The Duke Debacle

[The LA Times surely counts as major media, and they lead with the real story:

Lab director says he withheld evidence in Duke case

By David Zucchino, Times Staff Writer
5:53 PM PST, December 15, 2006

Durham, N.C. -- In the latest setback to the prosecution in the Duke University lacrosse rape case, the director of a private lab hired by the district attorney testified Friday that he withheld exculpatory DNA evidence after conferring with prosecutors.

Under questioning from defense lawyers, the lab director confirmed that DNA samples taken from the body and clothing of a stripper who accused three lacrosse players of rape did not match any of the defendants. The tests found DNA from several unknown males, Brian Meehan testified, but none matched DNA taken from 43 other lacrosse team members.

... Meehan testified that he and Nifong had decided to withhold certain results of the DNA tests in order to protect the privacy of the Duke lacrosse players who had submitted samples. Asked by a defense attorney how lab results clearing all 46 players would violate their privacy, Meehan fumbled for an answer as Nifong sat with his head lowered, staring at documents.

"It was just simple me trying to do the right thing and say: 'Let's not put that information out there in the public,' " he said. He admitted that he had violated his own lab's protocols, which require that results of all tests be reported in court cases.

Meehan added that he withheld some results in his final report in May "so as not to drag anyone else through the mud."

The media normally loves a cover-up - let's see if they love this.

Newsday, which competes in the NY Times area, also leads with the lab cover-up.  We await the Times coverage.  From Newsday:

DURHAM, N.C. -- Defense attorneys continued to hammer away at the Duke lacrosse rape prosecution case Friday, questioning a private lab director who acknowledged his report on DNA testing had omitted information that none of the Duke players were a match for genetic material recovered from the accuser.

The lab report, by DNA Security Inc., did not specifically note that all three accused players had been excluded as possible matches. "We were concerned about a report that would be explosive," lab director Dr. Brian Meehan testified. He said he and District Attorney Mike Nifong "agreed that it be limited in its scope." Under later questioning he said, "It was not an attempt to withhold information. ... Maybe it could have been done better."]

ABC News has coverage of the Duke debacle, and stand by with a calendar:

Dec. 15, 2006 — The alleged victim in the Duke rape case is expected to give birth in the first week of February, Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said in court today, adding that "the child was not the product of any activities'' from the night of the infamous Duke lacrosse team's party.

Nevertheless, attorneys for accused players Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans, who took issue with the coincidental pregnancy's effect on their defense, sought and were granted permission from a judge to get a paternity test.

It has been more than nine months and three weeks since the March 14 party at which the woman said the three men raped her.

Help me out - from March 14, 2006 to Dec 15 2006 is "more than nine months and three weeks"?

Well.  As we handicap this case, the blessed event raises a new possibility - DA Nifong may move for a dismissal because his lead witness is too tied down with child care responsibilities to deal with the stress of a trial.

That may work better from a PR perspective than the notion that the accuser will simply plead stress, harassment, and intimidation and back out.  We had this hint of such a strategy in June:

The woman's father said in an interview Thursday that she was seeing a psychiatrist and was in no condition to testify. "I don't know how long it'll be before she gets back in her right frame of mind," he said. "It could be years."

Let's open the floor to nominations - how will this case end?  Some ideas:

1 - The judge grants the defense motion and strikes the absurd photo IDs;

2 - Accuser cites baby, withdraws;

2A - Accuser cites intimidation, withdraws;

3 - The Justice Department intervenes - KC Johnson notes that Nifong *may* be vulnerable to a conspiracy charge:

The summary: Nifong knew there were male DNA other than that of the lacrosse players before indicting, and acted anyway--and, in technical terms, he entered into a conspiracy with [DNA Security head] Meehan to prevent this information from coming to light.

Let's catch Nifong backing and filling here:

Meehan’s testimony differed from a stateme

Comments

[cathyf]

Help me out - from March 14, 2006 to Dec 15 2006 is "more than nine months and three weeks"?

Journalist math?

(That is 39-1/2 weeks, and so a baby conceived on March 14, 2006 would be 1.5 weeks overdue by today.)

[clarice]

Actually, I think average baby gestation is 40 weeks.

Anyway, I vote for the first option..

[topsecretk9]

Under later questioning he said, "It was not an attempt to withhold information. ... Maybe it could have been done better.

Nifong strong armed me and I have a business - that does business with Nifong/Durham -- and so I did what he inferred should be done - because I have a business that would like to keep the business I do with Durham...

the latest victim.

[Terry Gain]

Nifong talks " the victim" into giving up the ghost. The case is dismissed "because the victim is so trumatized she can't testify".

Nifong breathes a deep sigh of relief but he's slapped with a lawsuit before he's finished exhaling.

[cathyf]

Actually, I think average baby gestation is 40 weeks.

"Gestation" is counted from LMP, with the assumption that ovulation is two weeks after LMP. (Not appreciating the difference has killed a few unexpectedly premature babies...)

[topsecretk9]

-March 14, 2006-

Was a tuesday, odd day to have a rager, was it easter week?

Anyway, a prenancy calculater plugging in March 14th as last date of mentrual period

Conception Occurred:
(about two weeks after last menstrual period)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006

Estimated Due Date: , , Tuesday, December 19th, 2006

On Friday, December 15th you would be 39 3/7 weeks preggers

Hmm...

Date of your last menstrual period: March 10th, 2006

Conception Occurred:
(about two weeks after last menstrual period)
Friday, March 24, 2006

Estimated Due Date: Friday, December 15th 2006, On Friday, December 15th you would be 40 weeks

According to the calculator...conception on March 14th would look like this (first babies are late - tend to be - though)

Date of your last menstrual period:
Tues. Feb. 28, 2006

Conception Occurred:
(about two weeks after last menstrual period)
March 14th, 2006

Estimated Due Date:

Dec. 5th, 2006

On Friday, December 15th you would be 41 3/7 weeks preggers

[topsecretk9]

Calculator notes:

Only 5% of women deliver their babies on their projected due date, so this date should be used as an estimate - it is not an exact calculation.

---

Sounds like she was messed up (mentally), maybe, possibly was prostituting or very, very promiscuous.

I say this not as a judgement call, but the obviousness of the situation...

she either found out she was pregnant and took the opportunity to blame the Duke guys

OR more likely

got out of her head drunk and when woke to a cop tugging her out of her fellow strippers car - thought she was in trouble (and in the back of mind knew she was preggers) and in a stupor condition cried rape to avoid the drunk tank (or what she perceived was going to happen)

[clarice]

The judge must throw out the ID--the photo array was against local law and unconstitutional.
With that out, we have only her clearly erroneous and varying descriptions of the attackers.
Without anything more and with an order barring her from id'ing them in court, there is no case.

As for a suit against Nifong, I expect that state like most has laws protecting the prosecutor from suit , making that hard to do.

OTOH as the Meehan testimony and other developments in the case come out, there may be a case for prosecuting the prosecutor/Meehan/Gottleib for obstruction of justice.
The really good news is the early admission applications to Duke are down 25% this year, and if any school deserved this punishment, it is Duke for its outrageous treatment of these guys.

[topsecretk9]

--2A - Accuser cites intimidation, withdraws--

My guess and by this becomes in a bizarre twist a victim of Nifong strong-arming!

"Look, I will only let this go if you say you are so scared to proceed...otherwise I am going forward"

My hunch is --- the girl never expected it would go this far - she either was looking for an excuse, a way out or dollar signs...never dreamed of having to testify and make it all the wild accusations real.

[topsecretk9]

--My guess and by this becomes in a bizarre twist a victim of Nifong strong-arming!--

My guess, and by this **comes in** a bizarre twist **--** a victim of

[Bob]

"It was just simple me trying to do the right thing and say: 'Let's not put that information out there in the public,' " he said. He admitted that he had violated his own lab's protocols, which require that results of all tests be reported in court cases.

Meehan added that he withheld some results in his final report in May "so as not to drag anyone else through the mud."

My guess here is that Meehan and the Lab just bought themselves a heap of trouble. But I'll let the lawyers on JOM, say whether or not this statement is a slam dunk to get them sued by the Duke Boys!

[Patton]

I would think Nifong can't be sued if he followed al appropriate laws and procedures..not if he acted with reckless disregard for those procedures and protocols he needs to be held accountable.

I don't know how anyone can still defend him...but someone will.

[Patton]

"""Meehan added that he withheld some results in his final report in May "so as not to drag anyone else through the mud."""

Who exactly could he be referring to? Nifong? If the girl had semen all over her from other men, isn't it Nifongs responsibility to find out if they were the actual rapists, regardless of her testimony
that it was Duke players.

[Jane]

Oh I think the boys have a pretty good case against the lab. I'd take it.

[Patton]

Nifong has inserted himself at least twice that we know of that he didn't belong.

Once on the police ID line up (which he screwed up) and once with the lab results.

Both times trying to make the Duke boys guilty. He needs to be removed, period.

[Kevin]

Mike Nifong pushed through a shaky, at best, accusation of rape against three white Duke students in the middle of an election campaign in hopes of consolidating the African-American vote. (Durham is roughly 45-50% African-American, and within the black community in Durham, there is long standing low key hostility directed towards Duke University and its perceived wealth and "whiteness").

Well, to all the citizens of Durham who voted for him- Congratulations! Your vote just raised your taxes for the forseeable future. When this case gets dimsissed (and it will), the three students and their families will sue the City and the DA's office, and will likely receive a substantial settlement, if only to avoid the embarassment of a civil trial that would lead off every national newscast for its duration (Greta Van Susteren would probably MOVE there).

Further, Mike Nifong's misconduct in this case is grounds for disbarment, if not worthy of a prosecution for civil rights violations. His actions have been exceedingly ugly and obvious from the start. He should be ashamed of himself.

[Patton]

Imagine if Nifong had done the exact same things and the girl had been white and there was three African American athletes.

Jessie Jackson would be on his third march through town and the media would be camped out at the rascist pig Nifongs house hoping to catch him in his KKK outfit.

[clarice]

If you want to know how truly awful the Meehan testimony was go to Professor Johnson's blog. http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/2006/12/nifong-and-naf.html

I see a very good case for obstruction of justice and violation of the defendants' civil rights.

(Imagine how much more outraged coverage this would get were the races of the parties switched. It's a modern Scottsborough boys case IMO.)

[SteveMG]

My guess here is that Meehan and the Lab just bought themselves a heap of trouble.

Not only in this case but all the previous ones prosecuted by Nifong using DNA evidence from that lab. If one, why many ones?

My guess is that there're a lot of attorneys with clients in jail in Durham who will be having short holidays this year.

Nifong too.

SMG

[clarice]

K.C. Johnson hints at that. This is the first time Meehan has ever been cross-examined, and the wise defense counsel simply called him to the stand without advance notice.

I again urge everyone to read his take on the cross-examination. It is clear that Meehan had no knowledge or interest in the state law,"exculpatory evidence", or the proper role of a state contract forensic lab.

[Tom Maguire]

-March 14, 2006-

Was a tuesday, odd day to have a rager, was it easter week?

IIRC, it was spring break week and the lacrosit team was on campus for practice.

[NifongTranslateLiar]

I sense a couple of retaliatory strike capabilites, my favorite of which is Obstruction, Lying, Election fixing, leading ultimately to disbarrment and financial ruin.

This Nifong character is all that is wrong today. Outrage is the least of what we should feel. Vengeful is perhaps the sweetest.

[Other Tom]

If the photo ID's are thrown out (as they surely will be), can't the accuser simply identify them from the stand during the trial? Not that such and identification would carry much weight...

[clarice]

No. The (sound) argument against that is that the tainted photo id process planted the notion in her head that these were the guys.

Then, you get to the varying descriptions she gave before the photo array:Including that one of the defendants had a moustache when the evidence is clear he never had one and the id of a guy who was never there.

And that's just for starters.

[clarice]

Here's another interesting factoid. On Greta last night it was stated that N.C. does not have transcripts of grand jury proceedings..this means that there is no way to test whether the gj had any reasonable basis for the indictment, or even to learn what the prosecutor presented to it.

Surely,Meehan's underlying findings were not.

Looks to me like the lawyers in N. C. have a lot of work cut out for them, revising their criminal proceedings.

[lawhawk]

Wait a moment on the dates. You're working from the date the article was posted, not the date that the story claims she was going to give birth, which is February 2007!

The alleged victim in the Duke rape case is expected to give birth in the first week of February, Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said in court today, adding that "the child was not the product of any activities'' from the night of the infamous Duke lacrosse team's party.

Work back from February, and the conception date is like the first week of May 2006 or nearly 2 months after the rape allegedly occurred.

[clarice]

Meanwhile, on Greta the family spokeman(?-She appears to be a trannie) said the accuser gave birth this week.And Greta named three other family members who confirmed that was true.

Go figure.

[topsecretk9]

--The alleged victim in the Duke rape case is expected to give birth in the first week of February, Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said in court today,--

Um...then that baby was born six or seven weeks early?

Premature - OK happens, but sounds like to me, someone was not being very honest about the "conception" time:

...FOX News' Greta Van Susteren said the information came after conversations with the accuser's father, mother, grandmother and aunt. The family said the woman had the baby on Thursday.

The new information came after an interview with the accuser's cousin, Jakkie, who was aware of the pregnancy but not the delivery at the time of the interview.

Jakkie told FOX News that the accuser was due for birth nine months after the Duke University lacrosse team party where the accuser alleged that she was raped....

[clarice]

Thanks TS, that is how I remembered that show.

[windansea]

They gave the accuser a morning after pill when she was examined at hospital on the night she claimed she was raped.

[ed]

Hmmm.

1. What I find absurd about Greta's show is that she keeps on bringing back that former sex crimes prosecutor Wendy what-her-name-is. And each and every single time Wendy gets pretty much the whole case wrong in her zeal to throw every man in existence into prison.

2. Doesn't North Carolina have the Open Discovery law? Isn't it the law that the prosecutor must share everything he has without any discretion on his part?

3. Am I a prude for thinking that perhaps a mother of two, this last isn't her first child, should perhaps not be having sex with 5 different men in one day?

4. It's fairly obvious that the accuser made her accusations in order to avoid getting into trouble for being high on drugs. It's also fairly obvious that afterward she continued on with this nonsense in the hopes of a big payday.

5. Other than the civil rights aspects of this case the only reason I'm continuing to follow it is to find out just how massive the lawsuits against the DA's office, DPD, Durham County and other individuals and groups is going to be.

Frankly I'd take on the most obvious targets, extract an extremely painful amount of money from them and then proceed to hammer flat every last person in Durham who defamed these guys.

[clarice]

Ed,
1. Wendy is NUTZ
2.N. Car. does have an open discovery law which you have well described.
3. The accuser reportedly told the cops she'd had no sexual relations for a week preceding the "rape".

[Patton]

""Am I a prude for thinking that perhaps a mother of two, this last isn't her first child, should perhaps not be having sex with 5 different men in one day?""

I see nothing wrong with it, as long as these were loving, caring and respectful relations. Perhaps she's just a fast dater...

[Cecil Turner]

Doesn't North Carolina have the Open Discovery law?

Apparently so, per that excellent summary by Prof Johnson that Clarice linked. He suggests the collusion between Nifong and the lab to keep the exculpatory evidence out of the report (and hence from the file the Prosecution had to provide to the Defense) amounted to a criminal civil rights violation. And I'm having a hard time seeing why he'd be wrong.

[vnjagvet]

North Carolina has a very victim friendly Deceptive Trade Practices Act:

75.1.1 Unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce, are declared unlawful.

A practice is unfair if it is unethical or unscrupulous, and it is deceptive if it has a tendency to deceive. Polo Fashions, Inc. v. Craftex, Inc., 816 F.2d 145 (4th Cir. 1987).

§ 75-16 provides, "If any person shall be injured. . .by reason of any act or thing done by any other person, firm or corporation in violation of the provisions of this Chapter, such person,. . .so injured shall have a right of action on account of such injury done, and if damages are assessed in such case judgment shall be rendered in favor of the plaintiff and against the defendant for treble the amount fixed by the verdict.

Looks to me like based on the testimony under oath yesterday, Mr. Meehan has subjected himself and his company to significant treble damages.

The statute also provides for attorneys fees to the prevailing party if the perp refuses to settle.

My legal foundation will take that case on a contingent fee. It is worth the net worth of Meehan's company or the limits of whatever liability insurance it carries.

Clarice will help, I know. Right, Clarice?

[clarice]

Sure..the problem is that Meehan's operation seems to not be a deep pocket one.

First let's examine its assets and insurance coverage.

[Jane]

1. What I find absurd about Greta's show is that she keeps on bringing back that former sex crimes prosecutor Wendy what-her-name-is.

Wendy Murphy? If that's the one, I know her personally and she is just as obnoxious in real life.

Don't tell her I said so.

[clarice]

HEH! Obnoxious is one thing, her analyses, however, are bizarre.

[SunnyDay]

I think sometimes she and BOR go out of their way to get the most obnoxious outrageous "differening opinion" they can find. It give the program an "edge."

Then they pay them big bucks to all argue at once while the time runs out, so you feel like you've been in on a good, satisfying fight.

[Jane]

I'm not surprised, I think she only practiced law for a couple of years as an asst DA, and I don't think she made much of a mark for herself. I have to turn the channel when she gets on TV because I find her so obnoxious - in a Gloria Alred sort of way.

[TCO]

It's not up to the accuser to decide to withdraw. Rape is a felony and as with all felonies, it is prosecuted by the government. It is the government's decision as to prosecution or not. Even with a reluctant victim, the state can (and usually should) just compell testimony by subpoena. It is not up to victims to drop or press charges. One hears this confused a lot in the press and in conversations.

[clarice]

True enough, but prosecutorial discretion can only go so far--when there is no case(and there isn't one here) the charge should not have been pressed and the case once brought should be dropped. No reasonable person could on the facts find guilt.

[billy missle]

The moral of this story?
Maybe rich white boys in college should spend more time in study and less time hiring strippers. Play with fire and you get burned. Now we continue with the fine lawyering they bring upon thier head.
Legally innocent..morally bankrupt.
**************************************
I want to wish all of you here a merry christmas and a happy new year.
Billy Ray Missle

[SunnyDay]

The moral of this story

Good luck with that. ;)

[ed]

Hmmmm.

From what I understand:

1. The LAX players used to go to a strip club until the law concerning minimum age limits made it so that the youngest players could no longer go to a strip club.

2. The reason why the LAX players went to strip clubs at this particular time was both as a tradition for the team, an initiation for new players and because the LAX players would have to miss out on spring break.

3. The reason why the LAX players hired two strippers was because the entire team couldn't go to a strip club.

4. I've been in situations like this where you're expected to show up to a party you'd really rather not go. You can bet that a fairly large number of LAX players would have been far happier with a couple of kegs and the tv turned to ESPN.

5. Never understood why some men liked strip clubs. I generally prefer spending my time with women who neither view me as a walking wallet nor as a job.

6. Wendy Murphy. Yeah she's the one. Frankly comes across as extremely nutty.

7. I find it curious how so many people all over the web seem to think that justice is really only suitable when the defendent is either a minority or poor. Otherwise, and particularly when the subject is white and relatively weathly, the term "deserved" seems to crop up on a regular basis.

I know about white guilt and everything, but really now. This stuff has gone overboard. I can't help but wonder when the backlash will come when whites no longer feel any such guilt and when their eyes open to the racism that they've been subjected to.

But then again I'm asian so I can say things like that.

[ed]

Hmmm.

Just in case: the previous wasn't necessarily a response to anyone. Just general observations.

[Specter]

I think the moral is different Billy.

While I don't approve of the young men's behavior of hiring strippers, or even inappropriate comments and slurs, I will say that there would not be strippers if there was no market for such things. Just take as an example the number of strip clubs out there (including Chippendales where women watch men). There is a market and the market has "vendors" who provide the "services".

I think the true moral is that we are seeing that our legal system is in serious need of repair. That a DA can use a case like this for political gain; can hide exculpatory evidence if desired - shows that there may be a rampant problem. Also remember that one of the police investigators filed an amended report after the defense had pointed out holes in the prosecution's case - and that report attempted to fill those gaps. It shows what appears to be an active conspiracy on the part of LEA, prosecutor, and the lab. I personally think this is going on all over the country - the new breed of LEA/Prosecutor raised on "Hill Street Blues", "Law & Order", and now the infamous "Shark". And while it may not be all prosecutors, the incidence of prosecutorial misconduct is rising.

Immunity needs to be done away with. If you can't strike back at obvious immoral and unethical behavior, then the problem will never be resolved, and will likely continue to worsen.

[clarice]

I wonder when Asian Americans will stop supporting a party whose support of AA makes admission to top colleges so much harder for ASians..

[clarice]

Too many prosecutors see their positions as stepping stones to higher political office and have taken advantage of their posts to that end.

Earle: DeLay prosecution
Nifong:Duke team
Spitzer:Corporate officials
?: Arthur Anderson
Comey:Martha Stewart
Fitzgerald:Libby

[TCO]

Clarice, I was just trying to make a specific point (and I'm not a lawyer, so correct me if wrong). No need for your comment in apparent apposition.

[billy missle]

The moral of this story

Good luck with that. ;)

Posted by: SunnyDay | December 16, 2006 at 03:56 PM
I must admit Sunny.. I nearly fell on the floor laughing with your quip.
I don't need good luck ( sounds wierd )
We never hired strippers in College.. we didn't take hand guns to strip clubs..We didn't fight at OSU football/basketball games. We refrained from rape and mayhiem to our sisters..we studied and explored but tried never to break the law. We had fun and worked hard. Guess that all that got us was...I donno know..must of us ended up happy, rich and proud of our children..And I think most of our kids ended up proud of us..So if the Dukey boys don't learn what life is really about..boo hoo shame on them.
Maybe mom and dad need to buy better lawyers
to compensate for thier upbringing..
I know that sounds cold..well, we are dealing with rich jocks that have never been told NO before...
Breaks my heart..Truth often breaks hearts.
If my sons pulled that stunt... oh boy..how was that district attorney? These parents would support thier kids if they murdered people..I'm a jerk..if you are guilty..even if you are my child..you WILL pay the piper.
Thank god my kids are so cool and respect people. Sorry folks I'm old fashion and not buying the BS. You are who you are..If you wrong humanity..Don't call..Bail money stays in the bank.........

[clarice]

Oh, please...The most responsible men I know went thru college behaving like the guys in Animal House, including my husband.

There's a time for everything--including the ID.

[clarice]

TCO, you said nothing wrong at all. It's just that my head is exploding with TV commenters who suggest that now that the case has been brought nothing should be done to stop it--we must now leave it to the jury.

Judges are not supposed to allow cases to go to the jury when--as here--no reasonable person could on the facts most favorable to the prosecution vote to convict.

[Other Tom]

I haven't seen any evidence that these white boys are "rich," and I haven't seen any evidence that no one has ever told them "no." And the notion that if you behave in a boorish way you should expect a badly tainted criminal prosecution to be brought against you is insane.

[centralcal]

As usual you all are very informative and even amusing. But, please . . . this case is very frightening in its implications.

A state, North Carolina; a District Attorny, Nifong . . . which both appear to support a travesty posing as "justice."

I am ignorant of legalese, as are most citizens, but this case smells to to "the high heavens," and I hope there is a remdedy somewhere in our system. Nifong is the one who should be seeking legal counsel.

[TCO]

Clarice, oh. I haven't watched TV for years.

[clarice]

A good idea. I.OTOH, am hooked on the news--I need to keep an ear out for what the popular press is doing to "suck our brains out" every day. %^)

[TCO]

Know any pretty single girls for me in DC or Richmond?

[clarice]

Sorry. I don't at the moment, TCO.

[SunnyDay]

my "good luck" comment was joking. But seriously, many good, decent guys are a little wild in college. These boys didn't ask for something like this, and don't deserve it.

I agree that the runaway prosecutors we're seeing are scary, and is probably indicative of a deeper problem.

The idea "rich white boys" don't deserve to be treated fairly is beyond wrong. Where are all the activists? Obviously they don't speak up for white boys.

[TCO]

Well if they are going to go to jail, they should at least get to bang her once. Can we all agree that is fair?

[Specter]

ewwwwwww....no!

[Other Tom]

Second prize, they have to bang her twice.

[clarice]

http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/3657/danapics/church_l.jpg

[quest33]

I've been away for a while and have been unable to comment.

First I would like to say that if the Duke team had been able to hire two "white girls" like they first requested, they wouldn't be having the problems today.
So a good morale is "accept no substitutes."

The lab is in big trouble. So is any case in which they presented evidence. The State/County/City's will spend a lot of money and time (more money) trying to sort it out and defend themselves and their convictions. Also in general DAs and Justice in NC are going to be smeared by this. They will not like that at all.

Nifong has been in trouble all along. It is just getting deeper and deeper. He may have to become a real estate lawyer after his term, if he lasts that long, and if he still has a license. He also can be sued civily if indeed as it appears he has been so conniving and "political" and acting outside the law. A prosecutor can be stupid, but not when it is easily showed to be for personal gain, or that he is in criminal conspiracies. Then he is not above the same law he twists so badly.
It is possible that enough will come out that he can/will be prosecuted criminally.

There are seemingly a lot of rumours about the child of the stripper, whether already born, or to be born soon, or later, or maybe of immaculate conception - a time of this Christmas season thing, maybe. Likewise her last period and such. It seems everyone but the mailman has given data on it. But then maybe he is culpable.

Frankly I love it. It is rich.

One of the truly entertaining stories.

As for the 3 boys, yes they have suffered and probably wrongly, but that is what can happen when boys play with matches.

test

[JorgXMcKie]

billy missile, are you accusing them of some crime *other* than the rape charge for which you have evidence they're guilty? Is hiring strippers in Durham illegal? (Since I have no idea, I'll defer to others on this.)

And why are you assuming they're 'rich, white boys'? And is *that* a crime, too?

Are you saying they took handguns to football games and perpetrated 'rape and mayhem' on girls at Duke? Exactly what crime ARE you claiming they've committed, anyway?

And you certainly seem to be able to read minds pretty well. How would you know what their parents think?

Your postings read like a prime example of class envy, except it would appear that the young men (isn't it racist or something to keep calling them 'boys'?) in question are pretty solidly middle class.

Maybe you have 'class envy' in the sense that "you got no class, a**hole!" kind of way.

And, were I you, I'd refrain from patting myself on the back too hard, lest you break an arm.

[topsecretk9]

While I don't approve of the young men's behavior of hiring strippers,

I do.

What the crud? They are a bunch of college boys doing what college boys do -- they hired strippers...WHAT ABOUT THE COMPANY THE strippers were employed by? (same as a liquor store) WHO LET THEIR EMPLOYEES go to a place of underaged men?

Come to think of it, do we know the name of the company star, or sparkle, worked for? Seems to me they hod the greatest liability, did they contribute to nifong?

[topsecretk9]

We never hired strippers in College.. we didn't take hand guns to strip clubs..We didn't fight at OSU football/basketball games. We refrained from rape and mayhiem to our sisters....

GAG and sorry, please provide proof the Duke boys were packing.

Boy, some on the left really, really need or want this to be true no matter --- Pat Kennedy was accused of bitch slapping his Betty boatside, and his cousin? --the apparent serial rapist - was supported in spite of a young single mother alledgeging he pushed his manhood in her and um...leftist's sorta ignored it...They are white.

these boys deserve at least a Ted Kennedy support NO?

[Daddy]

Professor KC Johnson has a very relevant new post up at his Durhamwonderland Blog (Sunday Hearing Round-Up) which is a terrific read. His description of the obvious differences in professionalism evident in the courtroom between the Defense table and the Nifong table is sadly hilarious.
Sorry I don't know how to do links, but defintely worth the button pushes to get over there.

[quest33]

Daddy poster,

just type into the box the contents of your address line.

I will then select that line with my mouse/cursor, copy it(right hand click), and paste it (right hand click again) into my address line.

You dont' have to make a url.

[Patton]

We may have this all wrong.

It may just be Nifong is bucking for a position in the Hilliary Rodham Justice Department.

Or maybe just to replace Craig Livingstone and handle the illegal use of FBI files.

Imagine how many positions he could be up for as a half brained, law undercutting, liar in Hilliary's Justice Department.

[Jane]

Oh, please...The most responsible men I know went thru college behaving like the guys in Animal House, including my husband.

Assuming the "victim" made it up, my guess is that she did it because of the racial slurs that went on, not because the guys were acting like john Belushi.

I am woefully naive about the ways of the south. I know that a friend's son who goes to UNC was completely shocked at the way the whites refer to the blacks at his school. He'd never heard anything like that in the pristine northeast. (apparently our racism takes other forms).

Having not paid much attention even I am pretty well convinced that there is a bunch of prosecutorial conduct going on here, that is certainly not justified by hate speech. But the Duke guys seem to have put themselves in this position, as undeserved as it is.

[Jane]

Oh dear, I did it again

[Patton]

Much more likely Jane is the girl was looking at jail time if she was arrested for drunk in public or using narcotics or whatever, so rather then go to jail, she got a trip to the hostital.

But your absolutley rght if they called her a name like Cracker, Honky, Whitebread, etc., she had every right to file a false police report and have us tax payers pick up millions in costs.

Keep digging Jane, sometime you will actually find a plausible explanation why these students are on trial.

Ever hear of blaming the victim? It works both ways. Your 'they had it coming' talk just shows we haven't come very far.

[Patton]

"""I know that a friend's son who goes to UNC was completely shocked at the way the whites refer to the blacks at his school. """

Does this mean he wasn't shocked at how blacks refer to whites, or that he hasn't actually had a conversation with a black person? or maybe he's just hanging with the wrong crowd.

[Patton]

Jane ""Assuming the "victim" made it up, my guess is that she did it because of the racial slurs that went on, not because the guys were acting like john Belushi."""

Wow! Good call. I mean a drug abusing, stripper/prostitute that has semen on her from 5 guys, a pimp, takes her clothes off for money, has several prior arrested and prior claims of unsubstaitiated rape, and has recently engaged in lesbian sex with dildos for money just couldn't stand a racial remark that just
devestated her moral sensibility.

Good call Jane, good call!

[Sue]

I am woefully naive about the ways of the south.

If I'm not mistaken, at least 2 of the boys are from the northeast. NJ and NY to be precise. I wonder why stereotypes persist?

[Cecil Turner]

Prof Johnson's Sunday Hearing Round-Up.

[Patton]

No NO Sue, we know all these big colleges recruit local community rascists for their sports competition programs.

they would possible go out of state would they?

Perhaps Janes relative heard alot of North Easterners taking about African Americans.

[Specter]

Patton and Jane,

I don't think it was because of the slurs. I suspect it was because the "girls" only danced for a short time, and the "boys" refused to pay them the entire agreed upon amount. She was POd that she didn't get her money and wanted to get even. 'Course that is just speculation.

TS,

I never said that hiring of strippers doesn't happen - just that I didn't approve of it. The reality is, like I said above, that there is a market for strippers and there are "vendors" who provide the service. The problem here was that there were underage guys. And not that they wouldn't sneak into a club or anything like that....

[ed]

Hmmmm.

What I find rather amusing, other than "billy missle"'s fairly odd assertions, is just how much the AA community complains of percieved racial slights when the merest glance at rap lyrics offer far more dramatic examples of anti-white racism.

A couple days ago, CNN I think, had a little story on racism and how there's a difference between how people perceive themselves and how racists they really are. *laugh* yeah, one of *those* things.

Obviously the people being tested were all white and the people who were in the roundtable discussing it, other than Paula Zahn, were all black.

Astonishing.

[ed]

Hmmmm.

@ specter

I agree with you but I believe that the dancers got the whole $800, $400 each, for dancing even though they were contracted to dance for 2 hours when in fact they "danced" for all of 15 minutes.

So the "moral" of this story is that if you hire strippers and they show up drunk, show them the door immediately and complain to the contracting company.

[Patton]

A friend of mine (Yes he is black and he does exist) had a daughter who travelled to Africa to work in an orphanage for the experience and to give to her community of fellow blacks. She thought she would find a struggling orphanage taking care of the worst off children and people scraping by to survive. She wrote a very interesting letter when she returned:

1. The 'orphanage' she worked at was actually the best place in town to be and was kept behind locked gates and high walls
to keep people out. The children in the orphanage were actually the best off compared to how the others were treated by their own families.

2. She was shocked to see people living in mud huts, decrepit buildings and squallor and sat around talking on their cell phones.

3. The rascism amongst the blacks was vicious and deep rooted. She is fair skinned and was amazed at how darker blacks were treated by lighter skinned blacks.

----------------------------------

I also love for people to see the PBS show about the Harvard head of black studies that supported reparations. He wanted to show how badly his African people were treated and why the descendants deserved compensation. What he discovered was that he was MOSTLY white (Northern European) and his family were never slaves and never brought to the US against their will.

He in fact should have been one to pay the reparations, not receive them, even though he has black skin pigment.

[Clyde]

Given the history of Alcee Hastings, I foresee an upcoming congressional career for Mr. Nifong.

[Jane]

But your absolutley rght if they called her a name like Cracker, Honky, Whitebread, etc., she had every right to file a false police report and have us tax payers pick up millions in costs.

That's not what I said Patton. But of course you know that.

[JJ]

Living nearby, I am not surprised by anything going on with this case.

What I am waiting for is the oversight process to kick in. Anytime now...waiting...waiting.

Keep in mind that Duke and UNC have excellent law schools.

[clarice]

I thought Johnson's report of the hearing was excellent, too. I also liked his discussion about Meehan's operation; the many (unrecorded) telephone conversations he had with Nifong and Gottleib (also in the crosshairs) and the likelihood that Meehan's operation would be de-credentialed for his action in this case.

I think Professor Johnson is laying the groundwork for any prosecutor with enough guts to bring a criminal obstruction case against the prosecution/

Over the past days Johnson has also done an outstanding job on the press coverage, noting that the NYT which prejudged the case from the outset--as rich bad jocks attacking poor young thing--has avoided reporting Nifong's denouement.

[verner]

Hey Clarice,

You've got mail...

[Jim Rockford]

As a Westerner who's spent some time in the South I can comment:

Class counts as much if not more than race among both Blacks and Whites. Left unspoken is the fear of crime and how physical intimidation allows a criminal underclass (white in some areas, black in others) to gain power over higher socio-economic groups.

It's not only NOT uncommon but VERY common to see enlisted military non-coms, police officers, and the like to marry across racial lines. Easily checked too, walk around various malls in Alexandria or Crystal City Virginia.

The upper classes don't mix very well though, a great degree of separation.

HOWEVER expressing racist views among whites marks you as stupid and uneducated, a poor social prospect in the job market, dating market and the like. Expressing caution about venturing into areas with lower-class blacks due to crime (which is a real concern) was not considered "racist" however. Middle class African Americans would also express concerns about poor white areas, mostly in rural areas. AND poor black urban neighborhoods. There is also of course a heavy dose of anti-Semitism among Blacks, both poor and middle class.

Is it possible the Duke players made racist or racial statements? I suppose it is. But I observed no problem with white men in the South admiring Halle Berry, Angela Basset, or Tyra Banks, or Sanaa Lathan's beauty, or white women the physical gifts of Denzel Washington, Michael Jordan, or the rapper du-jour.

Pretty hard to be racist if you find very physically attractive a member of the opposite sex of a different race.

Much of the "racism" is really class garbed in other clothes. THough I have no doubt racism particularly in the old aristocracy does indeed exist (old line New Orleans krewes simply did not parade rather than admit blacks. Which was fine for the younger set who started their own integrated krewes such as Endymion or Orpheus).

[clarice]

I don't think there is any evidence that they made racist remarks. I think there's plenty of evidence that the accuser said she was raped after she had reason to think she was being booked for her behavior.

[clarice]

A little fun via instapundit

http://instapundit.com/archives2/2006/12/post_1100.php

Verner, got the message ..check your mail.

[Jane]

Much of the "racism" is really class garbed in other clothes.

That is food for thought.

[maryrose]

NiFong and Meehan are going down. This case cries to heaven!

[billy missle]

I just arrived in montreal and read the responses.
You guys beat me up pretty good. OK, I'm Sorry. Your arguments are pretty strong..and mine are pretty weak.
I guess my main point is if you play with fire you get burned. ( As offensive as I came across..)
I Stand corrected.
Someone said it was a case of class envy..
Maybe..But I've made a million dollars 10 times over. I expect a higher responsibility from my kids..( I got alot ) It would bother me to no end to have a child of mine getting a free ride in college ( I worked to get through school ) To hire strippers and party all the time. That's just me and it's not fair to project that on Duke kids.
I'm an old guy but any kid spending 40k on college needs to realize how good he has it and act responsibly and be a leader and mature..But like you said..kids will be kids and I should not judge them by just my standards..But by the law...
So again I am sorry for such crass statements about a situation when I have no idea of the facts of the case.
I will humbly admit I am an idiot..
Unless my kid in school hires strippers..
Then he will have to do what I did and deliver pizza for 4 years..
Kind regards,

[clarice]

HEH! There there..all is forgiven. (And for the sake of your health do not spring a surprise field trips to your kids at college.*wink*)
You don't want to know.
You especially do not want to visit their roome. Definitely do not want to.

[billy missle]

Clarice
Merci Beau coup...
I was feeling pretty bad about those stupid statements..
Merry christmas
Billy

[ed]

Hmmmm.

# billy missle

*shrug* From all accounts the LAX players do like to party hard and they do encounter trouble with the law for minor infractions involving drinking. But I've seen a lot worse in my time in the USMC, a *lot* worse, than what I've read about the LAX players.

Additionally you should consider that they spend a lot of time practicing for their sport, one that doesn't have a national tv following nor a professional league to offer a future 7-figure career in. So they also have to maintain their focus on their degree tracks. Something that they evidently must do since by all accounts they have some of the highest grades for student-athletes.

Now is drinking a lot a good idea? Not at all. But I'm 43 years old and it wasn't unusual when I was a kid for adults to have a 2 six-pack evening every day after work. Or more. Most adults I knew growing up in NH would drink 2 six-packs to unwind and then head to the local VFW or Moose Lodge for a few more.

So the whole concept doesn't seem that outre.

[clarice]

Instapundit says it's time to reconsider the breadth of the prosecutorial immunity laws and professor Banzhaf has emailed this about:
"
As the rape case against three Duke lacrosse players continues to unravel, and instances of apparent prosecutorial misconduct multiply, it appears increasingly likely that the accused students will be able to recover civil damages against the county and perhaps also the district attorney, says the public interest law professor who has successful orchestrated legal actions against several major governmental figures, including former Vice President Spiro T. Agnew.

"Although prosecutors generally enjoy absolute immunity from civil liability for violating the constitutional rights of defendants, there are instances -- and this may well be one of them -- where that immunity doesn't apply," says Law Professor John Banzhaf. Moreover, Durham County, NC, does not have absolute immunity, and so the county could be held liable for millions of dollars in civil damages even if District Attorney Michael Nifong is protected from law suits, notes Banzhaf."

http://instapundit.com/archives2/2006/12/post_1114.php

[Cecil Turner]

But I've seen a lot worse in my time in the USMC, a *lot* worse, than what I've read about the LAX players.

Ain't that the truth. But seeing worse animal acts has generally lessened my tolerance for them, especially when underage folks are involved. I've little sympathy for the players, and would unhesitatingly support whatever administrative action Duke authorities proposed . . . including shutting down their athletic program or targeted expulsions. I also would've supported Nifong citing the lot of them for whatever variation of "disturbing the peace" or (the G. Gordon Liddy favorite) "mopery with intent to creep" or even "being a%%holes in a no a%%hole zone" if he cared to bring those charges. (Just as a similar uproar amongst military personnel would be subject to article 134: "prejudice of good order and discipline . . .") But it's fairly obvious there was no rape.

It's also obvious the sainted "victim" in the rape case is just as guilty on the mopery charge, a substance abuser, some brand of prostitute, and making false and self-contradictory accusations. That's a heckuva lot worse than the players' actions. And since the DA and DNA lab director decided to get on the violating civil rights train, they get the award for "most heinous" . . . and by comparison, the lacrosse players' misdemeanors pale into insignificance.

[Jane]

Cecil,

I think you summed the whole mess up perfectly.