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July 15, 2006



Taking a vote.Raise your hand if you prefer to be represented by the person who wrote this motion or the persons who represent Rove and Libby....Thank you for your participation.


***Complaint*Not Motion..



Thanks for the link, but the one I’m looking for is a different appearance.

This one was done with Wilson at a remote location, with Novak being interview in the studio. The one concerning being sent by the V.P. had Wilson at the table with Russert.

I’ll look through the site and try to find the right one.

Barney Frank

I found this comment by Mr. Wilson to be somehwat problematical for their case.....

"And I thought at one point of maybe hiring Mr. Novak as a publicity agent since every time he writes an article about me, it seems to enhances both my wife’s and my standing, but I’ve rejected that.'"

His mouth is his lawyer's worst nightmare.


"eftwing/moonbat sites or generally drool from both sides of their mouths."

That is so their keepers can tell when they are level.

Barney Frank

And just to be fair to Jeff, the reason his posts are so long is not because he's drooling. Its because by the time he is done adding all the caveats, split hairs and labyrinthine qualifications his posts are as long as a Tolstoy manuscript.


Question: why didn't the Wilsons sign the complaint?



I am in with the persons who represent Rove and Libby.

:Hand raised Waving while yelling Oh Oh Oh Mr. Kotter:


Here the VIPS claim "at the behest of Vice President Cheney's office," (note the date)

And here Kristof Blames Cheney. "the CIA had sent an envoy at the behest of the vice president's office to investigate,"


I think Jeff is mean. He told me that I was over my head in analyzing the case at emptywheel. Insecurity on his part my guess.

And he just wants it to be true soooo badly.

I tried to warn him that it's time to drop the Wilsons. Now that Fitz is done, and they've filed that silly civil suit, they are truly fair game. They'll be lucky to get a lecture gig at Berkeley when all is said and done.

I'm not saying I'm enjoying his pain at seeing Fitzmas going up in smoke, but I don't really have much sympathy either. It's kind of funny seeing him write all those thousands of words, trying to prove meaningless bits of minutia. Wilson never said Cheney sent him.

You can answere that with one word. So?

He didn't need to, the left wing blogsphere did it for him, and he never tried to set the record straight.

The Bushies always seem one step ahead.

No pay back for the stolen elections of 2000-2004, or for "lying" us into war.

Poor dears.


Lesley, I don't know. Is it possible we just saw the emailed version and their signatures will be on the original. Their signatures are required.


Clarice and Lesley, their lawyer signed the Complaint on their behalf. There is no requirement in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure or the Local Rules of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia that the plaintiffs in a civil action sign the Complaint. A civil complaint is a pleading containing allegations, not a sworn affidavit purporting to contain evidence. Their signatures on the Complaint are NOT required.


Well, at EPIC, Wilson also said it wasn't the CIA which sent him..it was "the government"..(LAwyers would pay for the chance to cross examine Joe.)


He told me that I was over my head in analyzing the case at emptywheel.

There's a big - although not always obvious - difference between pettifoggery and intelligence.



Stephen is correct.

If the Complaint had asked for temporary equitable relief, under Rule 65d, the facts would have to be supported either by a verified (sworn) complaint or sworn affidavit.

Otherwise, under Rule 11a, the Complaint must be signed only by an attorney.


Holy Moly.

The entire Middle East is about to become a burnt weenie sandwich, and this is the topic?

Good night, sweet prince.


You're right, Stephen.I seem to recall that we always had the clients sign as well, but for the life of me I can't remember why now.

Rick Ballard


Possibly in the hope that they'd bring a check with them when they came in to sign.


Beto Ochoa

"If a frog had side pockets, he'd carry a handgun."


Actually, it is because we almost always asked for equitable relief and vnjagvet explains it. (If you have the ability to qualify for it in D.C. it is about the only way to get relief in your lifetime and it substantially reduces the advantage to a deep pockets client who will eat up a fortune in discovery games.)


***deep pocket OPPONENT**)


I think I must have missed this, but if one is able to parley a slight by a government official into rock-star status and a 10-100x increase in one's 1040, assuming it's provable that said slight is the reason for said increase in livelihood, is it still possible to sue for damages?


Yeah Semanticleo, and while we're on the brink of a global war, our duly elected VP has to worry about a bleach blond, gold digging, armani draped, Vanity fair profiled washed-up pencil pusher, her ego-maniac husband and all the anti-war moonbats.

Why don't you be a patriot-- e-mail the Wilsons and tell them to go away.

Rick Ballard


The actual question should be: "Would the Iranians dare attempt this if they did not have objectively pro-Islamofascist allies speaking loudly within the US."

The appearance of division gives hope to these murderers each and every day.


Not all the Middle East Cement,just the Iranian,Syria,Hezbollah and Hamas bits,best ring home whilst you can.

Tom Maguire

From Jeff:

Just so I understand clearly, your suggestion is that the language of Wilson going at Cheney's behest, which Kristof used for short even though it failed to capture the substance of the story he himself wrote, was suggested to Kristof by Wilson, and that the best explanation for others using the same language was that WIlson was likewise whispering it in their ears?

I don't know if it is the "best" explanation - maybe anti-Admin animus led these reporters to hear what they wanted to hear - but let me toos in two more data points:

(1) Wilson explaining that Kristof. Pincus, and Judis/Ackerman *all* misquoted/misattributed him when they said that he debunked the forgeries.

(2) Wilson with Katie Couric circa July 17, 2003. Two observations:

(a) Wilson repeatedly overstates and backpedals about who sent him;

(b) Wilson blamed the revenge leak on "the Administration"; Katie restates that as "White House" repeatedly, and he does not correct her. Is is (partly) his fault if a viewer comes away with the idea that the White House was behind the leaks?


...I felt it was important to ensure that--that everybody understand that this was a--senior levels of the government that had asked me to--that had asked for the information that had led to my going out there.


And, secondly, I went out there at the request of the--of the government...

Why didn't he say "request of the CIA"? Seems simple and accurate.

Anyway, misunderstandings seem to follow this guy around. Is he a liar, is his audience projecting their own fantasies onto his words, does he fail to correct people's bad guesses? Beats me.


BTW Larry Johnso has just dropped a big one.No wonder he got thrown out of the CIA for being a gimp.


I don't care how great an attorney one is you can't make a purse out of a sows ear.

Posted by: ordi | July 15, 2006 at 02:43 PM

Dear ordi,
You omitted SILK. One can make
a pig's skin purse out of sows ear. But Wilsons' are fashioning from the stern end of said sow. They seem to have no use of their own ears, rather they make me think of sausage casings.
(Hope you've all finished supper!)

All who feel need to remind the JOMers of the current events in the MidEast just don't want to read the excellent work you are doing on their "rock stars".

I very much appreciate coming back here after following latest breaking news and opinion on the the MidEast war and the SC meeting at the UN. Praying for Israel successes and then humming "Ms American Pie". A very strange day

Barney Frank


"Wilson repeatedly overstates and backpedals about who sent him;"

There seems to me to be a somewhat neglected question concerning the legal or regulatory propriety of Val even suggesting her husband for the Niger trip. Most of the questions just seem to revolve around whether it was from OVP or CIA, not whether she might be on the hotseat for it. If it was improper or illegal it certainly answers a lot of questions about why he doth protest too much, especially his early protestations that she had NOTHING to do with it. He certainly acts like she's got her rear in a sling, should anyone pursue it.

Seven Machosx

It is interesting that you keep arguing about legal tactics and terminology, and generally the things that go on procedurally in court. You don't seem to address the substantive issues underlying this case.

That's probably because the Plaintiffs' actual case -- the thing itself -- is hollow.

Seven Machos

That's Seven Machos and I am talking to Stephen.


It is interesting that you keep arguing about legal tactics and terminology, and generally the things that go on procedurally in court.

Well, to be fair, that was the topic on the table. The procedural issues and not the substantive ones.

He can defend himself, I'm quite sure; but as I followed the thread the issue did get into the tall legalistic grass.

And it can get pretty high and thick in there, no?




Just got through reading that.

What an imbecile.

How do you not know,as an intelligence "expert" that the country that is at the centre of international conflict,Isreal,has universal conscription?

He's scary-stupid.


Frightening,indeed the man started at the top and worked his way down,but rose in his self esteem.
It would be intersting to see some of the analysis he did for the CIA,"No Nukes here,definitely no Nukes".
What is this VIPERs he belongs to,a self help recovery group?


Seven, unlike you, I don't have a horse in this race. I am not a Wilson/Plame supporter. I am not affiliated with any political party. I do not consider myself a liberal or a conservative. I do not claim to have knowledge concerning what actual evidence Wilson and Plame may or may not ultimately be able to produce to support the allegations of their Complaint. I don't actually care that much about the politics involved in the lawsuit, or the tortured history of Wilson and Plame or their motivations or integrity or lack thereof, or whether the Vice President's office had anything to do with asking the CIA to investigate stories of Iraq looking to buy uranium in Africa, or what Wilson learned or did not learn in Africa, or what Wilson did or did not report back to the CIA, etc.

All I have done is to look at the Complaint filed by Wilson and Plame and try to examine it in same light the Court will look at it when the Defendants present a Motion to Dismiss the Complaint under Rule 12(b)(6). At that stage in the proceedings, the Court does not determine whether or not the allegations of the Complaint are actually true or whether there is any evidence to support the allegations. The Court does not even consider what affirmative defenses or counterclaims might be available to the defendants.
In that context, the Court will ask, assuming all the allegations in the Complaint to be true, does the Complaint state a claim upon which relief can be granted?

The knee-jerk reaction from the right side of the blogosphere seems to be that the lawsuit will be immediately and summarily thrown out of court. I believe there are some good reasons to discount that notion.


Peter UK

Such is the left,hostage to their talking points.

Barney Frank

"The knee-jerk reaction from the right side of the blogosphere seems to be that the lawsuit will be immediately and summarily thrown out of court."

True of some and not of others.

Other Tom

I'm watching what is happening in Iraq, Israel, Gaza and Lebanon right now, and I'm starting to feel a sense of shame for giving these vainglorious popinjays a single moment's attention. I will give them no more. Shame, shame on both of them.



Your correct, I did forget to add "silk". Thanks for the correction. I agree about the stern end of said sow. LOL


Barney Frank

True of some and not of others.

I would say a majority of us would like it to at least limp into the Discovery phase.

Joe Wilson under oath has so much potential.


How will not talking about Val and Joe help the situation in the ME? That's like "eat your supper, people are starving in ...."

To each his own, I guess.

Go Israel!


Stephen v.:

I don't think you found that opinion on this thread. Conley v. Gibson is a tough hurdle to jump for winning a 12b6 motion. And many a win at the District Court level is reversed. Normally, a 12b6 may clear out some underbrush, but rarely is a knockout. The lawyers here (at least) don't disagree with that so far as I have read.

Same with the Althouse thread in which you have participated.

But most of the commentators here at least see this suit for what it is -- a political statement, not a legal one.


I just hope shy Val (of "they endangered our national security") ate her pancakes with Kristof and her barbeque with Pincus. Then possibly sipped tea with the debunkers (ah, make that debriefers).

Regardless of Joe building firewalls....why didn't Fitz indict her?


Watching all this gallimaufry in his bunker in Tehran President Ahmasmadasahatter must be laughingself sick,how much of the Democrats tying down the Administration has emboldened Iran to up the stakes..and all for a couple of second rate chancers.

Seven Machos

I think one of the issues here is that non-spies don't really understand what classification and cover are. I don't claim to understand them, either, but I would suggest that it is up to the keepers of the classified information and the people under "cover" to keep the information secret.

I suggest that Plaintiffs must have done everything reasonable to keep the information secret AND that high-level people in the Executive branch nevertheless gave out the information wrongly.

Plaintiffs can show neither.

Captain Jack

There is a war between Good and Evil going on in the Middle East, and you all are talking about two fu*king morons. Who cares?

Boy, did Joe and Val pick a bad time to press their bogus case.


Wilson appeared on an anti-Bush symposium which was aired on CSpan during the summer of 2003...after he outed himself. During this conference he heavily implied that the Administration sent him to Niger and when he came back he reported that there was nothing to the story.

But when someone from the audience asked him "When the White House read your Niger after-action report, what was their reaction?" he responded that he had not written any report.

I don't recall if this particular symposium was before or after Novak's article, but in any case I was already suspicious of Wilson and thus was paying close attention to his on-air appearances.

His answer set off bells for me because if HE didn't write a report, then who did? Answer: the CIA case officer who sent him to Niger.

The people in the audience were certainly given the impression by Wilson that he was something akin to a "special envoy" sent to Niger by the WH to figure out this question...which was precisely why the question was asked the way it was...

I'll see if I can research CSpan's video archives here in DC...


>I suggest that Plaintiffs must have done everything reasonable to keep the information secret AND that high-level people in the Executive branch nevertheless gave out the information wrongly.

>Plaintiffs can show neither.

And that is the pesky little fact that has got everyone here all atwitter.


I am cracking up at your posts tonight.
"drooling out of both sides of their mouths"
And the Welcome Back Kotter reference-priceless.
I bet Joe Wilson started his life out as a sweat-hog.


Florence, when 'cleo says, The entire Middle East is about to become a burnt weenie sandwich, and this is the topic? he epitomizes the problem facing society. Both the Middle East and Wilson are about how people fail to respond wisely to what is said and what is done.

Too many people think society can tolerate misbehavior just as easily as it tolerates gossip columns in grocery checkout publications. I admired gossip columnist Liz Smith, after 9/11, when she said, "gossip is a luxury we can no longer afford."

Look at Wilson's lies. Look at the posturing at the United Nations. Where is the outrage? 'Cleo shows no outrage against Wilson/Plame. If he showed a principled consistency he might become a solid contributor here.

If you heap outrage on Wilson's misbehavior there is still a full stock left to heap on Hamas and Hezbollah, with enough left over should Israel or our government misstep.

Barney Frank

You mean a sweet-mint-tea-hog don't you maryrose? :)


I would suggest that anyone who feels guilty Ignoring the I.D.F offensive get the Wilson stuff out of their system now.

It takes roughly six days for Israel to fully mobilize,we are at about day 4-5,so this is going to heat up real fast,real soon.


I have been racking my brain to try and figure out why the Plames would do this. Val has post partum depression and is accomodated by the CIA. She was kept on so she could get her pension. By revealing info to Joe and sending him on this mission I am certain she violated CIA protocol and their rules. She is given a pass on this and then proceeds to bite the government hand that has been feeding her for the past 20 years. Has she no shame or sense of dignity? I am hard-pressed to determine if Joe put her up to this or is she a perpetual victim? The best explanation I've seen in the last 2 days is the Narcissistic Personality Disorder theory. It seems to fit them both to a tee. I watched that news conference-they both truly believe they are the injured parties in all this. How can they sleep at night knowing they have cost someone his job and livelihood while they are sitting pretty in a convertible incognito in a Vanity Fair spread.? Their sense of entitlement and "to the manor born" is truly ludicrous.


Barney Frank;
Sooey, a hog by any other name would still be groveling around in the dirt and would definitely not smell sweet. Both need to go back on their meds. For Joe I'm guessing-mid-life crisis he's already got the trophy wife -now he just needs to take a few scalps.


non-spies don't really understand what classification and cover are

Any bona fide know-it-all can explain the basics. Technically they may derive from information theory and cryptography, where I learned them many (many) moons ago. I suspect they haven't changed much since they were written directly into the IIPA relative to blowing cover.

Secret; Hidden; Protected.

Secret: None of your liberal friends know you like to listen to Rush Limbaugh during your lunch hour.

Hidden: Because you only listen on your walkman radio with headphones.

Protected: When lunch hour is over you lock the walkman in your desk so nobody can figure out what radio station you listen to.


"Look at the posturing at the United Nations...
Where is the outrage?"

Whatever happened to the concept of irony?


ris, Another drink on me..anything you want.



Christopher Fotos

Here's a CNN interview with Wilson saying Well, I went in actually in February of 2002 was my most recent trip there, at the request I was told of the office of the vice president, which had seen a report in intelligence channels about this purported memorandum of agreement on uranium sales from Niger to Iraq.

And here's a Talking Points Memo interview with Wilson (pdf!)

TPM: And you're going on your understanding of basically how the U.S. government and the
nexus of the intelligence community and the executive branch works, and that tells you that since Cheney was the one who asked for the report, the report would have come back to him in some fashion or another.
WILSON: That's correct.
TPM: He may well not have known that you--
WILSON: He wouldn't have known. He would not have known that it was me....

Whether this has anything to do with what you guys are trying to figure out, I have no idea, and this beer here says I won't for awhile.

If I'm reading it correctly, the TPM interview was on Sept. 16 2003.

Christopher Fotos

And Maid Marion, the same Talking Points Memo (PDF!) interview with Wilson has the following exchange:

WILSON:...Within an hour of my setting down at Dulles, I was having Chinese food with the reports officer of the CIA, and I was giving him an oral briefing. I did not--I brought back notes, I did not bring back a complete report, because at the end of the day, reports officers are paid to turn briefings such as the one I'm giving you into something that's comprehensible for their particular consumer. That is the way it is done. That is the way it's always done. It also was done within an hour of my arriving back in Washington, DC, because I was leaving, actually, on a business trip the next day, and I did not have all my life to devote to this pro-bono activity.
TPM: From that point on, your firsthand knowledge of sort of where this channeled up
through the ranks ends, if I understand right--
WILSON: That's true-

And similarly to my previous post, I have no freakin' idea if this has anything to do with your issue. Why? Three simple words: India Pale Ale.


Cleo: Whatever happened to the concept of irony?

Trampled by detachment.



Happy to hear I brightened your evening. :)


"I watched that news conference-they both truly believe they are the injured parties in all this. How can they sleep at night knowing they have cost someone his job and livelihood while they are sitting pretty in a convertible incognito in a Vanity Fair spread.? Their sense of entitlement and "to the manor born" is truly ludicrous."

I watched a clip of their press conference, and my "body language" alarms went off. Eyes a little too wide, lips too pursed, she reminded me of Shirley Temple right before the fake tears started flowing. I think she was lying. And let's face it, wasn't she trained on our dime to do just that?

And I've always thought that she was the brains in the family.


CF, thanks for your research..


Shirley Temple. That little pout. Now everytime I see Joe and Val I'll think of the Good Ship Lollipop.

vener's image will stick until this thing is over.



OMG, that was so funny! I just love PROUDLY telling my Dem family members I listen to him. Their facial expressions are priceless!


The Good Ship Lollipop is known to have "suckers" at the helm!

Val and Joe AKA Mr and Mrs Good Ship Lollipop!

Bruce Hayden

While I agree that the 5th Amdt. does have some Equal Protection incorporated via Due Process, it is not complete, and I am not sure that this would qualify there. The Federal govt. routinely passes laws and institutes regulations that would clearly fail Strict Scrutiny if passed by a state. And, heck, this would only be a rational basis test if Equal Protection applied in the first place. Of course, retaliation would not suffice for rational basis, but rebuttal would. That doesn't help with 12(b)(6), but would for a summary judgement.

Even if you buy that the 5th Amdt. supports claims 1-5, which I don't, most of them fail on their face. The big thing missing is causation. The complaint alleges that Rove and, in particular, Libby, told a number of reporters about Plame's CIA affiliation. But whatever damage occurred was due to the Novak article, and they make no effort to tie that to any of the defendants. I made the analogy the other day, where A shoots at X a couple of times and misses. B shoots in the vicinty of X, but hits him. So, without showing any connection between A and B, X sues A for being hit by B. And because of this, I find it incredulous that they could be asserting that the defendants' actions were the proximate cause of her alleged injuries.

Besides, I find in incredulous that they could be asserting that the Executive can't disclose the employment of one of its employees, and that employee has some sort of privacy interest in her employment. Property interest, maybe, but privacy interest? I seriously doubt it.

Bruce Hayden


The problem here is that the Wilsons have fairly carefully plead the case to try to stay out of the FTCA by, most importantly, claimed that the basis of the defendants' actions was animus. The problem though is that by all indications, while that may have had some impact, the primary reason for their actions was rebuttal. The difference, as I see it, is that animus might keep it out of the FTCA, and keep the defendants from successfully asserting immunity, rebuttal would almost assuredly not.

I am not sure how things would work out if the Wilsons could prove that animus played a part. My guess is that as long as rebuttal was significant, even if not the primary reason, then FTCA and immunity will apply. And that will, of course, kill the suit.

But, as has been noted above, at least some of the claims are likely to survive a 12(b)(6) motion based solely on the Wilsons' claims that the actions were caused by animus. With a neutral or sympathetic judge though, I don't think most will though, because of the causation issue I mentioned in the previous post.


The Wilsons are not going to enjoy their metamorphosis from victims to deponents.

Other Tom

"How will not talking about Val and Joe help the situation in the ME?"

Great Scott, can anyone possibly be this stupid? Did I imply in any way that it would help the situation? If I had resolved not to dance the boog-a-loo at the funeral of Martin Luther King, Jr., would you have protested that not dancing the boog-a-loo would not bring back Dr. King?

Pull your head out of your ass.


Dont know if this is reported in another thread, thought I would toss it out for grins. From Fox, Novak's reponse to viewer questions:

Can you explain the incident involving Mr. Wilson’s "friend" that happened to run into you on the street. What did you and him discuss? What is your impression of the situation? I appreciate the way you have handled yourself through this whole ordeal. You are a true journalist! — JUDY

ROBERT NOVAK: I foolishly answered questions about the case by a stranger who stopped me on the streets of Washington. He turned out to be a friend of Wilson who immediately went to Wilson's office to report after our conversation. Some people think this was set up by Wilson, but I have no evidence of this. Thanks for the compliment.


Thanks to all for responding to my question about the Wilson signatures/complaint.


What impact would Wilson's op-ed have had if he wrote:

I was sent by the CIA on a fact-finding trip to determine if there was any possibility that Saddam could obtain yellowcake from Niger. My investigation showed it was highly unlikely because of [such-and-such] and I reported that back to the CIA.

None. It wouldn't even have been printed.

Most anything beyond the above was 'literary flair'. Wilson added allleged facts he was in no position to know (such as who saw his report), omitted details that supported the administration's position (such as the '99 meeting with an Iraqi trade delegation), conflated 'sought' with 'bought' and 'Africa' with 'Niger' to bring in and discredit Bush and the SOTU, as well as to posit yellowcake as a major justification for the war.

In order for his piece to have real political zing it was necessary to give the impression that the administration had ignored evidence presented directly to them and to suggest that the administration relied on forgeries which he himself had debunked.

These latter two he presented through proxies in articles prior to his own op-ed, thus giving him plausible deniability for those statements.

This is truly masterful propaganda. Very impressive.


And American politics took it from there. The chattering classes see what they want (which is why propaganda works) and subtly shift word meanings, use bait and switch, and jump to conclusions not supported.

All Wilson had to do now was sit back and watch it happen.

Bush lied us into war.

Mission Accomplished.

I think someone on camera should compliment Wilson for his masterful propaganda.

Wilson would puff up and agree.



It'll blow your cover!

slogan for the new

Valerie Plame Hot Sauce

Reported by Jeannie(?)Most on

Only caught tail end of Most's report so wondering if they are also selling Joe's Purple ties.
Per Newsbuster report Brian Williams has worn one 2 days in row.

Marketing "Val-Jo" products to raise $$$$ for future court transcripts????


It is
Valerie FLAME Hot Sauce

5:30am here

Sara (The Squiggler)

I agree that this civil case is trivial compared to what very well may be the advent of WWIII. That said, I am quite capable of multi-tasking and watching/listening to cable news with their Alerts and reading/responding to comments here. Not being a military expert, a foreign policy wonk or having any diplomatic skills, there is not much I can offer to the Middle East situation at this time. I have posted a blog post on the subject which contains a link to Crisis in the Middle East: Local Bloggers Report which is a central location to find those blogging from Israel, Lebanon and Palestine with a "boots on the ground" view of the crisis that I'm sure is far more informative than anything I could contribute to. I encourage everyone to check out some of these blogs and to stay current with the news. I support Israel in case you were wondering.

As to Plame/Wilson, it isn't this case that is important, but their associations with others, including Ray McGovern and the rogue group out of the CIA who have been leaking like a sieve and undermining our country in the process. If talking Plame/Wilson to the death helps everyone get a clearer picture of the real danger of rogue cabal, then this exercise is no longer frivolous. Let's not forget that a Congressman has publicly stated that he believes Plame/Wilson to be a set up and that this cabal exists. As Chairman of the House Select Committee on Intelligence, I suspect he knows a whole lot more than any of us do, from either side of the issue.


Label has picture of Plame.



Stated very well for all those so concerned that the posters at JOM are not capable of following multiple issues/events.
They are intimating that this is similar to following the antics of J-lo or Paris Hilton and quite shallow. But you are absolutely correct in the importance of covering each aspect of this affair.
May Rove countersue and begin depos of Val-Joe ASAP! Recall I have prayed for Libby to go to trial since he was indicted. Now, perhaps we have been handed another route to exposing the entire ugly plots and all the players including John F Kerry!
I can dream and I do pray for that as I am praying for Israel's success in cleaning out the other
viper's nests.
Hard to turn off tonight after the missile hits on Haifa. The CNN reporter in Haifa kept saying that the hit at the rail station was meant for the refinery. He said "we are figuring that it is only one kilometer away.....that's what we've figured here....only missed by about a kilometer..."
This was on the CNN Intl broadcast.
He only neglected to give the direction - then CNN went back to Larry King rerun. What fools!

Sara (The Squiggler)

Larwyn!!!!!!!!!!!! Welcome back!

Next commercial break he'll probably have figured out how to give the GPS coordinates too. What a jerk!


I still think it's more than just politics. An attempt to bring down a sitting president during a war just to get a democrat elected doesn't seem a likely motive...to me anyway.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye and here's some wild speculation...

Several reasons combined to deflate the price of yellowcake beginning with a nuclear mishap at Three Mile Island, the collapse of Russia, and the privatisation of government uranium enrichment programs during the Clinton administration.

What's a country like Niger to do when it's only source of income is yellowcake? Countries under the watchful eyes of the IAEA could of course buy yellowcake at a decent price. But if you were a country like Niger and you couldn't make any money selling yellowcake legally, would you consider selling yellowcake illegally to rogue countries at a better price?

The SSCI refers to a flooded mine but as of 1999, the two mines in Niger were operational according to this.

Wilson claims his first trip to Niger in 99 was to restore democracy. Maybe he was sent to restore something else?


Thank you Sara.


Well RH, I tell ya...The Plame/Wilson saga is related to the GWOT. The GWOT is a response to a crazed religion that has a couple of reaons for existence. First, kill every fucking single jew in existence, and anybody else that doesn't believe like their particular sect does...at that moment. Next they want to kill every single other person in the world that doesn't believe what their particular blood sucking sect believes at that moment. But the main goal is of course Israel. Got to kill those fucking jews. Plastered over the New York Times are editorials condeming Israel for their correct and effective response to the latest crazed animalistic religious animals from islam. And 85% of our fellow jewish citizens will vote for democrats in the next elections. The party (Of Joe Wilson/Valerie Plame/Hillary Clinton) that oozes their anti-semitism in their WORKS and DEEDS. That's what the fuck I'm talking about, get it?


While Sara did a good job explaining the importance of the Val / Joe Pony Show, perhaps one reason for the leftwing intimidation is because they know that this Val and Joe Pony Show doesn't give them any "Deep Throat" ammunition any more and that it is a losing case. They don't want to admit that they are wrong on the Val and Joe Pony Show.


>The big thing missing is causation.


Thank you! Even when I first read the complaint I knew something was missing but when I tried to revisit it last night (after drinking wine in the sun all day) I just couldn't put my finger on it. I'm embarrassed by that, but you have nailed it.


Ah, so this will raise Patterico's blood pressure even more!

Wrong Enemy

Another reason for unsubscription.


Now we're just learning what Operation Blessed July was.

Additional translation of the Project Harmony:

Addam - Osama Connection

Project Harmony is showing more and more reasons why Saddam was a dangerous threat to the world and that Saddam had WMDs and had the intent of initiating WMD programs once those sanctions were lifted. Saddam was working hard with France, Germany, and Russia to get those sanctions lifted so that he can start his WMD programs.

These need to be bookmarked to disprove the naysayers of this war. Every time the naysayers say the "Bush lied" meme, show them these documents.


Get Real on Gasoline Prices

For those blaming Bush for the rising gas prices, blame it on Congress. Why? For starters, the ban on the offshore drilling platforms along the US coasts. And two, the failure of passing the ANWR bill. 3) Not enough refineries. 4) Not many new refineries being built. 5) Katrina knocked a significant existing platforms with about 1/3 recently back into opoerations and the other 1/3 that never will be back into operations. 6) The BP refinery in Texas City went back online just a few months ago.

The peak of this year's hurricane season is just around the corner.

Rick Ballard

I'll add my thanks to Jane's, Bruce. Having seen floor covering contractors impleaded (thank you, Jane) in construction defect suits concerning roof leaks I know that anyone within sight of a tort can wind up defending themselves - but first the roof has to leak. I realize that Joe and Val's Excellent Fantasy Suit isn't exactly a tort but I can't see how they get past Joe's actions being the precipitating event.


So, here is a related question to the law suit.

Since statements from Fitz's presser have been used to support the civil allagation, does this now open Fitz up to legal jepardy on the civil side as well?

If it can be shown that he went beyond the bounds of DoJ conduct lines with the presser (which it appears he did) and that has now resulted in harm to Libby (the filing of this civil suit) can Libby now file a civil suit against Fitz?

At the least, can Libby depose Fitz to discover the facts about the basic claims of the Wilson's suit to challenge the validity of the case being made against him (Libby)?

I'v had the feeling for a while that the only way to reign in Special Prosecutors was to leave them open to civil claims if they became overzelous (ie, go beyond DoJ guidlines of conduct or deliberately decieve the court) in their prosecution.


>does this now open Fitz up to legal jepardy on the civil side as well?

Not in any real life way. You might be able to sell the argument intellectually, but as a practical matter it's just another reason to never again appoint a special prosecutor.



The TPM article you reference came much later than the symposium I watched. By September Wilson was having to set a few things straight.

Plus, during the symposium I watched Mr. Wilson made no attempt to be clear on who sent him...the word "CIA" did not come up. He had the perfect opportunity when posed the question about the after-action report, especially since the audience was confused at how NO report could have been written.

After-action reports are part of the gig...yet he didn't have to write one?!

Rick Ballard


I was hoping that I would hear that the defendant's immunity in performance of their duties was going to provide the basis for the Wilson's suit being laughed out of court. Apparently, the "living constitution" crowd have moved the goal posts a bit again so elected and appointed officials get to defend themselves for doing their jobs. I have no idea whether Libby might have a cause of action against Fitz but I would hope that he would not take any action unless the DoJ first completes administrative review and discipline (if judged necessary).

Opening elected and appointed officials to continuous 'harassment by lawyer' is a good way of guaranteeing that only the dumb and truly venal would ever agree to serve. I think that Fitz has crossed the line a number of time's and I think that Comey's letter of appointment might provide a crack in immunity but I can't make myself wish that Libby would take advantage of it.


Like that Valerie Flame Hot Sauce idea.



Joe Wilson manhandled history. The consequences can't be overstated.


from Joe Wilson's current online biography at the Greater Talent Network:
Wilson is now at the center of a major political maelstrom involving the White House, the C.I.A. and the second gulf war in Iraq. In 2002, at the request of Vice President Dick Cheney, Wilson was assigned by the C.I.A. to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein was seeking to acquire uranium from Niger for the purpose of advancing his nuclear program. When his investigation turned up nothing, Wilson reported back to officials in Washington that there was no basis for the claims.

That's some pretty fancy phrasing there. Hardly distancing himself, even at this late stage, from the idea that Cheney requested this trip and possibly even him.

Although this has been brought up before, and as JMH said, it will be parsed or ignored and claims like Jeff's will be posted again tomorrow.


from Joe Wilson's current online biography at the Greater Talent Network:
Wilson is now at the center of a major political maelstrom involving the White House, the C.I.A. and the second gulf war in Iraq. In 2002, at the request of Vice President Dick Cheney, Wilson was assigned by the C.I.A. to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein was seeking to acquire uranium from Niger for the purpose of advancing his nuclear program. When his investigation turned up nothing, Wilson reported back to officials in Washington that there was no basis for the claims.

That's some pretty fancy phrasing there. Hardly distancing himself, even at this late stage, from the idea that Cheney requested this trip and possibly even him.

Although this has been brought up before, and as JMH said, it will be parsed or ignored and claims like Jeff's will be posted again tomorrow.


Better make a screenshot of it so that it can be linked over and over.


"Everyone was asking, so the CIA decided to answer, and gosh - nothing about the OVP requesting an investigation." -- Tom Maguire

And just how was the CIA going to provide answers without performing an investigation, Tom????? Before answering, you might want to think for more than Just One Minute.

Master Obvious

^- weak attempt at humor.

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