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September 05, 2006

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boris

Now you tell me who is the non-sensical, illogical fool! Me or AJ!?! Since you say "He could have," your answer appears to be, "AJ!"

Perhaps a miscommunication has occurred. Hard to believe given the concise coherent logical nature of your posings but ...

MayBee

Yes, Sue. Imagine my surprise that it doesn't matter who told Judy- well, and Libby's surprise I'm sure.

AJStrata

Lurker,

I have yet to read the new act in detail, but the snippets I saw clearly gave the President authority to use all force and tools to protect America.

Has anyone put the KosKids on suicide watch now that so many democrats just made Bush's efforts legal?

boris

original memo with a date of July 7th

Wasn't that a June memo recycled to a new receipient?

Sue

I have known for a long time, in fact, that they were acquainted. Read it somewhere. Don't think it was a big surprise to Fitzgerald.

Then you also read that Wilson was making phone calls to people he knew at state in the spring of 03. And one last warning phone call on June 8th. And you also read that Grossman verbally advised Libby sometime at the end of May and before June 12th that the envoy was Wilson. And you also read the memo which noted her name as Valerie Wilson, not Plame. You may not want to look at State very hard, but I do. Wilson was already in their world long before you have any evidence of Libby asking about him.

AJStrata

Hey,

I will concede I wrongfully accused Jeff is someone will tell me how the scan of the original INR memo from Ford carries a July 7th date and not a June date!

Free shot at AJ....

Sue

Oh lordy. Let's not and say we did!

That is a debating tactic well honed at a place I won't mention. ::grin::

Jeff

AJ

Oops! Your bad. That July 7 document is merely a repackaging, for the purposes of sending it to Powell, of the memo that was produced on June 10 for Grossman by Carl Ford et al. That is, the INR memo.

Care to apologize? Or do you care instead to, to coin an AJphrase, expose your ignorance and demonstrate your lack of knowledge again?

AJStrata

BTW, AJStrata is definitely a 'he' - all the grace and good looks go to the lovely LJStrata!

Sue

A memo which names her as a managerial type and calls her Wilson.

Go figure!

::grin::

Night y'all.

MayBee

I don't see why Valerie couldn't continue to supervise. Corn's whole write up is smoke and mirrors. This whole "outing" bruhaha seems to be about a job she thought she might have in the future. Big deal. I wanted to be a novelist but TM's exposure of my writing capablities has made that a distant dream. Maybe I'll sue him.

Second. Do you notice the bit about the Aluminum Tubes? Super spy girl was with the CIA group that thought they were for nukes! Super Spy Girl's husband thought there were chemical weapons in Iraq! Super Spy girl has done a remarkable job of getting the left to love her even though she was (it appears) part of everything they scoff!!

AJStrata

Boris,

It is from Ford to Powell. It is listed as the INR memo. I posted on the discrepency here:

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/2416

I have no idea where people got the idea it was generated in June (Fitzgerald?). The fact is it would take about that much time for a non-emergency request from State to CIA to echo back and get into the form of the memo. There was a war on in Iraq - this was not a "stop everything" high priority subject. Contrary to the media's egoes, those of use who do Federal work laugh at the articles instead of panic over them

AJStrata

Jeff,

Repackaging? That is the only memo Armitage and Powell would see! They would not see internal copies.

I ask again - have you EVER worked for the government. You would never 'repackage' the memo! For what purpose?

AJStrata

BTW, if I wronged you, it is your own damn fault for setting the pattern!

;)

Cheers - AJStrata

MayBee

You may not want to look at State very hard, but I do. Wilson was already in their world long before you have any evidence of Libby asking about him.

Sue- don't forget the Vanity Fair article that indicates Wilson was not universally loved at State.
---
AJ-
Jeff left out a word here:
That July 7 document is merely a repackaging, [ostensibly] for the purposes of sending it to Powell,

I think it just made the date look better.

Jeff

A memo which names her as a managerial type and calls her Wilson.

Right, Sue, I thought we already determined long ago that seeing the INR memo was not really going to do the trick for some of the really problematic stuff. So it is sort of interesting to list who did and who did not see the INR memo among those who learned of Plame.

As for Wilson's affiliations at State, I'm tempted to say, duh. He was, after all, an old State hand. The thing you don't seem to want to understand is that, from my perspective, State in 2003 did indeed want to distance themselves from Wilson. Hence the tone of the INR memo. Whatever other lefties feel, I do not think Armitage was a good or fine actor in this, and I've been saying that for a long time - although I will add that does not diminish my respect for him as a foreign policy guy: I heard more sense out of him in that one-hour interview with Charlie Rose than I've heard from the rest of the SAOs in the Bush administration, his former boss Powell included, over the last six years. But in this matter, he was a bad actor, and I remain puzzled and troubled by the fact that he was not charged with anything, even though we still know far too little about how that came about.

RichatUF

from PeterUK

Is it known whether Plame could speak or read,Arabic Farsi or Korean,it would seem a minimum to run overseas operatives in the arreas of most interest. I am not convinced that Plame could have learned abot WMD simply on the job,science and technology moves faster than even most experts can keep abreast of.The areas covered by NBC are vast.


Interesting...has anyone ever dug up a CV (the VF piece lists LSE and College of Europe), disarmament and international law? And the language bit Plame could speak French, German, and Greek-maybe she could speak others (but of course this is also from the VF piece so I don't know)?

But the quote above jogged something in my mind, but I've got to look it up. Post tomorrow if it turns out to be relevant.

RichatUF

Javani

What an opportunity! Surely the reporter asked Plame whether as of March 2003 Iraq had WMD programs...

AJStrata

So Jeff, let's play your side for a moment. Ford Reports to Grossman on June 10th (because Powell and Armitage is out of the country???) and then Ford files the same memo to Powell on July 7th. Why?

The process in the government is pass a copy to Powell/Armitage from Grossman acting on their behalf. No need for a second memo. Unless....

Why would the record need a second memo from Ford (and not Grossman)? Hmmm. That is truly not normal procedure for the Government whatsoever. It blurs the timeline and ownership trail (a big no-no). Yes Jeff, I can see why you were confused. I can apologize for assuming you would know better than to take these two copies at face value. If they were only days apart and preceded all the leaks they would make sense. But the second copy looks to be a complete plant since nothing important changed on the memos except the date and the recipient.....

Sorry Jeff - you are being led around by the nose by experts.

Jeff

AJ

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. The INR memo was produced on June 10 - the NYSun even put up a link to the pdf of it briefly before taking down the link, though Maguire can point you to it with his technical skills. I've got a copy before me. It's dated June 10, 2003 and it's virtually identical to the July 7, 2003 memo. The June 10 memo was addressed to Grossman, and the July 7 memo to Powell, who was on board AF1.

You did wrong me with your ignorance and lack of knowledge.

I've never worked for the federal government, but some of my best friends have!

I will add this, though. If your ignorance is not as overwhelming as it often appears to be, and you're right about this --

The fact is it would take about that much time for a non-emergency request from State to CIA to echo back and get into the form of the memo. There was a war on in Iraq - this was not a "stop everything" high priority subject --

then you make one of my points for me. Grossman asked for the memo because he had been asked questions about Wilson's trip by Libby, and wanted to give informed answers. Libby's request was, presumably, important.

Then again, I still can't see why you think there had to be a request and echo to and from CIA.

MayBee

Jeff- I agree with every last word of your 9:11. Maybe that won't please you, though. ;-)

Cecil Turner

But in this matter, he was a bad actor, and I remain puzzled and troubled by the fact that he was not charged with anything, even though we still know far too little about how that came about.

That's because you've apparently missed Boris's point. Plame's name (as "Valerie Wilson . . . wife of Joe Wilson" since along with Wilson's bio that gives away the store as effectively as "Valerie Wilson nee Plame" would have) did not belong in the INR memo, or the attached noted. Notes which were't a product of an OVP request, but merely of a meeting she attended and the subsequent notoriety of her hubby. There's the security leak, and it's all Joe and Val's fault.

If you want to prosecute Armitage, you have to prove he fits into one of the statutes, all of which require some sort of intent. Not only would that be difficult to prove, it is apparently actually lacking. And sorry for the hit-and-run, but I have another trip. Cheers.

Jeff

Yes Jeff, I can see why you were confused. I can apologize for assuming you would know better than to take these two copies at face value.

Oh AJ, and just the other day assorted JOMers were accusing me of being humorless. That's the funniest goddamn thing I've heard all day! It's like a bad satire of the daftest lefty imaginings of the all-powerful Bush administration! And I know, I know, you're about to pull rank on me and reality with your understanding of

normal procedure of the Government

which trumps all. Oh this is getting good. So, in order to save yourself from your ignorance and lack of knowledge, let's get clear. Which memo are you saying is a plant? Because if it's the July 7 memo, that doesn't save your argument at all. And anyway, you're not saved from your own ignorance anyway, since you didn't know about it.

But I suppose it's best to explain that you didn't know about it because it's a plant, part of ordinary government procedure, to carry on the great conspiracy of State against the White House, right? And your level of knowledge while we're at it?

So tell me again who's ignorant?

MayBee

This is from EW on Daily Kos

It has details that haven't been revealed before. We've known she was in WMD for a long time, but the nutters have insisted she was in a transitional role. This addresses a lot of the questions they've hid behind.
----
Excuse me? Who are the "nutters" here? The Wilsons in Vanity Fair? Or Corn?:

When the Novak column ran, Valerie Wilson was in the process of changing her clandestine status from NOC to official cover, as she prepared for a new job in personnel management.

Maybe someone needs to read that to her really slowly.

MayBee

But in this matter, he was a bad actor, and I remain puzzled and troubled by the fact that he was not charged with anything, even though we still know far too little about how that came about.

I do have trouble understanding why he wasn't charged if Libby was.

For the record, I don't believe there was any "outing" going on. She may have had a good job in a classified area, but her own job seems not to be NOC in any way.

If she didn't want to get caught up in politics, she should have recommended her husband not join the Kerry campaign or attend poltical events or write political op-eds. She got caught in a political fight, but she wasn't "outed".

AJStrata

Jeff, I see an INR memo dated June 10th - but then why the July 7th version to Powell? Please answer yes or no - have you worked for the government? Apparently not and that is why you are so defensive (dude, this is a parlor game to me, I have no dog in this fight!). But I can tell you there is absolutely no reason for the 7/7 version. Either you pass the 6/10 version to Powell and Armitage or you add something substantial. Nothing substantial was modified. You can feel this is a small detail, but recording events is a real serious issue in the government.

Like I said - Armitage and Powell would NOT see the internal draft from 6/10 IF the 7/7 copy is legit. If they did see the 6/10 version there is no need (and it is misleading) to create the 7/7 version.

We have a clear conundrum here. Not your fault you can't see it.

Jeff

AJ

Yes, like everyone who has not worked for the federal government, I'm defensive! That's the ticket.

Look, I'm not being defensive in the least. You were wrong and ignorant; it would be nice if you would admit it. Even if you're truly crazy parlor-game fantasizing turned out to be right, you were still ignorant when you accused me of ignorance. You didn't know about the June 10 INR memo, which I was basing my argument on, when you accused me of ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Forgive me if I don't take your current effort to tell me how ignorant I am of government procedures seriously. No, not seriously at all. In this parlor game, you were the ignorant one.

topsecretk9

If she didn't want to get caught up in politics, she should have recommended her husband not join the Kerry campaign or attend poltical events or write political op-eds. She got caught in a political fight, but she wasn't "outed".

To borrow a phrase from the almighty Hairsprayed one

"The great irony in all this" would be if Valerie filed some sort of grievance claim that CIA did not follow normal procedure by ensuring one of their freelancers signed a nondisclosure agreement.

AJStrata

Well Jeff, at least you have admitted your lack of experience and why your speculation is well off.

Don't take it personal, the Federal Government is a complex place and has lots of written and unwritten policies and traditions.

Now, it is clear the July 7th memo was intended for Powell (and Armitage?) while the 6/10 memo was for Grossman. All I can do is tell you that if Armitage read the 6/10 memo he would have answered Powell's questions and there was no need for the 7/7 memo. And if the 7/7 memo is legit there is no reason to assume Armitage knew about the 6/10 memo.

You can complain and theorize all you wish, but that is how the government works. Sorry, there are no reasons I can see for Armitage having access on 6/10 that do not preclude a 7/7 memo. Feel free to give it a shot!

You got one point sort of right....

Jeff

AJ

Just to be clear, all of that meshug may be well and good, the fact remains that you accused me of being ignorant and lacking knowledge, when in fact you were, as you made clear, utterly and completely ignorant of the June 10 INR memo. Even if it turned out that the great spaghetti monster in the sky created the June 10 INR memo specially for the NYSun, the fact that you were making an argument undermined by its existence, of which you were ignorant, remains. Spinning crazy theories about it now hardly saves your ass.

If you ask me, you would have been better off just admitting you were ignorant and moving on. Instead, you are digging yourself an ever deeper hole of ridiculousness in a futile effort to obscure the simple fact that you were ignorant of the key fact in our whole argument that there exists a publicly recognized INR memo dated June 10, 2003, and Armitage could have gotten his Plame info from it.

You're now making an entirely different set of arguments, which is fully your right, no matter how crazy. But they have no bearing on our actual dispute, which you were wrong in, even as you accused me of being wrong. Which is fine; admit it and move on.

JM Hanes

AJStrata:

The gratuitous repackaging of the INR memo is one of the most interesting anomolies in this whole case isn't? I think Grossman is veritable cornucopia of conflicting interests & loyalties, and that particular memo was a regular come-to-Jesus juggling-as-fast-as-I-can moment.


MayBee:

"Maybe someone needs to read that to her really slowly."

LOL! Does anybody have posting privileges in KosWorld? Have you got a link, perchance? Maybe someone could remind emptywheel that is was Kristof & Vanity Fair (i.e. the Wilsons), not the nutters, pushing Plame's transitional role -- as noted in her own comments back in March. Actually, that whole comment thread is rather interesting (familiar names and all).

Sara (Squiggler)

Jeff, can the personal attack on AJ and address his points. Redating a memo does seem rather odd, no?

Jeff

Aha! So I see that JMHanes and Sara (Squiggler) (perhaps) join my side in the argument with AJ. Are we perhaps forging a bipartisan reality-based community after all?

Personal attack? I am fully focused on AJ's level of knowledge - which is, after all, the issue on which AJ attacked me.

As for the new version AJ has improvised since discovering the June 10 INR, I can't quite make out what it is he's suggesting. It must be my lack of experience in the federal government.

Sara (Squiggler)

Frankly, I think everyone is so off base on the whole who was Valerie question. The Wilsons were circulating in State Dept. affairs for years. How many cocktail parties and receptions do you think an Ambassador or former Ambassador attends in a year? I would bet their social calendar was full. And, besides the actual numbers of people who would have interacted with either Joe or Val or both over the course of the years leading up to the scandal has got to be in the hundreds. Armitage and Powell probably knew both of them from some embassy or State Dept. function, even if they didn't know directly what Val did. But, even that is suspect because both of them were in positions that would have required some type of security clearance and there is no way that Val's employment would have escaped that scrutiny when Joe was being cleared. In addition, wasn't Joe working with or along side Clarke at the NSC? or something like that? There is no way they didn't know Val's job. So the memo is irelevant as to Armitage as far as I'm concerned. That INR memo is somebody's CYA and the redating is somebody's CYA and blame someone else.

topsecretk9

Maybe someone could remind emptywheel that is was Kristof & Vanity Fair (i.e. the Wilsons), not the nutters, pushing Plame's transitional role -- as noted in her own comments back in March. Actually, that whole comment thread is rather interesting

Oh Gawd, JMH...that was too precious to describe.

topsecretk9

JMH

EW Commenter: FOUND IT!

LARRY JOHNSON: His information -- his information -- his information on this issue has been repeatedly wrong. And, again, I'll bet Clifford May $5,000. Find the reference prior to Robert Novak's column in which that information was out there. It wasn't out there.

Not only that, when Valerie wrote that check to Al Gore's campaign as a member of Brewster-Jennings, she was living her cover. Not a single neighbor knew that she worked for the CIA. She protected that cover. She was in the process of moving from non-official cover to official cover, but, under the law, official cover still protected.

__________

SO? Their heros are not to be trusted sources?

Pete

Priceless Jeff.

For someone making open fun of others' intelligence, Strata does not appear to be a bright bulb himself.

topsecretk9

My goddness, what a loosey lips Valerie Elise Plame has, didn't she sign an important oath at the CIA or something?


Corn excerpt:

Wilson, too, occasionally flew overseas to monitor operations. She also went to Jordan to work with Jordanian intelligence officials who had intercepted a shipment of aluminum tubes heading to Iraq that CIA analysts were claiming--wrongly--were for a nuclear weapons program. (The analysts rolled over the government's top nuclear experts, who had concluded the tubes were not destined for a nuclear program.)


The Selling of the Iraq War: The First Casualty
By John B. Judis and Spencer Ackerman*
New Republic
June 30, 2003
Many of the intelligence analysts who had participated in the aluminum-tubes debate were appalled. One described the feeling to TNR: "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie." Albright, of the Institute for Science and International Security, recalled, "I became dismayed when a knowledgeable government scientist told me that the administration could say anything it wanted about the tubes while government scientists who disagreed were expected to remain quiet." As Thielmann puts it, "There was a lot of evidence about the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons programs to be concerned about. Why couldn't we just be honest about that without hyping the nuclear account? Making the case for active pursuit of nuclear weapons makes it look like the administration was trying to scare the American people about how dangerous Iraq was and how it posed an imminent security threat to the United States."

And this is the article that contains the "first" of the "4" seperate times Joseph Wilson was "misquoted" or lied about (he accused Kristof of lying, so) debunking the "forgeries"

JM Hanes

Pete:

And then there are the guys who can't resist trying to hitch a ride on other folk's coattails.

jerry

Regarding the June 10 and July 7 INRs, there is a slight difference on the first page (besides the date)... where it refers to either one or two staff members unavailable to consult on the document. The July memo was apparently ok'd by someone who was unavailable in June.

Maybe that would explain why it was released "twice?" Haven't followed the discussion too thoroughly but I did see this.

topsecretk9

--And this is the article that contains the "first" of the "4" separate times Joseph Wilson was "misquoted" or lied about (he accused Kristof of lying, so) debunking the "forgeries"---

CORRECTION_ My bad...this was the "THIRD" separate misquote in the series of misquotes...that WIlson said he debunked the forgeries because of the "names"

sorry. my mistake.

JM Hanes

Jeff:

"Are we perhaps forging a bipartisan reality-based community after all?"

That would depend on whether you recognize the import of of AJ's point about the striking nature of such repackaging in light of chain of custody issues which relate to information sharing. We seem to be partway there though.

jerry

It looks to me that AJ is making silly points regarding the INRs.

But today's news about Plame does suggest some very interesting motivations behind the betrayal of Mrs. Wilson by the WH, ultimately through Novak.

MayBee

But today's news about Plame does suggest some very interesting motivations behind the betrayal of Mrs. Wilson by the WH,

Yeah. No. I don't get that. They "out" her and she draws attention to herself and she and her husband yack and yack and write books. BFD. What kind of punishment is that?

They don't out her and she has to sit there and shut up and she gets to keep her job. Unless she wanted to keep her job specifically to spill secrets like all the rest of her VIPS friends. Then I don't feel sorry for her.

I mean for heaven's sake, what kind of weenies do we have in the White House these days? Clinton could kill Vince Foster and down Ron Browns plane, and all they can do is get Valerie Plame an Armani gown?

I'm not buying your "interesting motivations" jerry.

kate

Boy, there is really an effort to make little Val seem so important. Wasn't it only several months ago that she was single handedly going to rescue us from Iran except the evil neocons conspired to "out" her.

And now they try to portray this mid-level bureaucrat as important again. Her long suffering co-workers must yearn to put Val's important role in context, there are scores of people at her level I'm sure.

Fortunately for the Wilson cabal, Corn chief among them:

1) Val's co-workers are more discreet that the blabbermouth couple will ever be;
2) This story is now relegated to back pages and will remain so, the media wants it to go away.

Speaking of going away... please leave, Val, please go!

Seixon

So does this mean that David Shuster will do a new report on MSNBC Hardball reporting that he got duped into believing that Plame was involved with intelligence work on Iran?

You bet!

Will all the others who believed it without being presented a single shred of proof or evidence admit they got duped?

Sure thing!

Rocco

The fact that Wilson lied about being told by Mayaki that an Iraqi delegation insisted on meeting in 1999 to discuss uranium begs the question...why did Wilson lie about that? Perhaps he was trying to misdirect attention from what happened in Niger in 1999. So I say, let's go there.

Mayaki is a common denominator in all of this. He was part of the same Ibrahim Bare Mainassara Junta that ultimately murdered Mainassara in a coup in early 99. He was involved in Mainassara's murder, publically stating it was an unfortunate accident.

Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, who was the Prime Minister under Mainassara’s regime, was re-appointed to the same position by Wanke.

So it would follow that Mayaki was there to greet Qaddafi in 97.

Colonel Qaddafi and a large entourage arrived aboard four Libyan Airlines Boeing 727 jets and was met by Niger's President, Ibrahim Bare Mainassara.

And Mayaki would have been there in Feb 99 when both Zahawie and Khan travled to Niger.

And Mayaki told Wilson Iraq tried to buy uranium in 99. Why did Wilson try to hide this?

For what it's worth, this link is from Islam Online with an install on demand pop-up that imediately loads when opened.

Issoufou, the second winner of votes, had a more reputable record than Mamadou. However, the latter was associated with a government that ruled at a time when the uranium boom was present, the good old days as viewed by many. Nigeriens.

lurker

"But today's news about Plame does suggest some very interesting motivations behind the betrayal of Mrs. Wilson by the WH, ultimately through Novak."

Ah, but "today's news" look to be incorrect and inaccurate.

Two INR memos can make a huge difference in the government world and IC.

lurker

AJStrata have been spot on on many points of this story. Incidentally, the INR memo story is simply one small example of his argument towards Jeff.

lurker

Even The Gray Lady Has Run Out Of Patience

Time for Fitz to show the cards or fold.

And time for Corn and Isikoff to admit there were no consipracies involved in this non-story.

And time for the left wing followers to follow suit.

lurker

I see that AJStrata has a post up about these two memos at his site.

lurker

Jeff, do you really believe that the WH adm (including OVP, Lewis, et al) had every intent to discredit the Wilsons and destroy their careers? Do you really believe that Rove, Cheney, and Lewis are EEEVVVIIILLL and should be frog-marched off the WH lawn? Do you really believe in Fitz's investigation?

sad

From the New York Observer - a true believer

http://nyobserver.com/20060911/20060911_Joe_Conason_opinions_conason.asp

lurker

Jonah Goldberg:

Media's Bigger Embarrassment: Karr, or Plame?

Jane

Add Joe Conason to the list.

sad

Jane

Just caught up on the other thread and found him already there. We've got earlier birds and late night owls!

Lurker

:) AJStrata was Plamed-out but had to post about NYT's "Fitz, show all of your cards or fold" article.

Sue

At least Corn has cleared up for us whether or not Val was the silent partner or incidental spouse behind Joe's lies. Since it was about the same time the VIPS called on people within the IC to speak up, we can safely assume she did so, through Joe.

boris

recognize the import of of AJ's point about the striking nature of such repackaging in light of chain of custody issues

For Jeff The Memo is the smoking gun, his proof that classified intel was leaked.

For others the July memo reeks. In another thread I suggested it was borderline planted evidence to frame Libby.

Jeff's storyline depends on the memos being exactly what he claims, but the gratuitous mention of Valerie in two redundant memos without explicit warning of her classification (if she had any) looks like Grossman papering over guilty knowledge to protect himself or Armitage. Sure seems like somebody wanted to make sure "everybody knew".

Sue

Maybe someone needs to read that to her really slowly.

You do it. She doesn't like me.

boris

an effort to make little Val seem so important

Reminds me of the deep pocket ploy. The wealthy defendent being sued had nothing to do with the injury so play on sympathy for the plaintif so the jury will stick it to somebody (anybody). Show up in neck brace, cast and crutches for a twisted ankle.

Sue

Didn't someone say earlier that Libby never saw the June memo?

Jeff

For Jeff The Memo is the smoking gun, his proof that classified intel was leaked.

Oh brother, it looks like AJ passed boris whatever he'd been smoking.

I do love all this talk of the planted INR memo and such.

And yes, Sue, Fitzgerald has asserted or stipulated that Libby did not see the June memo. I love your use of the Corn, by the way. Good save.

The silence over at the Corner - and I'd like to single out Cliff May, who after all this time has yet to explain his role in the case, what he told the FBI, whether he sticks by his story that he was told about Plame, who his source was and how he made the inference that it was known all over town - yesterday over the disclosure that Plame's job was certainly more significant than most on the right have been asserting for years, indeed than I think most of us thought was deafening.

clarice

lurker, Capt Ed is right--except for one thing. He thinks Fitz is being supervised by a panel of judges, but, unlike previous independent prosecutors, he isn't.

As to the INR..It could be legit, though the double dating is odd. It could be a set up. OR, it could be that Armitage told Grossman about his conversation with Woodward and this was designed to cover Armitage's ass. If the memo to him wasn't dated until later and he refused to give Woodward the waiver, it would cover--did cover--his ass rather well, didn't it?

I think it may well have been done by Grossman to protect his bosses.

boris

IIRC the original claim was the info about Val was leaked from the July memo faxed to AirForce1. That theory is busted because Armitage leaked to Woodward in June.

IIRC Libby never saw either memo, but Grossman claims he informed Libby about Val in a meeting that discussed Joe's trip. Libby doesn't recall the Val detail.

A lot of speculation is based on players at State playing it straight and taking their spin at face value. If they aren't credible then none of that speculation is either.

Jeff, my claim isn't that the memo was planted, just that it's fishy for a number of reasons. IOW it "looks like Grossman papering over guilty knowledge to protect himself or Armitage." That is has been used by yourself and others to frame Libby for something he didn't do, the "evidence planting" would be on your head.

boris

the disclosure that Plame's job was certainly more significant

The significance of her job has never been an issue on the right. One expects there might be some enhancements on Val's shiny new resume compared to what she actually did. Like drive to work at CIA everyday with a CIA parking lot sticker on her car.

Jeff

IIRC the original claim was the info about Val was leaked from the July memo faxed to AirForce1. That theory is busted because Armitage leaked to Woodward in June.

My friend, emptywheel pointed out long ago and has tirelessly repeated since that the initial coverage of the INR memo aboard AF1 was transparently designed to point the finger at Powell and Fleischer. The theory is indeed busted, it appears, but not only because of Armitage's leak to Woodward in June, as well as to Novak in July. That coverage was driven by leaks from the White House, as emptwheel astutely saw. So YDNRC, exactly.

boris

INR memo aboard AF1 was transparently designed to point the finger at Powell and Fleischer

First time for that spin. Don't hang at EW and don't care.

The AF1 memo absolutely has been proffered as the source for the intel that OVP leaked.

Only they didn't and it wasn't.

The point you pretend to not get is that State was playing games with the intel and has behaved badly. Therefore any speculation based on their spin is not credible.

Lurker

"The silence over at the Corner - and I'd like to single out Cliff May, who after all this time has yet to explain his role in the case, what he told the FBI, whether he sticks by his story that he was told about Plame, who his source was and how he made the inference that it was known all over town - yesterday over the disclosure that Plame's job was certainly more significant than most on the right have been asserting for years, indeed than I think most of us thought was deafening."

The Corner wasn't exactly silent about the recent articles. Jonah Goldberg, Andrew McCarthy, and Byron York wrote articles about the latest on the non-story. You mentioned one and only one name, Clifford Mays without mentioning the other three. I don't know about Clifford Mays but perhaps he will write something later.

It would be nice had the State come forward with explanations of these two memos but they haven't. Has the State been given a Gag order over this non-story?

Who knows. Actually, the *WHOLE* non-story is fishy. Not just these two versions of an INR memo.

So, Jeff, you still believe in all of these conspiracy stories in any shape, way, form, and words (e.g., vendetta, thuggish act, discredibility, career destroy acts, etc.)?

Sue

I love your use of the Corn, by the way. Good save.

????

lurker

"That coverage was driven by leaks from the White House, as emptwheel astutely saw."

Not really. How come? Because there weren't any leaks coming from the White House.

Remember that there would have been indictments by now already and there haven't been any. But you really do believe that evil Rove and Cheney actually did leak Plame's identity, huh?

MayBee

As for Cliff May- his story was actually a friend's story. Libby's lawyer has said in court he has 5 witnesses that will say under oath that Wilson had talked about his CIA wife in public.
Perhaps one of those is May's friend.

jean

I would just like to thank everyone on this blog.I have read every post and am in awe of all knowledge here. My only question is who is Jeff? He seems to have a dog in this hunt.Thanks again for all the information .

Sue

emptywheel pointed out long ago

Forgive me if I don't get too excited about EW's pointing out.

maryrose

jean:
"Who is Jeff"
That is the 64000 dollar Question.

MayBee

My friend, emptywheel pointed out long ago and has tirelessly repeated since that the initial coverage of the INR memo aboard AF1 was transparently designed to point the finger at Powell and Fleischer. The theory is indeed busted, it appears, but not only because of Armitage's leak to Woodward in June, as well as to Novak in July. That coverage was driven by leaks from the White House, as emptwheel astutely saw

So basically she had the names wrong and the dates wrong. And she was wrong about at whose behest the ruse was designed. But she repeatedly claimed the leaks came from the White House.

Hmmmm...no wonder she is friends with Joe Wilson!

sad

***My only question is who is Jeff?***

Let's start a pool!!!!

Extraneus

Again, if Valerie Plame-Wilson was the nation's top undercover secret agent, who for years had been tirelessly and single-handedly protecting us from multi-faceted WMD horrors we couldn't even begin to comprehend, only to be cruelly stripped of the ability to continue doing so by this supposed "outing," how would that lessen the national-security impact of Joe's reckless and selfish antics which led to the outcome? I guess I don't get that.

clarice

That's because you think linearly not retrogenitally, like Hamsher and Conason, exraneous.

Patrick R. Sullivan

There are three things about Corn's claims about the importance of Val's position that jump out.

1. The higher she was on the Totem Pole, the more likely it WAS her idea to send Joe to Africa.

2. The more she knew about CIA missions, the less likely she was to be out in the field--Eisenhower didn't go ashore on D-Day.

3. The more important her job the more reckless her husband to go out in public and talk about her work.

Anyway, I don't believe Corn's stories. He's got her being given more power at the same time she'd given birth to twins and suffering post-partum depression.

Sue

Patrick,

I was skirting around that idea last night. With her twins being born in January 2000, she could have been back in the swing of it by mid-summer 2001. I kind of backed off. But it still seemed odd that the CIA allowed her to handle very sensitive information, that soon after suffering a disease that causes paranoia, etc.

owl

Boy, there is really an effort to make little Val seem so important. Wasn't it only several months ago that she was single handedly going to rescue us from Iran except the evil neocons conspired to "out" her.

True. But I actually think there is a grain of truth in some of Mama Corn's latest bs. Tiny wee bit, and once again a combo Wilson/MSM/DNC production.

Always disagreed about 'our shy gal Val'. No way. She shows up every step of the way as the ringleader.

IF any small part of Mama Corn's info is correct, it explains why Fitz (if he happened to not be a pure hack) and the judges let this thing be driven. Just enough of a grain of truth that the Wilsons could spin it.

It all depended on Joe The Debunker sent at the behest. "Bush lied, folks died" CYA.

It even makes a weird sort of sense about Slam Dunk Tenet....he was HAD by his own people. Wilson saying we would probably find WMDs in Iraq....until we didn't find the Mother Load....so then to cover azzz....bingo. They made a fool of Tenet and I bet he didn't know which way to step. Bet his crew watched some being moved and then bingo...they produce the forgotten forgeries.

What a messy little Val.

Mama Corn needs to be asked who is spoon feeding him his classifies.

Why is shy Val not sitting in prison for life?

topsecretk9

--What a messy little Val.

Mama Corn needs to be asked who is spoon feeding him his classifies.

Why is shy Val not sitting in prison for life?--

Oh she has been every bit as blabby as her dear hair-sprayed hubbie...wonder if she had to take one of those lie-detector test (maybe right before her forced leave?)

Wilson's a liar

Val doesn't need to go to jail, as she is in her own personal prison right now, and deservedly so. She is stuck married to a lying narcissist without a real job to support her in the style he promised, with the realization that he used her, ruined her career, and lied to her as well as everyone else he talked to. Instead of being Mrs. Secretary of State, she is Mrs. Laughingstock.

The Wilsons have been hung out to dry by their former benefactors at the Washington Post and New York Times. They had more than their 15 minutes, but in the end, they will sink into the rotten fever swamp from whence they came.

jerry

Extraneus, Wilson disagreed with the Administration in public before and after the war - a whole lot more powerful and knowledgable people should have done this, frankly.

IMO what he did was neither selfish nor reckless... a public figure speaking out before nations are drawn into a war is a selfless act, his disagreements also didn't harm national security, unless criticising the WH is now rated as a grave threat to the nation.

What lead to "the outcome" was: Novak's public disclosure of Plame, a WH strategy to respond to Wilson (that came to involve his wife, though most details of this remain secret), a law that makes it illegal for government officials to identify CIA agents, a complaint by the CIA, and a decision by the DOJ to investigate the complaint.

"Retrogenitally" Clarice?

Dan Collins

Corn can be converted into ethanol.

sad

But Val will always have her victim status and her legal defense fundraising. David Cornball alluded to it in Hubris. Her next battle will be with the CIA and what they will allow in her memoir. It will be the CIA's fault that the book is no good because they won't let her tell the "truth" in her book. Lefties will continue to pay speaker fees to hear what they want to hear... The Plames will be able to live off of this for quite awhile.

clarice

Retrogenitally--if your genitals are backwards, where's your ass?

No, there was a marked difference in the many public statements Wilson made about the war before the May 2003 Senate Democratic Campaign Committee , chaired by Schumer and minutes scrubbed than in his statements afterward.

Before he was a Scowcroftian, arguing for continued sanctions and containment. It was only after than meeting (and his chat with Kristof at which Val was most certainly present) that he raised the Mission, the forgeries, the behest scenario.

The record on that is crystal clear.

Sue

a public figure speaking out before nations are drawn into a war is a selfless act

Where did he do this?

topsecretk9

Rush is going off on WIlson right now, WIlson has never gone before the grand jury, get Wilson before the grand jury...pretty brutal

lurker

"IMO what he did was neither selfish nor reckless... a public figure speaking out before nations are drawn into a war is a selfless act, his disagreements also didn't harm national security, unless criticising the WH is now rated as a grave threat to the nation."

So Joe Wilson doesn't think his criticism and disagreement affected the national security? So why did he file a lawsuit against Cheney, Rove, and Lewis when he thinks the WH criticized Joe Wilson and chose not to consider his report? Seems one-sided.

White House knows that criticism against WH is not considered a grave risk to our national security.

Sue

The latest revelations from David Corn and Michael Isikoff confirm what me and my CIA colleagues (Jim Marcinkowski, Michael Grimaldi, and Brent Cavan) have said for the last three years--Valerie Plame Wilson was an undercover security officer when her relationship with the CIA was exposed by Rober Novak.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/sep/05/gee_valerie_was_undercover>Scary Larry

Gee, Larry, if Corn is just recyclying what your CIA colleagues were saying, is that really confirmation?

Slartibartfast

I don't buy this in-and-out-of-cover bit, either. How does that work, exactly?

owl

The record on that is crystal clear.

It sure is and they seem determined to ignore all the Iraq statements that came from the Clinton administration. So.....did the Clintonees just make it up or getting it from somewhere? They think we have zero memory and Bush created the world.

clarice

As far as I can tell, Slart, it works like this--Harlow and the INR can be careless with her name without warning anyone that disclosure might be a problem while Corn and the VIPS spread the word after disclosure that she was undercover,and the prosecutor can claim in his presser her position was classified and then when put to proof, say it's not important and he won't--it's the old dance of the seven veils.

Bob

Good point lurker on a most bone headed comment by jerry:

IMO what he did was neither selfish nor reckless... a public figure speaking out before nations are drawn into a war is a selfless act, his disagreements also didn't harm national security, unless criticising the WH is now rated as a grave threat to the nation.

Does the fact that Wilson's lied and his report actually confirmed the Bush's take on Iraq still make him your hero?

The Senate Intelligence Committee found, finally, that far from debunking the Iraq-Niger story, Mr. Wilson's debrief was interpreted as providing "some confirmation of foreign government service reporting" that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger. Why? Because he'd reported that former Nigerien Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki had told him of a 1999 visit by the Iraqis to discuss "commercial relations," which the leader of the one-industry country logically interpreted as interest in uranium.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005354>
The Yellow Cake Con

So jerry, stop the horse shit already! facts!

maryrose

Owl: I totally concur with your assessment. Val is in this up to her eyeballs and should expect some kind of reprimand or public exposure of how she played fast and loose with the truth. Her husband exposed her position and then tried to blame others.I think many people Tenet included were made fools of by people that shouldn't even have had access to important classified information. Powell and Armitage not stepping up is a real black mark against their honesty and integrity. Fitz telling them to be silent is just weird.

Patrick R. Sullivan

'With her twins being born in January 2000, she could have been back in the swing of it by mid-summer 2001.'

Corn has her traveling to Jordan to talk about the aluminum tubes. The first reports from the CIA on that was in April 2001. And, the conclusion the CIA came to was that they were for nuclear centrifuges.

But, why would Val have gone overseas for that when she had no tech background at all.

Jane

WIlson has never gone before the grand jury, get Wilson before the grand jury...

So why exactly didn't this very sloppy prosecutor call Wilson, and Val, to testify in the grand jury?

maryrose

Clinton and cronies are trying their best to hide all their mistakes in prosecuting the war on terror. From Sandy Berger to their attempt to edit a mivie describing events before 9/11. They know they totally marginalized our security with their Gorelick wall which is why Jamie was chosen to be on that committee. To deflect attention and scrutiny away from Clintonites who totally dropped the balland missed 3 chances of getting Bin Laden. I just remember Clinton on Larry King saying"I would hunt down Bin Laden if I could...

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Wilson/Plame