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September 05, 2006

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clarice

Clinton on Larry King saying"I would hunt down Bin Laden if I could... but I'm tied down at my desk with other more--yowww--poressing matters.

clarice

*pressing*******

zis

Questions:

'spot and recruit agents for the agency' does this mean other CIA operations officers or spies/informants?

Greece. UN headquarters/Greek desk at State or CIA?

NOC or Operations Officer? NOCs are not operations officers. Non official cover is common and it is common to have the identities leaked. Operations Officers are field operatives, not managers in an office?

COFS?

Joint task force? Which countries and how bad did Plame leak those?

'Vanity Fair' was an article, she admits to being an operations officer paramiltarily trained. This is confirmed by Larry and Jim. There could not be better confirmation in intelligence than those who went to school(farm) with her. Day after the article 10 operations officers are assassinated in Iraq.


The Foley assassination in Jordan same time Plame was working there? Another assassination of someone working for a company that was funded by CIA?

jerry

Sue, Wilson talked on CNN and to Moyers before the war (the links are on the KOS Plame timeline), Clarice may be correct about the "Scowcroftian" containment position, but Wilson does talk about the Niger frauds on CNN before the war and says that the public is being mislead into war to Moyers.

Bob, I read the WSJ but don't always agree with their editorial page.

Interesting stuff mentioned by zis.

JM Hanes

Clarice:

"I think it may well have been done by Grossman to protect his bosses."

I'm not sure there are any lines that straight here, and Grossman has to be the most conflicted guy in the whole saga:

Ideologically he's a neocon -- working for both President & Powell/Armitage. Armitage despises Cheney/Libby (which may explain why Libby asked Grossman for info?). His pal(s?) Wilson(Plame?) desperately wants in at the State Dept. but State wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole before, during or after the boondoggle mission. Not only does Grossman have feet inside opposing camps, (& knows more than should about Wilson & Plame at the CIA?) he's got a life-long career at State to salvage in the likely event of a Kerry victory (& potential French Ambassador in Wilson) at the polls.

In short, Grossman was essentially faced with proving he was on everybody's side, when they were all warring with each other. He doesn't even have to be a bad guy to be deep into a dung pile.

Sue

but Wilson does talk about the Niger frauds on CNN before the war

Is there a transcript of him talking about them on CNN? If so, would you mind posting it here? I don't care to go over to Kos. If the answer is no, I'll see if I can find it elsewhere.

clarice

JMH, Interesting. But TS and AJ are being to persuade me that the request for the second edition of the INR had no real purpose that I can see except to deflect attention from Armitage's chat with Woodward. I could be wrong. Persuade me.

And to date the only source we have for the 1 X 2X 6 red herring is the (I know) Truthout article saying Grossman was the source. Now, that could have been Wilson saying that to Truthout cover for someone else.Or it could be no more than Truthout's normal B.S. made out of thin air.

Still, we are stuck with the fact that of all the players only Grossman had a close relationship with Wilson AND Plame, and that relationship may not have been known to the proseutor.

clarice

How inventive, Jerry! I did recall the Moyer's interview on the eve of war, and not a damned word then was said about Niger..I stand on my word that not until after the May 2003 meeting (minutes vanished) did Wilson open up his mouth about Niger.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:2xIEtXbPsRMJ:www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_wilson.html+Bill+Moyers+Joseph+Wilson+interview&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1>The late blossoming of Wilson

Sue

I found it, Jerry.

what he did was neither selfish nor reckless

You got that part right. Here is is exact quotes...

Hi, Renay. How are you.

Well, you know what it's like when you go into court. A prosecutor comes up with some evidence that is obviously false, it casts doubt on every other bit of evidence that he produces. And I think it's safe to say that the U.S. government should have or did know that this report was a fake before Dr. ElBaradei mentioned it in his report at the U.N. yesterday.

Well, the report I saw said that the Brits were involved. Maybe it was the British that passed this report on. I don't know who else might have been involved, but I can tell you this: The report in "The Washington Post" today said -- quoted a U.S. official as saying, "we just fell for it."

That's just not good enough. Either he's being disingenuous, or he shouldn't be drawing a government paycheck.

I have no idea. I'm not in the government. I would not want to be doing damage control on this. I think you probably just fess up and try to move on and say there's sufficient other evidence to convict Saddam of being involved in the nuclear arms trade. But Dr. ElBaradei yesterday was pretty clear. He doesn't see that this is happening.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0303/08/cst.07.html>CNN March 2003

I'm not sure how we managed to go to war, not after the persuasive arguments that Wilson made, pre-invasion, for not doing so.

Lurker

And Vanity Fair interviewed Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson?


hhhmmmm

JM Hanes

Let's hang onto our collective hats, because while the New York Times editorial mentioned above is a step forward on the long road back to making sense, they've now got Cheney behesting the INR memo!

Sue

They have had their sights on Cheney ever since they didn't get Rove.

cathyf
...a WH strategy to respond to Wilson (that came to involve his wife, though most details of this remain secret)...
jerry, do you have any idea how nuts this sounds? Look, this is the internet where we can't even be sure whether or not you are a dog, and we're supposed to take your word for it that you know all about some secret conspiracy?

Last year my husband's department recruited for a physics professor. When you run academic searches you get the occasional nutcase application. This time, it was an applicant who explained a huge gap in his resume by claiming that he had been doing "secret research for the White House." We all got a good laugh out of it. (We had a list of possible physics topics that the WH might be interested in. You know, the solar neutrino problem, Bose-Einstein Condesates, yeah, sure, the White House is intimately involved in physics research...)

JM Hanes

Clarice:

"Persuade me."

Have to give you a rain check on that one till I've really worked something out. It occurs to me, however, that Grossman, himself, might have realized he'd been sitting on a bombshell of his own making.

clarice

Sue, you understate that March CNN interview. Baradei said the docs were forgeries, Wilson talks about his knowledge of Niger and says not a single word about the Mission or what he later claimed to have (not) found!!!!

If he ever had an opportunity pre-invasion to raise this, it was in that interview, wan't it?

Jerry, jerry , how kind of you to make our case.

boris

might have realized

All anyone is saying at this point is Grossman has plenty reason to spin. Your supposition might seem less malicious than covering for Armitage leaking a confidence, but malice isn't really the point. Motive to spin is and yours is just one more possible reason to.

Sue

If he ever had an opportunity pre-invasion to raise this, it was in that interview, wan't it?

He didn't raise the issue, not until it was pretty certain nothing tangible would be found in Iraq. And he had a direct pipeline to what was not being found. And that pipeline was his wife. Yeah, he was brave alright.

clarice

Yes. As late as June 14, 2003 (EPIC) he was still saying we might find Wilson had nuclear weapons.

Extraneus

Brave with his wife's cover, that's for sure. Selfless, even.

clarice

OOPS***he was still saying we might find SADDAM had nuclear weapons.**********

maryrose

OT:
On Hardball Chris and Company have dems making sweeping gains in November. All election coverage today. Gergen was on touting possible wins. They feel sure Allen is going to lose in Virginia. Talk about moonbats. Brown ahead of DeWine in Ohio with 4 point margin of error 46 to 40. DeWine will win hands down as will Blackwell. They believe Chafee will lose in his primary in Rhode Island.

topsecretk9

In short, Grossman was essentially faced with proving he was on everybody's side, when they were all warring with each other. He doesn't even have to be a bad guy to be deep into a dung pile.

Posted by: JM Hanes | September 06, 2006 at 11:27 AM


JMH is right on. Grossman had to do a lot and say a lot to different people and make them all think he was on their side.

Sue

You know, it is kind of weird that MSM hasn't picked up the story of what Val did. Do a search on Google News. Be surprised.

topsecretk9

--Joint task force? Which countries and how bad did Plame leak those?

'Vanity Fair' was an article, she admits to being an operations officer paramiltarily trained. This is confirmed by Larry and Jim. There could not be better confirmation in intelligence than those who went to school(farm) with her. Day after the article 10 operations officers are assassinated in Iraq.


The Foley assassination in Jordan same time Plame was working there? Another assassination of someone working for a company that was funded by CIA?

Posted by: zis | September 06, 2006 at 11:04 AM--

OK, in the last few months there have been lots of intriguing little odd comments alluding to this sort of thing and include "brewsers million", that she intended to leak, political, leak...

boris

Grossman had to do a lot and say a lot to different people and make them all think he was on their side

Yeah poor guy was juggling too many chainsaws, ooops sorry Libby.

If Val was super secret WTF is she doing in the memo? Twice. Nah, something's fishy.

Cecil Turner

Operations Officers are field operatives, not managers in an office?

After searching the CIA's job placement ads, it appears they use the term "operations officer" for a variety of positions, including some in the field . However, this one is the only one where the job description appears to be close:

The Staff Operations Officer (SOO) guides, coordinates and supports overseas intelligence collection. To do this, SOO's have a thorough understanding of operations in general and specifically in their developed areas of expertise such as terrorism, counterproliferation or a geographic region. In essence, SOO's are the field's representative at headquarters who ensure that operations in their assigned areas are run safely and smoothly and continue to be productive. The SOO briefs senior management on operational cases, programs and individual agents. [emphasis added]
It also appears to have more variance in responsibility than a similar military specialty (i.e., needn't be a relatively senior officer).

On the INR rewrite, it looks to me like a fairly standard repackaging of a memo (giving the boss an up-to-date summary), except it wasn't really updated. Not sure what to make of that, but it sure appears to be the source for Armitage, and thence Novak. Which again makes Wilson/Plame's meeting habits the source of the security leak, and this entire case much ado about nothing.

Larry

I would just like to thank everyone on this blog.I have read every post and am in awe of all knowledge here.

Posted by: jean | September 06, 2006 at 07:15 AM

My thanks and awe, too, but the brilliant commentary is only icing on the cake. I hang out here because this is where all the hot women are.

maryrose

And we all look hot in earmuffs!

Rocco

I think there’s a very good reason the date of the http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_1.php>memo was changed from June 10 to July 7, 2003. In keeping with the Scowcroftian theory, the plot to use Wilson to discredit Bush was hatched in May. http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unmovic/2003/0506missing.htm>Kristof writes on May 6…

“I’m told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president's office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger. In February 2002, according to someone present at the meetings, that envoy reported to the C.I.A. and State Department that the information was unequivocally wrong and that the documents had been forged

I think that memo was requested because Kristof mentioned that envoy reported to the CIA and State Department. that the information was unequivically wrong, blah, blah…blah!

This memo summarizes what we have been able to discover about the role Ambassador Joe Wilson played in the Niger/Iraq uranium story. Especially the allegations that INR played a role in his early 2002 trip to Niger and the (non) dissemination of reporting on what he learned

If someone in the State Department knew Wilson was going to unload on Bush on July 6, 2003, in The New York Times, The Washington Post and Meet The Press, they’d also know the boss would be pretty upset about the accusations and want some answers. That someone in the State Department changed the date to July 7, 2003 to place the blame elsewhere.

Whether Valerie was NOC or Classified has nothing to do with the reason that memo was written. It was written on June 10, 2003. I believe Novak didn’t speak with Armitage until July 8. I also believe the memo needs a good fisking!

clarice

Very good, Rocco. That's another distinct possibility.But why not just send up the memo with it's original date and a cover letter, indicating that some questions may be raised per the Kristof piece and the memo may be of use.

topsecretk9

I hang out here because this is where all the hot women are.

Posted by: Larry | September 06, 2006 at 05:32 PM

You know it! Ear Muffs and all!

topsecretk9

Very good, Rocco. That's another distinct possibility.But why not just send up the memo with it's original date and a cover letter, indicating that some questions may be raised per the Kristof piece and the memo may be of use.


NOTICE...Grossman requested this memo because the OVP were asking questions -- ***SO HE SAID***, BUT he did not SHARE OR PASS on the July 10th memo, he just supposedly passed on the contents "VERBALLY" to Libby...it wasn't till this memo was REDATED THAT it was faxed to Powell on AF and shared and then faxed to the OVP too....

NO WONDER LIBBY DISPUTES WHAT GROSSMAN "VERBALLY" TOLD HIM...

topsecretk9

Or that Grossman DID TELL him anything.

clarice

You mean JUNE 10, don't you?

boris

The assignment of the memo(s) to the behest of Cheney or Libby appears as dishonest as the claim Cheney behested Joe's mission. There's something distinctly phoney about the memos never actually going to OVP and repeatedly "outing" Joe's wife. Not claiming Grossman spilled the beans based on pre memo personal knowledge then spread the info as far and wide as possible in a "classified" document meant to provide plausible deniability, but ... it would 'splain some stuff Lucy.

topsecretk9

Clarice...I have a hard time articulating what I mean...let me try again (and maybe JMH will understand my baffle-gab and put it into earth people terms if I fail again)

Grossman said he requested "the" MEMO (June 10) because Libby asked some questions --- Yeah (sarcasm), Grossman's memo (June 10) really didn't address any question Libby asked, it got senior State up to snuff in a State CYA fashion

---BUT that JUNE 10 memo was never shared with OVP -- Grossman said he briefed Libby "orally" about the memo ( sarcasm - in a room full of people)...but Grossman never faxed, personally delivered, federally expressed a copy of that supposed senior OVP requested memo....

it wasn't till this memo was REDATED (to July) till it was Sent to the WH or WH people...

NO WONDER LIBBY DISPUTES WHAT GROSSMAN "VERBALLY" TOLD HIM...

Again...Grossman took a page out Wilson's playbook, when asked by FBI he said he requested the INR at OVP and Libby's "behest"/ request ..and again, does it not seem strange, in the words of Wilson -- if you are senior enough to ask, senior enough to get an answer --- that Grossman did not personally deliver a copy of the June memo -- that supposedly LIBBY REQUESTED?

topsecretk9

Boris...yes, you are right...same old typical Wilson Bullshit

MayBee

it wasn't till this memo was REDATED (to July) till it was Sent to the WH or WH people...

True, it is then sent to Powell when he is in the company of WH people (Armitage faxed it to Powell on the Africa trip, right). So there are WH witnesses to see this "new" information coming to Powell from State.


Rocco

OK...sheer speculation here but picture this. The president and his staff are aboard a flight to Africa the day after Wilson's brutal media blitz. (And Bush's birthday...Happy Birthday Mr President) The timing was meant to catch Bush offguard.

Someone's watching Meet the Press on one TV, Cheney's scribbling notes in the border of Wilson's op-ed by the window seat and someone's reading the Washington Post to the president. They're shellshocked and I would think if someone handed them that INR Memo dated June 10th, they'd want to know why they were just hearing about it a month later, July 7?

maybe...


JM Hanes

Well, I'll give it a shot, tops.

Libby to Grossman: What the hell do we know about this guy?

Grossman: Gee, I have no idea, but I'll see what I can find out.*

[*Note to self: Oh shit. Better check out what we know about Wilson.]

clarice

Yes, Rocco. I see it pretty much the same way. And then that yutz Hadley I think decided it was a "mistake" to use those 16 words and voila BUSH LIED..

JM Hanes

Rocco:

Works for me!

Rocco

Who's stovepiping who?

nite all

NARCISO

Of course, this tale , conflicts with Susskind's account in "One Percent
Solution" where Rolfe Mowatt-Larson,
a former Army Ranger COS station in
Moscow & Beijing: most recently DOE's
chief of security, was Plame's boss.
They also ignore the Hansen & DGI
revelations of her status.

topsecretk9

Exactly Rocco -- State, playing dumb to the WH while they had every bit of it.

and

--True, it is then sent to Powell when he is in the company of WH people (Armitage faxed it to Powell on the Africa trip, right). So there are WH witnesses to see this "new" information coming to Powell from State.--

Yes...it was sent to Powell, who was seen flipping it around like a rolled up newspaper ready to swat a fly, and then shared with Flieshser (sp, lazy) for one...

ALSO to add to Rocco's scenario...do you think there were some questions posed to Powell on that trip and so he -- couldn't answer on the spot not because he didn't know, but because they'd all know he was far more up to speed and state withhed it from them -- so he made a call and requested "a memo on anything we know about the niger trip?" -- wink, wink...hence the "redate" and slight variance?

topsecretk9

and thank you JMH...I know I will need your services again!

Sara (Squiggler)

So for the informationally challenged, could we go over this very sloooooowly, please.

The June 10 memo is prepared at the behest/request of Libby, right?

The June 10 memo never makes it out of State, but its "contents" are relayed to Libby verbally, right?

And we know this how? What is the significance? Is Libby's account of the verbal briefing different from what the memo actually says? or different from what Grossman say he said to Libby? Or does Libby deny ever being given a verbal briefing?

Sorry if this is old stuff, but I wasn't around back in the day.

The production of a duplicate memo with a new date and recipient is troubling and way outside the norm. Redirecting a memo is quite common and the procedure is to attach a cover with the new date and recipient and attach the original so there is a proper documentation of government correspondence. The production of a duplicate memo is tantamount to forgery in my opinion.

What was so important on that July date that would cause someone to redate and redirect that a month old memo to make it look new and then have to get it to a certain party so fast they had to fax it to Air Force One?

Remind me again why they were all on the plane and where they were going?
Who was there and why?

topsecretk9

--What was so important on that July date that would cause someone to redate and redirect that a month old memo to make it look new and then have to get it to a certain party so fast they had to fax it to Air Force One?--

Powell's plausible deniability.


Imagine that you are Powell, and your shop has been actively way ahead leaking and pushing back on that envoys claims...imagine those leaks and pushing back were pushing back possible to the OVP ---and then...on AF1, some WH person says...what do you guys know about this Colin?

Powell? "OP....on the horn..."Send me a synopsis of the Niger thing, please Richard"...Armitage is not off a turnip truck, that memo should be dated for "today"


And yes Sara, Grossman says he orally "briefed" (a word in this instance that is risible) Libby, I believe in a room full of people, that Wilson's wife worked at CIA...


Hey, that Powell comment in the situation room in Sept.., 2003 'Everyone know Wilson wife" or whatever it was...hmmmm..

Rocco

And according to the SSCI, Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick remained adamant that the french led consortium maintained strict control over Niger's uranium.

Then on Feb 12, Plame "offered up his name."

Now all of a sudden, Owens-Kirkpatrick cables requesting "another hard look because the names track closely with those who were known to be in office at the time.

Now you're into the whole Carlton Fulford, Owens Kirkpatrick lies about an al Qaeda deal.

That memo was a lie from start to finish!

Late for work...later

boris

While not impossible for the 2nd redated memo to have an innocent explanation, there are times when the only logical course of action is to fight fire with fire, or in this case conspiracy with conspiracy.

Were the situation reversed Jeff and EW would certainly be claiming the two memos are lockdown proof that Grossman conspired with lifetime buddies Joe and Val to:

  1. Get officials abuz about (secret) Val;
  2. Provide a likely source of the (secret) detail in multiple memos properly timed and placed for maximum effect;
  3. Make sure it winds up it print;
  4. Point the finger at WH with the 1x2x6 claim from an unnamed "source";
  5. Flip the election or undermine the administration.

Unlikely ??? Sure, but isn't this the kind of analysis expected in the hamsterwheel book?

Verner

Geez, I go on a trip without internet service for two days, and look what happens!

One thing is for certain. Val is proof that the Clinton administration was not serious about finding out about WMD in Iraq. Think about it. The group is so small, and in the basement no less, that it has to be "ramped up" to fifty? They put Valerie back in the saddle after a severe bout of PPD? Also remember, that because of the 2000 election debacle, the Bush administration was slow in getting the transition piece implemented. After 911, they pretty much had to go with what they had.

I also wonder how important Valerie's position really was. Since Corn is the one who started the covert stuff, and he hates Bush, it is in his best interest to make her look VERY important. We have both Woodward and Priest implying that she was not, and that her supposed "outing" caused little damage. I think I'll wait and see. One thing for sure, if her role was to recruit sources in Iraq, she did a real crap job. That might be the #1 reason she was put on administrative leave.

Also, she went "overseas" to Jordan etc.--but was she NOC, or did she have some sort of "official" cover when she traveled? We all know that she was classified, but so what. So were thousands of people in the building.


As for the DoS--I still believe that Armitage, Gorssman etc. didn't need any memo to know what was going on. Joe's trip was no secret, and Val was not exactly low profile in DC social circles (remember Who's Who?) State was a key player in the junket from the beginning. And then there was that other trip Joe made in 1999.

They knew everything they needed to know within days of the Kristof piece--the memos were a mere formality--yet very curious nonetheless. What they may not have known, however, was Valerie's exact job title and description.

I agree with Sue and A J. AQ Kahn and his Niger adventure is key to understanding what's going on. Saddam had a nuke program alright, or should we say a share in a nuke program (kind of like an LLC! LOL) Why duplicate efforts if you've can finance the brilliant A. Q. Kahn in far away Libya! Then, when you try to have sanctions lifted, with the help of your French and Russian friends, you can go to the UN and say "look at me! I've been a good boy! No nuclear program in Iraq..." (Only to have a few finished products delivered at a later date, financed by all that sanctions- free black gold pumped by the french.)

And since Val and her buddies COMPLETELY missed Kahn. Talk about a career buster. Unless, of course, you can get a more sympathetic administration in place.

Seems to me, when the dust clears, Corn's new revelations will prove harmful to Valerie in the long run.

Can't wait to read Corera's book.

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Wilson/Plame