The Pain Of Kaus

With the news that Bill Frist will bring an "enforcement only" bill to the Senate floor, Mickey Kaus is struggling to keep a straight face and avoid a terminal case of "I-told-you-so-itis" - he has been telling us since at least last spring that the enforcement only route had high political appeal for Republicans, and he even did some premature gloating in May.

Well, let me chime in with some premature gloating of my own.  Bush's national security offensive seems to boosted his approval ratings and raised Republican prospects in the fall elections.

USA Today gives the NSA warrantless eavesdropping a mention but does not provide context:

Bush's terror-fighting techniques drew mixed reviews. A 55%-42% majority supported his policy of wiretapping phone conversations between U.S. citizens here and suspected terrorists in other countries without getting a court order.

Per the actual poll, last February the same question had a 47% approve / 50% disapprove response.  Now, maybe the "true" national mood has always been about 50/50 on this question and both of these polls are simply showing noise.  But in my gloating modality, I will assert that Bush (or the passage of time) has moved the needle in Bush's direction.  Let's repeat the question below, since I am sure you are curious:

17.  As you may know, the Bush administration has been   wiretapping telephone conversations between U.S. citizens living in the United   States and suspected terrorists living in other countries without getting a   court order allowing it to do so.  Do you think the Bush administration was   right or wrong in wiretapping these conversations without obtaining a court   order?

Let me just anticipate one more bit of bad news for Democrats - they have been hiding for weeks behind Republican Senators John McCain, Lindsay Graham, and John Warner
on the President's bill to establish military tribunals for terrorists.

But McCain has Presidential aspirations which conflict with his current posture, and talk of a compromise is in the air.

So where will the Democrats be if, come the weekend, media hero St. John blesses an administration bill on tribunals?  The time for Democrats to emerge as leaders will have long passed and Bush will rack up yet another "victory" (I am grouping that with his impending "victory" on immigration reform and whatever we finally get on warrantless eavesdropping).

These will all be tough votes for Democrats, as folks have been saying for months.

MORE:  At TradeSports, the probablity of Republicans retaining control of the House has moved up to 52%; at the Iowa Electronic Market the Reps are also at 52%.  The Reps bottomed out at 40% in early September at TradeSports.

RELATED:  Ezra Klein is very interesting on partisanship verus principles as it relates to McCain's prospects..

Comments

[Daniel DiRito]

This recent polling data tells me that voters have a clear perspective on the war in Iraq...perhaps more cogent than either Party. They feel it is being handled poorly, they know what a civil war looks like, they believe Congress has failed to do its part in guiding and overseeing the executive branch, and they realize that the notion of exporting democracy to the Middle East is a Bush Doctrine that fails to recognize the realities in the region. Finally, they believe that Middle East stability is important and that a withdrawal that leaves Iraq in chaos may well be detrimental to the United States.

That, my friends, is one spot on analysis and suggests that voters have discerned fact from fiction with an impressive demonstration of acuity. Perhaps both parties will someday learn that the truth is, in the final analysis, the most powerful campaign strategy available. Don't hold your breath.

Read more here:

www.thoughttheater.com

[Marcel]

The Torture Authorization and Amnesty Act will pass with or without John McCain's vote.

[paulv]

Above deranged anti Bush poster are tking this hard

[J]

The recent, now dying out polls, of Democrat "victories" was wonkish stuff, or Dem ploys for fundraising.

This is the third time around the Dems first said they have to run on domestic issues, focus on foreign, then cry when Bush hits back. To this day Dems and MSM CW assert the recent Bush push on Iraq and security was a push, not a push back to their own Iraq noise of about two months ago.

[Marcel]

No, not anti-Bush, but strongly pro-troops on the ground.

[Paul Zrimsek]

Recent polling data tells me... that voters are all Foggy Bottom careerists.

[clarice]

I heart Mickey Kaus. Unfortunately, he appears to be the last sentient Democrat standing.Fortunately, no one in his party seems to pay attention to him.

[Other Tom]

I'm quite sure I saw some Tradesports numbers down in the 30's a month or so ago.

I will add with great pride that both Mickey Kaus and Ted Wells were section-mates of mine in law school. Two truly good guys who have very deservedly done very well. Mickey had been on the Crimson staff at Harvard College, and while he could have been a hugely successful lawyer, journalism always came first with him. For those who haven't figured it out, he is a genuine, scrupulously honest liberal. Fine fellow.

[Other Tom]

Over the past five years I've become very skeptical of Gallup results, mostly because of their notorious volatility from one poll to the next. I seem to recall reading back during the 2004 campaign that they used some weighting technique that no other pollsters used, and that it was that technique that led to the volatility. Beyond that I can't recall much--anyone remeber what I'm talking about?

I also saw, perhaps three weeks or so ago, a pretty persuasive analysis suggesting that the "generic" numbers have always come out more favorable to the Democrats than the elections that followed. As I recall, the difference was around 6-7%, i.e. if the Dems were favored by that amount in the generic poll, the election numbers were likely to be about even. Did I imagine this?

[Wilson's a Liar]

I've been saying to anyone who will listen that Bush is playing this like a fiddle. Let all the heat focus on the debate over interrogation techniques. Let John McCain piss off most of the Republican base arguing for rights for terrorists. Then in the end strike a deal, in order to get the thing that is really important: the eavesdropping program.

Bush/Rove at their finest!

[TexasToast]

We are looking for a process where we can bring the killers to justice. Congress and the executive branch will have to decide if it’s appropriate to provide those kinds of protections to killers

-- Attorney General Alberto Gonzales

Oh really? What is wrong with the usual methods used to bring killers to justice?

(paraphrased from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/16/opinion/courtwatch/main1807212_page2.shtml ">CBS

According to the government’s own "Combatant Status Review Board Letters" (written determinations the Government has produced for detainees it has designated as enemy combatants… prepared following military hearings commenced in 2004… to ascertain whether a detainee should continue to be classified as an "enemy combatant."), …the large majority of detainees never participated in any combat against the United States on a battlefield.

1. Fifty-five percent of the detainees are not determined (again, remember that the "determination" was made by the government itself) to have committed any hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies
2. Sixty percent of the men were only "associated with" a terror group. Thirty percent of the men were deemed to be "members of" a terror group. Only eight percent of the detainees were deemed as "fighters for" a terror group
3. Of the remaining detainees, 40 percent have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and 18 percent have no definitive affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.
4. One detainee was deemed to have committed a "hostile act" when he fled a US bombing attack. Another detainee deemed to be "associated with the Taliban" who "engaged in hostilities" despite the fact that he was apparently a "cook’s assistant who fled a Northern Alliance attack and then surrendered to the Northern Alliance."
5. United States forces captured only five percent of the detainees.
6. 86 percent of the detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States custody. … the detainees captured by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance were handed over to the United States as a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected enemies.
7. According to the report, to support conclusions that some of the men are "enemy combatants", military interrogators "cited as proof" evidence such as the fact that the men possessed Casio watches and wore "olive drab clothing." One man was classified as "an enemy combatant" because he "traveled with and shared hotel rooms with" a member of the Taliban government.

Source – Seaton">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=885659">Seaton Hall Report

This is not to say that there are not some dangerous “killers” at Gitmo – but apparently there are a lot other folks too. All of these detainees are held as illegal non-combatants, and it is vital to our national security (and as your post highlights, to Republican electoral chances) to be “tough on terror” by reinterpreting Geneva, denying habeas corpus, denying the accused access to evidence used to convict, denying appropriate counsel, allowing unreliable hearsay, forum shopping, allowing “coerced” evidence, and enabling torture.

Wow.

PS

On the electoral front, the Senate seems to be in play now. Frankly, I’d prefer that you guys “win by losing”.

[Neo]

let's not forget Rep. "Ice Box" Jefferson (D-LA).

[Wilson's a Liar]

TexasToast - please share with us whatever you are smoking.

Democrats are goint to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yet again.

But thanks for playing.

[Neo]

From the start, Mr. Lamont has criticized Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman for being "too close" to President Bush. It's hypocritical enough that Mr. Lamont tried to quietly quit the snooty-toot Round Hill Club in Greenwich, known to the locals as "the Bush family's club." Now, his wife, Annie, has been outed as a regular contributor to a political-action committee that is supporting Sen. Lieberman.

BusinessWeek reports Mrs. Lamont is on the board of athenahealth, a software company. Oak Investment Partners, where Mrs. Lamont is a managing partner, helped bankroll athenahealth. So who do you suppose is athenahealth's CEO? No, not a descendent of Josef Stalin, but presidential cousin Jonathan S. Bush.

It leaves one to wonder what else the Lamonts have hiding in the Bushes.

[Gary Maxwell]

Hey TT

How is good ole what's his name, you know the guy running for Governor for your party doing? Last time I looked he was in 5th behind a new candidate named Undecided.

If you cant beat Perry ( and you cant twice running ) you should quit even calling yourself an organized party.

[Tom Maguire]

I'm quite sure I saw some Tradesports numbers down in the 30's a month or so ago.

I expect you did - the contract low is apparently 30, but it does not show up on the graph so I ignored that (sometimes individual prices really do deserve to be smoothed out.)

And the Iowa market bottomed in August.

[Tom Maguire]

From Texas CharGuy:

This is not to say that there are not some dangerous “killers” at Gitmo – but apparently there are a lot other folks too.

My understanding is that Bush wants to exempt the CIA interogators in their secret prisons from the standard rules now incorporated in the Army Field Manual, so the exceptions would only apply to special high value prisoners.

So we won't be beating the tar out of everyone gratuitously; only the few, the proud, the uncommunicative.

[Other Tom]

As of September 10, 2001 neither Mohammed Attta nor any of his eighteen colleagues had committed a hostile act against the United States. For me, and I suspect for most Americans, if it's shown that the guy has gone through terrorist training to prepare him for such acts, and has taken the usual vows to murder as many American citizens as possible, that's good enough for me. Throw 'em in Gitmo, and keep 'em there till the hostilities are over.

As for "what is wrong with the usual methods used to bring killers to justice," this is not a serious inquiry. Ask Bill
Clinton and Sandy Berger what's wrong with it--they passed on Osama because they didn't think they had enough evidence to hold him.

Texas Toast appears to have been reading the Al Qaeda talking points, along with those of the DNC. As for the Senate being in play, I guess the people who put their money where their mouth is at TradeSports haven't got the message--they're putting GOP control as about 81%. Let's face it, the Left sees this election slipping away before their very eyes.

[mark c.]

I wonder how long it will take all the GOP geniuses that listened to the MSM and "distanced" themselves from Bush to return to the fold. My guess is about 2-3 more percentage points. Pathetic.

[Neo]

this election slipping away before their very eyes.

It's not that easy. The Left sees this election being stolen even before the first ballots are cast.

Now I have to use an electronic voting booth, instead of the punch cards that worked just fine. Out the pan and into the fire.

Thanks Al, you %^$%$ idiot.

[Wilson's a Liar]

I have also heard both Peter Hart and Charlie Cook recently state that they do not anticipate a Democrat takeover of the Senate.

I'm willing to bet anyone right now that even Rick Santorum is going to be reelected.

[Jane]

Let's face it, the Left sees this election slipping away before their very eyes.

It certainly looks like that today. And if the momentum stays the way it is going I fully expect the left to say we arranged 911 so it would have its anniversary 2 months before every election.

[Gary Maxwell]

Well Neo Bush is from Texas and Texas has oil and you make gasoline from oil and mumble mumble Halliburton and there you go the oil price drop conspiracy. From folks who never understood markets or private enterprise to any significant degree, why not a conspriracy? And it fits so well with the whole voting machine cospiracy nonsense too.

[Gary Maxwell]

we arranged 911 so it would have its anniversary 2 months before every election.

Jane! They dont need encouragement to come up with these things. Please desist with your aid to the lunatics ( funny as it is ).

[Patton]

The problem Dems haven't figured out is
that the poll numbers were all based on negative Bush reporting/gas prices, etc. and were NEVER based on anyone actually supportting the Dems agenda - because they don't have one.

So they have given all the power to Bush
in making this a vote for or against Bush and not either FOR Bush or FOR their agenda.

[mark c.]

I noticed another leftist loser in Mexico followed the Democrat recipe for success:

1.Lose election
2.Delay official results
3.Allege fraud and "disenfranchisement"
4.Ceaselessly attempt to subvert legitimate winner using friendly press.
5.rinse and repeat
6.Lose again

[TexasToast]

MORE: At TradeSports, the probablity of Republicans retaining control of the House has moved up to 52%; at the Iowa Electronic Market the Reps are also at 52%. The Reps bottomed out at 40% in early September at TradeSports..

I’m hopeful, but I wouldn’t bet on turning either the house or the senate. It’s a high hill">http://www.slate.com/id/2149839/">hill to climb.

My understanding is that Bush wants to exempt the CIA interogators in their secret prisons from the standard rules now incorporated in the Army Field Manual, so the exceptions would only apply to special high value prisoners. So we won't be beating the tar out of everyone gratuitously; only the few, the proud, the uncommunicative.

So – which is it? - show trials before the election or “get our of jail free” cards for interrogators? Both? Flashy “indictments” of the “worst of the worst” in October?

Since it is pretty well established that tortured confessions are not reliable, is it all just a political calculation? How sad.

Gary

Aw come on. Texas has been solidly republican since the seventies. Ann Richards was a fluke because Clayton Williams told the ladies to “lie back and enjoy it.” Rylander has a lots of cash and Kinky has the Ventura precedent. I really don’t know what to expect

[JM Hanes]

Daniel:

"This recent polling data tells me that voters have a clear perspective on the war in Iraq...perhaps more cogent than either Party."

Will you still be saying that when the numbers shift? It seems such a short time ago that the ignorant masses were reelecting Republicans!

Campaigning is a seasonal thing chez Bush. Unlike the Democratic leadership, who have already done their worst to cripple him, he knows how to pace himself. It may drive his own party crazy, but he doesn't come out swinging till he has to. Oddly enough, he seems to peak right around election day. While he may not lift all boats as high as he once did this time around, he doesn't really have to raise them all, or raise them much, for Republicans to retain their majority.

This election, like the previous two, has been the Democrats' to lose. Unfortunately, it looks like they're still having trouble reading the people -- just as you believe that the polls represent a real shift to your own way of thinking -- and they have yet to discern even the bascis of what are remarkably consistent Bush dynamics. If they lose again, will they finally begin to ask themselves what they've been doing wrong, instead of claiming they've been victimized?

[boris]

Since it is pretty well established that tortured confessions are not reliable

Straw dummy alert. Nobody is advocating torture. Nobody is after confessions. If the intent is to raise the "they'll say anything to avoid the discomfort" canard, there's a simple response:

Wouldn't that include answering the question "where is the ticking bomb?"?

[freaknik]

Actually Hanes-why should Democrats believe they are doing anything "wrong"-even if/when they lose again?

If a majority of Americans are happy with the current Republican leadership of the country, so be it. They're fools, idiots, and cowards, but they are a majority.

Argumentum ad populum is only for the truly weak minded.

[Florence Schmieg]

The techniques in question are only for the CIA not the military. They don't fit my idea of torture, as described in Newsweek: sleep deprivation, hypothermia, loud music, slaps on the abdomen, pulling on the shirtfront. To me torture is chopping off limbs, poking out eyes, burning skin, etc. You know, like the TERRORISTS DO!

[maryrose]

I concur that Santorum will confound all by pulling this one out in Pennsylvania. The Green Party candidate will syphon votes away from Casey and then the result will be a repub victory. Also in Ohio DeWine will be re-elected because he is a moderate and Brown is just too darn liberal for southern Ohio.

[freaknik]

See there Hanes. This Schmieg cretin, supra, is a great example. The fool doesn't know what torture is. I'm sure most Americans don't know that sleep deprivation was a Gulag favorite.

Should I revise my idea to conform to mass moronitude?

[boris]

sleep deprivation was a Gulag favorite

And Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore eat beef or you're a nazi.

[cathyf]

They don't fit my idea of torture, as described in Newsweek: sleep deprivation, hypothermia, loud music, slaps on the abdomen, pulling on the shirtfront.

I wish I could remember who, but somebody's comment on this was, "Gee, sounds like college!"

Hey, there's an idea -- if we give the prisoners college credit, and the interrogation is done by fraternities as part of Rush Week, is it ok then? Hmmm... I suppose there is the question of whether we charge them tuition... But hey! There's a good use for student loan programs, right? Or maybe those spammers who fill my mailbox with offers for mail-order PhDs could be put to useful work?

[freaknik]

You experienced hypothermia in college, CathyF?

I believe it. Most conservative females strike me as frigid old biddies.

[mark c.]

i say we torture prisoners by letting freaknik pontificate on them until they beg to tell all. then we let them kill him.

[JM Hanes]

Neo:

"Thanks Al, you %^$%$ idiot"

By December '02, our devil-in-the-Diebold crowd had already forgotten that Democrats were responsible for the massive shift to computerized voting. To disagree with them before that election was to endorse disenfranchisment, of course. We should all be worried about the absence of a paper trail, but I suspect you'd hear nary a peep from the left if we were using Democrat manufactured machines.

[mark c.]

"Most conservative females strike me as frigid old biddies."

I'll bet alot of conservative females would dearly love to strike the old freakster.

[Neo]

I took a hard look to find out just who was making money when there were rising gasoline prices.

The first obvious answer is evil oil companies, bit it doesn't stop there.
Next are the evil state governments, especial those that have a percentage of the gas price as tax. Note that the screams from state budget officials were muted this year.
But worse of all, I found out that much of the speculation in the oil spot markets where the prices vary the most was due to evil pension funds; you know the ones for the teachers, auto workers, and state and federal employee unions. It might even have been your pension fund.

[boris]

hypothermia

Cold room discomfort is not hypothermia.

The movie “Winter People” has a scene with Kurt Russel in a serious fight with a tougher man. Kurt wrestles the pair into an icy river. Kurt had done some polar bear swimming and was used to the cold which stunned the other man enough so Kurt could win the fight.

Doubt the technique would work very well on an avid outdoor swimmer from a far northern state. When the kids in my family started turning blue mom made us come out of the water and stand in the open air with a towel still wet from the last time she made us get out. Open air doesn’t mean a toasty hotel swimming natorium, it means a breezy lakeshore. After 15 min or so curled up and shivering we’d be dry and revert to hellions on dry land again at which time we were allowed to go back in the water. Which we gleefully would, even knowing the next time we had to get out it would be dusk and the breeze would be stiffer and the lakeshore colder.

[clarice]

mark c. Are you new here? Your remarks are uncalled for and I'd appreciate you stop.

[JM Hanes]

freaknik:

"Should I revise my idea to conform to mass moronitude?"

Heavens no! When you've got your own brand, why switch?

[Coef]

The CIA already tried to have agreements for the military applied to them, it did'nt work because they are an agency.

[JM Hanes]

boris:

Lord that brings back memories!

[freaknik]

I'm sure that's me your tsking-tsking, not Mark C., clarice-but stuff it. Thanks.

So the Senate 3 have now rejected the latest "compromise" offer. Apparently, they're goin to present a counteroffer to Bush.

If Bush backs further down just to get something signed before the election-is that a sign of strength or weakness?

[Gary Maxwell]

Freaknik = Katrina = JD

[cathyf]

Gee, isn't it nice to know that all the sucky landlords out there who won't turn the heat up are actually torturers? Aren't you just outraged?

[freaknik]

"Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released, the Canadian inquiry commission found."

We fly people to Syria!

[freaknik]

What's the quid pro quo for Syria to torture people for us?

[Gary Maxwell]

Rylander has a lots of cash and Kinky has the Ventura precedent. I really don’t know what to expect

Well in a 4 man race the Deomcrat cant finish any higher than 5th! Behind a C & W singer who performs as Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys and one tough grandma and perhaps the biggest empty suit in the history of Texas goverors. And of course undecided. Set the bar real low like you just did and then declare victory among the smoking ruins.

[Terrye]

freaknick:

I am an older conservative female and I am only frigid when my partner is a soft whiney little metrosexual liberal "male". I use scare quotes because I am not sure if "male" is really the correct term.

[freaknik]

Then you're not all that conservative, hotcakes.

[TexasToast]

OT

Gary

This poll">http://www.pollster.com/polls/?state=TX&race=governor_race">poll has Chris Bell doing as well as can be expected. I don’t expect Kinky Friedman is taking much from Goodhair Perry or Grandma Strayhorn. Kinky is probably taking much more from Bell or drawing in new voters. I mean when your slogan is “why the hell not?” ;0

[Rick Ballard]

Gary,

I don't think its JD. This is a slightly different brand of teh stoupid. Same genus, different shade of bark on the family pole. That doesn't really raise it to a different species, though. Mmm. Simple mitosis may be the answer although I shudder to think of further division and replication.

[ajacksonian]

From the Arar Commission Commissioner's Report on page 13 (15 of 376) Section 4.1 Information Sharing Prior to Mr. Arar's Detention:

The RCMP provided American authorities with information, including the entire database from the aforementioned terrorism investigation, in ways that did not comply with RCMP policies requiring screening for relevance, reliability and personal information. Some of the information related to Mr. Arar.

The RCMP provided American authorities with information about Mr. Arar that was inaccurate, portrayed him in an unfairly negative fashion and overstated his importance in the RCMP investigation.

The RCMP provided American authorities with information about Mr. Arar without attaching written caveats, as required by RCMP policy, thereby increasing the risk that the information would be used for purposes of which the RCMP would not approve, such as sending Mr. Arar to Syria.

The RCMP requested that American authorities place lookouts for Mr. Arar and his wife, Monia Mazigh, in U.S. Customs’ Treasury Enforcement Communications System (TECS). In the request, to which no caveats were attached, the RCMP described Mr. Arar and Dr, Mazigh as “Islamic Extremist individuals suspected of being linked to the Al Qaeda terrorist movement.” The RCMP had no basis for this description, which had the potential to create serious consequences for Mr. Arar in light of American attitudes and practices at the time.

Project A-O Canada was the front-line investigative unit in the RCMP that conducted the investigation in which Mr. Arar was a person of interest, and it was that unit that provided information about Mr. Arar to American agencies. The RCMP, as an institution, gave Project A-O Canada unclear and, in some instances, misleading direction concerning the manner in which information should be shared, and failed to properly oversee the Project’s investigation, including its information-sharing practices.

CSIS did not share any information about Mr. Arar with the American authorities prior to his detention in New York and removal to Syria.

There is no evidence that Canadian officials participated or acquiesced in the American authorities’ decisions to detain Mr. Arar and remove him to Syria.

And then followed in Section 4.2 Detention in NY and Removal to Syria:

There is no evidence that Canadian officials participated or acquiesced in the American authorities’ decisions to detain Mr. Arar and remove him to Syria.

It is very likely that, in making the decisions to detain and remove Mr. Arar, American authorities relied on information about Mr. Arar provided by the RCMP.

While Mr. Arar was being detained in New York on September 26, 2002, the RCMP provided the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) with information about him, some of which portrayed him in an inaccurate and unfair way.

Without the evidence of the American authorities, I am unable to conclude what role, if any, the TECS lookout requested by the RCMP played in the American decisions to detain Mr. Arar and remove him to Syria.

During Mr. Arar’s detention in New York, consular officials with the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) took reasonable steps to provide Mr. Arar with consular services, including addressing the possibility that he might be sent to Syria.

It sounds like Mr. Arar may have an issue... with the RCMP. The US got bad information, we acted upon it. Perhaps the Canadians might be asked why they got it wrong in the first place?

As to the election, the Congress will have to answer to its voters and *all politics is local*. National polls mean little, but the Congressional District and State Senate polls are quite interesting. How quickly and with what regularity Democrats will keep firing squarely at their feet will determine many races, and the harsher the rhetoric that does not look to do the Nation much good, the worse it will be for those espousing it. There are probably some few that are wishing that they had kept the 'old peace' and presented a united foreign policy to the world so that only National politics would need to be played out. All of Congress, by venturing into Foreign Policy, now finds that their rhetoric must be put to the test and just blaming the President has repercussions when they espouse a Foreign Policy direction that the public does not like. There are long-term consequences to defeat, and some few still remember *that*.

[freaknik]

Not answering my question, Jackson:

What's the quid pro quo for Syria to torture people for us?

[ajacksonian]

Mr. Arar had born in Syria.

The US did not get good information from the RCMP which may have contaminated the FBI COINTEL databases. This gave indication he *might* be a terrorist, but not determinant. The Canadians did not provide good information on Mr. Arar's status, nor did they help in determining what to do with him.

With that information and lack of same, and no way to know what to do with him, he was sent *home*.

Later in the report we get Canadians *still* doing nothing via their Consular facilities in Syria which *knew* Mr. Arar had been sent there.

You might ask 'why Canada let an innocent citizen be treated this way?' It was not a sending of Mr. Arar with CIA officials. No where is it mentioned in the Canadian report that the US had anything to do with Mr. Arar after sending him to Syria.

Syria does not like unknown terrorists walking around its Nation. Mr. Arar had come to them from the US via deportation as an unwanted individual due to suspicious background information. You may want to ask Syria why they tortured him.

[Marcel]

If Canada asked us to "look out" for Arar, is that code for "If you find him, send him to Syria to be tortured"?

Maybe the quid pro quo was letting Syria have their way in Lebanon until they got carried away and killed the Lebanese leader.

[ajacksonian]

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." - Napoleon Bonaparte

There is a lot of incompetence in the world. One need not ascribe nasty motives to it and make it out to be more than it is.

[freaknik]

Ok, Jackson, I'll assume you're just incompetent for now.

[boris]

I'll assume you're just incompetent for now.

No assumption is necessary regarding freaknik.

[Cecil Turner]

If Canada asked us to "look out" for Arar, is that code for "If you find him, send him to Syria to be tortured"?

If Canada tells us someone is a terrorist, the standard action is to deport him to where he came from. (And, considering Arar's dual citizenzhip, the logical answer is "Syria.") Not sure I'm down with changing that, even if we occasionally have to listen to 'em whine about it later.

[Marcel]

Arar was held in Syria for nearly a year (Sept 02 - Sept 03). Obviously any information extracted from him would be shared with our intelligence agencies. During this period we liberated Iraq and at that time accused Syria of being the hiding place for Saddam's weapons and letting terrorists and weapons enter Iraq from Syria. So it does seem odd that Arar was sent to Syria rather than questioned in New York were he was changing planes, or sent back to Canada where he lived.

[clarice]

Well, no one else was likely to take him.And neither Canada nor the US wanted him.

If he has a beef it seems to me it is with Syria which tortured him or Canada which deported him.

What am I missing here?

[boris]

Obviously any information extracted from him would be shared with our intelligence agencies

The use of the word "obviously" in your statment was amusing I must admit. Have you considered a career in comedy writing?

[Marcel]

There is nothing to indicate that Canada refused to let Arar back into the country where he lived and worked. During the 2 weeks that he was held in New York, Arar was not allowed to talk to the Canadian government. The RCMP had no idea he would be sent to Syria. But he didn't have a chance to make a case for himself before being sent off to be tortured. Thia is the type of situation that makes one wonder if the rule of law still applies in this country. The Supreme Court has expressed similar concerns.

[Jane]

If he has a beef it seems to me it is with Syria which tortured him or Canada which deported him.

What am I missing here?

Oh Clarice, let me clarify for you. You are missing the fact that it is all Bush's fault.

tsk tsk

[owl]

"If he has a beef it seems to me it is with Syria which tortured him or Canada which deported him.

What am I missing here?"

Mega MSM spin smeared all over.

[Other Tom]

"'Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released, the Canadian inquiry commission found.'"

"We fly people to Syria!"

It all sounds quite good to me.

"What's the quid pro quo for Syria to torture people for us?"

I have no idea. And I don't particularly care, and don't particularly want to know. I'm happy to leave that stuff up to the professionals who have been handling it since time out of mind. And I'm pleased that it's all being run by Karl Rove, who placed his call to the Saudi royal family and the oil company execs at exactly the perfect moment. Not bad for a guy who's been under indictment since May 13, right?

God, it must be painful to be on the left these days. You can just taste their agony.

[Kevin B]

Clarice, you are a Star

Seriously, the work you've done in exposing this travesty of justice has been exemplary. Thank you.

[Pofarmer]

Can I ask an off topic question?

Local radio show just had on a local law professor talking about the NSA eavsdropping program and the 4th ammendment. He pretty well trashed the program, and I thought totally missrepresented what the program actually does.

It seems we are getting more and more populated by moonbats out here in the hinterland, or maybe they are just becoming more vocal.

But I digress, the question-

Are there any conservative law professors?

[Other Tom]

Pofarmer: The answer is pretty much "no." The real lawyers are pracitioners; the alienated ones teach. It's pretty much the same as in all other walks of life. Not to worry; no one pays them much attention, and for the most part they talk to one another.

[Other Tom]

Hey Clarice--Michael Barone links to your WS article in his new US News piece. He calls it a "piece of dynamite." It's here: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneblog/archives/060919/the_latest.htm#more

[noah]

No premature gloating...vote Republican only because Attila the Hun is not on the ticket!

[Terrye]

Hotcakes???Ohhhhh I like that, I would like it even better if freaknick were a real man.

BTW, I keep hearing that the people of the region should be left to their own devices and we should stop trying to force our values on them...so since beating the crap out of people is common place in countries like Syria maybe the UN Human Rights Commission should take a break from trashing the Jews long enough to right a nasty report about Syria. I am sure they would desist the minute they heard that the UN was upset with them. Why should it be our job?

[lurker]

Be sure to watch the video at the bottom and it is subtitled.

Watch the 9 trucks coming in with a coffin....

Scary.

[Other Tom]

Barone also refers to an article by a self-described liberal named Sam Harris in the otherwise unreadable, once-proud Los Angeles Times. He quotes as follows:

"We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies."

Scarier than Dick Cheney, maybe. But Karl Rove? That'll be a tough sell to these childlike creatures.

[lurker]

Is Bush acquiescing to Iran?

Who knows.

[TexasToast]

But I digress, the question-

Are there any conservative law professors?

Off the top of my head - Glenn Reynolds and John Yoo.

[Rick Ballard]

TT,

Reynolds would argue with you. I would too concerning applying "conservative" to just about anything he writes - libertarian, sure but he's no conservative. Volokh makes the cut from time to time.

[maryrose]

Turley isn't but I like him anyway. I don't always agree with him but I like how he presents himself. He actually seems intelligent.I also like Ted Olson ever since the 2000 election.

[Other Tom]

Is Bork still teaching? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who the profs are, as long as we can keep stacking the judiciary with sensible men and women who infuriate the stupes. Duncan Kennedy can continue to teach, and to publish gilt-edged books with a total printing of 750 copies, while Samuel Alito, John Roberts ("Mister Chief Justice" to you), Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and their successors-in-waiting eradicate the imbecilities of the brain-dead dunces who have infected the judiciary for the past forty years. Soon enough the mouth-breathing John Paul Stevens will be replaced by someone selected by Bush or Giuliani, and then we can really send the storm-troopers out in the dead of night to round up some of these public nuisances. The night of the long knives is coming! Be careful what you say, moonbats! The midnight knock and the knout await you!

[clarice]

Heh! What a lovely picture you're painting OT!!

Sounds like an oppo campaign leaflet.

Some time ago I wrote up the Kel decision and the much maligned Thomas was so good on that, and Judge Brown's take on it was fantastic.

Hearing from inside the militay what's happening in the mush headed JAG Corps I see creeping legalistic pin head thinking making life far more dangerous for the military and for the rest of us.

Do you suppose the next war strategy should include closing down Harvard and Yale law schools?

Or, would it be sufficient to require all JAG officers to be embedded with the troops in Haditha for at least a few months?

[TejanoCharboy]

Tom (the big kahouna)

I seem to remember that Tejano Charboy was Kim's freshly coined bon mot. Knowing your desire for precision, I thought I'd pass that along.

OtherTom (I would say OT, but that might be confusing)

FDR tried court packing with rather mixed results. I would suggest that most judges, of whatever political stripe, have a bit more integety than you seem to give them credit for.

You seem to be a walking godwin violation.

Rick

Opposition to the pro-life position does not a libertarian make. Reynolds is still looking for "happy talk" in Iraq. When Drezner asks if "Opration Iraqi Freedom" was bad execution or simply impossible, one might surmise that conservative thinking has admitted that the jig is up.

BTW, what is this I hear about removing the chief judge as being too pro-Saddam? "Democracy" on the march!

[richard mcenroe]

Well, the Studio City MoveOnBots are certainly getting more and more frantic and abusive. One of them was in such a rush to get his protest sign out into the intersection last Friday he ran right over a pedestrian in a wheelchair. Pretty sure that's one for the GOP...

[Rick Ballard]

TC,

Make the grubby little Dem pup tent as small as you wish. You'll be holding your conventions in phone booths soon enough.

I wonder who will be the first to use 'How the Wave Became a Ripple' as a headline on November 8th.

[clarice]

HEH,RM!

[danking70]

How many points did the President of Iran's speech add to Bush's approval rate and GOP chances in November?

[danking70]

Rick, I imagine the headline more

"Diebold: How the Wave Became a Ripple."

They are already setting this excuse up.

[TexasToast]

Rick

I have little influence on the "tent" - but ignoring the abortion issue (I apologize to you for highlighting it), I still don't see Reynolds as very libertarian. He certainly isn't a social conservative. Perhaps Jacksonian is a better term?

Since I have no responsibility to any party or position, I have the freedom to say what I actually think. If the Democrats happen not to regain the Congress on Nov 7, I guess we will all observe how much further into debt the Republicans can put us (an issue, BTW, that Reynolds is quite good on).

[Pofarmer]

"Do you suppose the next war strategy should include closing down Harvard and Yale law schools?"

I'm thinkin we need a moratorium on Law school admissions and graduations untill we get the herd thinned down a little.

The prof really got me. He was supposed to be a constitutional law expert and good on the 4th ammendment. When asked about the program, he responded that "The Bush administration just thinks it can do whatever it wants so long as it's under the auspices of the so called war on terror". At this point I was fuming. He never, nor did the host, point out that one end of the call was to a foreign phone. Nor did anyone point out that for any action to take place the FBI had to be notified then everything went through normal legal channels. I hope there were some informed people listening, cause this guy was full of BS. I was fuming by the end of the interview and I couldn't get a call in!!!

Last night he had the Dem challenger for out U.S. House seat on and he was similarly full of baloney, right down to "once organizing his dorm young Republicans." Then he sites the whole left litany about the war in Iraq. Sadam and AQ never made contact. Sadam hated Islamic terrorists. Sadam was never any threat to the U.S. or the region.

The icing on the cake though, was when he was asked about withdrawl from Iraq. He said absolutely withdraw. The host then asked what about things getting worse? His response was "I don't really see how things could get much worse."

What??!!!! Really???!!!

What an idiot.

Thanks guys.

[Gary Maxwell]

You'll be holding your conventions in phone booths soon enough.

Just think about having to crowd in there with that fat bastard Micael Moore and Jimmy Carter right next to him! Bring some nose plugs.

[clarice]

One of my favorite law professors--a brilliant emigree with Lithuania--once empathized with my view that most of the faculty were repulsive.

He reminded me that the socratic method drew to its bosom particularly neurotic people--that no matter how hard the student studied, the professors ha gone over the same stuff for years and would keep leading the student on and on to the point where the professor would win. Just to give you an idea of the kind of folks most of them are.

[Gary Maxwell]

TT

Rick is right. Glenn Reynolds is no conservative. He does hold conservative views on the War on Terror, ie he thinks that we should take seriously guys who say they want to blow us up and kill us. Other than that, he is socially quite liberal. Maybe not Howie Dean liberal but he is in Tennessee remember.

[Patrick Wells]

Glenn Renyolds

IN THE MAIL: Andrew Sullivan's new book, The Conservative Soul: How We Lost It, How to Get It Back. Having never made any pretense at being a conservative, my interest in this topic is pretty much academic, but I'm pretty sure that this passage in the publisher's blurb is wrong: "They have substituted religion for politics, and damaged both."

In fact, there has been plenty of politics, and not all that much religion, out of the Bush Administration and the Republican Party over the past six years. There are theocrats and theocrat-wannabes out there, but they're really not much in evidence in the Bush Administration's policies, and the rest of the blurb certainly seems to suggest that Sullivan thinks otherwise. Perhaps the blurb doesn't accurately reflect the argument in the book, which I haven't read yet, obviously.

[Syl]

maryrose

I also like Ted Olson ever since the 2000 election.

I voted for Gore and was, natch, pulling for him in the whole Florida thing. I had a bit of a crush on Boies, but I admit I was VERY impressed with Ted Olsen!

I wasn't so biased, though, that I didn't catch the trick the Fla supremes played re changing the rules in the middle of the game. I was just hoping they'd get away with it. How liberal of me. LOL

[Martin]

Wow.You people are really some sad miserable creatures.

Arar's no terrorist- he was completely innocent. He was tortured for absolutely nothing.

And Canada didn't reject his entry, you flat out liar-we shipped him to Syria before Canada even knew about.

You folks are truly sickening. You really are concentration camp guards in training.

[boris]

Arar's no terrorist

Who said he was? Besides Canada that is.

You folks are truly sickening

Don't you mean Canada since that who you seem to be talking about?

[Syl]

Martin

blah blah blah

Why didn't Canada's embassy in Syria ask to have Arar sent back to Canada? They sat on their hands and did nothing. It was Canada that gave us the false information about Arar being a terrorist.

We thought he was a terrorist, we sent him back to his home country because his other home country had told us he was a terrorist.

I feel bad that someone innocent was tortured but it's sick of you to take political advantage of a royal Canadian screwup to blame Bush and the Republicans for pointing out the facts instead of weeping and wringing their hands in shame.

Pfeh.