Bush, McCain Et Al Reach Deal

From the AP:

WASHINGTON — The U.S. administration and Senate Republicans announced agreement Thursday on the interrogation and trial of suspects in the war on terror, clearing a major obstacle blocking legislation at the top of the Republican election-year agenda.

“We have a legislative framework that would allow terrorists to be brought to justice,” said National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, emerging from a meeting in the office of Majority Leader Bill Frist.

“The agreement that we’ve entered into gives the president the tools he needs to continue to fight the war on terror and bring these evil people to justice,” said Senator John McCain of Arizona, one of three rebellious Republican legislators who told U.S. President George W. Bush he couldn’t have the legislation the way he initially asked for it.

“There’s no doubt that the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions have been preserved,” McCain said, referring to international agreements that cover the treatment of prisoners in wartime.

Details of the agreement were sketchy.

I'll provide one detail - since Dems have been hiding behind St. John on this issue, they will have a hard time announcing at this late date that McCain lacks the integrity and judgment to be trusted.

And another detail - whether this is a victory for Bush or McCain, it is not a victory for Harry Reid and the Senate Dems.

Here is the Times coverage.

In related news - although we would not call it "torture", Brian Ross of ABC News reports that coercive interrogation works.  The NY Times had  a long piece on this in June 2005 (excerpts), from which I took away this:

- the experts think that the threat of physical coercion is a useful interrogation tactic but they offer few examples of torture itself providing actionable intelligence.

UPDATE:  Let's come back to the first point and let Digby explain why hiding behind McCain was not so shrewd:

The Republicans are now standing shoulder to shoulder having worked this whole thing out --- they are strong, they are tough, they are moral, and they are willing to work together to form a compromise that they can all live with. Aren't they great? This is why we should vote Republican.

Now watch this drive.

Ed Rogers on Hardball said Bush got to look both tough on terror and effective in bringing the senate along. Kweisi Mfume says McCain looks good to Democrats and independents and Bush looks good to Americans in general.

Can anyone in the know explain to me how letting McCain run with this torture debate benefitted the Democrats in any way?

Here's how the optics look to me:

McCain, the Republican rebel maverick, showed that Republicans are moral and look out for their troops.

Bush, the Republican statesman and leader, showed that he is committed to protecting Americans but that he is willing to listen and compromise when people of good faith express reservations about tactics.

The Democrats showed they are ciphers who don't have the stones to even say a word when the most important moral issue confronting the government is being debated.

It's a bipartisan consensus.

MORE CONSENSUS:  The Agonist:

...the Democrats we so weak-kneed there wasn't even any dissension. They just rolled over.

The Sideshow:

I'm so disgusted with the "Let's let the Republicans do it" Democrats that I might really puke. Write to them, write to them all, and ask them how in the world they can be so silent when the subject is fergodsakes torture.  I cannot believe they let this happen.  I can't believe, after all this time, they really thought they could trust any Republican to stand up for what's right and put a stop to this.  Didn't any of them even read the stupid McCain/Graham/ghost proposal?  Gah.  Read Digby, who appears to have moved beyond the teeth-gnashing phase to actual coherent sentences.

Echidne of the Snakes:

The Maverick:

That would be McCain. He's supposed to be the odd man out in the Republican party, the one who dares to disagree, nay, even challenge the rigid power structure of the party. But somehow nothing ever comes from these challenges. The wingnut power structure always gets its way and McCain ends up looking like a rebel, like an independent thinker, like a moderate. Like someone a Democrat could love.

It's a bad-cop-good-cop routine, and McCain is the good cop.  Too bad that the Democrats never learn this.

Great to see the Dem base getting energized in time for the election.  Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid - Ready to Lead!

IN SEARCH OF BETTER SLOGANS:  Here is a cheerier view of the Dem "strategy":

There is a possibility that in the past two weeks [while Bush and McCain were doing what will be described as the heavy lifting] the Democrats were able to devise their sixth iteration of a campaign slogan and strategy to roll out with less than 50 days to the election. Perhaps they could call it "Fifty States, Fifty Days...But Never Fifty Percent"? It's catchy, it's succinct, and it may well be accurate come November 8th.

Comments

[freaknik]

The Dems were absolutely horrible on this and deserve almost as much contempt for not doing as the Repubs deserve for doing.

So America is now officially in the torture business.

Osama was right that we are weak.

[Jane]

And you are an idiot.

[Terrye]

freaknick:

I know guys who went through more in their own military training than these people have to endure.

But hey, as long you can feel good about yourself we can't let something as silly and unimportant as the lives of thousands of innocent people get in the way.

[lurker]

We are in business only for the unlawful terrorists. We have remained strong and gotten stronger.

[freaknik]

Jane-you really are an ignorant slut.

Federalist Paper No. 8:

"No. 8

"The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free."

Stuff it, you cowards.

[lurker]

"The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free."

You are misinterpreting it, freaknik.

[owl]

I watched a long interview with Brian Ross (not exactly GOP) and he said the waterboarding WORKED. I have heard several retired generals say that everyone breaks within seconds/minutes with waterboarding.

It is not a matter of IF it works.....they have 14 locked up to prove it. It is a matter of some claiming superior morals plus it will supposedly protect us if France decides to capture our troops.

[lurker]

Being Nice Will Get Us Killed

Enough with the olive branches to the Islamofascists.

Written by a black.

[mcg]

freaknik, your idiocy knows no bounds. Given that Alexander Hamilton was an active participant in the bloodshed that won this country its independence, you can't possibly think he was against stripping one's enemies of life and liberty to achieve victory in a time of war. Federalist #8 refers to the stripping of the civil and political rights of a country's own citizens. He'd be turning in his grave to hear you're actually suggesting those rights ought to be extended to the country's sworn enemies who would be, but for our own intervention, actively engaged in its destruction.

[boris]

So, waterboarding a terrorist makes us less free?

Preventing attacks that murder Americans my the hundreds or thousands is cowardice?

New Dem campaign ad:

Don't vote for those cowardly Republicans !!! We have the courage to allow deadly attacks that murder your families ! We are brave enough to protect the terrorists right to privacy from storm trooper Republicans listenening in on their plots and making them tell us their secrets ! Vote Democrat ! Vote for the courage to die bravely for principles nobody in ther right mind actually understands !

[mcg]

Indeed. If it is cowardice to waterboard a high-level figure in Al Qaeda in order to obtain information about their plans to kill thousands of Americans---then please, paint my back yellow. I wil wear that stripe with pride.

[Semanticleo]

"So, waterboarding a terrorist makes us less free?"

No, 'Arbeit macht frei'.

[Jane]

I had a really interesting conversation with someone over the weekend. Their position was that if we are really serious, and this threat is as big as we believe it to be, why are we messing around? Why don't we just nuke them all and be done with it? What's with the half measures? Half measures don't work on people who want to die. Maybe it's the only way to deal with terrorists.

[lurker]

John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad

"
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John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad
By Andrew G. Bostom
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 29, 2004

Professor John Lewis Gaddis’ recent provocative analysis of the origins of “unilateralism” in American foreign policy highlights the pivotal role of John Quincy Adams. With candor and humility, Gaddis further reveals that his own contemporary assessment, “…is not a new interpretation. If you go back and read the famous Samuel Flagg Bemis, the very distinguished Yale diplomatic historian from half a century ago, Bemis was certainly making this argument about the importance of John Quincy Adams."

John Quincy Adams possessed a remarkably clear, uncompromised understanding of the permanent Islamic institutions of jihad war and dhimmitude. Regarding jihad, Adams states in his essay series,

“…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.”

Adams on Jesus Christ and Christianity, Relative to Muhammad and Islam

"And he [Jesus] declared, that the enjoyment of felicity in the world hereafter, would be reward of the practice of benevolence here. His whole law was resolvable into the precept of love; peace on earth – good will toward man, was the early object of his mission; and the authoritative demonstration of the immortality of man, was that, which constituted the more than earthly tribute of glory to God in the highest… The first conquest of the religion of Jesus, was over the unsocial passions of his disciples. It elevated the standard of the human character in the scale of existence…On the Christian system of morals, man is an immortal spirit, confined for a short space of time, in an earthly tabernacle. Kindness to his fellow mortals embraces the whole compass of his duties upon earth, and the whole promise of happiness to his spirit hereafter. THE ESSENCE OF THIS DOCTRINE IS, TO EXALT THE SPIRITUAL OVER THE BRUTAL PART OF HIS NATURE." (Adam's capital letters)….[pp. 267-268]

“In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Adam's capital letters)….Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant…While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.” [p. 269]

All of this influenced John Quincy Adams into establishing the Federal Republic that this country has become.

[Semanticleo]

"Maybe it's the only way to deal with terrorists."

From your mouth to Bush's ears.

[lurker]

No, from your mouth to John Quincy Adam's ears, ali-cleown.

"He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE."

Using John Quincy Adams' words, ali-cleown and feaknik have been poisoned.

[boris]

Stuff it, you cowards.

'Arbeit macht frei'

From your mouth to Bush's ears.

Whiney little crybabies lost another one. Pouty tantrums are music to my ears.

[lurker]

Eurabia, by Bat Ye'or

She saw this coming to fruition as Oriani Fallaci did.

[PeterUK]

Semanticleo,

"

"So, waterboarding a terrorist makes us less free?"

No, 'Arbeit macht frei'.

You really must stop using that cranial enema.

[Tom Maguire]

I have finally been goaded into verifying something I have believed for years, and for you youngsters, I saw the skit live; as I recall, we spent the afternon watching the glaciers recede. Then, as the pterodactyls circled gracefully overhead, we went in to watch SNL... but I digress. The correct quote is "Jane, you ingnorant misguided slut".

Glad to have cleared that up. And obviously, that was a very different Jane.

As to slippery slope arguments that today we are using coercive interogation techniques on terrorists who are not even signatories to the Geneva Convention but tomorrow we will be torturing Howard Dean, Paul Krugman, Markos Zuniga, and any other of Bush's poltical opponents - what's the frequency, Kenneth?

[Semanticleo]

Enlighten us oh, Bohhisattva, what have we lost?

[lurker]

So President Adams violated national law as per:

"Ackowledging his earlier position of strict neutrality, while Secretary of State, Pappas makes clear how as President (perhaps under the influence of Lafayette), Adams came to support the Greek cause (Pappas, Paul C. The United States and the Greek War for Independence, 1821-1828, New York, 1985, pp. 125-126.):"

“The case of the Greek frigates demonstrated once again America’s benevolent neutrality toward Greece. Motivated no doubt by philhellenic zeal, the United States government came to the Greek’s rescue in violation of the nation’s law and the international laws of neutrality. President Adams and members of the cabinet and of Congress enthusiastically helped Contostavlos [the Greek national seeking warships for his country] and cooperated in passing swiftly and discreetly a bill authorizing the government to purchase one of the Greek frigates. The American government also cooperated in postponing the purchase of the frigate so that Contostavlos could deal with the houses, which refused to compromise on their high demands. And finally, when Contostavlos was ready to sail with the frigate Hope to Greece, President Adams temporarily put aside neutrality to allow an armed ship to sail out of New York with American officers and sailors…”

[boris]

what have we lost?

Besides your marbles?

[Semanticleo]

"tomorrow we will be torturing Howard Dean, Paul Krugman, Markos Zuniga, and any other of Bush's poltical opponents -"

Why is this man laughing?

[Semanticleo]

Besides your marbles?

A marble for your soul.

Oops. I overbid.

[lurker]

ali-cleown, if we do it you way, here is what would have happened to our country had President Adams NOT used his executive power and authority to violate national law and international law.

Our own country would be subjected to dhimmitude.

"Vacalopoulos describes how jihad imposed dhimmitude under Ottoman rule provided critical motivation for the Greek Revolution (Vacalopoulos, A.E. Background and Causes of the Greek Revolution, Neo-Hellenika, Vol. 2, 1975, pp.54-55):"

[quote="“The Revolution of 1821 is no more than the last great phase of the resistance of the Greeks to Ottoman domination; it was a relentless, undeclared war, which had begun already in the first years of servitude. The brutality of an autocratic regime, which was characterized by economic spoliation, intellectual decay and cultural retrogression, was sure to provoke opposition. Restrictions of all kinds, unlawful taxation, forced labor, persecutions, violence, imprisonment, death, abductions of girls and boys and their confinement to Turkish harems, and various deeds of wantonness and lust, along with numerous less offensive excesses – all these were a constant challenge to the instinct of survival and they defied every sense of human decency. The Greeks bitterly resented all insults and humiliations, and their anguish and frustration pushed them into the arms of rebellion. There was no exaggeration in the statement made by one of the beys if Arta, when he sought to explain the ferocity of the struggle. He said: ‘We have wronged the rayas [dhimmis] (i.e. our Christian subjects) and destroyed both their wealth and honor; they became desperate and took up arms. This is just the beginning and will finally lead to the destruction of our empire.’ The sufferings of the Greeks under Ottoman rule were therefore the basic cause of the insurrection; a psychological incentive was provided by the very nature of the circumstances.”"]Vacalopoulos describes how jihad imposed dhimmitude under Ottoman rule provided critical motivation for the Greek Revolution (Vacalopoulos, A.E. Background and Causes of the Greek Revolution, Neo-Hellenika, Vol. 2, 1975, pp.54-55):[/quote]

[PeterUK]

"Enlighten us oh, Bohhisattva, what have we lost?"

In case you hadn't noticed Septicmtwo rather tall buildings in New York.

[Rick Ballard]

Peter,

It's a stupid contest. Freak's got the edge on lack of style but Tic's really moving ahead on solid bonehead stupidity - no surprise there. It will probably be decided based upon technique in the compulsory inanity section but both have some freestyle dumb moves still to complete.

It's very close and the tension is [YAWN}, pardon me, mounting.

[Semanticleo]

Thanks, Marmalard

[Abdul Jamoke]

I'd pick waterboarding over reading Freak & Semen's comments.

[Sweetie]

I don't get how McCain can say torture doesn't work when the biographical (co-written by McCain I believe) film of his time spent in the Hanoi Hilton DEMONSTRATED that it did achieve it's intended purpose: getting prisoners to cop to various war crimes. It's largely true that the confessors lied in these confessions but that's off point - the NV could care less if the confessions reflected the prisoners true beliefs.

Waterboard them. If they know nothing they'll lie and we'll waste our time running down hundreds of false leads.....and one or more valid leads that head off a terrorist strike. The vast majority of our military aviators have been waterboarded. They seem none the worse for wear.

[lurker]

And both freak and ali-cleown are so stupid that they would have no problems living under Shari'a law.

Even back when President John Quincy Adams was alive, people...were forced to "“There is no God but Allah; and where once their prayers had been addressed to Christ, they were now to ‘Mohammed, the prophet of Allah.’"

As per:

A. E. Vacalopoulos summarized the devastating impact of five centuries of Seljuk and Ottoman jihad campaigns in Asian Minor and the Balkans (Vacalopoulos, A.E. Origins of the Greek Nation-The Byzantine Period, 1204-1461, New Brunswick, N.J., 1970, pp. 61, 68; 72-73):

“At the beginning of the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks forced their way into Armenia and there crushed the armies of several petty Armenian states. No fewer than forty thousand souls fled before the organized pillage of the Seljuk host to the western part of Asia Minor. From the middle of the eleventh century, and especially after the battle of Malazgirt [Manzikurt] (1071), the Seljuks spread throughout the whole Asia Minor peninsula, leaving error, panic and destruction in their wake. Byzantine, Turkish and other contemporary sources are unanimous in their agreement on the extent of havoc wrought an the protracted anguish of the local population…[The Greek chronicler] Kydones described the fate of the Christian peoples of Asia Minor thus:

‘The entire region which sustained us, from the Hellespont eastwards to the mountains of Armenia, has been snatched away. They [the Turks] have razed cities, pillaged churches, opened graves, and filled everything with blood and corpses…Alas, too, they have even abused Christian bodies. And having taken away their entire wealth they have now taken away their freedom, reducing them to the merest shadows of slaves. And with such dregs of energy as remain in these unfortunate people, they are forced to be the servitors of the Turk’s personal comforts.’

“From the time the Ottoman Turks first set foot in Thrace under Suleiman, son of Orchan, the Empire rapidly disintegrated….From the very beginning of the Turkish onslaught under Suleiman, the Turks tried to consolidate their position by the forcible imposition of Islam. [The Ottoman historian] Sukrullah [maintained] those who refused to accept the Moslem faith were slaughtered and their families enslaved. ‘Where there were bells’, writes the same author, ‘Suleiman broke them up and cast them onto fires. Where there are churches he destroyed them or converted them into mosques. Thus, in place of bells there were now muezzins. Wherever Christian infidels were still found, vassalage was imposed upon their rulers. At least in public they could no longer say ‘kyrie eleison’ but rather “There is no God but Allah; and where once their prayers had been addressed to Christ, they were now to ‘Mohammed, the prophet of Allah.’ ”

[lurker]

No matter what we do to these terrorists and they are released, then they still have the intent of killing us if they could not convert us to Islam.

[clarice]

Boris, the new position sounds like Dukakis'hypothetical response to his wife's rape carried to a global argument to me.

[boris]

One can almost hear the courage to die votes evaporating in the sunlight.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Leo: "Bodhisattva".

It really ruins your intellectual pretentions when you consistently misspell them.

[Semanticleo]

Colorado;
It really ruins your intellectual pretension
when you consistenly mistake typos for mispells.

[lurker]

No difference between typos and misspells!

Even ali-cleown doesn't know how to misspell!

[Semanticleo]

Lurker;

Just because you've suddenly discovered
History, I am not compelled to dumbdown
to your 19th century context.

[Semanticleo]

"Even ali-cleown doesn't know how to misspell!"

Your idiocy is only outdistanced by your ignorance.

[Rick Ballard]

Challenge him to a debate on his knowledge of Bodhisattva, Tic. You might be able to teach him something.

[lurker]

We should be giving thanks to John Quincy Adams for having the fortitude in establishing the Federal Republic for this country because of his full understanding of Jihad and Dhimmitude.

And, btw, the history of John Quincy Adams is certainly most applicable to today's GWOT; therefore, your so-called "19th Century Context" is smartup to today's events.

And you intentionally chose to ignore the history....

[lurker]

ali-cleown, your intentional ignorance, complicated by your idiocy, of the 19th century history will bite you back.

[Semanticleo]

"You might be able to teach him something."

That would qualify as an archetypal event,
Marmalard.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

More, perhaps, to the point: my running problem with the whole torture thing is the way the arguement trivializes the word. What happened to McCain in Vietnam is unquestionably torture. On the other hand, not having a private bathroom, around here, is called "dorm life", and some of the other "tortures" are called "lap dances" everywhere and cost $20 for one song.

I propose, as a rule, that anything we're willing to do to our own people in SERE class is not "torture" under the terms of the 3rd Common Convention.

Which, by the way, would include waterboarding as permissible.

[boris]

ok

[PeterUK]

Rick,
I must confess to a frisson of apathy at the Dolt's Handicap between Septic and Freakwit.
There should be a steward's inquiry,it looks like Septic has been connecting the bolts in her neck to the power supply again.

[Specter]

This has been fun to read. Freaky and Tic try to use history to prove a point. Lurker slams them with actualy interpretation. Then tic claims that using history isn't fair. Seems just like a democrat - no direction - just bouncing back and forth.

[Rick Ballard]

Charlie,

I agree that SERE training tactics could be the foundation of what is allowable. I think the every JAG lawyer should go through it prior to be allowed to comment on interrogation techniques. Lindsey Graham first - and perhaps repeatedly.

[Jane]

I saw the skit live

Me too, and that Jane went to Wellesley, where Hillary also went if I recall correctly.

I didn't remember the "misguided" part which is not surprising since it was the '70's and all that.

Did you also see the Claudine Longet invitational?

[lurker]

SERE Training as per Wikipedia:

Techniques:

The actual techniques used in the school have been classified by the US government, but several official sites exist to give a general overview of the curricula. The training has been widely reported to provide a realistic simulation of harsh and abusive interrogation techniques. The SERE program has been reported to involve the following elements:

* extreme temperatures
* waterboarding - being tied to a board with the feet higher than the head and having water poured into the nose
* noise stress - playing very loud and dissonant music and sound effects. Recordings have been reported to include babies wailing inconsolably, cats meowing, and irritating music (including a record by Yoko Ono)[1]
* sexual embarrassment
* religious dilemma - being given the choice of seeing a religious book desecrated or revealing secrets to interrogators.
* flag desecration
* prolonged cramped or restrictive confinement
* sleep deprivation/starvation
* excrement familiarization/humiliation
* mock execution
* overcoming food aversion (eating bugs, roadkill, dumpster diving, urine drinking)
* height/water/enclosed spaces
* physical beating
* "stress inoculation"

[PeterUK]

Spector,

"Then tic claims that using history isn't fair. Seems just like a democrat - no direction - just bouncing back and forth."

Of course it isn't fair to someone born in 1994.

[lurker]

Thanks, Spector! :)

Ah, PUK, the year of the contract with the public in 1994 and failed miserably?

[Sue]

John McCain was tortured for propaganda purposes. The NV knew he had no actionable intelligence to give them. There is a difference in harsh interrogation measures and toruture. Hypothermia is being used in American jails even as I type. The drunk tank is the coldest place on earth, or so I've heard, not having first hand experience. What happened to John McCain and other POWS (who, BTW, were POWs and were under GC protection, for all the good it did them) were tortured. Being forced to listen to Chili Peppers is a minor inconvenience. Sleep deprevation doesn't harm you (ask any college age kid, they'll attest to that). If people, including McCain, would stop using the term torture so loosely, this debate wouldn't get so sidetracked.

[clarice]

Make them watch Oprah 24/7 or share close quarters with a passel of US tenneagers equipped with boom boxes.

[clarice]

********Make them watch Oprah 24/7 or share close quarters with a passel of US teenagers equipped with boom boxes and heavy metal or hip hop CDs.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I would note that whatever physical beatings might be in SERE training, they wouldn't be very severe, since it's very difficult to give a severe beating without doing damage that leaves marks. But even then, it's not been that long since beatings with a broomstick were considered normal procedure in military schools.

[lurker]

Heh, since ali-cleown is so young that we can make them share quarters with a passel of US teenagers, including freak and ali-cleown equipped with boom boxes and heavy metal of hip hop CDs.

Wouldn't that be WILD!!!!

[lurker]

Another deal in the making????

Check Captain's Quarters:

Palestinian Government To Recognize Israel?

Has Bush given Abbas a carrot?

We'll see.

[Enlightened]

Hmmm. I'm not sure about the PA to recognize Israel....

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913681211&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[SteveMG]

Me too, and that Jane went to Wellesley, where Hillary also went if I recall correctly.

Me three.

They were imitating James J. Kilpatrick and Shane Alexander who had a point/counter-point segment on "60 Minutes" for about a month or two.

Interesting that Kilpatrick is a true Southern gentleman (still alive) and a superb writer but he did get into an actual physical tussle with the late and quite heroic Carl Rowan after an episode of the old show "Agronsky & Co."

Rowan was quite an acerbic liberal; but a truly great man who overcame enormous obstacles in his life. Unfortunately, he was very bitter near the end of his life.

No, this won't be on the final.

SMG

[Spurlock]

Ackroyd said "Jane, you ignorant slut," "Jane, you ignorant misguided slut," and "Jane, you poor misguided scrag." It wasn't just a one-time thing.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78iupdate.phtml
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78oupdate.phtml

[Other Tom]

The joy increases exponentially. Cleo has got into his cups very early, and poor Freaknick remains incoherent. What unites them is that they are consistent losers in a democratic society.

Meantime, all of us fascist hyenas can rejoice yet again. Hurrah! Hurrah! We get to torture them! Soon we'll be coming for all of you dissenters, and the chambers will echo with your screams. The lights have gone out all over America!

There is, however, one lingering problem: we still have to deal with those 11 million misguided people who, for reasons no one can fathom, are still willing to risk all to make a life in this hellhole of repression.

There is just no rest for the ruling party...

[Daniel DiRito]

I've got to hand it to the Democrats. The strategy of allowing the Republicans to "thrash out" their differences on the treatment and prosecution of detainees has played out exactly as planned...for the Republicans. Don't let anyone convince you that you can go to the well too often...that is if you are a Republican and your opponent is a fully inept Democratic Party.

Amidst a trend of favorable polling data and a firestorm of speeches by the President to refocus the voting public on their fear of terrorism, the Democrats stood in the background for the past two weeks and watched what the GOP will call the difficult work of creating legislation that preserves our commitment to civil liberties while at the same time providing our determined President with the essential tools needed to pursue those who seek to kill us all.

OK, perhaps I'm being too harsh. There is a possibility that in the past two weeks the Democrats were able to devise their sixth iteration of a campaign slogan and strategy to roll out with less than 50 days to the election. Perhaps they could call it "Fifty States, Fifty Days...But Never Fifty Percent"? It's catchy, it's succinct, and it may well be accurate come November 8th.

Read more here:

www.thoughttheater.com

[dblaiseb]

Regarding that SNL spoof, didn't

"...jumping from bed to bed with the frequency of a cheap ham radio..."

figure in there somewhere? I think that snappy Ackroyd delivery was helped by all the bumpys on the set back in those days.

And one more thing, having seen matrimonial attorneys in action, I think it's a threat to the Republic to leave the definition of torture up to lawyers.

[clarice]

Yeah,OT, I've been scanning the papers for signs that folks are hopping on rafts cobbled together out of cigar boxes and paddling theu shark infested waters to get to Venezuela or Iran or Zimbabwe. Still haven't found a single one.

[Gary Maxwell]

Heading for Venezuela? Are you kidding me? For what to get shot by Castro's asshole buddy? Look for an increase in migration to places like Turks and Caico real soon. Good and decent Venezuleans who cant stand it under the boot any more.

[lurker]

Iraqis using kidnap victims as bombers

So this is what it would be like living under them?

[Chants]

"[H]aving seen matrimonial attorneys in action"

*Cough*

Buried 60 feet below the surface of the ground, deep down, we're not that bad.

[Gary Maxwell]

By the way is anyone the least bit cynical about Charlie Rangel and Nancy Pelosi calling out Chavez publicly? Think they are scared shitless that the Anti Americanism bullshit hits the fan with the American public? those two aint afraid to act partisan and have sounded identical to Chavez in the past. So much so that it scared the bejabbers out of them.

I repeat my call for how rove was able to get Ahmas madasahatter and Chavez to speak so forcefully in NY 45 days before an election. Its obvious a flaw in McCain Feingold that he was allowed to do so in such a partisan manner so we can just disregard the November result and call for a "do over."

[Lew Clark]

Here's an idea. We give the prisoners the option of spilling their guts or listening to freak and cleo explain why they think "everything" is wrong. Two hours with the dynamic duo and they'll crack for sure. Then we can but the waterboards and other stuff away.

And just let the Dems complain. When we are reeducating these poor misguided souls using two of their best and brightest as tutors.

[clarice]

Scrappleface reports the RNC has offered to fund a Chavez and Ihmamadjihadi speaking tours throughout the country.

[clarice]

Here:

"GOP Funds Ahmadinejad-Chavez Speaking Tour
by Scott Ott

"The Republican National Committee (RNC) today offered to fund a coast-to-coast U.S. speaking tour featuring Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, in the weeks leading up to November’s Congressional elections.

The offer comes in the wake of two days of public remarks by the two foreign leaders before the United Nations, the Council on Foreign Relations and U.S. news media. Their diplomatic pronouncements included…
– denying the Holocaust,
– calling the U.S. president “the devil“,
– praying at the U.N. for the return of Islam’s fabled 12th Imam,
– praising Cuban dictator Fidel Castro,
– insisting any nation has the right to develop nuclear technology,
– portraying the United States as the locus of evil in the modern world, and
– plugging Noam Chomsky’s book “Hegemony or Survival: America’s Quest for Global Dominance.”

“President Bush can talk about his national security plan and foreign policy all day long,” said an unnamed RNC spokesman, “But no one makes a more compelling case than the duo of Mahmoud and Hugo. We want to make sure every American has an opportunity to hear these important world leaders.”

The Republican source said sponsoring the pre-election Ahmadinejad-Chavez speaking tour was also a way of “reaching across the aisle to help our colleagues in the Democrat party to get their message out, so the American voter can make an informed decision.”"
Scrappleface

[Cecil Turner]

Instapundit has slightly more detail on the agreement. Basically, tribunals are to be authorized and at least some CIA interrogation approved. Works for me.

[Tom Maguire]

I repeat my call for how rove was able to get Ahmas madasahatter and Chavez to speak so forcefully in NY 45 days before an election.

Good point. And who knew Karl's mind ray could penetrate the Pope's mitre and get him to provoke a display of Islamic insanity, beg pardon, calls for dialogue and tolerance.

[clarice]

Will McCain-Feingold prevent Soylent from doing the S/S/Rove stuff before the election. Only he can do this justice.

[Cecil Turner]

repeat my call for how rove was able to get Ahmas madasahatter and Chavez to speak . . .

[Obi-Wan voice over] "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."

Kofi: "They must be allowed to speak."
Rangel and Pelosi: "You weak minded fool. He's using an old Jedi mind trick."

Kossacks: "They must be allowed to speak."
Glenn: "Heh."

[clarice]

Pretty good, Cecil.Now we need an illustration.

[cathyf]

No, no, clarice, you know that cartoons cause violence! (And it's the cartoonist's fault.)

[clarice]

*smacking palm to forehead*

[Chants]

It's often a good stragegy to not in rebuttal repeat the opponent's talking points.

It is also a good strategy to acknowledge one's weak points, quietly but firmly.

It is quite another to boldy denounce the base's conventional wisdom, loudly and with a big exclamation point. That's a formula for division.

The middle road (quiet but firm, Bill Clinton style) would have seemed best.

I think the gamble is that in reaching for the middle, the ones pissed will still vote for them anyway. But they just pushed more in the middle to the right.

This liberal denouncement makes little sense to me.

[sam]

09/21/06 AP: Torture reaches new depths in Iraq
Torture in Iraq is reportedly worse now than it was under deposed president Saddam Hussein, the United Nations' chief anti-torture expert said Thursday.

It used to be that the republican answer to every question was "more Jesus, more guns". Now? Add one
more to the list: "more Jesus, more guns, more torture".

[clarice]

A cite would be helpful , Sam. I think I hurt Brit refer to this story earlier. He said the claim was by an Austrian professor who never was in Iraq, a man who based his report on people outsie Iraq and that he blamed the torture on the militias and gangs,

_______

BTW another fruitcake has left the CIA and opened his mouth, revealing wy the place should have been turned into a nice condo development years ago.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34825

[clarice]

***HEARD, not hurt**********

[clarice]

My typing is worse than ever. I just read another of those health stories that say smoking can increase your chance of getting HIV. I'm really trying to smoke with a condom on my cigarette, but the tip always starts smoking making it hard to see the keyboard.......%^)

[cathyf]

Gee thanks, clarice, now I gotta go put out my mind's eye with an icepick!

[clarice]

HEH! Oh please don't!! There are not enough logical people to go around.

[Soylent Red]

I laugh at McCain-Feingold, and fart in its general direction.

[noah]

The disastrous decision of the SCOTUS to grant common article III status to AQ prisoners is forcing the poor dears in Congress to chose between their moral vanity and the safety of the nation. Tough shit assholes.

[Bob]

Wow did I miss a heated afternoon.

Looks like cleo and the freak, are off their meds again! It understandable since yesterday was just another "low point" in the life of a moonbat.

let's see, we have the Bush McCain deal, the Libby case seems to be now falling apart, and their super hero Chavez just got Nancy Pelosi to call him a thug, Columbia U. drops it's invitation to the Moron Mahmoud... all this on the heals of the WHO dropping it's ban on DDT.

So I guess it's time for the http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LorieByrd/2006/09/22/moonbat_meltdown_at_the_altar_of_the_un>Moonbat meltdown at the altar of the U.N.

"Ahmadinejad ended his speech by praying for the reappearance of the 12th Imam and the end of this world. Incredibly, most all major American news outlets failed to even include his prayer for the apocalypse as part of their reports. (I am sure that if George Bush had ended his speech by praying for the Rapture and for Christ to return to rule the world, it wouldn’t have rated a mention either, though.)"

They can at least have some hope, that it'll all be over soon...

[Terrye]

sam:

What a joke. Saddam tortures people for decades and NOW people are worried about torture in Iraq. hypocrites.

[Other Tom]

Tradesports GOP house majority at 55. The beat goes on.

[Patton]

Freaknik and his ilk present a completely false choice.

They claim using stress interrogation techniques (what they call torture) will cause our enemies to do the same things to our soldiers/civilians when they are captured/kidnapped.

So lets see what we would prefer:

Current enemy actions when someone is captured:
Decapitated, disemboweled, tongue cut out, privates cut off, drug behind vehicles and corpses strung up on bridges.

Freaknik fears that the enemy will turn away from these techniques and use
Waterboarding to strike fear into the captured (a technique our troops are trained and prepared for), use of heat, cold, stress, lack of sleep all closely supervised and under a doctors supervision meant NOT to do physical harm or permanent damage to the individual but make them more susceptible to interview techniques.

Wow Freaknik, I see your point...NOT.

So Freaknik, which would you choose??

[ed in texas]

(looks around room, listening...)
"...So, you guys getting together for Thanksgiving this year?"

[lurker]

I read somewhere that Baghdad will have trenches, brems, etc., surrounding itself along with checkpoints to force insurgents through those checkpoints.

Like they did for Fallujah and it was a sounding success.

May be a success for Baghdad...eventually. It seems that ten percent of Iraq is being hit by the insurgents while 90 percent are stable.

[Bob]

Oh looky here over on the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2194928>DU... the moonbats are getting really mad...

I love the opener:

"Pelosi, Rangel, Clinton you make castigating comments about a man who speaks the prevailing sentiments of the entire damn world and instead you’d rather sanctify the fart joking war criminal in our own oval office."

maybe cleo and freaky can go over there and offer up their "world" of ideas. Then again maybe that's were they get theirs!

[Pa]

Part of the lefts problem is they do not see this as a war, a war we could lose. If you actually in a fight for you very life, the life of you children, the Conventions be damned.

Your going to pull hair, gouge eyes, do whatever to survive and worry about the rules later. You want to be the victor so you can write and enforce the rules of a civilized society. If we are defeated, the rules won't matter because the enemy has no use for them and tossed them aside long ago.

Playing basketball, you can afford to look down at those that break the rules because both teams are going to survive, win or lose, but in hand to hand with an enemy bent on killing you, no one cares if you fought dirty to stay alive.
Freaknik and his ilk would reprimand a soldier for pulling an enemies hair during hand to hand combat.

[Bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6yndO3ypFA&eurl=>What Happened To The Democrats?

enjoy!

[Great Banana]

Rick Ballard:

"I think the every JAG lawyer should go through it prior to be allowed to comment on interrogation techniques."

Hey, I was a JAG lawyer and I would allow much worse than what happens at SERE training. Not all of use were/are as bad as some of the nitwits.

- GB

[PeterUK]

"Part of the lefts problem is they do not see this as a war, a war we could lose. If you actually in a fight for you very life, the life of you children, the Conventions be damned".

Sadly,they do,unfortunately,they see themselves,Ahmafiveandime,Hugo "No tongue please Cindy" Chaves,the Democratic party,al Qaeda,Hezbollah,Hamas,assorted throat slitting scum,the UN and the rest of the world on the other side.
They not only know you can lose,they want you to lose,to that end they are doing thir Quisling best to ensure that you do.