David Corn Has A List Of Names...

David Corn disgraces the left by channeling Joe McCarthy as he explains that the left will only stand up for the privacy rights of their allies:

There's a list going around. Those disseminating it call it "The List." It's a roster of top-level Republican congressional aides who are gay.

...I have a copy. I'm not going to publish it. For one, I don't know for a fact that the men on the list are gay. And generally I don't fancy outing people--though I have not objected when others have outed gay Republicans, who, after all, work for a party that tries to limit the rights of gays and lesbians and that welcomes the support of those who demonize same-sexers.

Mr. Corn's position on outing Republicans is clear enough but he does not explicitly state a position on the merits of outing gay Democrats.  However - if he had any journalistic integrity at all he would have to be opposed to "stealth advocacy".  A black man arguing for "black" issues does not need to separately declare his personal stake in the discussion, nor does a woman discussing "women's issues".

But surely Mr. Corn agrees that it is unseemly to advocate for gay issues under the pretense of having been swayed by force of argument when, in fact, the advocate is touting his own self-interest.  So presumably Mr. Corn, troubled as he is by closeted Republican gays, is equally troubled by closeted Democratic gays.

Or maybe not.  Let's go back to Mr. Corn:

Let's be clear about one thing: the Mark Foley scandal is not about homosexuality. Some family value conservatives are suggesting it is. But anytime a gay Republican is outed by events, a dicey issue is raised: what about those GOPers who are gay and who serve a party that is anti-gay?  Are they hypocrites, opportunists, or just confused individuals? Is it possible to support a party because you adhere to most of its tenets--even if that party refuses to recognize you as a full citizen?

Let's be clear as mud - the Foley scandal is not about homosexuality but it would not be unreasonable to out gay Republicans in response to it.  Can anyone follow that?  I would suggest the outing of those who are abusing their power but that logic may be too linear for someone from the reality based community.

I also love this evasion of responsibility - "anytime a gay Republican is outed by events".  No, David, it won't be "events" that post that list, it will be activist Democrats trying to win an election.  Hope that helps your understanding.  A likely candidate would be Mike Rogers of BlogActive.com, who has spent years outing gay Republicans and whose current fund raising appeal says this:

Please help me with this effort. We have five weeks to save our nation from these right wing homophobes in the closet -- and there are more in Congress!

As to "What about those GOPers who are gay and who serve a party that is anti-gay?", well, what about those GOPers who favor lower taxes (and happen to be gay), or who favored a robust national defense in the Reagan era (and happened to be gay), or who favor gun owner's rights (and happen to be gay), or for some other reason don't fit themselves neatly into the special interest group boxes drawn up by earnest Democratic strategists?

Or what about GOPers who were put off by Bill Clinton's "Don't ask, don't tell" debacle or by Clinton's signing of the "Defense of Marriage Act", or by John Kerry's insistence that his position on gay marriage did not differ from Bush's?  Are they allowed to think that maybe the Dems are more talk than action, and that other issues are more important?  Does David Corn really agree with 100% of the Democratic Party platform?

This is the current state of the left - sexual privacy rights for their political opponents are trumped by a desire for power.

Mark Kleiman and Ted Barlow were quite clear on this issue two years ago.  An excerpt:

The right answer to that question [of sexuality], from anyone except a potential sexual partner, is “None of your f—-ing business.”

I really, really disapprove of gay-baiting, even if the gays being baited hold disgusting political positions. And I thought that attitude was part of the definition of liberalism.

We will see whether any Dems speak out against this now, although with an election to be won I am not optimistic.

MORE:  Ahh, Plan B - Josh Marshall is pretending that it is Republicans who are going to out these gay Republican staffers, and Kevin Drum is playing along.

That is quite a working theory - a group of evangelical Reps, outraged by the gays in their midst, worked up a list of gay Republican staffers ands then leaked it to their natural ally, David Corn.  Mr. Corn then choked back his abhorrence at this sexual McCarthyism and penned a few paragraphs rationalizing their effort.  Uh huh.  Can I guess the rest - some lefty blogger will print it "just to show us what awful tricks those crazy House Republicans are up to".  Please.

Personally, I figure that since there are Dem activists who do this routinely, my money is there.

But we have nothing to fight about since we all agree this is awful.  And since Josh Marshall and Kevin Drum think "The List" will be coming from Republicans, I encourage them to denounce the concept unequivocally and pre-emptively, as I am doing here.

If The List appears, they will be on record as having condemned it, and perhaps other Dems will join them.  And if it is the work of crazed evangelical Republicans, condemning it should be easy, yes?

I just know Dems will hurry to denounce this "List" and stand up for privacy rights for all gays, even Republican ones.

STRANGEST THING I EVER READ:  From Mark Schmitt at TPM Cafe:

But when it comes to Foley, this is a case where it is us liberals who have the absolute moral value: Don’t mess with kids sexually. Adults must not mess with kids, people in positions of authority should not mess with kids. It’s not about the legal line or the age of consent in Florida or DC. It’s morality: Fifty-two year olds must not mess with 16 year olds. Remember that rule and all this complexity falls away. Don’t tolerate people who mess with kids, gay or straight. Not complicated. As Robert George would say, it’s "foundational." If you know that basic rule, and don’t hesitate to take action if people break it, or raise alarms if you suspect them of breaking it (as in, asking for a picture) then guess what?: Life gets a little simpler. Gays can be Scoutmasters because, like any other Scoutmaster, they know that you don’t mess with the kids. Straight men can be high school teachers of girls because they maintain that boundary, they treat it as a moral absolute. And so on.

On what planet?  Under my sun, Democrat Gerry Studds was censured by the House in 1983 for having sex with a seventeen year old page; the voters of Massachusetts sent him back to Congress for years thereafter.

And more recently, Bill Clinton commuted the sentence of Mel Reynolds, who was "serving a seven-year sentence for corruption and having sex with a 16-year-old campaign worker."

[That Clinton-Reynolds pardon from USA Today is misleading, apparently - try this:

Reynolds resigned from Congress in 1995 after a state court convicted him of sexual misconduct with a 16-year-old campaign volunteer. He served 2 1/2 years in prison for the crime. Two years later Reynolds was sentenced to a 6 1/2-year prison term on federal corruption charges, including wire fraud and bank fraud.

In November 1999 the former Rhodes scholar wrote a letter to Clinton and asked to be released from prison to a halfway house so that he could earn money for his family.

So Clinton pardoned a sex offender, but not for the sex offense.  Got it.

Snopes has a bit as well.]

Moral absolute.  Absolutely.

UPDATE:  I am guided to evidence of Dems with both a brain and a conscience:

"We're getting into very dangerous territory, and I've warned my colleagues to be careful." That's what a Democrat leadership aide was saying on Wednesday, as word circulated about David Corn's blog posting that revealed that a list of gay Republicans congressional staffers was circulating through emails.

Such a list has been talked about for months, if not years, by more militant homosexual activists, who have threatened to out Republican congressional staffers or even congressmen if they take positions counter to their gay lifestyle.

..."If that list is made public, all of the political gains we've made in the past 96 hours get flushed down the toilet," says the leadership aide.

I apologize - this may not be evidence of a conscience at all. just a recognition that as a pragmatic matter this is dumb idea for Dems.  But one can hope.

And one can wonder - why, if the list is coming from the homophobic right, would it reflect badly on Democrats?

Comments

[anonymous]

And, Pete? Why would the U.S. surrender to Iran? The U.S. and Iran are not at war.

[topsecretk9]

JMH

wouldn't his junior year in highschool put him in the 2003 group of pages

His buddy - My space page - page

http://www.myspace.com/wcgorbitz

U.S. House of Representatives, Washington D.C., US
Page House Democrats 2003

And you can see Chris's (photo) page and well, you can read the bio

[Sara (Squiggler)]

Geez Anonymous, you are so annoying, don't you ever sleep?

[topsecretk9]

--The Drudge Report said one Oklahoma source, "who knows the former page very well," claims Mr. Edmund goaded an unwitting Mr. Foley to type embarrassing comments, which were shared with a small group of young Hill politicos. The Drudge Report said the prank went awry when the saved instant messages got into the hands of political operatives favorable to Democrats. --

via washington times...when you look at those mysapce pages, they are obviously favorable

[Sara (Squiggler)]

He went from being a House page to a Mexican model? Too funny.

[topsecretk9]

Sara...click Chris's picture on the models page and it takes you to his page...that is the lady who said she was writing a book on pages son

start here
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/10/david_corn_has_.html#comment-23477749

[Sara (Squiggler)]

Heroes OPRAH!!, Meredith Vierra, Paris Hilton, John Kerry, Martha Stewart, Carson from Queer Eye, Thom from Queer Eye, Nate Berkus (if you know who he is, i wanna talk to you!!!) A tribute to Zidane:

and he wants to meet Anderson Cooper.

[Sara (Squiggler)]

Another snotty elitist in the making.

[Patton]

CREW ALSO IS COVERING UP:
From Wapo:

"the FBI believed that CREW may have received the e-mails as early as April and that the group refused to tell the FBI how they were obtained."

So CREW was awae since April but only went public just before the election. And now CREW, just like Pelosi is trying to shutdown and investigation. Now why would a so-called 'watchdog' group be refusing to answer the FBIs questions?

[Patton]

Anon spouts: ""And, Pete? Why would the U.S. surrender to Iran? The U.S. and Iran are not at war.""

See, liberals have no clue. Just because we haven't declared war, doesn't mean thy haven't declaed war on us. Think Osama Bin laden declaration of War in 1996 and Bill Clintons' refusing to take it seriously.

The Iranians certainly claim they are at war with us, whether you like it or not.

[Patton]

Anonymous doesn't seem to like all the digging being done here.

Anonymous, are you aware of all this digging that went on here during Plamegate and how the people here figured out alot of information about what really happened long before the media reported it.

The posters ehre showed conclusively that Wislon had lied, that Wilson had publicly come out long before Fitz claimed he did, that many others knew about Plame then Fitz revealed, that Fitz had NO case against Rove, etc. etc.

They blew many of Fitzs statements out of the water within minutes of him making them or his words becoming public.

What are you afraid of? A little sunshine?

DO YOU FEAR WE WILL FIND OUT WHY PEOLOSI IS TRYING TO SHUT DOWN THE INVESTIGATION AND WHY CREW NOW REFUSES TO COOPERATE WITH THE FBI??

[PeterUK]

"And, Pete? Why would the U.S. surrender to Iran? The U.S. and Iran are not at war."

You weren't last time, but Jimmah still surrendered,incidentally one does not have to be at war to surrender.I'm sure Ahmadinajed wil accept Pelosi's submission at the Well of the Twelfth Imam.

[PeterUK]

"it probably wouldn't be a good idea for you to sit next to Professor Chomsky; you wouldn't understand a word he said."

Nobody does,Chomsty's English is appalling.

[Specter]

clueless. An unofficial state of war has existed with Iran since they invaded our embassy - diplomatically US sovereign territory. That is considered an act of war MR. Clueless. No treaty ending those hostilities has ever been signed. Simply a long cease-fire. Of course we never fired thaks to Jimmah.....

[Specter]

Nobody does,Chomsty's English is appalling.

LOL. But - OT - Did you see this?

Malaysia to Levy Fines for Poor Speech

By Associated Press
October 5 2006, 8:21 AM EDT

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- Malaysia will levy fines on those incorrectly using the national language, and will set up a specialized division to weed out offenders who mix Malay with English, news reports said Thursday.

Culture, Arts and Heritage Minister Rais Yatim said fines of up to 1,000 ringgit ($271) can be imposed on displays with any wrong or mutated form of Malay, the Star newspaper reported.

The move was to ensure "the national language was not sidelined in any way," Rais said, according to The Star.

Fines will be imposed after a first warning, the national news agency Bernama quoted Rais as saying.

Most Malaysians speak Malay, also known as Bahasa Malaysia, while English is widely spoken but a mutated form, known as "Manglish" -- a mishmash of English, Malay and other local dialects is commonly used in the Southeast Asian nation.

The government will attempt to swap commonly used English language words with Malay substitutes, The Star said.

"It has to be admitted that a mixture of Bahasa Malaysia and English sometimes cannot be helped, but we hope these measures can arrest the decline," Rais said, according to The Star.

He said a national language unit will be set up in an attempt to reduce the English-Malay mix, especially at official functions.

An official at Rais' ministry, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed his comments as reported.

Critics have said Malaysia's decision to sideline English in favor of Malay is hurting its global competitiveness level and a downward spiral in English language standards among students.

Maybe we should do the same.

[Specter]

Had to plug for Squiggler. Check out her site and the editorial cartoon she has up.

[verner]

OK, I have a hard copy of the myspace, and I hope that alot of screenshots havew been taken.

Is "Chris" is one of the "teens" that have given IMs to ABC? Did "Chris" give Jordan's IMs to ABC and crew? Did Robin Katsaros give the IMs to ABC and Crew? Does Robin Katsaros have anything to do with SSP faux blog? After Robin Katsaros heard rumors of Foley's taste for young adults, did she encourage her openly gay son to egg the congressman on? Enquiring minds want to know! And I pray to the lord above that the FBI knocked on a few doors before the shreaders got started.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

topseckret/JM Hanes: Nice google sleuthing. The Robin Katsaros link is worth examining further.

[Neo]

This is the first page that seems to have any sense.

The third page interviewed by ABC News, a graduate of the 1998 page class, said Foley's instant messages began while he was a senior in high school.

"Foley would say he was sitting in his boxers and ask what I was wearing," the page said.

"It became more weird, and I stopped responding," the page said.

Why wasn't this the story with all the pages ?

[verner]

OK, lets just say that once upon a time there was an ambitious far left democrat operative who lived in Nancy Pelosi's district in Norther California. We'll call her Mme. X. And let's just say that Mme. X has an openly gay son. And like all good loony left democrat operatives, Mme. X hates republicans. So what to do?

Mme. X, like 90% of the free world has heard that there happens to be a Republican Congressman who is gay, and likes young adult males. Well, Mme. X is the mother of a young adult male, who, just by chance, happens to also be openly gay! So she rings up her Congressperson, Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi--and gets her beloved son a place in the Congressional Page Program, where he will act like honey to the bee! Indeed, she encourages the young man to make nice with the poor old dear. She also encourages her dear little boy to encourage his friends to contact him as well--making sure to carefully save each and every e-mail and IM. Of course, the congressman knows the law, and makes sure that none of these contacts are illegal...that may be a problem.

And to cast a wider net--why not interview a few more pages! Tempt them with Hollywood, get them to dish the dirt!

And when we've gathered all the goods--hand them over to the right (or should I say left) people! And hold on to all of it until just the right moment, when it can do the greatest damage.

Maybe I should send all of this to Brian Ross's tip page!

[Rick Ballard]

"I can't say I've seen any evidence that Soros money goes to CREW."

Gabriel, the quote says "Soros backed" which does not have to mean direct financial backing. Soroscum covers a big pond with a lot of fish in it. The 'Democracy Alliance' (an honest name would be Socialist Alliance) is the current Soros/Lewis umbrella group and CREW suits their purposes quite well. 'Soros' is becoming a placeholder term describing the leftist shadow network.

[hit and run]

You know how when bin Laden or Zawihiri puts out a tape, everyone wonders if there's some sort of code that will trigger cells to commence terrorist attacks?

Well, now in hindsight we see how the dems use the very same thing.

A NewD irection for America.

When released, some thought it just to be a slight, silly gaffe by slight, silly dems. Don't be so naive.

It was the launch code for Operation FFF.

[Neo]

"The Nation" piece about Democracy Alliance

A surprise guest at the meeting was Bill Clinton, whose agenda seemed to be protecting his wife. But things didn't work out quite as planned. When Guy Saperstein, a retired lawyer from Oakland, asked Clinton if Democrats who supported the war should apologize, the former President " went fucking ballistic," according to Saperstein. Forget Hillary, Clinton said angrily during a ten-minute rant; if I was in Congress I would've voted for the war. "It was an extraordinary display of anger and imperiousness," Saperstein says.

[T Miller]

After 1 week of news that is mostly damaging to Republican House candidates, is this going to be another weekend dominated by Foley stories? And when will the promised push-back begin? (something more effective than the Drudge story)

[verner]

If it comes out that Robin Katsaros had anything to do with those IMs, and if she has sat on them for years or months--this little scandal is soooo over for the republicans--but it will just be getting started for the demorats!

The Republican Base will be in a red hot fury.

[Neo]

verner, you maybe right but will that show up far enough before the election to make a difference ?

[Rick Ballard]

It's a waste to begin a push back a month out. The American electorate (in particular, the muddled middle) has the attention span of a gnat. This Democratic gay bashing scam is only their first salvo and is aimed at the absentee voters who are just now receiving their ballots.

[verner]

Neo: If some decent investigative reporter gets on it, I don't see why not. If the little people on the internet can find out this much, why can't they?

[T Miller]

The average voter won't be too impressed if we learn that some Democrat knew about Foley and sat on the information. Most voters already have it firmly in their minds that senior House Republicans knew about Foley years ago.

[Bob]

OT http://www.tfponline.com/QuickHeadlines.asp?sec=l&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fepaper%2Ewehco%2Ecom%2FWebChannel%2FShowStory%2Easp%3FPath%3DChatTFPress%2F2006%2F10%2F06%26ID%3DAr00903>Ford calling himself a lawyer!

Ford called self a lawyer but did not pass bar exam
By Michael Davis Staff Writer

This is starting to get rough!

[Pat]

Are private e-mails anything like testimony?

Pelosi on the Release of President Clinton's Videotaped Testimony to the Grand Jury
September 21, 1998

The release of the videotape of President Clinton's Grand Jury testimony is a blatant political move on the part of the Republican leadership in the House to further humiliate the President over an affair that he has already admitted. If there is a time to release this videotape, it is when the Judiciary Committee has completed its work and the tape could be viewed within the context of all of the documentation gathered by the Committee.

The release of these tapes, pushed through by the Republican majority on the Judiciary Committee, violates the basic principles of fairness and ignores existing precedent in which a request to release President Clinton's videotaped testimony in the Paula Jones case was denied by the Judge.

What President Clinton did was wrong. It is grounds for embarrassment, not for impeachment. The Judiciary Committee is charged with the responsibility of investigating the allegations against the President. The Republican leadership should move this process forward and not attempt to consume the nation's attention with salacious allegations about the President's private life.

[verner]

RB, a question for you: When did the TANG memos hit?

I happen to disagree. One Drudge headline, "What did Pelosi Know, and When did she know it" Could turn this thing around. When people hear about Katsaros and her kid, and what they were up to, the story will shift focus to the Bush hating Soros funded loony left. And remembr, at this point, we have proof that what Foley did was disgusting and immoral, but not that it was illegal. And as I've said before, I don't think we will. He seems to have known just where to draw the line.

[noah]

"a nasty piece of work" said Robert Novak of David Corn. Enough said. Ditto Josh Marshall, etc.

[T Miller]

Republican spokespersons need to be more effective when presenting their story. This morning on CNN a Florida representative again confused the emails and the IM's - no wonder the general publc thinks they are all the same.

[Rick Ballard]

Verner,

I see that I wasn't clear. Again. The DUI arguably did more damage than the TANG memos and the TANG memos would have been much more effective in achieving their intent had they been held until there was no time for rebuttal.

The timing of the release of the charges is probably more important than the charge itself wrt the muddled middle. The Democratic gay baiters are too early and polling suggests that the general public is rather unmoved by the story. The planned Phase II of the Democratic gay bashing program - the actual outing of closeted Republican aides is going to backfire because the Republican pols involved are going to say "what my employees do in their private lives is none of my business - and none of yours either, Ms Reporter." Democrat activists are fairly stupid and live in black/white worlds so they'll give it a try anyway.

I wouldn't mind seeing Pelosi get blistered but in a nation where 60% of the voting age population don't even know their own representatives name the impact is likely to be as marginal as this scandal du jour.

The perpetual losers of the Democratic party have thrown so much crap at the wall over the past six years that there is no way they get get any slime to stick for more than an instant.

[T Miller]

The problem with the "Democrats knew about it" theory is that we are also claiming that (1) Foley didn't break any laws and (2) the IM's were pranks. So if Dems did know, but no laws were broken, what were they supposed to do?

[MayBee]

You know what I love most about Robin Kostaros? The way she gets all snippy with the pages when they ask if the book is ever going to get published.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

Rick Ballard: If Soros gave to Democracy Alliance and DA gave to CREW, I would characterize that as "Soros finances CREW".

[Sue]

no wonder the general publc thinks they are all the same.

Part of the plan? Release the emails 1st so the public gets the idea that Foley is emailing a 16 year old then release the IMs? Seems their plan worked, if that is what they indeed did.

[Sue]

So if Dems did know, but no laws were broken, what were they supposed to do?

Shut them up. See Hugh Hewitt's blog to see how democrats are lying about what was known and covered up and who knew and covered it.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

You know, Christopher Katsaros, son of Robin Katsaros, host of house parties to raise money for John Conyers, would fit the description of "a source on capitol hill" that is not affiliated with a political party.

Katsaros attends Georgetown, enrolled in the School of Foreign Service.

[Contributor From Michigan]

Moveon.org has a base out of Royal Oak Michigan call "Metro Detroit Friends of Moveon.org". I stumbled upon their web page and viewed some of their "Projects". One that caught my eye was a posting dated July 24th. Found here:
http://www.moveonfriendsdetroit.org/b/b/portal.php?article=2

If you notice at the end of the article they have contact information for the event. One of these people have an email address with a Wide Open Web account. Wasn't this the domain where the IP address linked to?

[Gabriel Sutherland]

Contributor: That email address is for a Bruck Felk, owner of a company called 'Customer Grabbers'. On the site is a big photo of Bruce with Jennifer Granholm.

http://www.customergrabbers.com/

Bruce looks like a local Democrat organizer. I'm sure there are lots of them in that area with Wide Open West accounts. It's a local ISP.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

According to Democratic Underground, Bruce Fealk is an "Oakland Field Organizer" for Jim Marcinowski for Congress.

[b]

For Don:

A short history of Muslim on Muslim violence.

..Now you have the facts; ask the following decidedly non politically correct questions.

What would have happened to the Palestinians if they were under Iraqi occupation? Or Sudanese? Or even French or Soviet? The genocide that Israel is not committing hides the real genocide, the silenced genocide that Arabs and Muslims are committing mainly against themselves.

The answers are just as politically incorrect as the questions which is probably the reason for the deafening silence on this topic.

- Ethel C. Fenig 9 28 06

Washington, Sept 27: Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said here that the US military presence in Iraq keeps neighbours from invading his country... "I think that our neighbours must understand that our patience is limited," he said, refusing to single out countries but adding "we mean all of them."

Iraq shares borders with Syria, Iran, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

[verner]

No real surprise here:

KATSAROS, ROBIN
LOS ALTOS HILLS, CA 94022
NOT EMPLOYED/HOMEMAKER

KERRY, JOHN F
VIA JOHN KERRY FOR PRESIDENT, INC
06/29/2004 1000.00 24971361981

[sad]

From the AP:

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi is thinking 100 hours, time enough, she says, to begin to "drain the swamp" after more than a decade of Republican rule.

As in the first 100 hours the House meets after Democrats — in her fondest wish — win control in the Nov. 7 midterm elections and Pelosi takes the gavel as the first Madam Speaker in history.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061006/ap_on_el_ge/pelosi_time_1

I guess Pelosi thinks she is on her way in.

[Semanticleo]

""a nasty piece of work" said Robert Novak of David Corn"

Novak is your source on that, Noah?

ROFLMFAO!!!

[Syl]

T.Miller

The problem with the "Democrats knew about it" theory is that we are also claiming that (1) Foley didn't break any laws and (2) the IM's were pranks. So if Dems did know, but no laws were broken, what were they supposed to do?

First, I don't think the pranks story is going to fly.

Second, not-illegal doesn't mean that much to very very socially conservative folk anyway. To them, gasp, it should obvious and a thorough investigation should have happened. Period.

But if the Democrats knew and kept the info from the Reps and released it just before the election for effect, that would matter.

[verner]

In reference to the Page's chat at the alumni board, on of the kids is from Detroit:

http://www.pbase.com/adlaidemocrat/profile

[SunnyDay]

What liberals don't understand is that social conservatives actually believe their moral rhetoric, even when it's politically inconvenient. That's why GOP Rep. Bob Livingston of Louisiana had to resign when his marital infidelities became public during the Clinton impeachment, much to the chagrin of Democrats who wanted to advance the "everybody does it" defense of Clinton. And that's why vast numbers of social conservatives now want House Speaker Dennis Hastert's head on a pike.

Meanwhile, the only moral lapse that consistently offends all liberals is hypocrisy. As Howard Dean declared on "Meet the Press" last year: "Everybody has ethical shortcomings. We ought not to lecture each other about our ethical shortcomings." But he continued: "I will use whatever position I have in order to root out hypocrisy." This is a convenient principle insofar as it can indict only people with actual principles.

Fanning the flames of righteous fervor over Foley will probably reap electoral benefits for Democrats. But the time will come when something like the "Foley standard" will be inconvenient to Democrats. In response, liberals will hold another fire sale. And yet, they will be stunned again when people claim the Democrats don't stand for anything.

[clarice]

Brilliant detective work--special kudos to ts and jmh-My hat's off to you!

[Rick Ballard]

JMH and TS - why don't you two do a piece for AT on this? If it's framed as: "Democratic House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi should be called before the House Ethics Committee to try and attempt to clear up..." it would work perfectly.

[Syl]

And that's why vast numbers of social conservatives now want House Speaker Dennis Hastert's head on a pike.

That's just a lousy excuse. The social conservatives want Hastert to resign out of principle? Where's the principles about finding out what the truth is.

Pfeh.

[topsecretk9]

MayBee

** The way she gets all snippy with the pages when they ask if the book is ever going to get published.***

No kidding, and then um , where's that "print on demand" book?

[Syl]

No, I'm wrong.

It's even worse than that.

The social conservatives want Hastert to resign so that they can FEEL good about their principles.

Pfhe.

Sorry, but that kind of rhetoric and excuse making really really annoys me. It's simply saying, look, we ARE better than you. Nyah. Nyah.

My father left the ministry because he got so sick and tired of people like that. Day in and day out and almost every one of them had their own skeletons.

So sacrifice Hastert and be done with it. We're right. Nothing else matters.

Pfeh again.

[clarice]

I did a shorty on it Rick. Macs working on this, too.TYpos in it..I notified editor to correct.http://americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=6298

I think he sent the stuff to Drudge.

[Rick Ballard]

Syl,

What "vast numbers"? You may be making the same error that Jonah is making. Captain Ed and Michelle Malkin aren't representative of much besides their own viewpoints and both of them have been in 'screw the ready, aim crap - fire at will' mode for quite a while. They have become predictable and tiresome in doing so.

Dobson is as socially conservative a public figure as you're likely to find and both he and Hewitt are supporting Hastert - as is Rush.

Put down the paint brush and look around a bit.

[Pa]

Miller: ""The problem with the "Democrats knew about it" theory is that we are also claiming that (1) Foley didn't break any laws and (2) the IM's were pranks. So if Dems did know, but no laws were broken, what were they supposed to do?""

The point is from the Democrat perspective at the time they though Foley HAD broken the law and they thought eveythingw as real.

What they DECIDED was to allow Foley to continue to do the bad things they THOUGHT he was doing until the could spring a political surprise. Not caring if anyone was being hurt in between.

[vnjagvet]

Jury consultants say that circumstantial evidence is most powerful when you let the jury draw its own inferences, and don't rub their noses in it by 'splainin' too much.

The tidbits JH and ts have come up with sure are interesting, aren't they?

Coincidence? "We report you decide".

[SunnyDay]

Pfeh again.

Hagel is an idiot

Prominent US Republican Senator Chuck Hagel criticised "very unwise decisions" in going to war in Iraq, during a return visit to Vietnam where he served as a soldier in the late 1960s.

more pfeh!!

[Gabriel Sutherland]

The Hastert chatter will weaken over the next few months because of Rove's October Surprise so hilariously characterized by Clarice. The October Surprise is that Republicans are running against The Democrats.

I postured that if the Democrats chose to remain silent on the Foley case they would gain so much more from it. Instead, they embraced the story, used it to run blatantly false ads, and are now packing their boxes planning to migrate to the Chairman offices.

The Foley story had the potential to scare social conservatives away from the polls. Could they trust the Republicans to practice what they preach? This is a very big concern with social conservatives as there are countless stories of disciples being deceived by their pastors and moral leaders. Obviously the exact numbers pale in comparison to the good hearted, compassionate pastors and priests, but bad apples stick out like a sore thumb.

[clarice]

Noel Sheppard has done a reminder to conservatives of what Hastert voted for and what Pelosi did. http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5922

[SunnyDay]

Captain Ed and Michelle Malkin aren't representative of much besides their own viewpoints...

So true - They both seem to go off on tangents lately.

I've been embarrassed for Malkin at times - she gets wound up about stuff that is so beside the point.

[norm d'plume]

Captain Ed and Michelle Malkin aren't representative of much besides their own viewpoints...

So true. That is one of the things I love about this side. Conservative bloggers have their own viewpoints and post accordingly, unlike the townhouse libs.

[Tom Maguire]

FWIW, I have a new "List" post up, so the conversation could migrate over there.

[Jane]

I love Captain ed, and I've never been all that big on Malkin. I'm not a social conservative so that stuff doesn't resonate with me, but on foreign policy, Captain ed is as good as it gets.

OT: Michael Totten has published 3 pamphlets ala Thomas Paine. He's about the best in the blogosphere at what he does too:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/

[clarice]

Jane--I'm with you. Capt Ed brought doen the Libs in Canada and will always be a hero to me. I think the fight to remove Hastert at this point is a circular suicide move and I think it's unwarranted and stupid.

[clarice]

Jane--I'm with you. Capt Ed brought down the Libs in Canada and will always be a hero to me. I think the fight to remove Hastert at this point is a circular suicide move and I think it's unwarranted and stupid.

[Sara (Squiggler)]

Malkin's problem is that she should be spouting her stuff from a pulpit, not from a column and blog billed as being a voice for Republican conservatives.

I don't question her puritanical purity on the social issues. I'm sure she believes with all her heart that she is in the moral and right position. If issues were only decided on the morality question, she might be able to justify her position based on strict interpretations of old fire and brimstone religious thinking, but that isn't the world we live in today. I'm not sure we ever really did, but certainly not the reality of today and today is what we need to deal with.

I vote Republican because as a libertarian there is nothing about the dem platform that remotely reflects my views. I choke down my distaste for the preachy side of the party. I am much more of a social liberal than a social conservative, but how I feel about private issues, which include most of the political social agenda is my business. What I do in the privacy of my own home is strictly my business and I don't care whether Malkin or Boortz or Falwell or Dobson approve or not.

I think the Malkin-think is stupid. I get the impression that she thinks if you don't subscribe to the "fire and brimstone" version, you aren't worthy to vote Republican. Does she ever stop to think what the alternative is? Do we need to take morality tests to get into the voting booth. As a Republican-libertarian flowerchild, I could not pass such a test, but I am absolutely sure that President Bush, our brave men and women in the military, and those who put national security above stupidity are more than happy to have my vote.

[maryrose]

TS JMH, Gabriel , sara et al: Thank you for staying up late so I don't have to. Just found out this time of year makes everyone unseasonably tired. You have done great work.
Gabrielle: I also must get up early to get to work and collect a paycheck. That's hard to do after late nights blogging. But the real truth of this story is coming from the blogs like JOM.

[SunnyDay]

Republican-libertarian flowerchild

I'm trying to get a mental image ;)

[Sara (Squiggler)]

Maryrose, I can afford to stay up late since I can sleep late. Lately though, I seem to be awake more than asleep mostly due to my ongoing back pain. I have to sleep in my recliner, still can't lie down for more than a couple of minutes before the spasms kick in. So, I nap for a half hour, wake up with my laptop right here, do a quick page reload of JOM, jump in, and then nap again for another hour.

I want to work on doing a complete link roundup on the Foley matter. I'm going to work on it today and try to pull the links from all sites together in one place. If anyone has links they think should be included that go beyond AJ, Mac, AT, Gateway, Wizbang, JOM and NR, please feel free to send me an email. I'll pull as much together as I can in the next few hours (between those naps) and post later this afternoon.

[Sara (Squiggler)]

I'm trying to get a mental image ;)

LOL.

[Jane]

Sara,

When I turned right, the thing that caused me the most pause was the social issues. I thought it would make that move very difficult on me. What I have discovered is that the right is for the most part much more tolerant than the left. On the right I've never felt castigated because I'm not religious, or because I am socially libertarian. And that tolerance has allowed me the opportunity to actually explore a different point of view, something utterly verboten on the left.

I've discovered that tolerance is really one of the most important things for me. And if you look at this scandel, and people like Mike Rogers, and the homophobic response on the left, the intolerance on the left comes through so clearly.

[Sara (Squiggler)]

Jane, spot on.

[clarice]

Yes. Check out Rick's post re the Christian conservative websites on the updated Corn thread for proof.

[topsecretk9]

Flopping Aces reminds:

---Recall ABC’s first response to the IM question:

We became aware of the IMs only after we reported the first blotter item on the emails between Foley and a former page last Thursday, September 28. ***As we have reported, ****the IMs were given to us by former pages**** who contacted us after reading that first story.*** As for responding to reader’s questions, we have received tens of thousands of comments on these stories. We would like to respond to every question, but as I’m sure you can appreciate, that is not always possible.---

[Enlightened]

Wow. Oh my. JOM, Mac, Ace and AJ have caused some very dirty diapers and pacifier sales have tripled since yesterday. Goodness, how you all get the info you do is just mind boggling. I think I'm going to need a lead vest and glasses soon, the meltdown is near.

Poor wittle lefties are having such a trying morning. If they could just stay focused, stop writing their conspiracy theories in crayon, and use the potty and not the diapers, they might just get promoted to 1st grade.

[Sara (Squiggler)]

I grew up in a Republican family of educated upper middle class society. I went from that to 30 years of being a military wife. I rarely had a democrat cross my path. I knew no democrats, or at least no one that admitted it anyway. So, I guess I was in a bubble. I first had my eyes opened when I started my caretaking for my Mother after her strokes. I suddenly was thrust into dealing with the California health care industry. My Mother's therapist called me in and told me that I was going to have trouble. That there was quite abit of disturbance over both mine and my Mother's refusal to go along with the recommendations of the social services types to lock my Mother up in a nursing home. Suddenly she with her 170 IQ, me with not as high an IQ but still considered pretty smart, were too stupid to make decisions for ourselves and for her care. They made her life a living hell and mine too. The longer it went on, the more I began to truly hate these self-appointed do-gooders billing themselves as Adult Protective Services. Their agenda is all about control. Control over people's lives and especially over their assets. I was lucky because before my Mother was impaired, she had taken very good legal steps with several different powers of attorney covering every kind of situation, both financial and medical. They tried to come after me, but couldn't because my Mother took steps to protect me before she was ill. If I hadn't had those documents, they would have gotten control, and I would probably be in jail. Everyone needs to have legal documents spelling out your wishes and designating who you want as caretaker/legal trustee/health guardian. Spell it out. If you should be unable to speak up for yourself, make sure your designee is protected so they can fight your battles for you.

[Syl]

Rick B

What "vast numbers"?

I was reacting to and quoqting a line from the article pasted a couple messages above me. (I notice the italics didn't work.)

Social conservatives are saying 'vast numbers'.

I went off grocery shopping and came feeling better. turned on tv while putting stuff away and there were more of them talking about Foley. They're breeding!! LOL

[Enlightened]

Hmmm. the pagealumni server is down.

I wonder how complicit the Page Program is?

[Syl]

Republican-libertarian flowerchild

Works for me.

Thanks for that. And thanks, Jane, for reminding me why I'm on this side.

[JM Hanes]

verner:

The sort of Katsaros black op you describe is a pretty big leap. I think it's far more likely that Pelosi got Chris K. a spot in the page program, and maybe something, if anything, took off from there. Where did you pick up that CK was openly gay? Did I just miss that in the misc. scanning last night? If Foley hit on CK, and CK passed that on to Mom, that could certainly have precipated action on her part -- whether as a reporter (Socially Speaking with Robin Katsaros!) with ties to the left or simply as a mother determined to check out a disturbing revelation.

In any case, I thought the Katsaros quotes from the Buddy Page TSK9 turned up, makes both of their political sympathies clear. Sara pretty much nailed it:

From Mom (snotty elitist):

"Take those red states and SHOVE IT!" - Robin Katsaros (responding to the miserable social statistics in red states).

From Chris (elitist in training):

"They should do a study on how people from the west coast are better than other people..."
"...I mean but at least both east and west coasters can laugh at the people in the middle: They're poor and not tan."
"Like I said, the Democrats are way more smarter."

On a lighter note (if it can actually get much lighter) I was amused by an observation on Katsaros père's business website, given Mom's remarks on leaving her interviews till last (what on earth went into the other putative 14 chapters?):

At the core of Internet Research Group’s success and our continuing work, is the concept and practice of Expert Interviews.... There is a lot of craft in determining who to talk to, what to ask them, and how to ask it. But the results are clear. You learn a lot more from 50 careful interviews than from a poll of 10,000 who don’t have experience with what you’re interested in.

Dad's got a business blog too, btw.

[Enlightened]

Well, Los Altos Hills is extemely exclusive - Big Big Big Big money. I saw another address listed as Atherton - Again, big big big big money. Huge. She's unemployed, and donates a grand to Kerry - probably a drop in the bucket.

[Bruce Moomaw]

"So presumably Mr. Corn, troubled as he is by closeted Republican gays, is equally troubled by closeted Democratic gays."

No, Tom, actually he's troubled by their hypocritical bosses who have made a routine profession for decades of yelling that all gays are evil -- which the Democratic Party has not. Nice attempt to change the subject, though.

[Bruce Moomaw]

In this connection, let's consider the recent comments of John Cole on our host:

"Just One Minute came up with this first, last week: 'However, picture this headline – "House Leadership Boots Allegedly Gay Republican On Trumped-Up Pedophilia Charges". Ugly. Worth Avoiding. Listening to Andrew Sullivan decry the homophobes in the House would not have been worth it. So they played it a bit too cautiously and slowly and here we are.'

"Maybe these hysterical bleatings would have been more plausible if this hadn’t been the de facto party line for the GOP for the past ten years:

" 'Republicans are prepared to oppose homosexual "marriage" in their national platform, Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie said yesterday. 'There is a lot of energy out there, a lot of concern about gay marriage, Mr. Gillespie said. "So it wouldn’t surprise me if it were addressed in some form or fashion in the platform." He accused homosexual activists of intolerance and bigotry by attempting to force the rest of the population to accept alien moral standards. As a result, "tolerance is no longer defined as my accepting people for who they are," the RNC chairman said.'

"You can count on the Republicans to be weak, craven, corrupt, and a lot of things. Afraid of the homosexual lobby just isn’t one of them."

So. Referring back to Tom's current subject: We're supposed to regard exposing hypocritical collaborators with bigots as immoral?

[JM Hanes]

Sara & Jane:

Looks like the conversation is migrating, but I just wanted to ditto your observations about landing on the right side of aisle. I'm so far left of social conservatives that I'm almost off their map, and substantially left of conservatives generally. I'd call myself a Republican, but the term has been so thoroughly conflated with Conservative, that it doesn't mean much any more. While I'm often irritated by a certain arrogance in the "conservative base" as a political block, I've found folks on the right far more willing to engage a much wider spectrum of opinion than there counterparts.

[Tailgunner Joe]

You tell 'em, Moomaw! Those sexually screwed-up predators have absolutely NO RIGHT to privacy. Corn's list needs to be published, and it needs to be published NOW.

Every single gay man on that list is a potential child molester, and AMERICA has a right to know who they are. Hopefully after Corn's list of D.C. gays is published, we'll be able to continue our crusade and start outing all the gay men who are in hiding all over America, before they get hold of our sons.

The is NOTHING immoral about violating the privacy or civil rights of these potential pedophiles. The mere suspicion that these people might be gay means that any witchhunt is completely and fully justified.

Why can't the rest of you neanderthals think of the children, like Bruce does!

[JM Hanes]

Bruce:

Actually, I'd say that engaging the base is only one of two compelling reasons the Republican platform might address the issue of gay marriage. The other is that opposition to it transcends party lines. If gay activists could wrap their brains around that simple fact, and operate accordingly, they might be looking at progress instead of backlash right now.

[Emjay]

This could have been a very interesting website

House Page Alumni Association (Powered by Invision Power Board)

1st post - S Michelman - No longer dem. chief page. Is S.Michelman any relation to Kate Michelman of PA?

2nd post had information regarding 'congress and page pranks' which now has been changed. (1408 replies)..... This probably holds much information.

There is also a mention of Katsaro's book.

This site went down the day the news hit and it has been altered a bit.

[Miguel Guanipa]

If you think about it, there are several coincidental ties to the Foley story with a presumed October surprise by the Democrats. Here’s an angle I see:
Right now CREW is requesting a FOIA inquiry into several evangelical leaders who visited the White House. They have also significantly driven this Foley story which “value voters” are loathe to even touch with a ten foot pole.
If you look at the repertoire of CREW’s FOIA requests they range from things like abstinence based programs to suing Tom Delay, Dick Cheney and anyone who is part of the corrupt right wing conspiracy. In their list of reps to watch they have about ten republicans and one or two democrats, for good measure in case they are ever accused of bias; after all they are concerned with ethics as their name seems to indicate.
Anyways, if CREW determines that any of these evangelical leaders met with Foley (which is not unlikely since Foley was involved in children rights activities)-imagine how long it will take them to peddle this story to an already salivating media looking to paralyze value voters.
Too bad CREW wasn’t around the Clinton years. They would’ve definitely needed more staff.

[red]

"The "serial comma," ... is back in vogue with grammarians (as it should be). Here is an example:

'According to the Department of Defense, Aaron Seal, Chase Haag, Justin Peterson, Denise Lannaman, Christopher Consgrove III, Mario Nelson, Joe Narvaez, Michael Oremus, Satieon Greenlee -- comma -- and eight other members of the United States military were killed this week in Iraq.'

Hope that helps.

--Charles P. Pierce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Charles P. Pierce is a puking idiot!

[imachong]

**out the hypocrites**. hypocracy isnt a minor thing. maybe you all should read the new testament.

and i note the comment thread is full of the usual sloppy, fearful, obtuse generalizations and demonization of 'liberals' as a libertarian, i have to laugh. as usual, you republicans are not conservative and lack any ability to introspect your prejudices and ignorance, you ruin america with your labels and polarization, yet you have the gaul, the temerity, to label yourselves original thinkers? its a hoot. silly people. take away gay rights but cry crocodile tears for the gays who support it who get revealed for who they are, if and only if their party label is republican. shame and pity on you.

[zaazfan]

Welcome to the ioi group facts site where you can learn all you wanted to know about ioi group.