Moving Off The Fence

The Senate has closed debate on the "enforcement only" fence bill; Bill Frist says a vote on the bill will be scheduled for next week:

The Senate today gave up on comprehensive immigration reform and instead advanced a bill that would authorize a fence along one-third of the U.S. border with Mexico.

By a tally of 94 to 0, the Senate voted to limit debate on the bill to build a barrier to those trying to sneak across the border along two regions, one running from Calexico, Calif., to Douglas, Ariz., and the other in Laredo, Texas.

...Frist said the Senate would cast a final vote on the fence bill next week. "Securing our borders is a major step forward in addressing comprehensive immigration reform," he said.

Senate Democrats were disappointed by the fence bill, although they voted to limit debate on it.

"We can build the tallest fence in the world and it won't fix our broken immigration system," said Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.). "To do that we need the kind of comprehensive reform that the Senate passed earlier this year."

John McCain, Presidential wanna-be, has been an advocate of comprehensive reform, but... can the man who has already irked conservatives with his McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform further annoy conservatives over the next two weeks by both holding up the President's bill on military tribunals and opposing the fence?

I suppose he could, if he is intending to run as a third party candidate (McCain-Lieberman '08!).  But if he wants the Republican nomination, I expect McCain will see benefits to coming back to the fold on one or both of these issues.

Comments

[freaknik]

So this is a defeat for Bush, right?

[clarice]

It's hard to decide which prospect I find scarier:McCain or Hillary as the next President.

[Bob]

Your right clarice, it's getting hard to tell them apart. I just can't figure out McCain's end game... well that's if he has one!

This kind of crap won't get him even past the primary, let alone the POTUS

[Cecil Turner]

So this is a defeat for Bush, right?

And the country, unfortunately. This may be a relatively small step toward a permanent underclass, but it's a wrongheaded approach, IMHO. However, it looks like I'm outvoted.

[Neo]

McCain's stance on First Amendment issues should, but for some reason doesn't, kill him in most states.
McCain's stance on Second Amendment issues will kill him in most southern states.

The only way John McCain could survive the Republican primaries is if he is only running against Rudy G.

[freaknik]

And Bush can't veto this because...

[Terrye]

I don't agree with this approach, but I do not want a filibuster either. Is this a defeat for Bush? I am not sure. I think it is a defeat for the center.

In Bush's immigration speech he did say that the border needed to be secured, but he also said that the larger issues needed to be dealt with and about two thirds of the American people seemed to agree with him on this issue.

However, the fence only people were prepared to see their own party defeated in the midterms rather than compromise one iota. Fine, they get what they want, but they could have gotten their border fence without doing so much damage. I know I resent it and will not forget it. I intend to show them the same kind of loyalty they showed Bush. Which is none.

BTW, about 50% of the illegals in this country did not cross that border so that fence would not have stopped them. And the larger issues of how to deal with the people here and how to see to it that certain industries like agriculture get the labor they need will not be dealt with at all.

I just hope we don't have to hear much more from the Buchanan wing of the party. Or maybe Pat will be feeling his oats now, I heard his saying the other day that he felt he was far more powerful now than he had been in a long time thanks to the immigration issue. He got his way on immigration perhaps he will feel emboldened to push his anitwar Zionists taking over America foreign policy.

This is about more than McCain. People need to get past their constant snark about him. It is getting old.

[azredneck]

A couple of weeks ago, I stated here that I would vote reluctantly for McCain over any Democrat. I take it back.
Rudy never looked so good to me!

[Specter]

freaky - because it is election year. But that said, it is at least one step. It is far from what everyone seems to want.

According to FNC, there is no money to pay for the fence though. It appears that there may be $1B set up by vote for it through a Homeland Security measure next week - provided them money is allocated.

So what do we really have? A Congress that can't agree on anything, but will pass something with no funding to make it look like they are actually doing something. Just in time for elections.....

[Terrye]

freaknick:

I doubt Bush would veto it because he supports a border fence. For the life of me I do not understand why so many people seem to think the border fence and immigration reform are mutually exclusive. They are not.

In truth a deal might have been made to do the fence now and debate immigration reform after the election. I guess we will find out.

[Terrye]

freaknick:

I doubt Bush would veto it because he supports a border fence. For the life of me I do not understand why so many people seem to think the border fence and immigration reform are mutually exclusive. They are not.

In truth a deal might have been made to do the fence now and debate immigration reform after the election. I guess we will find out.

[Terrye]

Sorry about the double post.

[Rick Ballard]

This was decided in the Arizona primary. The Republican national committees threw a lot of money - more than I've ever seen them spend - behind the moderate and the Tancretin candidate still won rather handily in AZ-08. Graf (the winner) is now getting national help and the Tancretins now have the attention of the Senate gasbags who should have put this to rest at the beginning of the summer.

I'm with Cecil on this - it's a stupid move and will turn out to be unhealthy for the country.

[freaknik]

LMAO: the Cretin won...a stupid move...unhealthy for the country...

Welcome to my world!

[boris]

Agreeing to build a fence is not the same as actually having one. It is likely that agreeing to build one is absolutely necessary to move the debate to a place where a comprehensive approach can at least be discussed without ear splitting screechy tantrums.

Can't this be used to browbeat the Tancretin wing "ok ok you get your fence, now get off your sorry butts and vote Republican like the vikings you pretended to be!"?

[boris]

Welcome to my world!

In what galaxy?

[JM Hanes]

A loss for the Prez perhaps, but a win for Repbulicans on election day.

[maryrose]

JMHANES:
Something is better than nothing.We'll get the rest of the reforms later.

[lurker]

I don't see it as a defeat for or against Bush.

I now wonder how this fence will work with SPP, TTC, NASCO, NAFTA, and CAFTA? I had wondered why Bush wasn't pushing for a physical fence. After hearing something about TTC and NASCO, I now understand.

[lurker]

Aside from SPP, TTC, NASCO, NAFTA, NAU, NAUT, and CAFTA, if we were to solve the immigration issues, the fence "enforcement only" has to be addressed first, then worry about immigration reform later.

Otherwise, if the fence wasn't put up, then immigration reform would be overflown with new immigrants continuing to come across our borders.

But SPP, and all of its acronyms may lead to some North American Union. If it does, then it brings in different problems.

[Terrye]

Rick:

The fence only people lost in Utah so they decided to go somewhere more friendly to their view and managed to win a primary. So the elections cancelled each other out and I assume that meant it was not worth the headache for the GOP to fight it right now. And of course the Democrats don't have to, it was Bush's policy after all.

And I think the whole fence first thing is silly anyway, the fence was always going to be first, it is just a fence. As long as the money and the manpower is there it will not be that big a deal. The other reforms would take a lot of time and debate which means they would always have come later anyway.

[steve sturm]

Something smells here... when does the Senate ever pass (or, in this case, limit debate on) something controversial with a 94-0 vote? 94-0 votes are reserved for the silly, the celebratory... not for something that provokes as much argument as how to tackle immigration reform. Why, for instance, would blue state Democrats, especially those not running for re-election this year, throw in the towel and let the 'enforcement first' people have what they want? Something tells me there's more to this than what it appears to be...

[azredneck]

For most of us opposed to the Senate version, it was always ENFORCEMENT first, rather than strictly a fence. The admin has begun some of that along the border, and has gained some traction with border voters.
The real question has always been, 'if you can't track the visa program, deport offenders, protect the existing social systems currently, how can you possibly talk about the expansion provided by so-call comprehensive reform?'
Show us than you can FIRST.

[azredneck]

Steve: right! Even sure thing votes usually have 25-35 no votes from the Dems.

[Laddy]

The vote was for cloture I believe. The actual vote will be next week.

[stan]

McCain has generated so much ill will among the GOP voters, that the nomination is simply not a very realistic possibility. There are too many of us out here who will go door to door against him in the primary. (And I don't know anyone who has ever gone door-to-door for a primary with a message of anyone but this jerk).

Forget the polls. The loyal GOP voters who pay enough attention to actually go vote in primaries will not vote for him.

[topsecretk9]

video at Hotair....

Anti-”torture” absolutists like Sullivan adamantly deny that harsh tactics produce reliable information. It’s their way of avoiding the moral dilemma presented by a ticking time-bomb scenario. But they’ll have to face it now, because in four short minutes Brian Ross utterly explodes that particular article of quasi-religious faith as fantasy. Not only did they break Khaled Sheikh Mohammed; not only was the information he gave them valuable; not only did it save lives; but Ross’s sources include people within the CIA who are opposed to the practices.

The best part, though? Learning that Ramzi Binalshibh cried like a three-year-old girl.

[topsecretk9]

rats...forgot.
Allahpundit ends with

Hard decision time for St. John of Tucson. Choose carefully, Senator.

[clarice]

That is an interesting report. How many times have we heard people say that harsh interrogation never yields worthwhile information, but per Ross, these techniques fended off a number of attacks, including a major one in Los Angeles.

[SunnyDay]

St. John of Tucson

HAHAHAHAHA!! Perfect!

[Terrye]

I don't think the stink was just about getting a fence first, people like Pat Buchanan made it very plain that the average Mexican is part of a plot to take over the southwest so any move at all to give them any sort of legal status was treason. They wanted all 10 million of them rounded up and shipped out and become billigerent as hell when anyone suggested anything else.

I know I left the Democrats because of that kind of simplistic knee jerk arrogant posturing and I was not happy about finding it among the Republicans. That whole big tent thing only seems to count at elections.

[Shad]

Er, Terrye, maybe it's left over from your days as a Democrat, but you're the one doing the simplistic knee jerk arrogant posturing by equating everyone who values the integrity of U.S. sovereignty and borders with Pat Buchanan.

You've done this on several fora, and your repeated insinuations that everyone who disagrees with you on this issue is just a xenophobic racist are no longer welcome.

[boris]

everyone who disagrees with you on this issue is just a xenophobic

The issue histronics seem more to your side of the discussion. If we can't move forward without "your fence" then at least can we move without the hissy fits?

Nobody's demanding a fence on the Candaian border, so apparently the issue is more than just "integrity of U.S. sovereignty and borders".

[Shad]

I'm sure people will start demanding a fence on the Canadian border if we ever see a decades-long pattern of a million or so illegal Canadian immigrants crossing over annually.

You seem more interested in calling anyone who doesn't agree with you on unrestricted immigration across completely open borders a stupid racist, than in making a rational argument trying to persuade people that your policy is better.

Most people see through the "vote for us because we're kindhearted and our opponents are stupid and evil" self-righteous preening pretty quickly, which is why the strategy hasn't worked to put Democrats back in power. And that's why it doesn't work for the open borders proponents either.

[boris]

million or so illegal Canadian immigrants

BS there is no concern about Canadians living here legal or not. Spell it out.

[boris]

doesn't work for the open borders proponents either

More BS. Advocating prudent comprehensive reform that includes a realistic approach concerning immigrants who already have experience with US culture and language is not "open borders proponents".

[boris]

a stupid racist

More BS. Crybaby BS to boot. OTOH you clearly are not being completely open about your agenda.

[Jane]

I demand a fence on the Canadian Border!

[Shad]

Denouncing people who disagree with your "prudent comprehensive reform that includes a realistic approach concerning immigrants who already have experience with US culture and language" as crybabies who are full of BS is rather unpersuasive, boris (even if you do spam the namecalling across multiple comments).

People who are concerned about massive illegal immigration aren't particularly concerned about Canada for the same reason they're not particularly concerned about Swaziland, Mongolia, Morocco, Argentina, Finland, Russia, or Luxemburg -- namely, there aren't a million illegal immigrants entering the U.S. from any of those countries every year.

You don't install insulation in your attic to stop flooding in your basement, and building a fence along the Canadian border to stop the illegal immigration which overwhelmingly comes from Mexico would be similarly asinine.

[JM Hanes]

Terrye:

"For the life of me I do not understand why so many people seem to think the border fence and immigration reform are mutually exclusive."

I don't either. If you can't control your border, you can't control illegal immigration. I favor comprehensive immigration reform, but I see no reason not to make illegal crossings more difficult in the meantime. In fact, doing so may actually put some pressure on the folks who rely on a free flow of cheap illegal laborers to come to the bargaining table -- and on Mexico too if the current benefits of stonewalling reform, so to speak, get harder to reap.

[boris]

disagree with your "prudent comprehensive reform that includes a realistic approach concerning immigrants who already have experience with US culture and language"

The term crybaby wasn't used because of diagreement. It was raised for crying like a baby.

Go right ahead and disagree with "prudent comprehensive reform". It fits right in with claiming that the reason nobody's concerned with Canadians living here legal or not is bcause there aren't any.

[Terrye]

Shad:

I am not calling anyone names. I am just saying that I have seen people make this a lot uglier than it had to be.

[Terrye]

BTW, does this vote mean that the grown ups who are only concerned about our national security will stop threatening to sit out the next election and hand the Congress to the Democrats?

[Terrye]

JM:

I don't have a problem with the fence, I never did.

So many people on the enforcement only side acted as if immigration reform was somehow a threat to their getting their precious fence, not so. Inevitabley the discussion would become a screaming match with one side trying to talk about a guest worker program and the other screaming no amnesty and how all illegals are criminals and should be tracked down and kicked out and on and on. That was not necessary, it just created bad feelings.

[Derek]

"We can build the tallest fence in the world and it won't fix our broken immigration system," said Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) That made my morning. How would it not fix the illegal immigration problem? He wants to sit around and talk about it some more? Illegal immigration has rapidly become a major concern. Every day that this concern is overlooked, an estimated 822 more illegal aliens will have invaded the United States (calculated from Census 02). Those who support undocumented immigration will tell awful stories about the countries these people have fled from; these stories are smoke and mirrors. These stories do not nullify the $40 billion of taxpayers money expedited every year in compensating for these non-tax paying illegal inhabitants; nor the concerns of terrorism; these stories do not rid the possible health risks of diseases that had been nearly or entirely eradicated by the U.S. health systems, now entering through a medium of illegal immigration; nor do they explain the deaths and injuries caused by these illegal aliens. The deficits are weighing heavily on the United States and, thereby, on the shoulders of every documented, tax paying American citizen. The problem can be focused primarily on border control; I do not know where Harry Reid was going with his statement. If the United States developed a wall that could not be breached, rather than a fence, around its borders this crisis could be resolved, stabilizing the population while making the United States a safer place to live. Moreover, if they developed a High Security train station set up much like an international airport and shut off the roadways altogether, then we could kill drug trafficing and other illegal activities while we were at it. Set up an intricate bus system and open up the automobile rental business on both sides. This seems asininely more logical than giving these undocumented aliens in-state tuition?