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September 05, 2006

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MayBee

And let's not forget, shall we, that Joe Wilson said in public that he was afraid Saddam would use his WMD on our troops.
He believed Saddam had chemical weapons - does that mean Valerie did as well?

Sue

Maybee,

Even in his 7/6 op-ed, he made those claims.

Patton

Once again, the left won't use common sense.

You don't send someone to Niger three times if you have no worries about their being holes in their yellowcake program.

How many times did they send someone to other countries in Africa??

If Wilson was so sure Niger was clean, WHY DID HE TRAVLE THEIR TO BEGIN WITH??
Why didn't he just say, look I know that place and I have two young kids at home and I can tell you without leaving the country that their Uranium program is bulletproof.

Clarice

Wilson even said (I believe in his EPIC) speech that we might well find that Saddam had forbidden nuclear arms suggesting he might feel he need tham with a nuclear armed enemy next door (Of course the only neighbor he could have been referring to was Israel.Anyone know of any deisgned Israel had on Iraq? Any aggressive moves--after Osirik ? )

The mandarinate --so stupid you can'r make this stuff up, BUT I ahave always felt that remark was another of Joe's stupid slip ups. Whoever was running this dunce must have had a number of sleepless nights.

Cecil Turner

And, in your opinion, Cecil, would such a person be allowed to take her knowledge of schedules and plans overseas, where she could be captured by hostiles?

Wayyy outside my area of expertise, but I don't really see a major issue with it. Working undercover in a hostile environment would likely be contraindicated, but coordinating with foreign allied officers (which is what Corn appeared to be alluding to) . . . why not?

In a 50 person "joint task force," do you have any idea how many of them would likely be assigned to Val's "operations group"?

Sorry, but I have no idea. It's obviously a task-organized unit (one-off organization designed to fit the job at hand), which is by definition non-standard. Besides, I'm clueless on their standard organization, and AFAICT, the DO doesn't advertise it. Also, Corn's description appears to differ slightly from the SSCI HUMINT section. In any event, an "Operations Officer" is generally a staff officer (typically number 3 in a unit) who makes recommendations, but requires approval by an officer in charge before actually running/authorizing things. That appears consistent with the SSCI verbiage on Wilson's mission:

On February 12, 2002, the former ambassador's wife sent a memorandum to a Deputy Chief of a division in the CIA's Directorate of Operations which said . . .
Presumably the "division" refers to CPD, and "a Deputy Chief" implies there's more than one, so I'd guess Plame as a second-tier officer in the CPD hierarchy (and probably number 2 or 3 in the JTFI organization, but that's anybody's guess).

topsecretk9

Why am I mystified that this heavy job was given to someone with an advertising degree? (No offense to people with Advertising degrees, but trust me, the ones wouldn't know precursor from a hole in the ground - or want to)

MayBee

Why am I mystified that this heavy job was given to someone with an advertising degree? (No offense to people with Advertising degrees, but trust me, the ones wouldn't know precursor from a hole in the ground - or want to)

I think 20 years on the job would trump whatever she'd learned in 4 years of college.
My degree had little to do with what I ended up doing, ditto my husband.

Patton

SOUNDS LIKE CORN IS PULLING A JOE WILSON:
""She was an operations officer working on a top priority of the Bush Administration. Armitage, Rove and Libby had revealed information about a CIA officer who had searched for proof of the President's case. ""

Butt, by the time ARMITAGE outed her, Iraq WMD was no longer a priority because we had toppled Saddam and taken control of all his military/WMD facilities.

Just like Joe Wilson pretending her had seen the 'forgeries' and informed the White House at the time, rather then a year later.

clarice

Miller goes into the GJ believing she'll only be asked about Libby per the agreement. She has no counsel there to object when Fitz breaks that agreement by asking for the names of other sources. She goes into major bafflegab.

The judge who has seen the Times docs says depending on how she testifies, those docs may impeach her testimony.

Let me venture a guess:If this goes to trial, she'll say she was surprised by that question and unprepared but that since then she reviewed her notes and does know where she got that but has no waiver of confidentiality from those sources.

topsecretk9

MayBee

Mine either, but I guess I would think this type of job would be very specialized and expert like.

MayBee

In an interview with the authors, Douglas Rohn, a State Department officer who wrote a crucial memo related to the trip, acknowledges he may have inadvertently created a misimpression that her involvement was more significant than it had been.

He *may* have. But hey-- if State and the WH were working off his notes, they too would have been led to believe that her involvement was more significant than it was?

They asked for information about the meeting, they got it, they used the information given.

JM Hanes

Finally hit google instead of trying to remember where I heard that Plame was transitioning to State. Gave me peculiar pleasure to find the relevant portion of an embargoed NYTimes piece, from Oct. '03, by the one & only Kristof in a comment by emptywheel over at the Next Hurrah. I assume it was cut/pasted directly from Kristof:

Second, as Mrs. Wilson rose in the agency, she was already in transition away from undercover work to management, and to liaison roles with other intelligence agencies. So this year, even before she was outed, she was moving away from ''noc'' -- which means non-official cover, like pretending to be a business executive. After passing as an energy analyst for Brewster-Jennings & Associates, a C.I.A. front company, she was switching to a new cover as a State Department official, affording her diplomatic protection without having ''C.I.A.'' stamped on her forehead.

Not a whisper about State from Corn. So whose sources do we trust? (LOL). They appear to be in sync when it comes to explaining NOC status though. Corn notes, "They might claim to be a businessperson."

jerry

TM, responding to your Update: I'm sure you know that Plame took her unpaid leave at the same time that Pavitt (her boss) and Tenet were resigning (for reasons that remain mysterious). W was also lawyering up, and Cheney was first being interviewed by Fitzgerald. Maybe this all made her both "radioactive" and unprotected, so being on leave suited everyone concerned?

MayBee

OT- may be interesting to Clarice and Charlie(colorado). We have a new baby prince in Tokyo. Well, he's not my prince, but...

clarice

No kidding, Maybee! Great!!

MayBee

From Vanity Fair, the issue with their picture:

In fact, in the spring, Plame was in the process of moving from noc status to State Department cover. Wilson speculates that "if more people knew than should have, then somebody over at the White House talked earlier than they should have been talking."

It did not, in his mind
-or in the opinion of his wife-excuse what had happened. Plame herself thought instantly that the leak was illegal. Even members of her family did not know what she did.

So the State transition comes from the Wilsons.

JM Hanes

Thanks Cecil. Your "anybody's guess" is still a whole lot more useful on this than mine would be!

Sue

Yet, Tenet did nothing to stop the article from being published. Something isn't right with this.

Sue

Yet, Tenet did nothing to stop the article from being published. Something isn't right with this.

MayBee

No kidding, Maybee! Great!!

It makes things easier for the Royal Family, I think.
Hey- I just saw she's at the hospital right down the street. I wonder if she'd like me to drop by for a visit.

topsecretk9

--It did not, in his mind
-or in the opinion of his wife-excuse what had happened. Plame herself thought instantly that the leak was illegal. Even members of her family did not know what she did.---

OK...so Plame was not covert at the time, but wanted to be in the future...so she files an internal CIA grievance complaint of some sort (Harlow blew it too) pledging this information derailed her career (as in, a "national security" leak) that launches the investigation, and some internal audit bureaucratic CYA forces Tenet to write a letter?

JM Hanes

MayBee:

Nice! That makes two separate iterations. In comparison, Corn has:

"When the Novak column ran, Valerie Wilson was in the process of changing her clandestine status from NOC to official cover, as she prepared for a new job in personnel management."
Personnel management where one wonders, along with wondering about the newly abridged storyline, of course.

topsecretk9

Wait a second though...it was Corn's article that laid it all out there and she DID pose for Vanity Fair...so I'm still confused.

Vanity Fair certainly IS NOT mitigating the damage.

Rick Ballard

"Something isn't right with this."

Are you referring to giving credence to anything Corn writes? If so, I agree wholeheartedly. Separating wheat from chaff in a Corn piece is a rather futile exercise.

While I believe Munchausen to be a bigger liar than Corn the differential is only slightly noticeable, not substantial.

PeterUK

Is it known whether Plame could speak or read,Arabic Farsi or Korean,it would seem a minimum to run overseas operatives in the arreas of most interest.
I am not convinced that Plame could have learned abot WMD simply on the job,science and technology moves faster than even most experts can keep abreast of.The areas covered by NBC are vast.

Birdseye

I have not seen any comments by Libby's lawyers regarding this Armitage affair. Perhaps they think this is no help to their client?

lurker

"Note Corn says 'within months' of 9-11, implying prior to 9-11. He is in full Goebbels mode on this one. The growth took place after 9-11. Note that in September 2001 the US Federal Government is still running on and being guided by Bill Clinton's budget signed into law the previous fall - late summer. Any legislation Bush was able to get passed since taking office would only take effect after October 1st. For people who do not know how these things it is important to remind them that the Clinton policies were still in full LEGAL affect on 9/11."

FISCAL YEARS! NASA operates on fiscal years, which means that the summer involves alot of planning of work to be done for the upcoming fiscal year. Fiscal year typically begins one of the last two Fridays of September and runs a year later. The budget for that fiscal year is approved early September and does not change for that entire fiscal year. The work is planned AND frozen for that entire fiscal year. NASA might creep in some minor things and we may absorb a few minor things but generally, the budget is frozen for that whole fiscal year.

Yup, Clinton and his adm approved the budget for the entire fiscal year up to end of fiscal year 2001 from end of September 2000 to end of September 2001. So don't blame Bush for 9/11.

lurker

One of the biggest CIA failures out of this story is their failure to make sure Joe Wilson had the proper security clearance and signed a non-disclosure agreement of some sort.

topsecretk9

Lurker...yeah,math problem. I remember truthout unearthed some document or memo that purported some major lapse in the terror...(wish i could remember) and the lefty blogs just roared...until some righty blogger took a look at the DOC and 1- it was a Dec. 2000 doc redated early Jan. 2001...problem was, it was before Bush even took office....

Sue

Its account of Wilson's CIA career is mainly based on interviews with confidential CIA sources.

Hmmm...are they going to send a referral letter?

clarice

Rick, Thank heavens your back! For a brief moment I actually was fooled into believing there was some reason to wade thru that Corn slop.

lurker

ROFL!! Can you imagine Bush's legacy will continue through September 2009?

As for Christopher Hitchen's article, published today, every article he's published about Zawahie brings us closer to the truth.

Ah...

"affording her diplomatic protection without having ''C.I.A.'' stamped on her forehead."

Guess this will be one of those things itemized in the Wilson's damage report prepared for their lawsuit.

Thanks, AJStrata, for the response on the Ames link question.

lurker

"I have not seen any comments by Libby's lawyers regarding this Armitage affair. Perhaps they think this is no help to their client?"

Gag order? Or Libby and his lawyers know better than to harp their comments to the news reporters or it just puts them in deeper trouble?

Sue

Moreover, she would now be pulled into the partisan warfare of Washington.

Because she allowed her husband to get in the middle of it.

As a CIA employee still sworn to secrecy, she wasn't able to explain publicly that she had spent nearly two years searching for evidence to support the Administration's justification for war and had come up empty.

Well wasn't it convenient she had a hubby not sworn to secrecy?

Sue

What year were the twins born? When was she on leave because of PPD?

larwyn

Matthews to Joe Biden:
"Who would make a better Sec of Defense?"

Biden: "Armitage would be better Secretary of Defense!"

It is going to be a 24/7 job by "Army of Davids" to just keep track of the freshly minted hubris.

Chrissy-the-coward and his new best friend Dan "fake but accurate" Rather have been joined by Mary Mapes "to have some fun, to break some balls"

Hardballs?

And DEM LSM conspiracy to rehab Sir Armitage the Craven by putting Wilson/Plame on down low as soon as they can, Corn book be damned.

Or is it really that "Hubris" was vehicle to get Armitage outed now (now being time of lots of breaking mid-term related news) so that Armitage rehab could begin in timely manner?

My fear is while we are going back over what has already occurred, we're not going to be watching the seeds being planted right now for their forward strategies.

The commenter who outlined the current power the MSM still holds is absolutely spot on.

I am thinking only Libby going forward with a trial will demand attention, not pardon by Bush which
they already have script written to spin.

Feeling as if we are in LOTR's and know all the evil is building, traitors, power seeking egos forming alliances and we're being
flanked with new evils popping up from spider holes each day.

Sorry to be so dramatic but
"Armitage for SOD" just floored me.
Wouldn't an un-agendaed "journalist" have followed up that Biden suggestion with Armitage's recently being in the news for leaking a "covert CIA agent" and would American public really want a "known gossip" as SOD, as the DOD still really controls the majority of our Intel Agencies?

Isn't that what should have been said to or asked of Crazy Joe if said "jurno" cared in the least about credibility or integrity?

Hope Clarice is going to get a
blockbuster for us, as I wonder about the Lewis post at AT - Colin VP to Hill's Presidency?

So then Armitage as new Sec of Defense under Bush would be kept on by Hill/Powell?

Just consider the timing of Corn's book - the man who began the conspiracy is now seeking to end it just before heavy 2 month news cycle lead up to mid-terms.

Are we missing forest??

Sue

She wasn't covert or they would have come right out and said she was.

Can Cecil or someone explain, again (I know it has been explained before, but I forget) the difference between covert and classified?

topsecretk9

Saturday, October 29, 2005

After the outing, said Wolf, "her career was over, she knew it was over, and certainly her contacts were put in jeopardy . . . and her family was put at risk."

Last winter, Plame drafted an op-ed article to explain her role in her husband's Niger trip, but the agency would not permit her to submit it for publication. "While I would love to share Valerie's article with readers, so long as her agency refuses to allow her to defend herself, there is nothing she or I can do," Wilson wrote in the recently issued paperback edition of his bestseller "The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies That Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity."

In the book he quoted a CIA response to Plame telling her "publication of your article has the potential to affect your ability to perform your official duties and the agency's ability to perform its mission." As long as she remains in the CIA -- and even beyond retirement -- national security restrictions would typically apply if she wrote, say, a memoir....


Wilson and Plame, who were married in 1998, live in the District's Palisades neighborhood in a spacious home with a back-deck view of the Washington Monument. Their son and daughter are in kindergarten. (Wilson has another grown set of twins from an earlier marriage.) Before Novak's column, neighbors and friends had no clue she was a spy -- they knew her as a "consultant" in the energy business.

Sue, 2000/2001 was when they were born?

Sara (Squiggler)

so she files an internal CIA grievance complaint of some sort (Harlow blew it too) pledging this information derailed her career (as in, a "national security" leak) that launches the investigation, and some internal audit bureaucratic CYA forces Tenet to write a letter?

If she filed a grievance of some sort, wouldn't that have brought MOM into the mix? She handled the grievances, didn't she?

topsecretk9

"While I would love to share Valerie's article with readers, so long as her agency refuses to allow her to defend herself,"

I think she filed some grievance at the CIA...that the leak derailed her career.

topsecretk9

Sara....Hmmmmm.

lurker

Hannity just asked Tony Snow about whether the president would do something for Libby Lewis. Tony said that because it is ongoing, his lips are sealed.

topsecretk9

Gaming the system...no disclosure agreement, but the CIA assured Wilson at his request to keep him confidential?...gaming the system all the way through.

maryrose

Val and her agenda{getting more paying gigs for her layabout husband} have been the centerpiece of this whole kerfuffle. Karma like hubris will catch up to her. Her dishonesty and double-dealing are on display for all to see.

Sue

The twins were born in January 2000. In the spring of 2001, she is back in "CPD's modest Iraq branch".

Also, re-read http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=823>Corn's original article, A Whitehouse Smear. See if you can guess what Corn knew and when he knew it, if what he is reporting is true.

clarice

Lots of competition for the Valmont and Marquise Merteuil top bills in D.C. this week.

topsecretk9

Sara...actually I can't remember, but I think it was determined MOM wasn't there at the time? I think.

Jeff

Do you think State can get an answer regarding classified information from the CIA in under 24 hours (unless it is a clear emergency)???

This is the naivette' I am talking about.

Phew, for a moment I thought you were talking about the naivete it takes to imagine that Grenier might have given Libby Plame's name, in the same way Maguire imagines Grenier might have given Armitage Plame's name. Like I said, phew.

Anyway, my naivete about Armitage was based, first, on the reporting from August 25 2005 that after Pincus' article of June 12 2003 (and believe me, I'm not naive about the dates involved, I'm very very urbane about them) - which, I'd guess, Armitage read some time between 4 a.m. (the time he is reported to have read Novak's October 1 2003 column) and, say, 7 a.m. - Armitage asked intelligence officers at State (INR, I presume, as in INR memo) for more information, and was forwarded a copy of the so-called INR memo; and, second, what I've learned from various JOM commenters and Maguire himself regarding the INR memo and its classification apparatus, which I had the naivete to imagine would lead one to believe that INR could forward it to Armitage without having to go through the CIA. How naive of me!

On the other hand, I know the whole Niger story was a food fight within the intel community and in the administration as whole for at least a year before Novak's column, and a lot of the ins and outs were known, so it remains perfectly possible that Armitage did not learn of Plame from the INR memo. Why you think the same wouldn't apply to Libby is beyond me, though. Oops, there I go being so naive again! Damn!

topsecretk9

Sue...oooh oooh ...1x2x6?? Did I get it?

lurker

Same wouldn't necessarily apply to Libby. Why? Because he wouldn't have the "need to know". Not until he was given the justification.

maryrose

TS:
You nailed the 1times 2 times 6. You and Sue make an awesome team!

Sue

Or maybe, after Wilson called and 'warned' someone (Grossman?), State, including Armitage, decided to see who Wilson was.

On June 8, when Condoleezza Rice was asked about the Niger documents on Meet the Press, she said, "Maybe someone knew down in the bowels of the agency, but no one in our circles knew that there were doubts and suspicions that this might be a forgery."

Wilson immediately called a couple of people in the government, whose identities he will not divulge-"They are close to certain people in the administration," he says-and warned them that if Rice would not correct the record he would.

http://www.jimgilliam.com/2004/01/vanity_fairs_profile_on_joseph_wilson_and_valerie_plame.php>Source

boris

Oops, there I go being so naive again! Damn!

It's a valid point. If Val was so secret there would have been more care taken with the info.

food fight within the intel community

Doubt it. Joe started a food fight that exposed his wife.

cathyf
On the other hand, I know the whole Niger story was a food fight within the intel community and in the administration as whole for at least a year before Novak's column
Really? You know?

The best thing about the internet is that no one knows whether or not you are a dog.

Woof!

Jeff

If Val was so secret there would have been more care taken with the info.

Oh, that's a rich effort to save all those past claims, boris! The very fact that people were blabbing about her by definition means that her info wasn't secret. Good one!

Even when the people asking were the #1 and #2 in an OVP well-known for firing people's asses throughout the interagency who disagreed with them. Well-known throughout the interagency, I mean. And that would be the Vice President of the United States of America and his Chief of Staff, by the way.

How very naive of me!

Sue

So now, the theory has morphed that the #1 and #2 were asking about Plame because they were going to fire her because she disagreed with them?

Why didn't Tenet make a phone call to Novak?

MayBee

I was just reading quotes from Novak, where he has said before that he felt the Iraq war was being done on behalf of Israel.

Which sounds a lot, you know, like the Wilson camp. Weird he would be the one to break this story.

Jeff

So now, the theory has morphed that the #1 and #2 were asking about Plame because they were going to fire her because she disagreed with them?

No, that is not even in the ballpark of my point. The point is, if the Vice President of the U.S., and especially this Vice President, in these times, asks a question, I bet he gets a pretty full answer, regardless of what is thereby revealed. Dontcha think?

As for Tenet, let's assume Harlow let him know what Novak was up to. I don't know what the answer is. How about: because he was playing for two teams, and in this instance as in so many others, he let his loyalty to his political masters trump his obvious responsibilities?

topsecretk9

--I bet he gets a pretty full answer, regardless of what is thereby revealed. Dontcha think?--

Well, he didn't with regards to Niger.

Sue

No, that is not even in the ballpark of my point.

Then why did you mention it?

No, that is not even in the ballpark of my point. The point is, if the Vice President of the U.S., and especially this Vice President, in these times, asks a question, I bet he gets a pretty full answer, regardless of what is thereby revealed. Dontcha think?

That was my point last night. Cheney should have had someone's head on a platter when he asked a serious question and they sent Inspector Kluso to find the answer.

topsecretk9

So Sue...that was a pretty good catch...close to the admin and the start of 2x4...by the way, Corns article is dated in Wilson bibliography as July 15, 2003 FWIW...(not the 16th)

boris

I bet he gets a pretty full answer, regardless of what is thereby revealed

It is unlikely that Val would have been mentioned in a memo about Joe's trip if she's super secret. Not without a warning about her classification, explicit.

Sue

As for Tenet, let's assume Harlow let him know what Novak was up to. I don't know what the answer is. How about: because he was playing for two teams, and in this instance as in so many others, he let his loyalty to his political masters trump his obvious responsibilities?

There is no logical reason, if she was indeed covert, therefore, you have to make something up.

AJStrata

Jeff,

You may want to stop exposing your ignorance. The Novak-INR timeline is irrelevant to the Woodward 'leak' because it is weeks after the Woodward discussion. See what I mean? You are so confused you cannot keep June and July straight.

If Armitage reads the Pincus article on June 12 and then requests inputs from the CIA, it will take more than 24 hours to get a non-emergency response (and this would be a non-emergency request). So Armitage could not have been told about Plame from the INR (weeks later) or the CIA in response to a Pincus article. And the Kristof article would not initiate a lot of interest while a war is ongoing.

OK, you are free to demonstrate your lack of knowledge again, if you so dare.

Sue

Top,

Don't you find it kind of funny that Corn has revealed, from unidentified CIA sources, classified information? Isn't that what started this whole kernuffle? ::grin::

Besides, his unnamed sources sound too much like VIPS. He is merely regurgitating what has been said elsewhere by them, with a little more detail.

Sara (Squiggler)

If anyone is interested, I have the White House response up to the letter sent by Congress requesting Rumsfield be removed.

White House responds ...

AJStrata

Jeff,

The OVP cannot fire any career civil servants at the CIA - the CIA must do it and have probable cause. Have you ever worked for the federal government?

AJStrata

OT,

The Discovery/Times Channel is showing a great documentary on AQ Khan and the CIA failures (that would be our girl Plame again!). Seems the CIA did not know for 18 years about Iran's program, and never TOLD any US President about Khan's efforts.

Oops.

MayBee

Come on.
Valerie told Joe on their 3rd date, when he wa still married, that she had been a NOC.
Joe knew Novak was talking to someone on the street about a**hole Wilson and his CIA wife, and he did nothing about it except tell Novak, rather manfully, not to talk about his wife.

BTW, as I said earlier, Novak's politics wrt Iraq are much more like Wilsons. So why did Novak think he was an a$$hole?

Back to Vanity Fair:

A source, however, says that Wilson was not universally popular, because of what was perceived to be too strong sympathies for the interests of the Africans and Europeans.

...
Such chutzpah inevitably didn't win over everyone. "Grandstanding" is what someone who was with him in Baghdad calls it. "He always liked to grandstand.... They (State Department higher-ups) thought he was arrogant and demanding."

Wilson probably did not care.

Perhaps many of those same state department higher-ups felt he was still arrogant and demanding.

Sue

>i>(One such proposal, advanced by Representative Murtha, a signatory to your letter, suggested that U.S. forces should be redeployed as a “quick reaction force” to Okinawa, which is nearly 5,000 miles from Baghdad).

Thanks Squig. I felt like inserting Batman images (ZAP! ZING! POW!) while reading the letter.

Sara (Squiggler)

The Discovery/Times Channel is showing a great documentary on AQ Khan and the CIA failures (that would be our girl Plame again!). Seems the CIA did not know for 18 years about Iran's program, and never TOLD any US President about Khan's efforts.

For those on the West Coast, it will be repeated at 10 pm.

Sara (Squiggler)

I know what you mean, Sue. My favorite is the summary paragraph at the beginning:

Your letter recites four elements of a proposed “new direction” in Iraq. Three of those elements reflect well-established Administration policy; the fourth is dangerously misguided.
Tom Maguire

I'm curious, which information do you think might be overweighted?

Mr. Turner has stolen my thunder, but the aside about Douglas Rohn of State wondering if he exaggerated Ms. Plame's role in arranging Joe's trip is a good example of suspect reporting.

OF COURSE Rohn may not be clear and confident as to Plame's role in arranging the trip - per her account, he only saw here for three minutes at the start of the meeting.

But so what - that is hardly the end of the story. For example, did Corn chat with Grenier and square away Grenier's talk with Libby that is mentioned in the indictment? Did Corn even mention that as a loose end? Not in the excerpt he didn't, which arouses my suspicion.

From Jeff:

Tom, of course, suggested that Grenier, who told Libby about Plame, might not have given Armitage her name, since he might have known her back in the day when her name actually was "Valerie Plame." Of course, we don't have any evidence I know of of an Armitage-Grenier connection, though it's possible.

I must have been reading a Le Carre novel that weekend - that theory of mine is a bit of a longshot (but I like it!).

The straight Grenier to Libby disclosure of the Plame name is a lot more linear, but they both should have been asked about that by Fitzgerald (of course, they could both have not remembered.)

And (although the timing is wrong), we know Libby talked to Rove and Rove talked to Novak. But again, they must have all forgotten (lot of that going around).

topsecretk9

--They (State Department higher-ups) thought he was arrogant and demanding.--

Wel they got that part right.


OT, sort of:

London, England, Jun. 28 (UPI)—Iraq and four other countries were attempting to purchase uranium from Niger as far back as 1999, European intelligence officials told the Financial Times.

The unidentified sources told the newspaper illicit sales were being negotiated at least three years before last year's U.S.-led invasion.

They said between 1999 and 2001, uranium smugglers planned to sell the ore or refined ore called yellow cake, to Iran, Libya, China, North Korea and Iraq.

An official said meetings between Niger officials and would-be buyers from the five countries were held in several European countries. Intelligence officers were convinced that the uranium would be smuggled from abandoned mines in Niger, circumventing official export controls.


add on this

JUST days before the bombs fell on Iraq in March, 2003, Britain's secret service got an unexpected phone call. It led two MI6 officers to private rooms in a Mayfair hotel. There, a nervous young man told them that "the leader" was ready to reconsider his weapons of mass destruction program. The agents were astonished. The leader was the young man's father, Libyan President Muammar Gaddafi...

The war on terror, it seemed, had finally borne fruit. A grateful Gaddafi even sent Blair boxes of oranges and dates.

But when Libya came in from the cold, something even bigger and less cheering came in with it. The seizure of the centrifuge parts in Taranto was the last step in exposing a sophisticated global network that traded the materials and know-how to make nuclear arms.

The network was vital to Iran's march down the nuclear path. It seems to have helped North Korea in its attempt to build a bomb. It tried to sell to Iraq. It was constructing an entire nuclear weapons capability for Libya. It was dominated by shadowy European businessmen but at its head was a high-profile Pakistani scientist who had helped forge his country's atomic weapons program. Now under house arrest in Islamabad, Abdul Qadeer Khan

topsecretk9

channeling Andrew...money quote

On the night Libya announced it was giving up its nuclear program, BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera saw the item on the television news. "I didn't even know Libya had a nuclear program," he thought, amazed at what this might say about the spread of atomic weapons.


LINK

Sara (Squiggler)

It was dominated by shadowy European businessmen

And maybe a seemingly incompetent American businessman, sometime Ambassador with strong ties to Belgium, Turkey, Iraq, and Africa and with a close friend in Grossman with exceptionally strong and far reaching contacts in Pakistan.

Tom Maguire

Other Tom and anyone else, do you know of any links that indicate Ames outting Plame's identity?

Nick Kristof, Oct 2003 column, and a Wash *Times* article the date of which eludes me.

The Wash Times also mentions that her identity was disclosed in papers delivered by mistake to Cuba (IIRC).

lurker

"

So now, the theory has morphed that the #1 and #2 were asking about Plame because they were going to fire her because she disagreed with them?

No, that is not even in the ballpark of my point. The point is, if the Vice President of the U.S., and especially this Vice President, in these times, asks a question, I bet he gets a pretty full answer, regardless of what is thereby revealed. Dontcha think?

As for Tenet, let's assume Harlow let him know what Novak was up to. I don't know what the answer is. How about: because he was playing for two teams, and in this instance as in so many others, he let his loyalty to his political masters trump his obvious responsibilities?"

While Cheney deserved complete answers and is / was in the position, it doesn't necessarily mean that he got complete and accurate answers!

Regarding OVP firing a career government employee, AJStrata is right. And it's difficult to get a career government employee fired. Many time do we see many NASA employee doing as little as possible while waiting for RIF time or retirement so that they can get huge severance pay and/or retain benefits.

Sara (Squiggler)

Oops, and let's not forget his ties to the French and his sometime CIA spy role.

lurker

"The Wash Times also mentions that her identity was disclosed in papers delivered by mistake to Cuba (IIRC)."

Thanks, so when was her identity revealed by mistake of disclosure to Cuba?

lurker

Sara, I'm glad that Bolten wrote that letter with the emphasis that Rummy will not be fired. I still see no reason for Rummy to be fired.

lurker

MayBee,

"Valerie told Joe on their 3rd date, when he wa still married, that she had been a NOC."

Ah but Valerie should never have told Joe that she was NOC!

That is a clear violation, isn't it?

MayBee

Other Tom and anyone else, do you know of any links that indicate Ames outting Plame's identity?

Nick Kristof, Oct 2003 column, and a Wash *Times* article the date of which eludes me.

The Wash Times also mentions that her identity was disclosed in papers delivered by mistake to Cuba (IIRC).

Wait! Tom Maguire- you are missing the Vanity Fair love story on the Wilsons:

In 1997, Plame moved back to the Washington area, partly because (as was recently reported in The New York Times) the C.I.A. suspected that her name may have been on a list given to the Russians by the double agent Aldrich Ames in 1994.

http://www.jimgilliam.com/2004/01/vanity_fairs_profile_on_joseph_wilson_and_valerie_plame.php>Vanity Fair Story Link

Pofarmer

I went over and read AJ Strata's piece, and it kind of confirmed what I had started to suspect. A lot of this is probably designed to cover up the Clinton administrations bungling of all kinds of CIA operations, particularly those requiring Humint and regarding WMD's. Gee, I wonder when India will get nukes, BOOOMMMMMM.. Surely Pakistan can't be in the running BBBOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM. If nothing else, the current controversy serves to take pressure of those who richly deserve it, the prior administration who let all this come to a head. Maybe these folks thought they would be rewarded in a Kerry administration?

Hubris indeed

Yes, there definately needs to be a lot of firing.

lurker

Ed Morrissey added his post (comments) about the Terrorist Prevention Act of 1996, which AJStrata might find it interesting:

Terrorism Prevention Act

Hhhmmm, MayBee, CIA's suspicions don't mean that they have the facts. But this sounds like Plame's NOC identity was removed in 1997.

Sue

Well, bottom line, unless Corn and Isikoff are complete idiots, and I'm not discounting that completely, and I also suspect their sources are the Wilsons, Johnson and other VIPS), Valerie Plame had something to do with the JTFI. And that is probably why the judges haven't dismissed the case. The JTFI was classified, even if Valerie's exact role was a pencil pusher. Funny thing though. The JTFI was revealed by Corn and Isikoff.

lurker

Terrorist Prevention Act actually helped legalize the NSA surveillance program and the SWIFT / banking records, donja think, AJSTrata?

"And as far as wiretaps go, Congress had already expanded the government's ability to tap communications. The Senate had passed S.735 three months earlier, the Terrorism Prevention Act. It granted new powers for intercepting communications. For instance, it removed the requirement to get a wiretap order to access banking records, allowing a grand jury subpoena instead. It also granted more power to use wiretaps for immigration violations, a key in tracking international terrorists. The Senate passed the bill on April 17 and it became law, according to the government's Thomas site. Only eight Senators voted against it -- seven of them Democrats (Byrd, Kennedy, Pell, Feingold, Mosely-Braun, Simon, and Moynihan). The only Republican vote in opposition came from Oregon's Mark Hatfield, who regularly cast votes on the liberal end of the GOP caucus."

clarice

I do not recall the precise date that her identity was revealed to the Cubans, but it was an agency screw up..the information was transmitted to the Ambassador but not in a diplomatic pouch and was therefore probably read by the Cubans....unless their intel agency is as incompetent as ours is.

topsecretk9

I'm late to reading Hitchen's today but this is, well...

"...The second discovery of interest comes by way of Ray Robison, formerly of the David Kay weapons inquiry, whose patient work I have mentioned before. He is currently engaged in the translation and collation of the captured documents from Saddam Hussein's presidency. One of the logbooks of correspondence deals specifically with Africa. Here is one entry:

Official envoy: Letter to the Presidency, secret and urgent, number B/2853/K June 4 1997. The President of Niger, General Ibrahim Bare, informed us about his willingness to visit Iraq during the current month and he wants Iraq to set a date. So, it seems that air travel between Niger and Iraq could indeed be discussed without all the bother of sending a senior nuclear-knowledgeable Iraqi official to Niamey. You can read the original here. (You can also follow Robison's other valuable work on the Saddam dossier.)
topsecretk9

oopps, here is what Hitchens notes

-So, it seems that air travel between Niger and Iraq could indeed be discussed without all the bother of sending a senior nuclear-knowledgeable Iraqi official to Niamey. -

Jeff

Well, the gloves are off. AJStrata and I seem to be in agreement that someone is a moron. After that, we part ways. From the AJ-sphere, we get this professing my ignorance:

The Novak-INR timeline is irrelevant to the Woodward 'leak' because it is weeks after the Woodward discussion. See what I mean? You are so confused you cannot keep June and July straight.

Where he got the idea that I was introducing Novak into the discussion with him is beyond me. Let's go through this real slow-like. AJ starts off with this criticism of my knowledge and reasoning:

eff, Your conceptions of how IC members interact with non-cleared workers and mid level administration staff is all wrong. This is not shop talk stuff. If people knew of Plame being at the CIA and being involved with Joe's trip it came from (a) a CIA report through channels and captured in the INR memo (with no indication of Plame's covert status) or (2) someone who knew her and her role. The administration did not dig into this much after the first Kristof editorial - no one reacts on one silly newspaper article. By the Pincus article in the WaPost on June 12th Armitage basically knew about Plame and Joe and gabbed to Woodward. This tells me option (a) is out completely. There were some very connected people passing information to Armitage right from the first Kristof article.

So, my only claim in this regard (since AJ disavowed any contention with my Libby claim, apparently) is that Armitage could in fact have learned of Plame from the INR memo between the time he read the Pincus article, presumably first thing in the morning on June 12, and the afternoon of June 13, when he blew Plame's cover with Woodward. See that, no Novak!

I already addressed how it is I came to believe Armitage would not need "inputs from the CIA" on June 12-13, which AJ appears to ignore. Maybe I'm wrong on that; I'd be happy to hear either how I've misunderstood the claims that were made about the classification apparatus on the INR memo here at JOM, or how those claims are in fact wrong. Moreover, maybe Armitage learned of Plame earlier from some other source.

But in any case, none of that has anything to do with Novak, and so it's unclear to me what the basis for your abuse of me is, AJ, except for your own idiocy.

topsecretk9

---Posted by: Pofarmer | September 05, 2006 at 08:15 PM---
That was a LO-BOOOOOM

Sue

So, my only claim in this regard (since AJ disavowed any contention with my Libby claim, apparently) is that Armitage could in fact have learned of Plame from the INR memo between the time he read the Pincus article, presumably first thing in the morning on June 12, and the afternoon of June 13, when he blew Plame's cover with Woodward.

He could have. He could have also found out from Grossman who Wilson was, since Grossman verbally informed Libby prior to the June 12th memo date. And since on June 8th Wilson is calling someone at State warning them of his intentions. Why would Armitage needed to have seen a memo? Except to square his testimony to Fitzgerald on how he learned of the connection.

Just out of curiosity, you do know that Grossman and Wilson were friends?

MayBee

The Vanity Fair article uses the NYTs as a source on the Ames outing, so in a way it is the same as saying the NYTs reported it. However we know the Wilsons read the VF article, didn't correct it, and have become BFF with Vanity Fair. I think that lends the idea that they believed she'd been outed extra credence.
----

About Novak getting Plame's name. I don't understand where the mystery is. Armitage has merely said, through a spokeman, that he is unsure if he used her name. Surely he worked very closely with people that knew her on a casual basis (Grossman). Why are we imagining Mr. Inveterate Gossip remembers with any clarity what he said? I think he and Novak were just shooting the breeze over what a blowhard Wilson was. State didn't want to be stuck with him any more than OVP did.

JM Hanes

I may have missed an actual link above, but just in case I'm not the only one, here's Hitchens' newest.

Sue

Maybee,

I noticed where it no longer matters if Libby told Miller. I have long suspected she broached the subject with Libby. Her surprise at hearing her referred to as Valerie Wilson instead of how she had always heard her referred to...Valerie Plame. Plus, if Corn is correct, she was square in the area where Miller would have been snooping. WMDs and Iraq.

Jeff

Just out of curiosity, you do know that Grossman and Wilson were friends?

I have known for a long time, in fact, that they were acquainted. Read it somewhere. Don't think it was a big surprise to Fitzgerald.

But I don't want to be sidetracked while I am having it out with the main man or woman AJStrata him- or herself! So you agree with my logic, and AJ is the one who is ignorant? Note I'm saying it was reported that Armitage did see the memo, shortly after the publication of Pincus' article. Note I'm saying, to the best of my understanding as it has been shaped by Maguire and others at this site, it could very well have been that Armitage saw the INR memo between early morning June 12 and afternoon June 13. Note that AJ Strata has not only disputed that last contention, without clear explanation, but has introduced the utterly irrelevant issue of the leak to Novak in July! Now you tell me who is and who is not making sense.

I am not, of course, contending that I know for sure that Armitage did and/or only could have learned of Plame from the INR memo. (This is the issue you are currently trying to sidetrack me on.) But nor is that the topic on which AJ is actually taking issue with me. Now you tell me who is the non-sensical, illogical fool! Me or AJ!?! Since you say "He could have," your answer appears to be, "AJ!"

Sue

Someone had to give Wilson creds with Kristoff and Pincus. They didn't publish what he said on his word alone.

AJStrata

Jeff,

Gloves off? Don't kid yourself. Here is the original memo with a date of July 7th. Nearly a month after Armitage leaked to Woodward.

http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_2.php

Enjoy

JM Hanes

"Let's go through this real slow-like."

Oh lordy. Let's not and say we did!

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Wilson/Plame