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September 27, 2006

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Sue

I guess I'll believe your jaundiced memory. ::grin::

Access to the weblog you have requested has been suspended.

Daniel DiRito

See a tongue-in-cheek visual of the Grand Opening of "Tortureland"...here:

www.thoughttheater.com

Gary Maxwell

Well I agree with Jack Balkin. Democrats by and large are spineless. And they all deserve to lose. So the coeefficent of correlation between him and me is damn near 1.00. Funny that we mean something entirely different by the remarks.

JohnH

TM, I would add a little to your analysis of how hard it will be for the Dems to win the Senate.

When you say the Dems must win all their leaners and all four toss-ups, that sounds difficult. But that implicitly assumes that Reps win all of their leaners. A better way to say it is that the Dems have to win all of their leaners and four of the group of toss-ups and Rep leaners. That expands the opportunity set a little.

It also works the other way, obviously.

Say, I've been wondering: is this a humor site or a serious national security education site?

Does it matter?

cathyf

Tell me that I'm not imagining things... Did Jack Balkin really say that suspending habeas corpus is the same as torture? So -- how many Americans out there do you think there are who know what habeas corpus is? How many do you think can spell habeas corpus?

cathyf
Say, I've been wondering: is this a humor site or a serious national security education site?
Yes.
Rick Ballard

is this a humor site or a serious national security education site?

How 'bout a serious national security education site for people with a sense of humor? The quality of the NIE release suggests that a sense of humor is a real plus when considering the competence of our intelligence analysts.

Neo

The Democratic solution to "coercive interrogation" will be to compartmentalize it, or a bit simpler, make sure that US citizens apprehended in the US are not classified "enemy combatants."
This way it only applies to foreigners, or any fool to get him/herself caught in a US CIA/military operation outside the country.
This too amounts a bit like the Al Gore's position, except it makes sure no voters get caught.

Lew Clark

I think this is another example of the New New Democratic plan to win in November. They know that the electorate is disenchanted with the Republicans, but they also know, that every time they open their mouths they show themselves as a worse alternative. So they are going to non-run, non-politic. They are banking on people's short memories. They're hoping a voter will go into the polling booth and say, "hmmm, this Republican guy, I've heard bad things about him. This other guy, I never heard of him. Democratic Party, I didn't know they were still around. I'll just give them a try for a change."

maryrose

The only other memory that makes me laugh as hard as Al Gore's death penalty moment{amidst the sighs} was Kerry on whether he supports abortion rights. It was in the second debate. His answer was as weasely as they come only topped by mentioning Cheney's daughter-a new low for a politician.

Tom Maguire

Say, I've been wondering: is this a humor site or a serious national security education site?

This very morning I asked myself a similar question - is this the declassifed NIE or a Jay Leno monologue?

As to your question - this site is as serious as the current political situation will allow.

sad

This very morning I asked myself a similar question - is this the declassifed NIE or a Jay Leno monologue?

Don't sell yourself short TM, you are far funnier than Jay Leno.

Forbes

I don't know if I can unwind exactly what Jack Balkin is wound up about, but a cursory reading says that he wants to give US Constitutional rights to non-Americans on foreign soil.

This strikes me as a non-starter for a large majority of Americans.

That there may be some question as to the specific nature of the terrorist, anti-US, anti-coalition, or enemy combatant activities of such foreigner so caught--only a lawyer could wallow in such details.

These legalistic questions seem to be raised by people in denial that the US is at war with Islamic terrorists and Islamofascists that wish to impose a global Caliphate--or that such a war may only be conducted on the basis of a law enforcement model (if only so as to handcuff our efforts).

Discussions of this sort can be advanced when examining isolated circumstances, but not when in denial of the overarching issue.

As a political issue, such a discussion is a non-starter, and the Democrats have responded accordingly--Balkin's disagreement notwithstanding.

noah

I don't get out much...in terms of hanging out at "progressive" sites. I did go over to Balkinisation (sp). I was really struck by the predominant belief system over there. They all seem to believe (I mean really believe) that we are a few short steps from a fascist police state unless the Republicans are stopped. Bizarre.

Jane

That is the common progressive "theme" in places I've watched over the years too, Noah. There is a wholesale reliance in only knowing half the story. It is the only way that theme can work. And you are right, well educated people (as well as those less well educated) believe it as if it is the most fundamentalist religion you can envision.

And I've also seen there is no way to penetrate the belief system. Facts don't help, because all sources of facts which fall out of that world view, are suspect. It is a truly amazing state of affairs. I've stopped any sort of dialogue with those folks because there is never a starting place.

noah

In fairness, there is no way to penetrate my belief system either...at least in regards to fundamental American values. I am a constitutionlist! There will not be a fascist police state on my watch. But I'm not interested in the "fantasy state" either...where hordes of tax-payer funded lawyers turn detainee trials into endless nitpicking over the rights of people that would cut my head off in a heartbeat.

richard mcenroe

"There is a wholesale reliance in only knowing half the story. It is the only way that theme can work."

Look at Clinton yelling "Read Richard Clarke!: or the selective NIE excerpts. Both ploys predicated on the expectation that most people are too uninformed to catch them out or too lazy to actually check...

noah

Been thinking about torture and the concept that some people are "pro-torture". When Michael Dukakis was asked the odious question about whether he would feel differently about capital punishment if his wife were raped and murdered (excuse me if after the fog of over two decades I mischaracterize the question). Dukakis damaged himself severely by answering the question as if it were merely a matter of public policy...he came across as inhuman.

Dukakis was right to say what he said, since he apparently believes sincerely that capital punishment should be abolished. It is a defensible position if only because large swaths of human communities have reached the same conclusion.

But we need to face up to the fact that on the micro-scale, human beings would uniformly kill a man who raped and killed his wife.

The torture debate is similar. I loathe the idea of torture. But it's a question of ends and means. Would I torture KSM for future plots against us? Hell yes. Whatever works is fine with me. These guys want to kill you, me, all that I hold dear. Fuck them.

noah

The debate reminds me of Josph Heller's novel "Catch-22"...the "hero" Yossarian thought that the Nazis wanted to kill him. No...they wanted to kill and defeat the forces arrayed against them, it wasn't personal..."just business". This war is different, the islamofascists have openly declared their desire to kill any American they can get their hands on. It is especially gratifying to me that Zarqawi is dead since my awakening to the reality of global jihad was the killing of Nick Berg by the same animal.

Neo

Let face facts, this whole debate has us arguing what "is" is, while our enemies readying their next idea for efficient ways to kill more of us.

Unfortunely, torture like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Watching MSNBC's Countdown is torture. If you disagree, I've made my point.

On other points, I can see making sure that US citizens apprehended in the US are not classified "enemy combatants." But I have a real problem with habeas corpus for anyone who starts as a battlefield detainee. I keep reading this like some folks believe you can "lawyer" war to death, or turn it into a "jobs" program.

Still some other lawyers appear to be trying to write themselves out of the war by claiming "facilitator" status. They aren't the only ones trying this, but, like those 2900 or so souls that died on 9/11, you don't get that choice.

They want to kill you

Syl

I don't know if I can unwind exactly what Jack Balkin is wound up about, but a cursory reading says that he wants to give US Constitutional rights to non-Americans on foreign soil.

Yeah.

Isn't that like shoving our values down their throats?

Then why do folks like him object to the democracy project?

Syl

At least our democracy project allows people in foreign countries to decide their OWN constitution.

Syl

Look at Clinton yelling "Read Richard Clarke!: or the selective NIE excerpts. Both ploys predicated on the expectation that most people are too uninformed to catch them out or too lazy to actually check...

Amen.

That's how Chomsky works, too. I saw him on BookTV a couple years ago and he mentioned a certain study which 'showed that..' blah blah. So I looked that study up on the 'net. And of course it showed the opposite of what he claimed.

clarice

OT: Here's Churchill's speech on Hitler's attack on Russia.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:CABmLScbqcwJ:www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/churchill062241.html+formalities+of+perfidy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1>Oratory

When will we ever hear such luscious oratory again?

topsecretk9

Late...but did anyone see Novak's swipe at Corn?

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=17258#2

He takes him to task for being a self serving reporter (do you get the feeling Iskoff signed on only for the royalties...like the story is dead so I'll give you all my newsweek background and say nothing? Isikoff has NOT been promoting, and the book is dead - so what up?


Anyhow Novak said this (which I know TM highlighted) --


At least the book rejects the canard reported by the Washington Post that the White House had been peddling the Valerie Plame story all over town (to at least six journalists) before it got to me. It also reveals the anonymous source of that bogus Post story – falsely described as a "senior administration official" -- as Adam Levine, an obscure mid-level communications aide who soon left the White House.---

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=17258#2

(I didn't notice anything new except for him disputing that he gave up his sources in a huff, FITZ came to him with them (poor EW)


ANYways, I am sure has been pointed out BUT makes more sense and in context when we know the scandal hoax promoter was

Adam Levine

Adam Levine is a media personality, well-known as a White House deputy press secretary in President George W. Bush's administration from 2001 to December 2003.

He has been questioned in connection with the Plame affair. Levine was one of the first people to testify for the CIA leak grand jury investigation. A former senior producer for NBC News, at one time Levine was senior producer in charge of "Hardball with Chris Matthew's." Earlier in his career Levine was a top aide to former U. S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Democrat from New York.

YEP. The impartial Chris Matthw squat was a "SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL" to the WAPO who by caveats perpetuated the hoax....

it has reached sick than sick but the left


It's pandemic,,,,,Plame ;;wink::

Daddy

Clarice,
Thanks for the Churchill. Absolutely brilliant.

Other Tom

"Bloodthirsty guttersnipe" is one of my favorites. It has always been remarkable to me that Churchill was using comparable language to describe Hitler long before any war had broken out, denouncing him and his "greengrocer generals" in the most scathing terms. I also relish the speech in which he vowed to "track this Nazi beast to his lair and rid the earth of his shadow." They don't make 'em like that anymore.

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Wilson/Plame