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August 22, 2006

Comments

clarice

I think he has nothing to do with the case and I am loathe to speculate on the many possible bizarre motives for his obsession and confession.(Does COlorado provide free sex change operation for inmiates?)

I must say that once again I rank Colorado lawyers, including especially those in public office, as the oddest collection of simpletons with bar degrees in the country. In every major case out of Colorafo that I can think of in recent years, the DAs' behavior has been inexplicably idiotic.

clarice

***ColoraDo**And does this mean you're back? If so, yeah and hurray..(And BTW we've decided to run Jane for President and there are a few high level govt slots left you can ask for .)

Sue

Clarice,

I don't think the DA had any other option. The man (??) is a threat to children and had confessed to a murder. They had to get him back in the US and Thai was the best foreign country to work with.

lurker

I'm sick of this whole story. I think Fox News is overrunning this story.

clarice

He's wanted in California for skipping a criminal hearing. Cal could have sought his return on that, Sue, and the DA could have spoken to him when he was returned...sans the media frenzy and the coconut prawns in business class.

Jane

I actually think there is a chance he did it. But I think there is a greater chance that he was in possession of the snuff film made about the killing.

SteveMG

DA could have spoken to him when he was returned...sans the media frenzy and the coconut

But as with just about everything in this horrific case, it was either leaked or someone in the press found out about it.

Karr is psychologically disturbed and wants to be, in his mind, linked to JonBenet forever. This is how he thinks he can do it.

With the death of Patsy Ramsey, Jon Benet's mother, the case is essentially closed. I think John Ramsey, the father, assisted in the coverup but he had no role in the accidental death which happened when Patsy overeacted to a bedwetting incident.

It's stunning to think a mother could do that to her child. But we know that some parents do even worse things....

One very sad anecdote. The was a neighbor friend of the Ramseys who used to dress up as Santa every Christmas and go to houses and give gifts to kids. He did it for so long that he actually grew a real Santa beard.

He did this routine for years and years. Over that time, he said, every child would come up to him asking him for gifts. They wanted "stuff" from him.

Every child except one. The first time he met her, she came up to him at the end of the evening and gave him a gift and thanked him. He said that had never happened before and he was so moved that he told his wife that "I think I met something that is too good for this world."

That girl was Jon Benet.

After the murder of Jon Benet, the man moved out of Boulder, shaved his beard and has never played as Santa again.

SMG

clarice

"Snuff film", Jane? I'm with SMG..I think the mother accidently killed JBR--probably in a tub accident, freaked out and dreamed up this scenario to cover it up, that the husband suspected as much but ascertained there was nothing to be gained and everything to be lost by (or simply lived in denial) by coming clean.

Sue

He's wanted in California for skipping a criminal hearing.

It is my understanding that Thai officials would not have cooperated for just that. But a sensational killing, one he confessed to, they had no choice.

clarice

The US would do what it just did here--cancel his visa and the Thai authorities would respond by expelling him as an undesirable..The Boulder DA didn't have to do any of this.

Jane

"Snuff film", Jane?

Yup. There is a huge market for pedophile S&M and I think Karr was in that market. So he either did it, or watched the film enough times that he thinks he did it. And I don't think the parents had a thing to do with it.

SteveMG

And I don't think the parents had a thing to do with it.

I know we don't want to re-hash the theories on the murder but this scenario of an outsider/intruder makes no sense to me.

That is, someone broke into the home while everyone was asleep, abducted Jon Benet, murdered her, then sat down at a desk in the kitchen and wrote a nearly 3 page highly detailed ransom note (after discarding two practice notes).

Why would a pedophile/child molester write a ransom note at all? After killing your victim, why not just run like hell?

The ransom note makes absolutely no sense at all unless it was done to divert attention from what really happened.

SMG

clarice

That's my thought, but with the President elect in disagreement perhaps I ought to shut up about it.

Barney Frank

I'll rehash it to this extent;
the cause of death was asphyxiatin caused by strangulation and an associated skull fracture.
It seems a little difficult to accidentally strangle your daughter with a garrote, whether in the tub or not.

As one who has a cousin who was nearly railroaded for a murder simply because he drove the same kind of car as the murderer and as the personal recipient of more than my fair share of slanderous accusations of felonius conduct myself I think speculations about the Ramseys murdering their own daughter absent any actual evidence is pretty over the top.

Sue

Why would the US cancel his Visa? How would the US have even known about him unless the Boulder DA got the US involved?

SteveMG

It seems a little difficult to accidentally strangle your daughter with a garrote, whether in the tub or not.

Right, but that's not the theory.

The theory is that Jon Benet wet her bed (again, she was having problems at night) and her mother lost her temper while cleaning Jon Benet in the bathroom. There was some sort of accident which led to Jon Benet having her skull fractured. Accident in the sense of "toilet rage" or Patsy lashing at her daughter in anger.

Patsy Ramsey then created the garrote/strangle scene (with the sexual abuse added) in an attempt to cover for the original accident.

Could be all wrong. It's difficult to imagine a mother doing all this to her child.

The ransom note is just absurd, though. An intruder/pedophile angle makes sense only if one excludes that note.

Enough from me on this; one can start to get too deep in this ugliness and never get out. Nature is described as "red in tooth and claw". And human nature is part of that.

Horrifically sad.

SMG

clarice

Barney, the report I read, said the child was unconscious and dying when the garotte was applied..that the binding of her hands would have not worked to restrain her otherwise, and that that was an attempt to deflect from the cause of her death. With a--what?--12 inch gash in her skull inflcited first, the garroting does seem unnecessary.

Sue, the Colorado D.A. needn't only to have informed D O S that Karr was a fugitive and requested his visa be lifted, I think, to accomplish that affect.

BTW the family insists he was with them, not in Boulder, when the murder occurred.
This is a summer doldrum nothingburger IMO.

Jane

Clarice,

Harrummmph! If elected, I won't be that kind of president. Your opinion is always welcomed, in fact demanded!

I'm not betting money on my theory, but I don't think the parents did it, so that leaves an outsider.

The point about the ransom note is a good one, but Karr, at least, is clearly twisted enough to do the unexpected.

I do hope we get some answers at some point.

Jane

Clarice,

The family, altho insisting he was with them, has not been able to produce a single picture taken that Christmas, with him in them.

TM, I would be eternally grateful if you could check your "verify your comments" scheme - I still have to verify every comment, my personal information is lost nearly every post, and my eyes often cannot discern the letters in the verifying screen. Is there a way to make it a little easier?

Sara (Squiggler)

SMG -- would anyone have believed the home invasion abduction of Elizabeth Smart if the little sister hadn't awaken and gotten a glimpse? I don't see how this intrusion is any less bizarre than an intrusion that required coming through a 2nd floor window. Patsy Ramsey passed a lie detector test and there was nothing that ever came out that indicated that she had that kind of temper or that she had any type of mental instability that would make her bash her daughter's skull in and then choke her with a garrote. It was a ludicrous theory back then and even more so now.

My theory is that the killer, probably known to the family in a peripheral way, although they may not realize that even at this late date, was in that house for a holiday event and instead of leaving, hid out in the basement until everyone went to bed. From the diagram of that basement, it would be easy to hide down there for a long time and noone would be the wiser, especially if there was a party going on upstairs. It had multiple rooms and is huge.

Karr seems nuts, but there are some serious questions. That Teddy Bear showing up is one big one to me. And why is his first wife, who was only 13 when he took her across state lines and married her, so afraid of him? The sex change story is bogus, IMHO. I was shocked to hear it only costs $1500 to get one in Thailand. I know a "woman" who had a sex change, it cost "her" over $25,000 just for the electrolysis and it was a three year preparation period, with hormone treatments and tons of psychological treatment. They even made "her" go have sex with a woman before "he" changed to a "she" to be absolutely sure. "She" said that that requirement was the very hardest for "her" when "she" was still a "him." One similarity between "her" and Karr, however, is the history of child abuse and a mother who tried to kill "her" as a child, just like Karr.

SteveMG

would anyone have believed the home invasion abduction of Elizabeth Smart if the little sister hadn't awaken and gotten a glimpse

Yes, very odd things happen when done by very evil people.

But when they do evil unspeakable things, they don't sit down and write a ransom note. A ransom note for a victim that they've killed and left in the basement of the home?

It's possible that some sick person did this. I'm not entirely ruling that out. But we usually go on the most logical explanation.

Which admittedly isn't always the right explanation.

I cannot being to comprehend how someone can do this to a child. Any child much less one's own. So, we're dealing with a world that cannot be understood; what we think is logical may be entirely wrong.

SMG

Jane

Fox news is now reporting that Karr was in Boulder at some point. (Don't know if it was the pivotal point yet.)

Sara (Squiggler)

Now I know Karr is nuts ... he is worried that appearing in court in a jail jumpsuit might taint a potential jury pool against him. My eyes have rolled so far back in my head, they may never be normal again.

Sara (Squiggler)

There is a piece of info that I heard the other day that if I knew years ago, I'd forgotten. Michael Baden was talking about the autopsy and the fact that a sliver of wood, presumably from something like a broomstick handle, was found in her vagina, indicating she had been penetrated with something wooden. Would a mother do that? I can't imagine that even in my sickest nightmares.

clarice

Sara--The Ramseys phumpfed around about the lie detector tests and finally took them only privately and then Patsy's first test was inconclusive.Not good evidence.

The teddy bear turns to have been a gist to JBR two weeks before from a pagent which Patsy forgot about. How odd is it that someone else had a pic of himself as a kid with a teddy bear, fer Chrissake?

Jane, Karr also went to Petaluma after Klaas was killed..he's a murdered girl child obsessive.

clarice

**GiFT****

clarice

Here's a whacky theory: Karr's mom tried to kill him, then was committed. He decided that Patsy was guilty and is trying to clear her name. (BTW someone in Sonoma says he "confessed" to her 5 years ago though it is not clear that was transmitted to Colorado authorities.)
See, if your mom tries to kill you, you think there's something wrong with YOU..and then if she is taken away, why it's all YOUR fault so you try to see that Patsy is let off the hook because ...well, you're nuts...

Sue

I have always thought the son was involved. A cover-up by both Ramseys to protect him would be the most likely scenario. But I also thought OJ's son was involved in Nicole's murder too. So there you are. A fetish with sons as the perp?

Barney Frank

clarice,

I could be wrong but I believe the official cause of death was asphyxiation by stangulation and that the cranial fracture was contemporaneous but not fatal. I believe ascertaining that death was by asphyxiation is pretty easy to establish due to the physiological reactions it causes.
I didn't mean to single you out as speculating on her parents' involvement. I just think about how tough the father's life would be (assuming he is innocent), having lost his daughter and now his wife. And then having this cloud of suspicion hanging over his head on top of it all.

maryrose

Karr isn't the killer-he's looking for 15 minutes of fame. He's a child sexual predator however.
SteveMG:
For years I supported your theory but recently I just don't know. Whoever did it will have to answer to God for harming such a precious little girl.

maryrose

I was surprised to hear that they seached the entre house twice and couldn't find her. Then on the third try she was discovered by the father ,who immediately moved her upstairs destroying the crime scene in the process.

SteveMG

I just think about how tough the father's life would be (assuming he is innocent), having lost his daughter and now his wife.

Well, even worse for John Ramsey is that he had another daughter from his first marriage who was killed in a car accident. With her fiance in Chicago on an icy road.

SMG

clarice

Barney, I could be misled--there is a great deal of contradictory material in the public domain, but the information I got appeared to be from an autopsy report, and it indicated the child was unconscious from the head wound and dying when she was strangled, indeed, the report indicated the wound was so severe she would not have recovered from it even if not garroted.

Trickish Knave

Karr is a tool and a douchebag. I don't think for one minute this guy did it. It was divine justice when JBR's mother died of cancer. The father is next in line.

SteveMG

Maryrose:
For years I supported your theory but recently I just don't know. Whoever did it will have to answer to God for harming such a precious little girl

I'm not sure either. The ransom note, for me, is critical. I cannot imagine an intruder sitting down at a table in the home and calmly writing down a 2 1/2 page ransom note.

Why write a note at all much less a detailed multi-page one? She's dead. Why leave a note?

If you killed her after writing the note, why leave the note (evidence) behind?

Doesn't add up.

Two interesting tidbits:

(1)The Ramsey's had a dog. But it was left with the neighbors that evening because the Ramsey's were going to leave early the next day to fly to Minnesota.

Luck of the intruder?

(2) And Patsy Ramsey was wearing the same clothes for two consecutive days (for the 25th Christmas party she went to and also for the next day).

Didn't change? A former beauty queen?

I just hope God is smiling as He watches Jon Benet play with her dog.

SMG

Sue

Steve,

Where did the theory involving the bedwetting come from?

clarice

Her wet clothing had been removed and was in the hamper and urine soaked sheets in the laundry area.

Jane

>(2) And Patsy Ramsey was wearing the same clothes for two consecutive days (for the 25th Christmas party she went to and also for the next day).

This part doesn't bother me. She awoke to find her daughter missing. She grabbed the first thing she saw.

Parents do kill their kids, but I don't think these parents killed their daughter. Whackjobs like Karr do stuff like this. People whose mother tried to kill them, as infants do not fall far from the tree, Even if Patsy were trying to cover something up, she would not have impaled her daughter on a paint brush handle. If she was that twisted, other twisted symptoms would have come to light when she was getting as much scrutiny as Karr is today.

cathyf

SMG -- The ransom note is not really that inexplicable. If the killer intended it to be a kidnapping, and got into the house and hid in the basement waiting for the family to go to sleep, then he would have had HOURS just sitting there with nothing to do. If writing a ransom note didn't occur to him until that point, then he could have written it out then.

Not saying that's what happened, just that your claim that a note written in the house had to have been after the murder is not necessarily true. Not necessarily false, of course, just not necessarily true.

cathy :-)

SteveMG

Where did the theory involving the bedwetting come from?

Jon Benet had been wetting the bed for about a month.

And as Clarice noted, the wet clothes were discovered in the house. She also had urine in her panties when discovered although I guess that could have been caused by the killing.

This theory for the death - toilet rage - has been embraced by Steve Thomas, one of the detectives who investigated the crime. Also by Henry Lee of OJ trial fame.

A summary of Thomas's book/theory is here (Link)

Scroll down about 1/3 of the page.

SMG

topsecretk9

--Where did the theory involving the bedwetting come from?--

this was a big theory/innuendo in the book "Perfect town, perfect murder"

There was also a theory in the book, the young son experimenting with a stun gun John Ramsey owned (ie. tragic accident) -- from memory can't remember how they explained the other aspects (forensic, etc.), but at the time I remember thinking it made a little bit os sense.

Sara (Squiggler)

First of all there is no way in the world that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter. I would bet my own life on it.

How does anyone know that the guy sat at the kitchen table? That's a silly speculation. I know they found other copies thrown away, but those could have been thrown anywhere, doesn't say where the killer was when he wrote it. And the idea that because it mentions the $118,000 bonus that means someone who knew the Ramseys is hokey too. This killer had plenty of time to wander the house and riffle through Ramsey papers. For all we know, he saw something on John Ramsey's desk or a note on a refrigerator door or something. Maybe a checkbook lying around with a deposit noted in it Bonus or something like that. There are a dozen different ways of knowing of that bonus.

The woman Karr confessed to has a tape. She notified Calif. authorities and they did the recording but apparently never informed Colorado, or if they did, Colorado ignored the info.

There is a handwriting expert on John Gibson right now who is saying a 99% similarity in handwriting from ransom note to Karr's. I heard two others say same thing and one who says no way.

SteveMG

She awoke to find her daughter missing. She grabbed the first thing she saw.

Yeah, but she testified that she got dressed before finding her daugher missing.

The family was going to leave on a private plane (husband was a pilot) at 7:00 a.m. to fly to Minnesota.

She testified that she woke up at 5:30, put her makeup on and got dressed and then went downstairs to the kitchen to start the coffee. She then saw the ransom notes (3 pages) laid up at the bottom of the stairs.

She read the first part of the first page, realized what it said, then went to her daughter's bedroom. Seeing that Jon Benet was gone, she yelled for her husband who came down, read the notes and told her to dial 911.

It's a small point, admittedly. But if you add up enough of these, things start to make one go, "Huh?"

I hope it's shown I'm wrong. I'd love to think that it was an outsider. Doesn't bring back the girl obviously; but it makes one feel "better" knowing that parents didn't do this.

SMG

MayBee

I don't think Karr did it.

I don't know if one of the Ramsey's did, but it's always been my speculation that they at least thought one of them did it, and thus the strange behavior and conditions when talking to the police.

Sadly, both perverts and parents do terrible things to children. I remember a case in Florida in the 90's, a dad smashed his two year old son's (Bradley something) head repeatedly into the toilet bowl because the boy wasn't potty training well. And of course, I know someone who killed her husband violently and I never would have suspected she'd do it.

My husband and I are cooking up a plan to claim responsibility for Natalee Halloway just in time for our trip back next summer. Anything for business class, baby.

SteveMG

I know they found other copies thrown away, but those could have been thrown anywhere, doesn't say where the killer was when he wrote i

The investigation determined that the note was written on a notepad that belonged to Patsy and that she used to write notes and doodles, et cetera. It was also written using a pen that was on Patsy's desk.

It was a 2 1/2 page detailed note. That took a bit of time to write especially since they started at least one (maybe twice).

Where do you think the note was written? Elsewhere? Why leave the notepad? Three pages were torn out but the rest of the pad was left behind.

Why write a ransom note for a victim that you've killed? She's dead. You won't get any ransom for a dead victim that has been left in the house.

I don't want to believe this stuff I'm writing either. Believe me.

SMG

topsecretk9

An attorney for the Ramsey family said Wednesday that Karr once lived near the family in Conyers, Ga.

JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family's home in Boulder, Colo., on Dec. 26, 1996.

Just curious, but has there been any reports that say exactly where he was living the month she was murdered and exactly where he was employed?

MayBee

TS- I believe he was living in Alabama.
I have no idea where he's actually made his money, although I heard speculation he was a bit of a film distributor, as well as a substitute teacher.

You know what fascinates me about him? He is a pedophile, but he repeatedly lost teaching jobs because he was too strict with the children. I thought the average pedophile was too sweet to children. Is there pedophilia S&M?

clarice

He was living in Ga at the time.

The notion that he killed the child is ridiculous.

And, Sara, how can you say you know Patsy didn't? If the medical report I saw was accurate, the skull wound might have happened accidently--bathing a flailing child in a bathtub when she slipped and fell. It seems to me the Ramseys were a family where outside appearances of perfection were very important, and, if so, the accidental injury may have caused panic and odd behavior.

The note could not have been written by an odd intruder.

Sara (Squiggler)

Is there pedophilia S&M?

Why not?

The 13 year old ex wife is scared to death of him, according to reports. I want to know how he was getting teaching jobs with only one semester of college and a porn arrest on his record. This man is far more savvy then we are giving him credit for, it seems to me.

MayBee

Wasn't there very little blood at the house?
How does a head injury create very little blood? Maybe the bathtub scenario makes a lot of sense- it would certainly be easy to clean.

Sara (Squiggler)

Because she was sexually violated, Clarice. So violently, apparently, slivers of wood were found inside her. No, I'll never believe Patsy would do that. And there is absolutely zero evidence anywhere that I've heard about that Patsy was ever suspected of abusing her children or even being an overly harsh or strict mother.

Patsy as the killer has nothing going for it and a dozens different things going against it. And much of the negative publicity about her not cooperating and all that was bogus and just that, publicity from our so trustworthy press.

clarice

Here's a pretty good summary of the facts, Sara, and I agree with Thomas, Patsy remains the key suspect.

http://www.crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm

Sara (Squiggler)

Maybee, the tub wouldn't survive a Luminol test. They test the drain too.

As far as the pad used by the ransom writer, what does that prove other than the killer grabbed a pad off Patsy's desk because it was there.

Sara (Squiggler)

Clarice, I'll look, but this is just another reporter writing an article. Those in the Patsy camp have held that opinion based on so much bogus info at the start, they refuse to use common sense, IMHO. I'm rather shocked that some on this forum still believe so much of the garbage that passed as news in the beginning. Well, one good thing, this new Karr stuff has totally knocked the Duke case out of the news. There are blessings to be grateful about.

topsecretk9

--Is there pedophilia S&M?--

A variation of the scary child catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

MayBee

Maybee, the tub wouldn't survive a Luminol test. They test the drain too.

Did they?
Where did the blood from the head wound go?

Sara (Squiggler)

Why are you assuming the head wound happened in the bathtub? What blood was found at the crime scene? If any? If there is no blood, my first assumption would be that the blow came after she was dead. But then what do I know.

Sara (Squiggler)

I don't know what tests they did, MayBee, but Henry Lee was called in and he doesn't miss much.

Sara (Squiggler)

Here is something that creeps me out that Henry Lee has said. He thinks the minute amounts of DNA in her brand new panties were from the person who packed the panties at the production stage. Makes me feel itchy just knowing the number of times I've taken new panties out of a package and put them on and gotten someone else's skin cells on me. Yuck.

cathyf

Sorry, Sara, I am quite willing to believe that there are mothers who would do that. But I still don't see how that is the only possibility. Suppose somebody came into the house during the party the day before. He intended to kidnap JBR so that he could rape her. He hid out in the basement waiting for the family to go to sleep. At the party, or from papers lying around, he saw something that told him the amount of John Ramsey's bonus. He realized that while he had come for a kidnapping, he had not written out a ransom note. So he grabbed Patsy's notepad and wrote one out. Then he left the note in the kitchen and went up to kidnap JBR.

Then things started to go wrong -- because he was basically nuts and the whole scheme was pretty impractical. He couldn't wait until he got out of the house to rape JBR, so he took her down into the basement where he had been hiding out and he felt safe down there. He tried to rape her, and couldn't because she was just a little girl and too tight. So then, crazed, he tried to use a broomstick to tear her open. In her struggles, he killed her. Then panicked and left.

Like I said, I have no idea if it happened that way, and anyway I lean towards the theory that Patsy killed her. It's just that there ARE ways that it COULD have been an intruder.

cathy :-)

clarice

Sara, please read the autopsy report--there is no mention at ll of any bits of wood in JBR's vagina--just another sensational bit of journo dross.

Sue

Henry Lee was on Greta the other night. He claimed the blood, which was JonBenet's, on her panties, came from contusions found inside her vagina wall, from splinters off a the paint brush used to tighten the garote.

Sue

I personally don't think Karr did it. But he may have information from the world he ran in that they want.

topsecretk9

Oh Gawd Sue...he's Hannibal Lecter in Silence?

Sue

I didn't watch it, so I don't know. I just don't think he did it. I'm also not convinced the either of the parents did it. However, I could be convinced they thought their son did it and tried to cover for him, only to find out later he was innocent too. Just a thought.

MayBee

Why are you assuming the head wound happened in the bathtub? What blood was found at the crime scene? If any? If there is no blood, my first assumption would be that the blow came after she was dead. But then what do I know.

Oh, I'm just saying that the head wound in the bathtub full of water makes sense considering so little blood was found at the house. I don't know what blood WAS found, just that very little was found.

A dead body still has blood in it, no? Some amount of blood would escape a head wound, although it wouldn't spurt with the beating of the heart.

clarice

The autopsy report says the wound seemed to have been caused by a curved surface---like the edge of a bathtub--not a sharp edge.

Sue

Years ago, when I was still in high school, a popular girl shot herself in the head, on the same day her parents bought her a new Ford Mustang. Why would she commit suicide, we all wondered? Years later, the truth came out. Her younger brother, 12 at the time, accidently shot her and the parents covered it up. Wanting to protect the living child. I can see the actions of the Ramseys as parents trying to protect their living child. Only to find out later he was not guilty of what they thought?

Quiet Lurker

Whether or not Karr did it, far too early to tell.

Whether or not a Ramsey did it? Long past time to give it up.

As we've seen too many times it just isn't particularly hard to obtain an indictment… if there is any evidence. The DA stands in front of the Grand Jury going "blah, blah, blah" without any defense, cross examination, refuting testimony, etc. Grand juries are notoriously too eager to please. With the entire Boulder department certain the Ramsey's did it and all their energies going into proving it, and months before a Grand Jury they came up with na da. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Game over. A U.S. district judge examing all the evidence in 2003 ruled that there was virtually no evidence to support any theory that the parents did it, but there was abundent evidence that an intruder entered the home and killed the child.

The Ramsey's are innocent as a matter of law, both in presumption and fact. It is distressing to see so many regulars who I normally enjoy reading, making such wild ass suppositions about a family they really know nothing about, and who have suffered a horrific tragedy.

If I wanted to listen to absurd consiparcy theories I'd go to one of Joe Wilson's next lectures. Please, please stop. Thank you.

Back to lurking.

MayBee

The Ramsey's are innocent as a matter of law, both in presumption and fact.

Innocent as a matter of fact is a tough sell, Quiet Lurker, although I appreciate your supposition that they are.

I tend toward Sue's theory. The Ramseys thought a Ramsey did it and covered it up. Whether a Ramsey actually did it I don't know.

Is it not ok to discuss people we don't know personally?

Quiet Lurker


"Is it not ok to discuss people we don't know personally?"

I don't believe that's what I said. It isn't whether you personally know someone, it's if you know enough or if it is appropriate. For instance, our favorite media hound Joe Wilson is fair game for wild ass speculation and ridicule, because he asked for it. Victims of crimes? Not so much.

topsecretk9

Honestly, I don't think the Ramsey's did it, and distinct possibility the brother did on accident, but then I think it was a bit too sophisticated a situation for a boy of his age.

Having a total recall moment here, but I do recall she did has markings of a stun gun.

Recently there was a stalker arrested in the victims home (I think) and the stalker was valet who copied a set of keys and that is how he was able to enter the home. THAT was a new one on me, and not sure if the police pursued that...but a mechanic or say even a valet at a Hotel of a beauty pageant...could have done something similar.

MayBee

For instance, our favorite media hound Joe Wilson is fair game for wild ass speculation and ridicule, because he asked for it. Victims of crimes? Not so much.

But people become part of news for lots of reasons, sometimes because they brought it upon themselves and sometimes because it was brought on them. It can indeed be tragic.

But if it isn't to be discussed (one man's speculation is another's discussion), who gets to tell the story? Who is officially sanctioned to discuss the Ramseys, and why do the rest of us have to believe *them*?
How do we know the Ramseys are innocent-- because you said so? It is, after all, an unsolved crime.

Jane

Yeah, but she testified that she got dressed before finding her daugher missing.

Well that's a harder sell, but not completely improbable.


Why write a ransom note for a victim that you've killed? She's dead.

If the initial intent was not to kill her but instead to own her for a while with a little pay-off in the end, the note would make sense. The $118k figure is the sticking point there, because IMX people don't leave evidence of their bonuses around - at least at that level, for others to see. I think Karr's initial story was that he attended the party with a friend, and scoped out a window to return and then hid under a bed. Maybe he heard a private discussion. A long shot, but possible.


Is there pedophilia S&M?

The speculation that hit my gut the hardest from the millions of talking heads was that Karr trafficked in pedophile S&M films (and I note someone said he was a film seller above), maybe the killer was making a film that turned bad. I think it is possible, if that film is out there, Karr watched it so often that he knows all those details that no one knows. Frankly that is the most hopeful scenereo because it will lead to the killer. What seems tough about that theory is dragging in all the equipment.

Sue

There was an interview with a teacher at the school where both Karr and his wife substituted. She said they dismissed Karr after about 2 subs. For reasons she was not sure of. They made around $35 a day for subbing. She said she asked Mrs. Karr what Mr. Karr did and was told he stayed home with their 2 younger sons and worked all day on the computer. I wonder where that computer is today?

SteveMG

The $118k figure is the sticking point there

Well, the sticking point is any amount really. Or even a ransom note at all.

If this was a pedophile/sick person who wanted to molest the girl, he'd molest her and then leave. Or take her with him.

Not leave a note.

Even if, it seems to me, that this was a botched kidnapping by a pedophile, why leave such a note? Just leave a note saying, "We have your daughter. We'll be in touch. Don't call the police or anyone."

I'm sure you've read the note. Does any of that make sense?

SMG


MayBee

The speculation that hit my gut the hardest from the millions of talking heads was that Karr trafficked in pedophile S&M films (and I note someone said he was a film seller above)

Jane, I think that was me and I must have heard the same thing you did. It is horrible to think about.

Jane

I'm sure you've read the note. Does any of that make sense?

Well considering whoever did this sort of crime was sick sick sick, it doesn't strike me as odd as it strikes you. I mean look at Karr. He's a complete whack-job, and it just keeps getting more and more bizarre. Frankly the ransom note cuts toward Karr's guilt not away from it, from that perspective.

Sara (Squiggler)

Clarice, I don't know what the autoposy says about splinters in her vagina, but I heard Henry Lee say what he said. Why would he make that up? He was called in to find the trace evidence that the original autoposy and invesitgators missed, wasn't he and to reevaluate all the evidence? I am more apt to take his word than some Boulder coroner.

topsecretk9

You know, is it inconceivable that Karr was working alone? Perhaps he is just a part of the puzzle here...

Tom Maguire

TM, I would be eternally grateful if you could check your "verify your comments" scheme - I still have to verify every comment, my personal information is lost nearly every post, and my eyes often cannot discern the letters in the verifying screen. Is there a way to make it a little easier?

I think we are all prisoners of a Typepad "enhancement" - I will check again, but as best I know I have not activated any verification checks at all. That said, sometimes Typepad does block me from spamming my own site (which may be a good thing..)

Tom Maguire

I'm not sure either. The ransom note, for me, is critical. I cannot imagine an intruder sitting down at a table in the home and calmly writing down a 2 1/2 page ransom note.

The note is baffling, but...

if you stick with the idea that the intruder (or intruders) hid for hours in the basement waiting for the party to end, they have plenty of time to write a note while passing the time (No, I have no idea why the discarded drafts would be left with the final note, rather than tossed in the hiding place. well, I guess I do have an idea - the discarded drafts were brought along so as to conceal the fact that they had been hiding.0

Then the abduction goes sour, but the note is written, there is a moment when they figure they can flee with the corpse and still try to collect a ransom, so they leave the note, Then they abandon that plan and flee.

Improbable? Sure, every theory on the table is improbable.

And the "Amy" story from the CBS article I linked is wild:

Like JonBenet, she took lessons at Dance West. And like JonBenet, another girl, who is identified as "Amy," was attacked and sexually assaulted at night in her own bedroom on Sept. 14, 1997.

That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.

Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding."

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

Sara (Squiggler)

Tom, my blog was doing the same thing and I hadn't activated the feature, so I deactivated, but it is back to doing it again.

topsecretk9

That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.

WOW...I can't remember exactly but wasn't the MO of the cereal box (can not remember the actual moniker) Killer recently...he would enter homes and wait? (and that stalker I mentioned above)

A mechanic, a valet at pageant event hotel...might be.

I thinks Sue's inadvertent Hannibal Lector idea...that these weirdoes have a way of finding and communicating with each other, might not be that far fetched either. Who knows, maybe Karr is in contact with some other weirdo who did it and has now convinced himself he had a part in it. One thing is for sure about Karr...he did not appear to be worried and his bug eye routine conveyed to me he was soaking it all in.

Sara (Squiggler)

TS, wasn't there something about a novel the guy who was playing Santa Claus had written a few years earlier that had an eerily similar plot to Jon Bonet's killing? I vaguely remember something like that.

Mac

How do we know the Ramseys are innocent-- because you said so? It is, after all, an unsolved crime.

I don't think you need to take his/her word for it. Some parts do appear to be quite solved however...

topsecretk9

Sara

I can't say.

Tom Grey - Liberty Dad

Too many "to not too" typos:
old CBS News report to packed with

Saddam poll:
to early to tell


I like all three: to, two, and too, too.

Great stuff here, tho, too.

MayBee

Mac, you and Quiet Lurker don't know who killed JonBenet, and you don't know that the Ramseys didn't. At this point, few people know that as a fact. I don't know either.
I didn't mean to berate Quiet Lurker.

But our system is set up specifically so that people can and will talk about the evidence of a case, discuss the credibility of someone that holds themselves out as either the victim or the perpetrator of a crime, and yes even speculate on the reasonableness of their stories and claims. Its why we have open courts and a free press- so the average person can partake in and trust the system rather than being told what is and isn't true. Or off limits.

I welcome Quiet Lurker's presence, and even his or her discomfort with the topic. I do not welcome his/her false limits on discussions or being asked to you know, basically shut up.

Cecil Turner

I saw a news story yesterday (CNN?) where a former Boulder DA claimed he'd heard Karr was a match for the palm print on the wine cellar door. If so, or if there's other physical evidence to back up Karr's story, then the current DA's fixation makes sense. If not, it's hard to take him seriously as a suspect.

In any event, all scenarios are so strained that they're more likely to be proved by eliminating the others (a la Sherlock Holmes's famous maxim: "when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth").

SteveMG

former Boulder DA claimed he'd heard Karr was a match for the palm print on the wine cellar

A great example of how difficult it is to figure out what is up and what is down.

The evidence I've read is that the print was definitively shown to be from one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters who was proven to be elsewhere at the time of the crime.

Karr's palm print is on the door but no other prints from him found elsewhere? Not on the body? Not on the writing pad? Not on the ransom note? Not on the pen used to write the note? et cetera et cetera.

Okay, maybe he wore gloves (kinda' hard to write a note with gloves on) and just took them off one time and touched the door.

Small bizarre item: Jon Benet was fed a bowl of pineapple during the evening. The Ramseys said it wasn't them. Who fed it to JB? She was told to be wary of strangers because of her looks, beauty pageant appearances, et cetera. Hard to believe that she'd just go with a stranger and eat pineapple in the kitchen with them.

Possible I guess. But one has to really reach to include all of these pieces and conclude it was an outsider.

SMG

Bob

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4937378,00.html>Judge challenged expertise of man linking note to Karr

"Several other document examiners have said they are strongly leaning toward Baggett's conclusion based on a comparison of Karr's writing in a high school yearbook with the three-page note left on the Ramsey family stairway on the day JonBenet was reported missing.

In 2004, a federal magistrate in Maine also challenged Baggett's credentials and excluded his testimony in a civil case there.

Baggett said he was staking a large part of his reputation on his judgment that Karr wrote the ransom note.

He said there were at least 12 points of similarity between the ransom note and the yearbook entry."

windansea

bizarre case for sure

the ransom note may have been an attempt by the killer to throw police off, allow for a cleaner escape.

the handwriting of Karr and the note looked very similar to me (just saw it for a few seconds on TV)

if experts think so too then thats pretty damning evidence against Karr

clarice

Pheh--Handwriting analysis is one of the weakest of the forensic scientists; the guy who says it's similar is a crank; and more acknowledged experts scoff at his suggestion.

clarice

***ScienCES, not scientists*********

Gina Judd

I don't believe that he could have killed her. Patsy Ramsey denied purchasing the rope and tape that was used on her daughter. She did buy those items (or her husband did) with his credit card. I read this in a Congressional hearing transcript on Data Brokers who gather information and sell it. The data broker in question was charged under the RICO statute after being told for years that his business was legal by the government.

Did Karr also manage to steal Mr. Ramsey's VISA make a trip to the hardware store and make these purchases?

The focus is on him being a pedophile. Why then didn't he sexually assault her? Her autopsy report stated that there were no signs of recent sexual abuse but there were signs of chronic sexual abuse.

The Ramsey's were already parading her up and down runways for money, who knows what else they were charging interested parties to do with their little prize.

At any rate "chronic" means habitual, long term, over a period of time. Karr didn't have that kind of opportunity. They need to find the freak or freaks that did.

sure-lock

"There was also a theory in the book the young son was experimenting with a stun gun John Ramsey owned" (-topsecretk9)

This is too simplistic as a theory, begging more questions than it answers, yet leading me to wonder a) did the autopsy report ever determine conclusively these markings were in fact made by a stun gun; b) was it also proven JR in fact owned one; and c) what if any explanation was he able to offer for owning this?

Mimarin

Jonbenet was killed by her parents! However since they were too rich and white the media gave them a pass. The mythical outsider is a fabrication. Patsy died of guilt and stress. Why did O.J. Simpson instantly become guilty? How could he stab and hack to death two people(in the same house) and not get a scratch?
He won the damn criminal trial and the media and "justice" system found him guilty (civily) for the same crime? To this day he is PRESUMED GUILTY. But these two wealthy whites who KILLED their own daughter get sympathy? I know no one will be charged because the criminals are the parents!

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Wilson/Plame