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October 14, 2006

Comments

boris

JMH this test is either poorly developed or agenda driven.

Many of the questions defy a clear answer when careful wording could have.

Example: "You cannot be moral without being religious."

Define religious. Religion is a facet of human nature like language. It is the facet which provides for the collection and natural selection of "morals" to be transfered to future generations.

It's like: "You cannot use words without being haveing a language."

Duh, of course you can, they're just meaningless as a form of communication.

Better question ...

Q: Morality is derived from religion.

But that's not the intent of the question. Clearly environmentalism and global warming beliefs produce their own morality, as does collectivism. Radical terrorist Islam is actually a collectivist revolution that combines radical religious beliefs with traditional socialism, communism and postmodernism.

One does not have to believe in God to appreciate that religion is a system produced by natural selection and as such the value of it's morals depends less on the accuracy of their supernatural beliefs than on the success of the culture.

A bumbersticker that says "What would Jesus drive?" assumes most people would agree on what that would be. The concept of Jesus provides a shared avatar of cultural morality regardless of belief in divinity. It is not necessary to believe Jesus was God to imagine what car he would prefer.

So "morality" can be seperated from the question of supernatural and divinity but not seperated from "religion". Religion is what informs the culture how Jesus would shop for cars, or decide morality.

The race question was also odius. The euro "race" and the asian "race" are subsets of the african "race" that have been geographically and historically selected in different ways. There is a saying that speaking Chinese runs in families but it is not genetic. It is however quite possible, even likely, that the vocalizations and pictograms of the language have been selected from natural human traits to the extent that they are more concentrated in that population. Thus it may be easier for children of population to learn the language.

The race question is apparently meant to sniff out either bigotry on the one hand or blind dogmatic parrot think.

A white who considered european ancestry an advantage in war fighting, might be a bigot. A black who believed his greater height an advantage in sports would be sensible.

Nevertheless ... Economic 5.13 Libertarian -1.18

sad

From what I've heard of the Reid thing, it sounds like a reporting error - nothing more. I have client's using LLCs for similar tax and liability avoidance purposes all the time.

TT Do you also have clients who regularly make money on the sale of property they no longer own? From what I've heard, Reid is claiming partial ownership in the company to which he sold his land originally but has no paperwork to support that claim. IIRC he says it was an agreement between friends. Do your clients routinely make gentleman's agreements involving that amount of money?

SunnyDay

jerry please do not take the discussion here to that level.

Vote Democrat!

jerry is a perfect billboard for what the Democrats offer the voting public: a series of demonstrably false assertions based on misleading media reports topped off by a juvenile homophobic insult.

The NEW new new Democrat slogan: "Vote for us, or you're a cocksucker!"

Cecil Turner

Better question ...

Q: Morality is derived from religion.

Or that they're inseparable, which is the way I interpreted the question when I answered it. Similarly, the "eye for an eye" question appears to be sniffing out those with inflexible standards of justice, though the original concept (from Hammurabi) was a significant shift towards merciful treatment. In both cases I answered "agree," though I wasn't sure the response had anything to do with the characteristic being queried. In any event, my result was a -.88 and -.72. So that seems to leave two possibilities:

  1. I'm a slightly left-wing slight libertarian; or,
  2. this survey is all gooned up.
I'm going with 2.

sad

Need any further proof that Hillary is running in 08? Any bets on the next item to be vetted?

... For more than a decade, one piece of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s informal biography has been that she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, the conqueror of Mount Everest. The story was even recounted in Bill Clinton’s autobiography.

But yesterday, Mrs. Clinton’s campaign said she was not named for Sir Edmund after all.

“It was a sweet family story her mother shared to inspire greatness in her daughter, to great results I might add,” said Jennifer Hanley, a spokeswoman for the campaign.

boris

this survey is all gooned up

Agree Strongly

Any accuracy in my score is probabaly the result of attempting to glean intent of the question rather than comply with a strict literal interpretation. Of course that makes the score bogus as a measurement, essentially forcing the result to be what I thought they thought a free market semi-individualist would answer.

Basically the kind of libertarian who has no problem with Massachusetts enacting tax hell and regulation nightmare as long as it's voluntary and people are free to leave.

... But ... taking that national ... different story. Time to water the tree of liberty.

sbw

Boris: Is this survey all gooned up? o - Agree Strongly

Then subtract .5 point from your previous Authoritarian-Libertarian score.

;-)

The Unbeliever

BTW, I notice that Bob Ney isn't being told to "... resign, or else!"

Obviously you haven't been paying attention then. Oct 14 article - GOP’s message for Ney: Get out

WASHINGTON — Rep. Bob Ney is guilty. Now, House GOP leaders want him gone.

Ney pleaded guilty to federal charges yesterday for accepting thousands of dollars in expensive trips from lobbyist Jack Abramoff and a Syrian businessman. After his appearance in U.S. District Court, the Republican from Licking County said in a statement that he would resign his eastern Ohio congressional seat "in the next few weeks." That’s not soon enough for his party’s bosses, who vowed to remove him from Congress when it reconvenes Nov. 9.

House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., said Ney "betrayed his oath of office. ... If he chooses not to resign his office, we will move to expel him immediately as our first order of business" when Congress convenes Nov. 9.

The statement was issued jointly by Hastert, House Majority Leader John Boehner of West Chester, House Majority Whip Roy Blunt of Missouri and House Conference Chairwoman Deborah Pryce of Upper Arlington.

Emphasis mine, and recall that Congress is in recess at the moment so the House can't do more immediately. C'mon now, TT, at least get your facts straight before you try the old "culture of corruption" nonesense that Pelosi abandoned 5 slogans ago.

Sara (Squiggler)

Atheism is a religion. You can be religiously slavish to any cause or belief system.

Sara (Squiggler)

I think we should start a watchdog group. Jane, Clarice, and any of the other lawyers can help set up the legal side, I'll do the website and be your webmistress, Verner, Slimguy, TS and several others can be our crack research staff, Cahtyf can be our statistical guru, PeterUK can be our historian, etc, etc. Larwyn can be our liason person.

JM Hanes

Cecil:

"I'm a slightly left-wing slight libertarian; or..."

The left/right designation on the chart may be misleading. I gather it's not being used as political designator in the ordinary sense; it's a representation of where you land on the social, as opposed to the economic, continuum. On the social issues we've discussed here, my impression is that while you have definite personal beliefs, you also have something of a live and let live attitude, which would certainly put you to the libertarian left of fundamentalist pro-lifers, for example.

In any case, having looked around, I think this is one of the better political quizzes in circulation -- not too short to miss significant differences, & not onerously long. As I noted when posting the group graphic over at Quasiblog, for the purposes of assessing the relative positions within a specific group, it seems to work quite well. No one in the group that the graphic represents quarreled with the basic distribution -- although we quarreled with each other, often acrimoniously, about everything else under the sun.

I'll put together a new chart for the JOM crew. It will be interesting to see what everyone thinks of the pattern that emerges. Of course, the more folks who are willing to take the test, the better.

2brn02b

"The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win because they love life and we love death." - Nasrallah
...
"It is not in Lebanon's best interest to stop the resistance. We always support this idea. We believe that Hizbullah has an authentic Lebanese identity. We love Hizbullah. I emphasized this in talks with Mr. Chirac, who said he has never called to weaken or disarm Hizbullah, and that on this matter, he is in disagreement with some of his European allies. Hizbullah will remain and will keep its weapons." - Khatami
...

"Fascism is always descending on the United States, but somehow it keeps landing in Europe" - Tom Wolfe
...

Never forget.

Never again.

Leviticus 25:10 - "Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof." - Liberty Bell

Jane

I think we should start a watchdog group. Jane, Clarice, and any of the other lawyers can help set up the legal side, I'll do the website and be your webmistress, Verner, Slimguy, TS and several others can be our crack research staff, Cahtyf can be our statistical guru, PeterUK can be our historian, etc, etc. Larwyn can be our liason person.

I'm in!

boris

I think this is one of the better political quizzes in circulation

Disagree

It appears to be just a wordier more biased (against soc cons) version of the standard 2D libertarian type of quiz.

Environmentalism clearly produces a "morality". But is it "religous"?

Jane

I took the test and I can't even figure out how to articulate the results! I'm just not as bright as I look!

JM Hanes

jerryL

"You believe that with Schiavo, Miers, Dubai Ports, Immigration, Foleygate, Social Security, and even Iraq, there has been some sort of debacle.

And I am not sure how you feel about Iran, NK, or Katrina, but apparently you are just fine with those."

What on earth were you really thinking when you added an obscene flourish to this post? Why deep six the best point you've ever managed to make here?

The problems that the right leaning blogosphere think Republicans are facing in the upcoming elections, are not, in fact, what they're really up against in terms of public awareness. Instapundit's list, for example, is a striking example of this disconnect, IMO.

BTW, would you be willing to take the Political Compass test and let me know your score? I'd like to get as many regulars as possible on the record. :)

JM Hanes

Jane:

Did you by any chance print out your results pages? Just after the first two explanatory graphics, you should see: "Your political compass" followed by two plus or minus numerical scores. The first represents where you sit on the "Economic" continuum, and the second shows where you sit on the "Social" continuum. If you can relay those scores to me, I can map your position so that you don't have to!

I'd hate to ask you to take the test again, but I'd love to be able to put you on the JOM chart I'm working up.

Sue

JM,

I fell in the general area I usually fall in. On this one, I was 0.00 on economic. Other than finding it rather weird that I actually hit the exact middle, I was not surprised by my score.

Sue

I took the test a 2nd time, with the idea of seeing how far to the right I could go with my answer and still feel comfortable. The 2nd time I had a score of 2 point something on the social scale. I can't be a real righty, according to this test. ::grin::

TexasToast

JOM

FWIW, I followed Sue's example and did it again
ECO -1.25
Soc -4.31

I guess the questions struck me differently this time. Are all quwestions weighted the same? There is certainly room for interpretation

JM Hanes

boris:

If you can come up with a better test for this particular purpose, please do let me know! Yes, it's an extended variation on the World's Smallest Political Quiz template, but that grid is a feature, not a bug when your objective is data visualization.

One of the interesting things about this experiment is seeing who raises objections to the test itself and who does not. For what it's worth, two sentences into your post above I found myself thinking, "This is going to be boris." The religious question might have been easier swallow if you had been asked if you liked this statement or not, but that's not what really happens in politics either. When we step into the voting booth, we're essentially being asked to say yes or no to formulations we may or may not like at all.

In any case, I have yet to discover any test of this ilk where I didn't find having to indicate agreement or disagreement unpalatable in one instance or another. It's even more irritating when you're not allowed to continue without registering such an answer isn't it? Which instances those happen to be, however, differ widely from one individual to the next. I'd be interested in knowing how you ultimately answered the moral/religion question. As a matter of what you perceive as bias, what do you make of the fact that I didn't balk in the least at the question the bothered you the most?

PeterUK

"Isn't it interesting - most of us view ourselves as the "reasonable center". I know that on this board I'm probably viewed as the loquacious troll, but I'm probably a good bit to the right of the "drop ins". I grew up in the Baptist church, so I've seen my share of personal testaments of faith. They are genuine heart-felt testaments - not at all insincere or craven. Still, I have to ask each of you claiming to be the center - why do you reserve all your ammunition for the democrats?"

"JMH

Social -3.63
Eco -4.21

Solidly left? - but then, I didn't claim to be in the center."

cathyf

Yikes, JMH, I went to the political compass site that you linked to -- what complete bullshit. So I looked at the first question:

If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.
So, how could I possibly answer such a non-sensical question?!?! Should gravity primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations? What could it possibly mean that "globalisation" could "serve" humanity? This is like asking an agree/disagree question in 1493:
If it is inevitable that the world is round, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.
Every so often I look down into the abyss of a world populated by complete irrational idiots who are so stupid that that have not the foggiest clue of how moronic they are.

Sue

LOL. My only complaint with these political compass tests is they usually don't provide the option of "maybe". Sometimes I neither agree or disagree but those are generally the options.

boris

The religious question might have been easier swallow if you had been asked if you liked this statement or not

JMH, you misread what perhaps I poorly wrote.

Environmentalism clearly produces a "morality". But is it "religous"?

Using this example arguendo, the answer to the quiz question changes depending on the answer to my question.

My answer is this ... any system that produces a "morality" is by definition "religious", regardless of the presence or absense of supernatural beings.

Not religious myself, neither Christian nor secular collectivism, environmentalism or otherism. I do appreciate that Judeo-Christian morality works better than others and attribute it's success to natural selection rather than divine inspiration.

One thing I find offputting is deriding successful, selection tested systems on the basis that their internal intellectual justifications appear to be simply superstition. How could it be otherwise? Selfish gene evolution psychology was not available when Judeo-Christian religions were formed. Even if it was, it only can explain why a naturally selected system works and has less value for constructing an intelligently designed superior system.

IMO the people most inclined to rewire our cultural values are the least understanding of the time tested ones we have, and seem to believe that claiming "there is no god" is sufficient to dismiss their obvious success.

JM Hanes

TexasToast:

I suspect the weighting occurs when you either agree/disagree or agree/disagree strongly, but I really don't know. Most professionally designed tests include a certain amount of redundancy to account for problems like the ones Boris describes, although I couldn't say whether or not this particular quiz purports to do so. It's been a long time since I read through the site itself, but as I recall, I think they do include some discussion of methodology. I also haven't had a chance to dig out the original numbers underlying my own position on the chart yet, but will report them when I do.

In general, I'd tend to go with my first score. One of the reasons the Compass folks probably recommend taking the test before looking at the example of how results are displayed is that it's almost humanly impossible not to engage in some form of second guessing the second time around. I suspect that's especially true for those who are surprised (or suspicious) of the results.

boris

they usually don't provide the option of "maybe".

This one does. I scored 70% 70%, solid middle of the libertarian quadrant.

boris

The 2D result diagram for that other quiz makes more sense also.

TexasToast

I agree that the first cut is the deepest, so to speak, but I wasn't trying to game the test the second time around as Sue said she was trying to get "...as comfortable as I could get...".

I wasn't surprised at the result, but ISTM that responsibility vs coercion as an issue is a nuance not dealt with. For example, I beleve in corporate responsibility, but also believe that regulation should be in the form of incentives rather than coercive fiats.

I wonder if astrology makes one a liberal or a conservative? ;)

cathyf
My only complaint with these political compass tests is they usually don't provide the option of "maybe". Sometimes I neither agree or disagree but those are generally the options.
I'm not looking for "maybe." I'm looking for "Only a complete total moron would think that this statement falls into the class of statements that could be agreed with or disagreed with."

Ok, here's my test:

"Cars should serve motorcycles rather than blueberries."
Strongly agree.
Agree.
Disagree.
Strongly disagree.
"I'll always support my dining room table whether it is wearing shoes or not."
Strongly agree.
Agree.
Disagree.
Strongly disagree.
"42."
Strongly agree.
Agree.
Disagree.
Strongly disagree.

Mad Libs. That's what it reads like. Mad Libs. Remember doing those as a kid?

Bob

Sorry for the hit and run this morning, but I had a client meeting... I do have to work.

anyway I did the test and I'm

Eco +1.25
Soc +2.41

Oh and Texas French Toast your answer was typical and expected... it's always different isn't it, when a Dem gets caught lying and stealing!

Bob

cathyf I like your test better...

It doesn't ask the questions using a negative. This always annoys the liv'n shit out of me.

And the other thing that drives me crazy is the question mentioned above.

"If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations."

By stating the fact that "globalization is inevitable" it infers that trans-nationals are successful, so therefore "it" is serving them, but not necessarily at the expense of humanity. Bottom line its a totally dumb question!


Cecil Turner

I scored 70% 70%, solid middle of the libertarian quadrant.

I scored 60/70, borderline libertarian centrist. Now I'm getting nervous.

Sue

I agree that the first cut is the deepest, so to speak, but I wasn't trying to game the test the second time around as Sue said she was trying to get "...as comfortable as I could get...".

Geeze. I posted my first score. I clearly stated what my intentions were the 2nd time around. I still couldn't get myself into the far right. Stop with the quotations already, like it was something nefarious I was attempting. ::grin::

TexasToast

Sue

Not at all - I tried it your way as well. My ex wife was a shrink - so I have taken all sorts of tests like this one.

They can be very interesting - and CathyF, "forcing" you to answer is a feature - not a bug. If you think this one had silly questions, don't even think about dating service questionaires.

MayBee

I'm with Cathyf and Sue, that test is almost impossible to actually answer.
FWIW, I got
Econ L/R -.13
Social Lib/Auth -1.38

But it means nothing because I was winging it.
I need to know more before I can answer most of those questions.
Here's a simple one that bothered me:
Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers.

Homemakers? Why not ask if their first duty is to be mothers?
And another small example:
Governments should penalise businesses that mislead the public.

Mislead how? By claiming that their whites will be whiter? Or by not mentioning that their toothpaste is laced with mercury?

I can't give an opinion on absolutes and nonsequitors.

MJW

I added my test results to the Quasiblog, but I'll repeat them here:

Although I have my doubts about some of the questions (is thinking astrology's bunk really a left/right, authoritarian/libertarin issue?), the results are reasonably close to how I see myself. However, I'd say I'm more economically conservative than liberal. I think the questions were somewhat biased in that regard. I'm sure by agreeing that corporations should be regulated to prevent monopolies, I up'ed my "liberal" score, even though I have Adam Smith on my side.

Left/Right -0.38
Libertarian/Authoritarian -2.51

clarice

cathyf, that's wonderful. I took it, thought the questions preposterous and forgot my score.

MayBee
This is like asking an agree/disagree question in 1493:

If it is inevitable that the world is round, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.

What you are missing, cathyf, is that some quarters are having similar retroactive discussions now.
My son's recent HS project was to take a side in the debate: Christopher Columbus:Good or Evil?

You see, it is argued that he used the world being round thing to exploit people and commit genocide. He could have left the whole round earth thing alone, until someone willing to use it to spread health care, education, and racial tolerance inevitably came along.

JM Hanes

LOL!

Eat your hearts out, all you non-compliant types! Here's How We Look so far. Ain't we gorgeous?

Hope y'all will recognize the 3 letter acronyms I chose for you, if not, let me know. I've also been known to transpose a number now and then, so if I've graphed you incorrectly, or missed your stats completely, I'll make repairs ASAP.

Anybody else wanna play? Just take the test, and post your scores. I'll do the rest.

boris

JMH, if boris is BOR then you reversed my scores ... Economic 5.13 Libertarian -1.18.

Same for Extraneus. Did you reverse all of them?

JM Hanes

Forgot to identify myself on the new chart:
"Then" = where I landed two years ago
"Now" = where I ended up today

JM Hanes

Yikes! Who's laughing now? Talk about transpositions! Will correct and repost post haste! Thanks.

JM Hanes

OK, We're back! A million thanks to boris for correcting my transposition so quickly. Here's the New Improved JOM Compass.

clarice

All right. I took the stupid thing again and whatever it means, here's my score:Economic Left/Right: 5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.18 (Different slightly from yesterday's I think.)

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