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August 06, 2006

Comments

Semanticleo

Just war, poorly executed, is the VERY best thing anyone who signs on to all WH reasons why we went to Iraq, can say about that catastrophic FUBAR.

Who cares if Rummy said it? He is the Chief Architect and Primary Apologist for all the idiots who populate this administration. His opinion on matters of substance have been perpetually denuded of any possibiilty they might have worth.

noah

There is no way that Iraq is going to turn out as we have hoped because WE have never controlled its destiny. Asking for help from regional governments or the UN or Europe is a Kerry fantasy.

Which is why I agree with the destestable Hegel that we should not put American forces in between warring parties in an Iraqi civil war.

We should continue to offer assistance to the Iraqi army. We should continue military ops against insurgent elements. But otherwise we should stay out of the sectarian conflict.

But leave Iraq absent a request from the elected Iraq government...that would be a monumental blunder.

Bill in AZ

NYT hammers everyone else about how bad the war is, no way out, etc, etc, yet not one mention of their own huge ownership of creating the situation over there by their 24x7 terrorist enabling propaganda - including this particular article.

Terrye

What a bunch of know it all hypocrites. These people have done nothing but cheerlead for failure in Iraq from the word go. Talk about divisive.

The Coalition is bringing in more troops to Baghdad. I don't know if this will help, but then again the constant chatter from the left and people like the guy who wrote this editorial have made the war in Iraq about politics more than about strategy from the day we started this thing. Now they bitch about the effect of politics on war. sheesh.

To be honest if the Americans after WW2 had faced this kind of pressure at home to bug out of Europe or stabilize Europe right this minute.... I doubt if we would have stayed there long enough to even implement the Marshall Plan. If the grounds on which we decided whether or not bringing democracy to Japan was based on whether or not they liked us I can't imagine we would have even tried. In fact it took a decade to create a stable goverment in Japan and if the press and the political opposition had been egging the Japanese to attack American troops because our occupation was imperialistic or some such nonsense, it might not have happened at all. The truth is the enemy knew it was whipped back then, today the likes of the NYT and Murtha and Sheehan etc, keep giving our enemy hope. That kind of constant backbiting and second guessing does not explain all the violence, but it does not help either.

Terrye

BTW, it seems that the idiots who run Lebanon have rejected the UN resolution because it actually requires that those innocent victims in Hezbellah be disarmed. Well, so much for moral high ground. As if they ever had it anyway.

Patton

Can someone point to a war BETTER executed?

What are your metrics?

If you hadn't noticed, in a war, people die, things get blown up, the enemy acts as well as reacts.

I am beginning to think people believe we should act as a dictatorship like the USSR or Saddam Hussein. That we should just go around killing everyone that wants to protest, etc.

Get over yourselves. You need to stop thinking we are going to create a utopia.

The Shiites were beaten, tortured and killed by the millions for 30 years by Hussein and the Sunnis. That's not going to change over night.

And people can chant against us in the streets all they want, just don't pick up a gun, hijack an airplane or build a nuke and we won't have to kick your a--.

There are all kind of problems in every country that gets liberated, there are Al Queda terrorists, there are former Baathists, there are family disputes etc. and its not all going to stop because we as a free people are not going to use the tactics necessary to stop it all.

It no different then the fact we have thousands of murders in this country and we balance that against the ammount of police/security we have to gaurantee our freedom.

If I reported to you how many people were murdered, wounded, died in this country you would think it is a guge war zone.

The important thing to the US is that you no longer have a government with the powers of a state as a sworn enemy, supporter and exporting terrorism.

noah

Terrye, I think it is a bit much to expect the Lebanese government to tilt toward Israel at this particular moment since the Lebanese public is on the side of HzB at the moment and since the government is powerless to set the terms of any peaceful resolution anyway. As long as the HzB remain armed anyone who advocates their disarmament is asking for their own murder.

Semanticleo

"You need to stop thinking we are going to create a utopia."

What are your metrics for utopia?

Terrye

noah:

I don't expect them to tilt toward Israel, but I also do not expect them to reject out of a hand a resolution that the French [for Chrissake] helped to write which might actually help the government of Lebanon to regain control of their borders and sovereignty. Assuming they want to.

Terrye

Patton:

The crowd in London cheering for Hezbellah was as large as the one in Baghdad. That was Sadr's base out there and they can be expected to show some solidarity with the Shia in southern Lebanon. Sadr is living off his family's name and background. He is a troublemaker and a coward and I hope his days are numbered.

I guess we could do what Saddam would have done under similar circumstances and sent in helicopter gunships to mow down the demonstrators. Maybe we could talk CNN into not reporting it.

noah

Yes Terrye but according to the text and brief analysis at Powerline the proposed resolution if fully implemented would result in the disarmament of HzB. Openly supporting the resolution would be suicidal.

clarice

I'm waiting to see how Pinch handles the certain to be announced war between the Class A and Class B stockholders of his tanking ship of flab.

Terrye

What is utopia?

Well I remember a decade ago when the left was saying that a hundred thousand children were dying in Iraq every year.

I can remember the environmentalists whining that Saddam was ruining not only the marshes in Iraq but the entire ecosystem.

I can remember the Human Rights groups complaining that the world did nothing while Saddam ran rape rooms and torture chambers and put people in mass graves in the hundreds of thousands.

I can remember seeing Saddam use the Oil for Food program for his personal slush fund while his people suffered and died the left and the UN and Europe whined.

I can remember when Saddam gunned down his own sons in law for tattling about his weapons programs.

I can remember when Saddam tried to kill a president of the US knowing full well what kind of wrath that could bring down on his hapless people.

I can remember stories about Uday raping and killing school girls and his inventive and creative uses of midieval torture devices such as the Iron Maiden.

I can remember Bill Clinton saying that the removal of Saddam Hussein from power was our national policy.

I can remember Hans Blix saying there had to be a presumption of the existence of chemical weapons in Iraq because Saddam had steadfastly refused to comply.

I can remember all these things and somehow I don't think they represent utopia.

Terrye

noah:

Suicidal? And not supporting is what? This is called a rock and a hard place. And Lebanon should have thought about that long ago.

noah

Terrye, "not supporting" is called smart politics. Since the Lebanese don't have a vote on the Security Council (I don't think and in any case do not have a veto) the best course for the government and Lebanon as a whole is to "reluctantly" comply if the resolution is finally adopted.

"Politics be damned" will get you dead in that part of the world.

Here I'm safe to shoot my mouth off anonymously...without fear that a crazed moonbat will shoot me.

larwyn

BREAKING
Iran threatens to cut off oil

Will Chevaz follows - last week he was in Iran getting an award from them.

GW should announce that he will release Oil reserves IF supplies cut off.

Congress should call EMERGENCY SESSION - MONDAY MORN - TO OPEN GULF AND OTHER AREAS TO DRILLING.

Time to nail the "NO-Go Dems"
The DemNOcrats.

noah

Once again even FOX misreports the news...the UN has NOT adopted a cease-fire resolution yet headlines at FNC imply UN ceasefire is being ignored.

noah

Larwyn, where did you see that?

Redcoat
Policy Maker: Israel began this war with an almost unprecedented level of legitimacy. Unfortunately, that was forfeited during the first days with the bombing campaign, which seemed to punish all of Lebanon instead of just Hezbollah.

What utter nonsense, Israel targeted routes of re-supply to and from Syria,and other objectives based on their value to Hezbollah,and they continue to conduct attacks on military targets.

The only mistake the Israeli's made, and it is difficult to see how they could have fixed it,was to have the biased anti-Semitic,anti-Western moral relativist international press traveling whorehouse and freak show doing pro-bono ministry of propaganda work for Hezbollah.

I don't know who this "policy maker" is, but his analysis shows the barely scratching the surface sophistication typical of N.Y Times sources, writers and readers.

LARWYN

Iran report on FOX.

BREAKING!!!
HAIFA HIT!!
Levanthal reported on FOX now
AP CONFIRMS - HAIFA HIT!

Patton,
"Can someone point to a war BETTER executed?

What are your metrics?"
Hollywood movies - not Georgraphy or Real History.

Terre,
Great rundown on much they want to forget - my REAL HISTORY meme!


larwyn

FOX has video of rockets comming out of Tyre - seems timed to Haifa hit.

AP reporting "dozens of casualties".

There is going to be HELL TO PAY!

larwyn

Redcoat,
"policy maker"??? whose policy?
NYT's probably considers Biden and Pelosi and Murtha or even Richard Clarke or the Clintonistas Albright/Cohen and on and on.

larwyn

4 rockets hit Haifa!

Idiot on MSNBC says rockets come in too low for Patriots to get.

The flat projection is for the Katusya missiles not the ballistic.

Per all experts, Hezzies needed Iran's OK to fire the long rangers that could hit Haifa.
They also said that they would only get "one shot per launcher" as Israel would take out the ballistic missile launchers - not shoot and skoot.

General Scales on now saying Far 3 or Far 5 missiles from Iran.
Scales thinks the missiles from Tyre were the short range katusyas.

larwyn

****NOT SHOT "from Iran"
supplied by Iran****

Scales need at least 100 lbers to crack building

Florence Schmieg

He who does not learn history is doomed to repeat it. In the early 30s, Neville Chamberlain signed a pact with Hitler to allow him to keep Czechoslovakia if he promised to end his takeovers there, and announced upon his return home that he had achieved "peace in our time." Hitler went on to invade Poland. WWII resulted. We are once again in a state of denial in the West. We cannot turn tail, run home, and hide and think we are safe and out of it. There is a terrorist nexus that stretches throughout the Middle East and into South America and other parts of Asia. It will need to be confronted and defeated. Sorry that I cannot take the current Democratic party seriously to do this, despite any mistakes made by Bush.

windansea

what the fudge does some anonymous "policy maker" or the NYT editorial board know about making war?

Israel knows what they are doing and left alone will contain and then destroy hezbollah

they do need some pointers in photoshopping and staging photo ops....perhaps they can truck some dead kids into Haifa now and make the most of it

Terrye

It does not surprise me that Fox, or any other media outlet do not know the difference between a cease fire or a cessation of hostilities or a Resolution not even voted on yet for either one of them. Sometimes I wonder if these people go out of their way to be obtuse. They seem to think that if the UN can come up with something on a Saturday then it is a sign of failure if all the fighting does not promptly end on Sunday. Even if the Resolution passes and is acted on, this could take awhile.

Cecil Turner

What are your metrics for utopia?

It's the metrics for an acceptable end-state that need to be reviewed. If the only outcome that'd satisfy the NYTimes (and fellow travelers) is for peace to break out all over the Mideast, then obviously any strategy is doomed to failure. Further, if a few bomb-throwers can win the PR war for the insurgents, then media-savvy terrorists will ensure we'll have them for the foreseeable future.

We didn't invade Iraq to provide better living conditions for Iraqis, but to interdict terrorist support (and possible access to national level weapons programs) for terrorists. That mission is largely accomplished. The long-range plan is to install a democracy there, in pursuit of the theory that democracies don't support nihilism. (Though, judging from the recent Lebanese experience, that theory may need some tweaking before being generalized to Islamic nations.) That's not something that can be done quickly, if it can be done at all. We probably ought to try, though.

topsecretk9

OT, but the Powerline guys suggest Quick, someone send Joe Wilson to Tanzania so he can come back and explain why this report can't possibly be true, fro this report...

IRAN is seeking to import large consignments of bomb-making uranium from the African mining area that produced the Hiroshima bomb, an investigation has revealed. A United Nations report, dated July 18, said there was “no doubt” that a huge shipment of smuggled uranium 238, uncovered by customs officials in Tanzania, was transported from the Lubumbashi mines in the Congo.

Tanzanian customs officials told The Sunday Times it was destined for the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas, and was stopped on October 22 last year during a routine check.

A senior Tanzanian customs official said the illicit uranium shipment was found hidden in a consignment of coltan, a rare mineral used to make chips in mobile telephones. The shipment was destined for smelting in the former Soviet republic of Kazakhstan, delivered via Bandar Abbas, Iran’s biggest port...

What is it with Uranium and Telecommunications interests in Africa? Also, since this uranium was camouflaged and appears to have been a fluke it was detected, whose to say how much and to who uranium has been smuggled? Like to say, to delegates from Iraq seeking it?

topsecretk9

Here is another blogger on the Uranium find...

...The experts said: “In reference to the last shipment from October 2005, the Tanzanian government left no doubt that the uranium was transported from Lubumbashi by road through Zambia to the united republic of Tanzania.” Lubumbashi is the capital of mineral-rich Katanga province, home of the Shinkolobwe uranium mine that produced material for the two atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945...
Semanticleo

"We probably ought to try, though."

Agreed. But what other option is there?

The question I have for the eminently reasonable Mr Turner is; If you knew what
you know now, would you still support the
invasion we had.(Not the invasion you would have preferred.)?

Terrye

I think the media has made a point of making things look as bad as they can and that has inspired insurgents to keep killing. After all, the worse it is the better the chance of a Democratic victory and the Democrats and Sadr and AlQaida all want the same thing in Iraq. Defeat and retreat for George W. Bush. People can call that simplistic or whatever but it would be naive to believe that terrorists do not know how to manipulate the media. So the NYT bears some blame too.

Baghdad is the capital. Keep up the attacks there and a few thousand bad guys can do a lot of damage.

It amazes me how Saddam could put 13,000 children in one mass grave with virtually no media coverage at all. Do these people really want things to be better in Iraq or do they just want to be able to go back to ignoring it?

I still support the invasion because I am not living in a fantasy world. I know what Saddam was, that was not going to change. Maybe people think the alternative was kite flying children in utopia, but it was not.

There were certain practical and real life considerations, such as the weapons programs, the support for terrorism, the crumbling sanctions program, the food for oil thievery, and the fact that we had to leave SA and could not keep up the no fly zones for ever. Maybe people think that there was no costs to the status quo or maybe they believed the status quo could be maintained. Not so, sooner or later we had to end that. And if we had just walked away we would right back where we started and how many more Iraqis would have died?

No, just saying that we could go back in time and not invade does not really answer the question of then what? If Saddam was really all that harmless Bill Clinton had years to resolve the situation and end the sanctions programs and just turn Saddam loose on the region. Instead he bombs Baghdad in 1998 and comes up with the Iraqi Liberation Act.

Patton

Here is the logic of those that oppose the liberation of Iraqi in a nutshell:

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE LIBERATED THE JEWS FROM THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS BECAUSE LOOK AT HOW MANY HAVE DIED FROM TERRORISTS SINCE THEN.

LOOK AT ALL THE MURDERED JEWS, CLEARLY IT WAS WRONG TO FREE GERMANY AND LIBERATE THE JEWS.

That is the exact same logic the Iraqi liberation opponents are using.

Patton

Tim Russert should ask John Kerry:

Knowing what we know today, how many Jews would end up suffering and dying terrible deaths in Isreal, was it right to overthrow Hitler and liberate the Jews?

How can you possible support the invasion of Germany after now seeing the number of deaths that action has caused?

noah

Kurdish area is booming...I guess they are happy with our decision.

Shiites gotta be happy with Saddam gone. So maybe they don't like us so much. Don't bother me none.

I guess the Sunni's are sucking hind tit. Tough shit.

2 out of 3 ain't bad.

larwyn

windansea
"ops....perhaps they can truck some dead kids into Haifa now and make the most of it"
You must have missed when I lamented that the crematorian owner was in Georgia prison. Coincidence that we find out that the star of Qana, "green helmet" is mortician.
If I am actually starting to think like them - it is scary.

Tops
Hmmmm Telecommunications in Africa - doesn't it make you think of Rep. Wm Jefferson?
And wasn't that also part of Mr. Plame's biz plan.

Aside:Would that trick to indent margins be too dangerous in my hands? Is that why you haven't emailed to me?

Patton
You just make too too too much sense for likes of LSMers and Cleo.
Love your comments.
We have to defeat the NEA!

topsecretk9

Larwyn

--Aside:Would that trick to indent margins be too dangerous in my hands? Is that why you haven't emailed to me?--

Did you ask me to email the instruction on blockquotes?

Sorry if I missed it.

Easy...replace other commands such as "b" "i" "em" with "blockquote" and actaully this a good one for you to use because if you forget the closing slash?...it's doesn't Larwyn the thread!

maryrose

Terrye:
Great comments and observations.I don't think a civil war will occur. I believe the government and the center will hold. Dems just want an election issue and Hillary just wanted her face on TV so she made a big stink about Rumsfield being present. Get over it dems he is not going to resign but I would welcome the resignations of some of these dems who froth at the mouth with absolutely no solutions.

Cecil Turner

If you knew what you know now, would you still support the invasion we had.(Not the invasion you would have preferred.)?

Yes. Further, I'd support whatever steps are necessary (including military action, and yes, invasion) to derail Iran's nuclear program--in order to avoid the inevitable result, IMHO, of a nuclear-armed Hizbullah. I'd far prefer a diplomatic solution, but I don't see how one is possible, let alone likely. (And if you thought Iraq was ugly . . .)

larwyn

If you knew what you know now, would you still support the invasion we had.(Not the invasion you would have preferred.)?

A very definite yet. Read history, know logistics, was in operations.

If people that asked such questions would only look at map and then get definition of preparation from Webster and prep of the battlefield from military dictionary, they wouldn't be asking the question knowing we knew who Iran was and where Iran was heading on 9-10!

Tops,
Thanks. Put request to you late in a thread where you used that nifty effect.

clarice

Traveling troupe of players--2 pics of the same woman on two different days one by AP , one by Reuters, in which she is bewailing the loss of her home(s).
http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/extreme-makeover-beirut-edition.html

AP and Reuters and AFP wholly owned subsidiaries of Hezbollah.

Samhadathought

Looking at the state of black America today, you really have to look back at the civil war and ask, was it worth it to liberate those people?

Patton

It would be interesting if the liberals told us just what other peoples they believe would have been better off living in tyranny rather then being liberated.

Do they believe the Jews should not have been liberated in Germany?

What about the Americans being liberated from the British?

Liberating the japanese from the Emperor?

How about the slaves being liberated from oppression?

What about the South Africans? Better off under apartied?

How about the Russians? The Eastern Europeans? Better off under the Communist boot?

How about the Afghanis, better off under Taliban rule?

WHY IS IT JUST THOSE IRAQIS THAT THE DEMOCRATS WOULD GO BACK AND SAY IT WAS A MISTAKE TO LIBERATE THEM?

Can they not find ONE other instance that they can point to and say, "YES! Liberating _____________ was a mistake.

Neo

The current situation in Baghdad is nothing that a couple of nukes couldn't bring to a quick end, but that option is off the table (for now).

Extraneus

If Clinton had liberated the Iraqis, he'd have gone down in Democrat history as one the greatest Presidents ever to walk the face of the earth. (And don't think I couldn't have ended that on a much sleazier note.)

To use the term "nightmarish" in the first sentence of this NYT article, as if that isn't a purely editorial comment devoid of any perspective, historical or otherwise, was probably so natural that the editors didn't even notice it.

We've lost more people in a week during other wars than we've lost in over four years of this one. And yes, we've liberated almost 30 million Iraqis and another 26 million Afghans from brutal tyrannies, eliminated obviously dangerous enemies and replaced them with friendly governments, inserted significant American military assets right on the long borders of Iran and Syria, and all at the cost of about 3000 brave Americans the NYT editorial staff couldn't give a damn about.

Some nightmare.

AJB
NYT hammers everyone else about how bad the war is, no way out, etc, etc, yet not one mention of their own huge ownership of creating the situation over there by their 24x7 terrorist enabling propaganda - including this particular article.
Typical right-wing logic. Shoot the messenger.

"By reporting on how bad Iraq's condition is in and how badly the US bungled it the NY Times is undermining the war!"

Get over it already. 14,000 Iraqis died from sectarian violence this year alone. $9 billion worth of reconstruction funds are missing. Iraq is losing $4 billion a year due to corruption. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are displaced.

Death squads are roaming the streets, car bombs are going off on a daily basis. Iraqis are being murdered by gunman in the streets for having the name "Omar", being gay, or wearing shorts. Women are being forced to wear veils because Shiite militias control the streets. Top US Generals have just announced that Iraq is on the verge of civil war.

Your beloved Bush administration is utterly incompetent. It ignored the claims by top military brass that Iraq would need several hundred thousand troops to restore law and order. It ignored the warnings of numerous nation-building experts and fired 500,000 Iraqi government workers from their jobs with barely any pay. It handed out no bid contracts to loyal GOP campaign contributers while Iraqi experts who could have rebuilt Iraq's infrastructure more cheaply and efficiently were left out to dry. It ignored the warning signs of sectarian tensions between the Sunnis and Shiites.

The Bush administration has botched the Iraqi war effort in every single way imaginable. Yet you guys actually have the nerve to blame the press for reporting the fact that Iraq is a clusterfuck.

Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

Sue

Actually, the reporting of the NYTs or other media outlets bothers me less than the cut and run attitude that most democrats are now embracing. That, you see, is in the Islamic fascist playbook. Divide and conquer. And they are very good at it.

Sue

And you left out there were no AQ in Iraq until we go there. Luckily, a civil war is about to erupt over there so you have a new talking point.

Patton

But AJB, you opposed the liberation of Iraq anyway, so what does the rest matter.

Please give us one war you think went soo mucgh better so we can compare the facts to see? Which is it?
Did you prefer the casualties of WWII?
Did you prefer the aftermath of WWII?

You haven't provided a single issue in you links that was BETTER under Saddam. In fact, everyone of you copmplaints was WORSE under Saddam - the guy you want put back in office.

And besides, your comments don't even match your links. There hasn't been 14,000 Iraqis killed in Sectarian violence, its a pure fabrication on your part.

I guess you preferred when they were quietly executed and dumped into mass graves..that you preferred.

In fact, if things are sooo bad over there, why do you trust the statistics and the reporting????

Patton

I se AJB is also pineing for the Baath parties return, a party that was founded upon and modelled after the Nazi Party of Germany.

lurker

Arabs are now saying Finish off Nasrallah.

As for oil, I saw a link somewhere that Iran is threatening to hold its oil reserves back. Hadn't read about Chavez but his oil business is not doing to well.

Yes, it was way past time to repeal the off-shore drilling ban and ANWR.

Things did not go well for many years after WWII and things will get worse before things get better. It has to get worse to force Europe into a different mindset to come to the realization that they have to fight against Islamofacism.

Honestly, regardless of who is in the office, my prediction is that this war can get very big and escalate into nuclear, bio, and chem war between the West and Islamofacism.

lurker

And I hope we do NOT concede to Siniora's seven point plan.

Patton

OK< I am willing to have an open mind, please liberals tell me, what makes you believe FEWER people would have died in Iraq under sanctions and Saddam Husseins rule?

What FACTS can you point to that shows, Iraq would have been less deadly, less violent and less repressive with Saddam Hussein in power and the lefts sanctions back in place, for what the next 20 years?

Just point me to some facts that show Hussein wasn't going to continue the mass arrests, the torture, 1/6 of th countries population living abroad, the financeing of terror attacks, the rape rooms, the child prisons, the mass graves, the genocide of the Marsh Arabs, etc. etc.

So its not the violence against the citizens of Iraq that you really oppose, because your policy would have assured that violence for 20 - 60 years once Uday or Qusay took over.

larwyn

Lurker
I heard and saw clip on FOX then
Oakleaf at PoliPundit got quote from Moscow Times:

Iran Threatens to Cut Oil Exports (OPEN THREAD)

On Sunday, Iran has vowed to use oil as a weapon:


“Iran vowed Sunday to expand its atomic fuel work and warned that any United Nations sanctions aimed at halting its uranium enrichment would incur a painful riposte, possibly including a cut in oil exports.”

re: Phoney Photos:
100% Definite and New - Hajj Busted Again - Two Media Busts In One -RiehlWorld

and from Thomas Lifson at American Thinker:
I don’t see any way around it. I nominate Charles for the panel.
Reuters">http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5768">Reuters scandal demands an outside investigation

[blockquote]Reuters now admits supplying the world’s media with crude propaganda pictures, faked by an Arab photographer. The agency’s journalistic standards are now a global laughingstock. If the agency hopes to regain credibility it must appoint an outside panel of experts to review other work of the same photographer, including the controversial photos supplied from Qana.[/blockquote]

Read it all and spread word for support.
Tks Tops and JHaynes if "blockquote" worked.


larwyn

Patton,
Love the list of all those troublesome people who have been liberated.
The LEFT is saying Israel is a mistake - so in essense you could fill JEWS in that blank. As w/o
the forming of Israel we wouldn't be going thru this - Stalin could have made a good dent in finishing the job. And all those trapped in Attaturk's empire would have been winnowed.
And the world would be at PEACE - HEAR ME - AT PEACE!!!

Shall I put that on the wacko sites? Look like it would pass muster?

Extraneus

larwyn, you need to use < and >, not [ and ].

Extraneus

bold off...

larwyn

Too fast for me Extraneous.

JMH emailed with the instruction to use [ vs < - must be for other sites.

Will try next time.

lurker

My opinion on oil? Let Iran do it.

Geesch, Israel was a mistake? How about the Balkans where National Socialism started? Anti-semitism started there before Israel was created in 1948.

One thing that the Holocaust Museum of Houston indicated was that the Jews were not even wanted by any country in the world so the world created Israel for the Jews. The Jews had a hard time getting visas and permits to immigrate to other countries and they continued to be mistreated and abused by the locals.

The mistakes started long before Israel became a state.

PeterUK

A better analogy is "Was it worth WWII to liberate the Germans from Hitler?"

There seems to be a misconception concerning the war in Iraq,it is over,this is the peace,or as near to peace as the Middle East has known for centuries,the region has been in a state of low intensity civil war for millennia.
Iran is undergoing violent conflicts with its Arab population,there has been violent revolts in Syria,Assad senior razed Hama to the ground,Saddam Hussein used similar violent tactics to maintain control of Iraq.One has only to look at Lebanon and Palestine to understand that inter-religious and tribal warfare are endemic in the Middle East.
Much of the current violence in Iraq is the result of Iran fighting a proxy war of conqest and destabilisation,the biggest threat to Iran is a peaceful unified Iraq.
The fighting in Lebanon is of a similar nature,Iran regards Israel as a bastion of the West,a symbol of the Wests most powerful member America,the annihilation of Israel is Iran's priority.
Was the war worth it? Quite simply the Lebanon would have erupted a few years earlier and would have been well on the way to being part of Greater Syria.
An Iraq weakened by sanctions,with much of its WMD destroyed or dispersed would have been too tempting a target for Iran,determined as it is to be the region's hegemonic power.Iran with nuclear weapons leaves only one option for Israel,sans a large US presence in the region,the Middle East cradle of civilisation,which has given the world so much,would bring forth its final gift,the first real nuclear war.
Yes,I say the war was worth it.

PeterUK

Extraneus,
We have lost more people in a few minutes walk across No-Mans-Land in WWII.

JM Hanes

Sorry larwyn! I meant that you should use carots (<>) instead of the brackets I used in my example.

Some email software interprets the carots as bona fide instructions, which, for example, would mean that you wouldn't have seen the actual command I typed, you'd have just seen

INDENTED TEXT
Mea maxima culpa! You did just what I told you to do; if you substitute carots for brackets next time, it should work perfectly.

JM Hanes

Peter:

Well stated. I'd only add that the Palestinian problem could also have been resolved eons ago if fellow Arabs hadn't been more interested in fueling their own proxy war against Israel than in actually assisting Palestinians in any constructive way.

Extraneus

And PeterUK, my apologies for downplaying the sacrifices of your compatriots, as well as those of our other great allies, such as Japan and Australia. Some opponents apparently forget these things as well.

Charlie (Colorado)

"Just war poorly executed". Translation: "If only I'd have been in charge it woud have been much much better."

Armitage or Powell.

PeterUK

Extraneus,
No offence given,no offence taken>I would be educational if we distributed some war footage to the Snuff merchants,they don't really know to whay extent we will go if pushed,again ignorance of history can be fatal.
It should have been WWI but WWII was equally as grim in its own way.

As for a poory executed war,it was brilliant,the Red Army used to had higher casualties on live fire exercise.Bloody Hell,even the Magnificent Seven had higher percentage of casualties.

Jane

Armitage's name surfaced today - I think on Meet the Press, where Tim reported to Condi that he disapproved about how she is handling the diplomacy between Israel and Lebanon.

What is he doing now, anyway? Other than criticizing that is.

Jane

BTW I predict that Hajj is snapping and selling pix again in a day or so under a different name.

maryrose

Tim disapproves... What are his diplomatic credentials? If it's Armitage he is referring to-answer the Plame charge first then we will see you as a credible person whose opinion we can trust.

Soylent Red

Folks...

Debating with the likes of AJB is just a fool's errand. I'm going to resolve to stop feeding the trolls so much.

You see, this has nothing to do with how things in Iraq are going, whether we should have invaded, or anything else. It's simply the politics involved in being embarassed by their own failure.

AJB's post is what passes for rational dissent. But notice, nowhere, ever does a lefty ever tackle the subject that is most salient in nearly every conflict that has happened in my lifetime:

Does the United States have a moral obligation to use its power for promoting democratic values?

Libs won't face that question head on because it tends to bring to mind the failures of the less than muscular approach they have always favored.

Start with Vietnam, then work your way through Cambodia, Iran, Pershing missile deployment in Western Europe, Reykjavik, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Desert Storm, Somalia, Kosovo, Serbia, Rwanda, Afghanistan, and now Iraq. Compare and contrast the non-muscular approach to the muscular approach and see which has proven more successful. Now apply that forward with Iran, Syria and North Korea.

Lefties are great at kibbitzing, but the track record speaks for itself. That's what eats away at them every day. They are collectively failures at foreign policy, because they are not prepared to back up their talk with action.

Simple rule: We win when we stand up vigorously for what is right and just. Totalitarianism will always lose when confronted forcefully.

Facere non dicere

lurker

"Does the United States have a moral obligation to use its power for promoting democratic values?"

What does our US Constitution say?

And it is to our benefit that we promote democratic values.

Soylent Red

Lurker:

See therein lies the rub.

The Constitution really only delineates how our government is structured, and what they can't do.

The Declaration, OTOH, is more of a philosophical underpinning for what the United States is ostensibly all about.

I choose to go by the Declaration in my analysis. I come from the "Pay any cost.." line of thinking. I'm probably one of the two or three conservatives that actually supported nation-building (done correctly, of course) before 9/11. So from that perspective, I tend to believe that the promotion of democracy serves out national interests.

However, Constitutionally speaking, I don't think that argument can be made explicitly. Technically, there are limits to how and why war should be waged.

So I guess it comes down to what direction you approach it from. I choose to believe the Constitution serves the Declaration. But I can certainly understand arguments to the contrary.

That's the kind of discussion you will never have with a leftist, and certainly not in the context of "Bush's War".

Sorry to deviate so far OT...

PeterUK

Iran and Saudi Arbia have no problem using their power to promote Islamic values,the left though are so up their own multicultural arses that they are too timid to project any core values,this is why we have come to the pass we are at today.
Culture like power abhores a vacuum,if one will not defend and promote ones own culture,one will have another culture forced upon one.The Islamists have seen that the West is weak in this respect and are pushing forward.

lurker

This isn't the first time we are at this pass...

Thanks, Soylent Red.

lurker

And so much for a "living US Constitution" when in reality it never is.

clarice

lurker, I misplaced your addy and wondered if you had anything on that matter I asked about some time ago.

Thanks, C

Extraneus

Good link to a video about Pallywood, for those considering MSM portrayals of chaos in Iraq or elsewhere.

SunnyDay

LGF hacked

scroll down to the "note"

Apparently, they have now taken the site offline.


SunnyDay

One of the links in that article goes to a site spoofing LGF.

windansea

look kids...Conyers has a new "report" out.

John Conyers’s new “investigative report” on the Bush administration, “The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Coverups in the Iraq War, and Illegal Domestic Surveillance.”

While it’s absent in the body of the report, the I-word does appear a few times in Conyers’s 1,401 footnotes, which include citations of authorities ranging from the left-wing conspiracy website rawstory.com to the left-wing antiwar sites democracyrising.us and afterdowningstreet.org to the left-wing British newspaper the Guardian to the left-wing magazines The Nation and Mother Jones to the left-wing blogosphere favorite Murray Waas to the New York Times columnists Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, Bob Herbert, and Frank Rich to former Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal to the New Yorker’s Seymour Hersh. (Sources for “The Constitution in Crisis” even include one story co-written by the disgraced Internet writer Jason Leopold.) Relying on such material, Conyers has created what might be called the definitive left-wing blogger’s history of the Bush administration.

from captains quarters

windansea

this should cheer you up TM

HARTFORD, Conn. -- U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, fighting for his political survival, appears to be cutting into challenger Ned Lamont's lead the day before Connecticut's Democratic primary election, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released Monday.

The poll shows Lamont, a wealthy Greenwich businessman, leading Lieberman 51 percent to 45 percent among likely Democratic voters heading into Tuesday's primary.


Last week's Quinnipiac poll showed Lamont leading 54 percent to 41 percent. Lamont has had a lead in the poll since July 20.

Lamont slipping

the drop is most likely due to JOM's crusade.

SunnyDay

LGF had backed up the site last night, it seems, and is back online.

Rick Ballard

"the drop is most likely due to JOM's crusade."

Well, that or Quinnipiac is protecting its reputation as the lead standard in polling. The traditional "last minute surge" excuse for its previous push polling was getting pretty thin twenty years ago.

windansea

I am thinking Joementum just might pull this one from the fire....

poor little firepuppies

clarice

Rick--but it was perfected by Zogby in 2004 wasn't it?
Quinnipiac is always unreliable, but primaries are particularly hard to poll.


windansea

looks like CT voters are fed up with move-on phone bankers

poster at kos

I made about 100 calls last night for Moveon.org's virtual phone bank project.

This is not a scientific process and MoveOn may very well have been calling a "wavering" list to try to identify which voters to turn out.

That being said . . .

Most voters were incredibly sick of getting calls, some folks were openly hostile, one woman was almost cryin and asking me to remove her from "my list" (ok, so maybe she was a little weird.
I got a surprisingly large number of hard Lieberman's.
I got a fair amount of hard Lamonts

TexasToast

"What are your metrics?"

Declare victory and go home. Otherwise we are babysitting the civil war we mid-wifed.

Jane

Being the sadistic bitch I am, I'm hoping that Lieberman pulls it out so Lamont can declare it was all Hamsher's fault. I've got nothing against Hamsher except that I posted a question on her blog after the black face incident: "Do you think this will hurt Lamont's chances?" and it never saw the light of day.

So she is now in the same league with photographer Hajj in terms of truth honesty and integrity for me.

And they say you mellow with age...

SteveMG

Declare victory and go home

And our responsibilities to the ordinary Iraqi citizen are zero?

Wow, now that's realpolitik. You make Henry Kissinger sound like Eleanor Roosevelt.

SMG

Martin

I think we've done quite enough to the ordinary Iraqi citizen-thanks.

Oh yeah-we got rid of Saddam, mass graves, vote etc.

They certainly seem grateful.

Sue

"Do you think this will hurt Lamont's chances?"

My question was "If it wasn't that big of a deal, why did Lamont claim the photo was offensive to him?" It didn't make it past the censors either.

Sue

If Joe wins this one, it will be like 2004 all over again. They will be so sure they won, because the polls said so. Nevermind what the voters said. ::grin::

SteveMG

I think we've done quite enough to the ordinary Iraqi citizen-thanks

Okay, but if things do indeed get worse and many ordinary Iraqis get slaughtered don't be surprised if the next time we need help from moderate Muslims in our war against radical Islamists they laugh in our faces.

Isn't the criticism from your side against Bush that he is too much of a unilateralist and doesn't get allies to join us?

Abandoning Iraq to the ravages of worse violence certainly won't help us get allies to fight this battle.

Alliances require committment on all parties.

Consequences, consequences.....

SMG

boris

They certainly seem grateful.

Brother has been there on two tours with the Army Corps of Engineers rebuilding. Working with the military and Iraqis.

The Iraqis rebuilding are grateful and want the job completed. The ones redestroying are more along the lines of your POV.

If there is a hell, hope you enjoy your stay.

TexasToast

Actually, SMG, I think our presence in the period immediately following our invasion was a stabilizing influence – but that was years ago now. Our ideologically driven, incompetently run, enormously expensive occupation has made things worse – not better. Our opportunity to “do the right thing” has been squandered by our pathetic inability to admit that we had no plan beyond getting rid of Saddam. That mission was indeed accomplished - and it seems that very little has been accomplished since. Our mere presence is part of the problem now - and is not part of the solution that we all hoped for at the beginning of George’s Excellent Adventure.

I actually now think that the best way to satisfy our responsibilities to the Iraqi people is to let someone else take over the transition to “democracy” (like the UN) and get the hell out of the way. We have had our chance and we blew it.

boris

incompetently run, enormously expensive occupation has made things worse

Who to believe? Brother who's been there twice or true misbelievers and their phoney fake facts and photos.

Jane

I don't know how you can calculate that we've done a poor job. For that you would have to have had a plan to have done it better, and calculate how it would have ended up under that plan. Even with the benefit of hindsight, no one can say with any assurance that some theoretical plan would not have been far worse rather than better.

Sue

It’s Primary Eve here in CT. Emotions are running high, especially with today’s Quinnipac poll showing that Ned is down to a five point lead. It’s all down to the ground game now, GOTV, and, well, praying.

Typical. Bring God into politics when it suits ya'! ::grin::

Sue

Oops...got in a hurry and forgot the quotes...from TRex over at the Dog House...

"It’s Primary Eve here in CT. Emotions are running high, especially with today’s Quinnipac poll showing that Ned is down to a five point lead. It’s all down to the ground game now, GOTV, and, well, praying."

Typical. Bring God into politics when it suits ya'! ::grin::

windansea

let someone else take over the transition to “democracy” (like the UN)

LOL...great idea!!

you do remember what happened what happened after UN HQ in Bagdad got blown up right?

those UN posts in Lebanon were sure effective huh?

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Wilson/Plame