclosure of private facts.
Posted by: MaidMarion | July 20, 2006 at 04:04 PM
To try and put the idea of "outing" as a punishment to rest for once and for all,a short poll.
1)Would learning that Joseph Wilson's wife worked for the CIA make you,
a) More likely to believe what he said?
b) Less likely to believe what he said?
c) Wonder which band Joe Wilson was in?
d) Look up CIA in a book of acronyms?
e) Fall into an unwakeable catatonic fit?
f) Blame George Bush,for invading CIA anyway?
g) Think that Joe,the lazy bugger,should not be letting his wife keep him?
h) Throw another stick for the dog?
2) Would learning that the CIA (see above) was so,impoverished/incompetant/dilitory,that it sent an amateur,Joe Wilson( see above)to Niger to investigate illicit yellow cake deals with Iraq cause you to,
a) Be incredulous?
b) Be sisgusted?
c) Be utraged?
d) Think that you should have nuked Iran anyway?
e) Believe the Nigerians had it coming for all those email scams?
d) Wonder what Yellow cake tastes like?
Do you think that revealing Valerie Plames occupation was,
a) A punishment by the administration.
b) A fantasy of utterly liberaloid weedyness?
c) That being married to Joe was punishment enough?
d) A great career move?
e) Saving her from a job which is one up from working in Walmart?
f) Nothing less than she deserved.
g) Sheesh,we are on the verge of WWIII,get a life!
Posted by: PeterUK | July 20, 2006 at 04:28 PM
Private facts disclosed by the Who's Who from 1999 - 2005?
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 04:29 PM
Did you see that EU refuses to recognize Hizbollah as a terrorist organization?
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 04:30 PM
The Wilson, Rockefeller, & McCarthy Ties
Some old, some new.
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 04:33 PM
Yes--I've been watching this for so long everytime I read an old story it is as if seeing it for the very first time.
(Please don't forget to email me, lurker, if you hear anything on the other stuff we talked about.)
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 04:39 PM
Lurker...from your link
Maybe this has been pointed out or means nothing, but wasn't "latin American analysis" where Fulton Armstrong was or have some connection here?
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 04:40 PM
Yes. It was.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 04:50 PM
Top,
I knew I had read somewhere there was a connection between Latin America and Africa, I was thinking it was Wilson, but maybe it was McCarthy.
Funny how all roads lead to Africa...
Posted by: Sue | July 20, 2006 at 04:56 PM
In Hugh Hewitt's interview EC says:
And the allegation of the complaint is that her status as a secret CIA operative was private, that here what you had was public disclosure of private facts.
The privacy of the fact belonged to the government, not to the individual.
BTW, I don't support this lawsuit, everybody knows that. But I did want to point out the bit about 1st amendment rights. However, any legalities that discredit the suit and/or its lawyers are okay by me.
Posted by: Syl | July 20, 2006 at 05:10 PM
Syl,
I have found that there is usually just enough fact to keep most lawsuits inside a courtroom. Not very many get tossed.
Posted by: Sue | July 20, 2006 at 05:23 PM
classified, covert, secret and yet Joe says her position was "sensitive." So what is it in their warped minds?
Posted by: Sara (The Squiggler) | July 20, 2006 at 05:25 PM
And, he adds that the revelation was "embarrassing" because she had to admit lying to her family and neighbors. Poor dear was embarrassed, all together now ... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!! Poor, poor Val.
Posted by: Sara (The Squiggler) | July 20, 2006 at 05:28 PM
Was it just me or did it seem like the fairly regarded Duke professor was not very well imbued with the facts in this matter? Hugh Hewitt does not call people liar unless he has the prima facia evidence in front of him, since he is a lawyer. Of course with Joe the evidence fills a ring binder. And that was the only thing that EC wanted to focus on. HMMM. Pro bono. As in: Not paid and not spending any time on it either.
Posted by: Gary Maxwell | July 20, 2006 at 05:31 PM
And worth what you didn't pay for ...(It seems clear he signed on to add "credibility" to a meritless suit in order to add credibility to a worthless,lying suit..)
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 05:40 PM
Lurker - Wow.Just.Wow. Anyone care to comment on why Mr. Rockefeller is so quiet these days? I do believe Mr. Macranger has been on that boy's arse for quiet some time.
To paraphrase Flounder in Animal House:
"ooh boy this is gonna be great"
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 05:48 PM
Lurker, thanks for reminding me of that Flopping Aces post. I even wrote about it at the time and had already forgotten. Verner, we need to do that project we talked about awhile back.
I will repeat ... I am convinced there is something very big that this whole kerfluffle about "outing" is designed to obfuscate and you all know, that I have been convinced since the MOM story broke that there is a major tie in between the two. I'm even more convinced from a gut level.
In reading the post upthread about Jefferson, it makes me wonder how I could start writing to these rich guys and talk them into a big donation to pay my expenses so I could travel and research this whole thing. ::ducking::
Posted by: Sara (The Squiggler) | July 20, 2006 at 06:05 PM
If he went to Iraq too, that might explain why it took 5 days to get there. He left on Feb. 21st and arrived on the 26th, according to the SSCI.
Posted by: Rocco | July 20, 2006 at 06:13 PM
and also mr schumer hes always in front of the cameras with old joe.old joe might have something on all of them dems blackmail anyone.
Posted by: Brenda TAYLOR | July 20, 2006 at 06:49 PM
Well, being in the transportation industry, I can say that there are no direct flights into Niger from the US. Air France has the monopoly on Africa, and Niger in particular. Joe would have flown to Paris first, then to Niamey Niger. He most likely had a layover in Paris. So 5 day transit from the US to Niger is not that much of a stretch.
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 06:50 PM
I thought that, too, but when the issue was first raised on JOM someone noted the connections were far better. Nevertheless it is more likely that like everything else he said the Professor was just in error.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 06:54 PM
Well I know Air France currently only has one cargo plane a week from Paris to Niamey (Sunday), and 1 passenger flight that runs on Tuesday and Friday. So, he left the EC on a Thursday, arrived Paris that same day or perhaps Friday - and didn't get a connection until the following Tuesday - so that is roughly 5 days.....however Air France's flight schedule back then may have differed.....and I'm not really sure that he went on AF.
BUT - that leaves quite a few days of layover in between.....
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 07:09 PM
IIRC there are more Air Afrique flights.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 07:19 PM
How about the return trip? The SSCI states he arrived in Niger on 2/26/02.
His op-ed states...In late Feb I arrived in Niger. The next morning I met amb O-K at the embassy. I spent the next 8 days drinking sweet mint tea.
If he spent 8 days in Niger, beginning on the 26th, that brings us to March 5th.
The SSCI states, "The update also noted that the CIA would "be debriefing a source who may have information related to the alleged sale on March 5."
(U) Later that day, two CIA DO officers debriefed the former ambassador who had
returned from Niger the previous day.
The SSCI states he returned on March 4th! How is this possible?
Posted by: Rocco | July 20, 2006 at 07:30 PM
Now add 5 days to get home
Posted by: Rocco | July 20, 2006 at 07:34 PM
One of Clarice's links to Fedora's articles showed a connection between Latin America, France, Niger, and Iraq. Google Fegora cogema.
BTW, Clarice, I can't find that Fedora article that talks more about Joe's second wife.
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 07:34 PM
This one lurker?
Posted by: Rocco | July 20, 2006 at 07:39 PM
Hmmm, Air Afrique was run by a congolmeration of different African nations, and they (Air Afrique) was taken over by Air France in 2001? AF has had the monopoly to Africa for awhile (at least coming from my perspective in the cargo industry)...
I know a lot of other airlines interline - like Delta will fly to Johannesburg, and then change to South African Airways there on its way to Niamey - He could have gone that route. He could even have gone South African Airways to Johannesburg and then Niamey....
Somehow (IMO of course), I think Mr Bigshot would go the most expensive route possible and that is AF through Paris....
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 07:40 PM
Rocco,
Anything is possible in Joe's world.
Posted by: Sue | July 20, 2006 at 07:44 PM
But then again, Air Afrique was horribly corrupt - perhaps Joey had "friends" there too - and got free air fare.....
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 07:46 PM
He's a legend in his own mind Sue!
Clarice...were you looking for the Oct 24, 2003 Senate Democratic Policy Committee Hearing?
Posted by: Rocco | July 20, 2006 at 07:54 PM
Pretty sure he says in his book he flew through France and that there were only like 1 or 2 flights to niger from France a week...that's why he was there 5 days or some such...anyway I always thought the super fast timing before his trip, knowing the 2 niger flights was hanky...
has a Feb. 19th meeting where he says this is the first time the idea of him going to Niger was raised, next day CIA says he can go (he says asks if he can go) --still has a consultation with the DOS african affairs person and his clearances update on the 20th and then on a plane for France to Niger Feb. 21? uh-huh.
AND on top of that he manages to get just in time for the 1 of 2 flights from France to Niger that works perfectly?
( I don't recall anything saying he was planning a trip already on 2002 trip, has someone found otherwise?)
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 07:56 PM
No, Rocco..the May 2003 meeting which is not on their website or otherwise available.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 08:00 PM
TS - He allegedly left the US on the 21st of Feb - a Thursday. If he arrived in Paris that same day (roughly a 7 hour flight) then he could make the connection to Niger on Friday -
Air France has a flight to Niger from Paris on Friday and Tuesday only.
So if he did catch the Friday flight - then he did not arrive in Niger on the 26th, he arrived on the 22nd.
If he missed the Friday flight, then he lay over in Paris until the 26th flight on the following Tuesday.
In either case - it does not add up that he was there 8 days in Niger, arrived in DC on the 4th and debriefed the 5th of Mar. Back track the 8 days and add 2 for flights home, that gets him into Niger on Sat the 23rd - not possible.
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 08:09 PM
Thanks, Rocco but Clarice says the author is Fedora so haven't found any articles written by Fedora that covered details about Joe's second wife.
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 08:09 PM
Enlightened, what are the odds that the airplane schedules remained constant from 1999 to 2006?
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 08:13 PM
Let me contact fedora and see if he can tell me where to find that article.
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 08:31 PM
Fedora
Has something to say about Alan Foley and Plame working under him.
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 08:34 PM
Thanks, Clarice!
Posted by: lurker | July 20, 2006 at 08:35 PM
Lurker - Flight routes remain constant based on: Payload.
Based on what I know cargo-wise, Niger has fairly consistent cargo payloads, but only enough to run a single "cargo only" flight per week from Paris.
The flight Joe might have taken is passenger, and I suspect Niger is not a huge "destination" for tourists. It is more for businessmen, and residents going to and from. And having only 2 small (737 type aircraft) flights per week, means they only send about 200 - 300 a week to Niger from Paris, if the flights are fully booked.
So yes, I would think the schedule has remained fairly consistent since '99 to present.
Posted by: Enlightened | July 20, 2006 at 08:40 PM
Another poster on that thread produced this timeline from the Stephen Haynes piece in the Weekly Standard if anyone is interested. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1509007/posts
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 08:49 PM
--So if he did catch the Friday flight - then he did not arrive in Niger on the 26th, he arrived on the 22nd.-
IIRC from his book that is what he said he did, took a same day flight to Niger
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 08:57 PM
I'm tempted to go get his book from the library again and see what he said...
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 09:00 PM
Here is an old TM post on it
also TM details Kristoff
but that's wierd because James Robbin's has him:
and the way I read it there is a time hanky thing here...left on the 21st, didn't arrive in Niger till the 26th and spent 8 days there ...that would make him coming home March 6 or 7 or 8th? and also Kristoff notes he had a layover in France on the way back...
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 09:11 PM
oK, Sofitel did own Gaweye but it's not on their website...
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 09:31 PM
oK, Sofitel did own Gaweye but it's not on their website...
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 09:32 PM
http://www.southtravels.com/africa/niger/sofitel/index.html
Posted by: clarice | July 20, 2006 at 09:51 PM
Yep... I searched the site and there was no Niger...I also should have noted before they could have owned it then and sold the property...anyways same hotel.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 20, 2006 at 09:59 PM
FEDORA has responded--Here are the cites to both his articles:
Here are the links to my two Wilson articles:
---
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1256475/posts
What Wilson Didn’t Say About Africa: Joseph Wilson's Silent Partners: Posted on 10/25/2004
---
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1526309/posts
Wilsongate: Motive, Means, and Opportunity: Posted on 11/21/2005
---
Anything in particular you're looking for?
Top of Page
Posted by: clarice | July 21, 2006 at 12:53 AM
At this rate, I will never catch
up on the reading. I worry how, when this thing breaks, the entire
story can be presented to the American public.
I cannot help but thinking how useful it would be if we had some
Hollywood biggee such as Bruce Willis or Mel Gibson to put this into a screenplay.
Just a quickie TV mini series would be terrific with casting to match the games the Left Coast has been playing with Cheney and Bush.
One thing is certain, the critics would be hypocrites when they complained about all the plots/subplots as they gave kudos to "Syriana".
Know that I'm dreaming. It is fine for anti-admin, anti iraq propaganda to spill into "Law and Order", "Boston Legal" et al.
We almost need an Oliver Stone.
:::laughing::::
Posted by: larwyn | July 21, 2006 at 02:23 AM
tops:
"I'm tempted to go get his book from the library again and see what he said..."
I've started to contemplate actually springing for a used copy, myself. Of course, I could buy a new one for $5.99, but I figure why not save a dollar, AND give the $4.09 it costs 2nd hand to someone other than Joe.
On whether or not Joe already had a trip in the works, I believe that was the case for the 1999 trip, not the 2002 trip and that some folks may be mistakenly conflating the two on that point.
Posted by: JM Hanes | July 21, 2006 at 02:52 AM
JMH
--On whether or not Joe already had a trip in the works, I believe that was the case for the 1999 trip, not the 2002 trip and that some folks may be mistakenly conflating the two on that point.--
I think the same.
--I've started to contemplate actually springing for a used copy, myself. --
ooohhh shoot...I wish you had the library down the street like me...can't imagine even 2 bucks!
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 21, 2006 at 03:00 AM
Mima Nedelcovych, Vice Preseident for International Operations, F. C. Schaffer and Associates, Inc traveled with Wilson, Alamoudi and others in Nov. 99, for a trade delegation. See Businessmen">http://www.africaintelligence.fr/LOI/archives/default_archives.asp%3Fnum%3D876%26year%3D&prev=/search%3Fq%3Deatic,1999%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN">Businessmen Introduced Well
This FEC Disclosure Report shows Nedelcovych gave Jefferson campaign donations in 01, 02, and 05.
F. C. Schaffer and Associates is a small Louisiana based sugar company but the curious thing is, the donations aren't from Schaffer, they're from AFRKA GLOBAL/PARTNER
Posted by: Rocco | July 21, 2006 at 07:13 AM
Someone here - TM, Clarice, should write a book.
Posted by: Jane | July 21, 2006 at 07:25 AM
Here's Joe from Fedora's 10/25/2004 article, conveniently linked for the less-informed of us by Clarice:
Is this whole thing really just about Israel to them? The more I read lately, the more ducks line up in that direction. Is Joe another leftist anti-semite?
Posted by: Extraneus | July 21, 2006 at 07:34 AM
Is Joe another leftist anti-semite?
A Francophile pro-Saddam, anti-war celebrity hound - ya think! Next thing you know, we'll see him boogying down with the Dancin' Duo of Cindy and Cynthia.
Posted by: Sara (The Squiggler) | July 21, 2006 at 08:30 AM
Check out the 990 tax information link in the EPIC ABOUT section also. Moveon, Tides, etc.
Then check out the 2002 link. Tom Warrick from the State Department. Scott Ritter and lots of arab organizations at the bottom including the Muslim American Society.
"Citing several cases, Bray pointed to that of Abdulrahman Alamoudi, calling his arrest on non-terrorism related charges of violating U.S. political sanctions imposed on Libya, a case of selective prosecution, pointing out that non-Muslim Americans who have maintained contacts and conducted business with Libya, if prosecuted, were prosecuted in under civil, not criminal law."
Posted by: Rocco | July 21, 2006 at 09:48 AM
Well, Hmmm. Jeez - ya just gotta LOVE them freepers huh?
Ultra Liar Joe Wilson says he never spoke (publicly) AGAINST the Iraq war in the 8 months that passed between his Niger '02 trip and the OpEd.
But he did hobnob with some very interesting folks didn't he? And how interesting the situation in Iraq/Israel/Lebanon today has a link to - Joe Wilson.
One: Abdulrahman Alamoudi ('99 Niger trip)
38. According to a Jerusalem Post article, dated June 22, 2001, Alamoudi participated in a Beirut Conference in January 2001 alongside leaders of Hamas , Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and al- Qaeda. A communique issued by the conference called for a boycott on American and Israeli products, stating: "America today is a second Israel.
"http://www.4law.co.il/Lea275z400.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1265645/posts
Joe's trip to Niger in '02 was most likely to cover his and the certain members of the CIA's tracks.
PS: Alamoudi was a campaign contributor to:
Cynthia McKinney - she of the Dancing Sheehan Brigade.
Posted by: Enlightened | July 21, 2006 at 01:36 PM
-- Is Joe another leftist anti-semite?--
You be the judge:
this is also interesting view of Wilson's, especially since Bolton is kicking ass and taking names.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 21, 2006 at 01:46 PM
"I guess it's time for him [Wolfowitz]to go destroy the World Bank and he's got a willing partner in John Bolton who has taken it upon himself to destroy the United Nations"
Finally, that pinhead Wilson is talking sense.
Posted by: Barney Frank | July 21, 2006 at 01:53 PM
tops:
"...the United Nations, an organization that, since its inception, the U.S. has benefitted from as much or more so than it has given."
ROTFLMAO! Maybe he knows where the American share of Oil-for-Food $$ ended up....
Posted by: JM Hanes | July 21, 2006 at 04:21 PM
Rocco:
Nice work on nailing down the Wilson > Jefferson tie-in! You consistently detail the most fascinating connections from a remarkable range of sources. Did someone stamp RESEARCH on your birth certificate?
Posted by: JM Hanes | July 21, 2006 at 04:32 PM
This thread will ont fall just short of 1000 comments. Isn't Pete around, or Leo?
Hello? is this thing on?
Posted by: Patrick | July 21, 2006 at 04:34 PM
I wrote an article on the connections and also thank ROcco who I credited in it. When it's up I'll post it.
Posted by: clarice | July 21, 2006 at 05:01 PM
Clarice, I found the link to the first article and added it earlier in this thread. The second link was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
Ah, I see the following in the second article:
"Motive: Introduction: A Tale of Two Stories
Novak’s article actually records two conflicting accounts of who initiated Wilson’s involvement in the CIA’s Niger investigation, one coming from two Bush administration sources (the first still unknown, the second now known to be Karl Rove) and one coming from a CIA source (now identified as CIA spokesman Bill Harlow, who presumably got his information from either written records or checking verbally with one of the CIA Counterproliferation Division [CPD] personnel handling Wilson’s trip):
Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.3
In Wilson’s book, his version of the story is closer to what Novak reports the CIA told him:
Apart from being the conduit of a message from a colleague in her office asking if I would be willing to have a conversation about Niger’s uranium industry, Valerie had had nothing to do with the matter. She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip. The suggestion that Valerie might have improperly influenced the decision to send me to Niger was easy to disprove.4
However, a Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) review of prewar intelligence on Iraq found evidence contradicting both Wilson’s version and what Novak was told by the CIA. The SSCI report mentions that the CIA had previously sent Wilson to Niger in 1999 “after his wife mentioned to her supervisors that her husband was planning a business trip to Niger in the near future and might be willing to use his contacts in the region”. In relation to Wilson’s 2002 trip to Niger, a CPD reports officer told Senate investigators that Wilson’s wife “offered up his name”. Consistent with this officer’s statement is a memo Valerie Plame sent the CPD’s Deputy Chief on February 12, 2002, the day before CPD sent a cable to a CIA overseas station requesting concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson to Niger. In the memo Plame says her husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.5
In response to criticisms arising from the SSCI’s findings, Wilson published an article in the Los Angeles Times defending himself:
In the last two weeks, since the Senate Intelligence Committee released its report on intelligence failures, the smear attacks have intensified. The primary new charge from the Republicans is that I lied when I said Valerie had nothing to do with my being assigned to go to Niger. That's important to the administration because there's a criminal investigation underway, and if she did play a role, divulging her CIA status may be defendable. In fact, though the Senate committee cites a CIA source saying Valerie had a role in the assignment, it ignores what the agency told Newsday reporters as early as July 2003, long before I ever acknowledged Valerie's CIA employment. "A senior intelligence officer," the reporters wrote, "confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger. "But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. 'They [the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story] were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising,' he said. 'There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason,' he said. 'I can't figure out what it could be.' " Last week, a CIA source repeated this to CNN and the Los Angeles Times.6"
Article followed this part with Wilson's post-testimony letter, which was also provided in a link earlier.
Joe Wilson lied so much that I tend to believe the Senate SSCI report over Wilson's words, both verbal and written.
Posted by: lurker | July 21, 2006 at 05:19 PM
Another of Rocco's post that might be interesting:
"
Take a look at the names in this Georgetown University, Edmund A Walsh School of Foreign Service newsletter.
Scroll to the third picture down and look for Rita Jupe,CNN, Yaser Abushaban, Rock Creek Corporation, etc
Keep scrolling and look for Charles Merimee, Banque Paribas.
Wasn't Aburdene involved in a previous banking scandal?"
The 990's referred to Erik Gustafson. Anyone know who he is? His office is off Penn street. Where is Joe's office?
Posted by: lurker | July 21, 2006 at 05:49 PM
I believe the Al-Alamoudi who gave him office space (Muhammed)left the country after a member of his family was convicted of aiding terrorists. I do not recall where Wilson now has offices. As for Aburdene ewcheck Fedora. I believe he had some info on that.
Posted by: clarice | July 21, 2006 at 05:55 PM
Aburdene
"Under Mohammed Alamoudi’s direction, Rock Creek was chaired by Elias Aburdene, an Arab-American international banking advisor and lobbyist who had previously advised banks linked to organized crime and intelligence community figures involved in the S&L Scam. In 2003 and 2004 Aburdene donated to the Sandhills Political Action Committee, which was affiliated with Senator Chuck Hagel, 13 a leading Republican critic of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy."
Posted by: lurker | July 21, 2006 at 06:17 PM
30 FOIAs submitted by Veterans for Common Sense, one of the major contributors to EPIC.
I see Siniora changing his position by blaming Hizbollah for this war.
Posted by: lurker | July 21, 2006 at 06:20 PM
OK, I went to the library.
I am going to make the same observations about his book I always do:
On the self of notable political types writing about notable things the only book that that carry's a picture of the books author **one the spine** is Mojo Jo Jo's and when I pull it out between the notable people writing about notable things it's really hard to ignore how mush larger this book is compared to the notable authors writing about worthy things.
It is 450 pages plus
26 pages of his own written news article,
Just to give you idea...I have Robert S. McNamara's "In Retrospect"
355 pages
John Dean's "Blind Ambition"
334 pages
Anyhoo...page 16 he writes:
So the plane passage makes me more confused because Wilson seems to say that he did a quick turn in Europe to Niger, but the timeline doesn’t seem to work…flew from the states Feb. 21 arrived in Niger the 26th. Either way there is something hanky here, because by his own words he stay the long time in Niger because of the flight schedule.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 21, 2006 at 10:08 PM
cathy :-)
Paribas was the Oil For Food program banker...Posted by: cathyf | July 21, 2006 at 10:11 PM
Hitchens has been consistently brilliant about Wilson.
cathyf, so many of those involved in Arabian business are involved in US university funding some days I think only our enemies are calling the shots(I.e. athe Arabic language departments) and the nutsos are teaching.
Posted by: clarice | July 21, 2006 at 10:36 PM
Howell Raines
"One audience member asked about the role of media leaks. Raines opted not to go in-depth since he no longer is a working journalist, but offered a bit of a leak of his own:
"Almost all leakers are lawyers. That's the bottom line.""
So...no wonder the Pres. made the call...OPR...
Posted by: topsecretk9 | July 21, 2006 at 11:12 PM
Don't remind me! I'm so behind on my piece on the DoJ*ugh*
Posted by: clarice | July 21, 2006 at 11:43 PM
Thanks for the kind words JM. I'm terrible at connecting dots so when I find something I think might be interesting, I throw it out there and hope that you people out here might make some sense of it. If you ever think I'm straying off course, please let me know because I trust the judgement of the smartest people on the internet....YOU! I can't say it enough, you people out here are my hero's and I just want to be a little part of a group who is going to get to the bottom of this treachery.
Posted by: Rocco | July 22, 2006 at 01:52 PM
Rocco, darling, the piece citing you is due to go online Monday. (Power outages prevented it going up today and we thought it would get more coverage on Monday, rather than the weekend.)
Posted by: clarice | July 22, 2006 at 01:58 PM
I'd follow you into battle clarice...you're the BEST!
Thanks
Posted by: Rocco | July 22, 2006 at 08:14 PM
Smooches back but I'm a nearsighted klutz..
Posted by: clarice | July 22, 2006 at 08:30 PM
1000th Comment!
Posted by: sbw | July 22, 2006 at 08:45 PM