Now-Traditional Plame Open Thread

Ari testimony, 1 , 2, 3 from Marcy Wheeler - grimmer than I expected for Libby, since I had guessed the "hush-hush, on the qt" comment would be a general statement about the Wilson trip, not a specific comment about the wife.

Also, when did Libby find out her name was Valerie "Plame" [which is how Ari said Libby  identified her, although he waffles on cross]?  She was "Wilson" in the INR memo; Novak says he got it from "Who's Who", but he should not have passed that back to Rove or Libby by July 7.

My old stand-by guess - someone got tired or referring to "Wilson's wife" and looked her up themselves.  But if Libby did that prior to July 7, his memory defense has a major problem.  Same point if Libby was told that by someone (no one who has testified has called her "Plame", I don't think, but I welcome advice on this point.)

Well - we can see why the defense wants to paint the picture that Ari is part of a "Protect Karl, Dump Libby" cabal.  And Ari Fleischer is describing an undocumented face to face meeting - he will never be tried for perjury if he is embellishing this story.  Still, this is the better day for Fitzgerald that we had expected.

As to Cathie Martin - obviously, the Usual Suspects will make a big deal out of this, from Ms. Wheeler(Martin IV):

W If you look at talking points before and after there is no mention of Mrs. Wilson.  Is it fair to say that when the Novak article came out, from your personal perspective that was not viewed as a big article.

M It wasn't a huge revelation to me because I KNEW, I knew it was a big deal that he had disclosed it.

Wells sensibly moved on, but Fitzgerald did not come back to that on re-examination, which one might have expected.  Is Fitzgerald asleep at his own trial, or was this some sort of misunderstanding?  Frankly, (I paraphrase) "it wasn't a huge revelation because I knew it was a big deal" is not a phrase that makes a lot of sense to me.

But in a pinch, go to re-write: "It wasn't a huge revelation to me because I knew".  And so she did - she already knew that Ms. Plame was at the CIA.  Ms. Martin then follows with, "I knew that it was a big deal that he had disclosed it". 

OK, how did she know it's a "big deal"?  Does any of her testimony suggest that Harlow, or anyone, had warned her to keep this quiet? 

Or was it a "big deal" that Novak had disclosed it because Novak was not on their target leak list and the wife was not one of their talking points, which meant (here comes the Big Deal!), that some other person or group was leaking their own story about the Wilson trip to the press.  The implication would be that the message coordination had collapsed, and for a pressie, that is a big deal.

I'll stop now - as noted, this is the traditional open thread.  But let me just say, the collapsed message coordination as the Big Deal is not a bad theory - hey, you try spinning this, uhh, stuff into something resembling non-stuff sometime.

UPDATE:  Who ya gonna believe, Ari Fleischer or John Dickerson, then of TIME?  Here is Mr. Fleischer (2):

P Were you in Uganda. Can you tell us if you had an occasion to talk to reporters by the side of the road.

Fl President walking toward second event. Meeting with young children who were going to sing songs. A group of reporters on the side of the road. I recall I said to these reporters, If you want to know who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there. Tamara Lippert Newsweek, David Gregory and John Dickerson, Time Magazine.

Here are two Slate articles by John Dickerson on that very topic:

My inbox was a mess. In the middle of it was an e-mail from Matt Cooper telling me to call him from a land line when I had some privacy. At some time after 1 p.m. his time, I called him. He told me that he had talked to Karl Rove that morning and that Rove had given him the same Wilson takedown I'd been getting in Uganda. But Matt had the one key fact I didn't: Rove had said that Wilson's wife sent him.

But if Ari is accurate, not only did John Dickerson know about the wife, he knew (and called the Washington bureau, but they were all busy) before Cooper talked to Rove.

Well, if Ari was making stuff up, that would have been a helpful detail for Rove, anyway. And as Mr. Dickerson notes, Fitzgerald had made a hash of the timeline in his Jan 26, 2006 letter to the defense the President was in Uganda on July 11, and Uganda is ahead of Washington, time-wise.

And how does this affect Libby's prospects?  Well, if Ari is lying, that probably helps Libby.  Or, if Mr. Dickerson was not fully forthcoming in his public writings and not investigated by Fitzgerald, one might wonder what other reporters are also, ahh, being parsimonious with the truth.

Since this is the age of instant information, John Dickerson has posted his reply at Slate:

I have a different memory. My recollection is that during a presidential trip to Africa in July 2003, Ari and another senior administration official had given me only hints. They told me to go inquire about who sent Wilson to Niger. As far as I can remember—and I am pretty sure I would remember it—neither of them ever told me that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.

Game on.

Comments

[cboldt]

Q: Was the is a big deal? A: It wasn't a big deal to me, because I knew, but I knew that Novak's article was a big deal for putting it out there. [WB Jan 29]

[Cecil Turner]

The July 7-10 time frame is the part that never made sense in Libby's story. He had to've known some time in that process . . . even if he was getting it confused. So his "reminder" with a reporter had to've happened earlier than that (or he had to've mentally reconstructed it that way later). The "heard it from Russert" to Rove on the 11th suggests he could've been conflating it with someone else in that general time frame. Woodward is the only known source that works with timing (though Andrea Mitchell is a possibility, I guess).

But while I suspect Ari's got some issues slightly off, I'm not willing to bet the gist of his testimony is wrong.

[Ranger]

Ok, so here is my question. Why didn't Fitz just start with Ari and then fill in how Libby knew afterwards?

[Rick Ballard]

P Were you in Uganda. Can you tell us if you had an occasion to talk to reporters by the side of the road.

Fl President walking toward second event. Meeting with young children who were going to sing songs. A group of reporters on the side of the road. I recall I said to these reporters, If you want to know who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there. Tamara Lippert Newsweek, David Gregory and John Dickerson, Time Magazine.

P was this a formal interview?

Fl One of the many conversations I had with the press, the event was not one I had to be there. You sidle up to reporters and chat what was on their mind. Maybe this will address some of these issues about how people got sent. This backs up WH statement.

P What part of it backs up WH account?

Fl Allegation WH twisted intelligence. Amb Wilson wrote that a report had been filed. He said Cheney had played a role must be known by VP. I had been told by two WH officials, which I seemed like I should send on. VP wasn't involved in it. That's why I made a judgment to say that to the press.

P Did you statement get much of a reaction?

Fl Press's reaction was so what. Didnt' take out notebook, Didn't ask any follow-up calls.

P Metaphorically speaking?

Fl Like a lot of things i said to the press it had no impact.

Sharp as marbles, those newsies - if it don't fit the meme it didn't happen.

[Cecil Turner]

Why didn't Fitz just start with Ari and then fill in how Libby knew afterwards?

Speculation: if he read the INR memo and promptly leaked (as has been asserted by some, though not terribly credibly), he has major credibility problems.

[cboldt]

Bartlett also told Fleischer. Not sure when Bartlett found out.

Did you hear someone on AF1 make another reference to Wilson's wife?

Fleischer: Staff cabin, Dan Bartlett, Comm Dir, reading a different document. He said, "I can't believe he or they are saying that the VP sent Amb Wilson to Niger, his wife sent him, she works at CIA. He [Bartlett] said this in front of me [Fleischer/witness].

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

'A group of reporters on the side of the road. I recall I said to these reporters, If you want to know who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there. Tamara Lippert Newsweek, David Gregory and John Dickerson, Time Magazine. '

The more the merrier.

[topsecretk9]

John Dickerson said Ari only walked him up to the point to go to CIA and find out - I don't recall John Dickerson ever saying Fliesher talked about her?

[Ranger]

So, let's see, he learns this on the 7th, but stays quiet until he hears it again on the 11th, then runs out and shouts at a bunch of reporters.

[cboldt]

This seems a very effective way to express the notion that Plame's "covert" status is not at issue in this trial. In reaction to Fleischer saying, "I didn't know she was covert!" Walton, after conference with the attornies, tells the jury ...

In reference to the Witness' testimony about what he read in the newspaper. That testimony is only relevant as it relates to his state of mind was. It has no relevance to this case. I don't know based on what has been presented to me, what her status was. It's totally irrelevant to this case.

Walton is telling the jury that he doesn't know, one way or the other.

[Martin]

Ok so now either Dickerson or Fleischer is lying. I'm feeling more sympathetic to Libby.

Dickerson should be called now to impeach Fleischer.

[Javani]

"Ok so now either Dickerson or Fleischer is lying."

At least the CIA officials who lied, ahem, confabulated had the somewhat good motive of payback for the VPs office forcing Tenet to sign that ridiculous apologia.

Fleischer also said Libby used the name "Plame." I don't doubt they talked of WW-AKA-VW-AKA-VP, but that he used the name "Plame" is suspect.

[Javani]

"I don't know based on what has been presented to me, what her status was."

Wow, Walton said that? That's almost as good as sending the jurors home and telling them not to believe what they read in the papers.

[Dan S]

I found that Walton statement velly interesting too.

And the statement that Libby said "Plame" to Ari.

But back to the Walton statement: "based on what has been presented to me" is a wee bit open to close reading.

He's NOT saying he doesn't know, but he is saying that whatever comprises his definition of "presented to me" is not sufficient for him to know. He may be referring to what is included in the case?

In any case, it IS pretty strong indication that the jury shouldn't assume one way or the other.

[Martin]

Per EW: FLeischer: "If you want to know who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there."

Here's Dickerson on 10/31/2005:

"He [Fleischer] walked reporters, including me, up to the fact, suggesting they look into who sent Wilson, but never used her name or talked about her position. Why not? It certainly would have been helpful for him at the time."

Lots o' wriggle room in there I suppose.

[RichatUF]

...Ari testimony, round 1 from Marcy Wheeler - grimmer than I expected for Libby, since I had guessed the "hush-hush, on the qt" comment...

Doesn't that comment seem to conform with Cooper's public statements viz Rove

and I'm still confused: Grossman, Schmall, Grenier, Martin all have testified that the Plame (Wilson) business was a small detail, gossip-like hearing someone getting to meet with Tom and Penelope.

but Ari did this...

...I recall I said to these reporters, If you want to know who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there. Tamara Lippert Newsweek, David Gregory and John Dickerson, Time Magazine...

language straight from the INR memo-question, could their be another document, like a CIA document, written by Plame (kind of like her talking points) but given to Harlow...could explain the the IG meeting Grenier talked about and "...Dan Bartlett, Comm Dir, reading a different document..."

I remember something (I know) Waas writing about something about a CIA paper, concurrent with INR memo, however, the CIA note generally conformed to the Plame-Wilson version of events. Was supposed to have been briefed at about the time the "16 words meme" got started? (I'l try looking it later)

even more confusion: Why doens't the defense ever clarify when the witness has heard "Plame->CIA employee" then "Plame->Wilson's wife" then "Wilson's wife->CIA employee"?

RichatUF

[TimS]

My guess is that there is still some things that Fitz and Wells have in mind, that together with this testimony paints a picture.

Or in other words, today's testimony plus last week's does not give the whole story that these attorneys intend to present at closing.

This is just the "get it in the record stage" for both sides.

And yes it is a hit on Libby, but before this it was several small hits on Fitz.

The game is on. Until the last out, or "outing."

:)

[Dan S]

I have problems with this:

"J Mr Libby did not use the word nepotism. You believe Mr. Libby told you the name. When you testified before the GJ you pronounced her name two different names, Plamay and Plame? If you had heard it pronounced one way or another you'd have remembered?"

I can only resort to personal experience, but when I mispronounce a name it's because I've seen it written. If I hear it, I know how to pronounce it, bbut may not recognise the connection to the written form if it's unexpected.) My own name fits this category, so I deal with the issue a LOT. When I introduce myself, people either get it right, or ask again. If I had them a card, they look at it, and almost always pronounce it wrong.

It seems really strange to me that Ari came up with two pronounciations at the stage of the GJ testimony if he first heard it spoken. Either someone else was mispronouncing it a lot in his hearing, or he saw it written early on before it locked in... or something else was going on there.

In any case it argues that the name wasn't being bandied about often or it seems to me the pronounciation would have become set.

[clarice]

Fleischer not "absolutely sure" Libby mentioned her name at the lunch.

Fleischer told the grand jury the CIA report mentioned Wilson's name--Is shown report. It Doesn't. (His tesimony to the gj was inexact or erroneous)(Memories)

http://www.roryoconnor.org/blog/?p=214

[Javani]

""J How many times did you meet with the prosecutors.

Fl (something like 8 times)""

Eight?

[RichatUF]

from Ranger...

So, let's see, he learns this on the 7th, but stays quiet until he hears it again on the 11th, then runs out and shouts at a bunch of reporters.

After Joe Wilson's hatrick, after the Novak piece hit the wires, and Ari is in Uganda...wondering if he was walking around with a megaphone...

Ari says: "Oh, sorry, you mustn't have heard me..." [Pulls out megaphone]..."I said if you want to knon who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there."

Press pool looks on stunned-Ari how could you be so stupid

RichatUF

[roanoke]

One way to "spin" the "hush-hush" and "on the QT" part of Ari's testimony is what Ari says himself-that it was about the nepotism.

Who would want to keep that QT?

Well if the issue is nepotism-as the unimpeachable immunity given Ari attests to- then the CIA would want to cover that up and more importantly and with more motivation to-would be your trusty media darling-

Joe Wilson.

Hence who do they claim sent Joe?

Cheney.

So to cover up the nepotism-

Blame Cheney.

To give more validity to Wilson's Media Denouement-

Credit Cheney.

No wonder Cheney is how do you call it?

Pissed.

[Javani]

""but when I mispronounce a name it's because I've seen it written. If I hear it, I know how to pronounce it""

Good point worth repeating.

[Dan S]

But maybe the follow on explains that. I didn't get that far before I remarked.

My point that the name must not have been said much stands though.

[Ranger]

""J How many times did you meet with the prosecutors.

Fl (something like 8 times)""

Eight?

Posted by: Javani | January 29, 2007 at 11:38 AM

Well, he had to get his story right. How many times do you think they sent him back saying: 'will pick up later when your memory has improved.' Meaning, you're not there yet. Try again later.

[Appalled Moderate]

Richat:

Ari plays in a different sandbox than the rest of witnesses. Grossman, et al, probably did see Plame's status as just a small detail, because they saw it as not all that different than stuff they see elsewhere in the governement. Ari, more versed in the way the world views things, saw the potentialities of this as a way to discredit Wilson.

Art's testimony, considered in conjunction with the other testimony, does make the "I forgot" defense seem unlikely, doen't it? And that's true, even if we take Ari's use of the Plame name as embellishment, rather than absolute truth.

Nice to see that Libby apparently was a fan of LA Confidential.

[maryrose]

roanoke:
Absolutely right. Old Joe's motivations are on display for all to see.

[Ranger]

Yes, an interesting question. Is the White House on the syndicated column distribution? Ari's burst to reporters sounds like he read Novak's article and just had to run out and share since it was going into print on monday.

[roanoke]

Javani-

But then Walton goes on to say something to the effect that her status is irrelevant to the case...

Is that how you understand it?

[Dan S]

Eight meetings is suggestive of how important they think his testimony SHOULD be. But why it might be important might have more to do with justifying immunizing him (or getting value for immunizing him, to look at it slightly differently) that with actually ferreting out some nugget they believe he holds that is key to making the golden bracelets for Libby.

[topsecretk9]

via Wizbang

Ari read the CIA summary of the Wilson trip on the plane. Why? He was checking to see if there was anything the could declassify to help tell the story. Rice said the CIA document backed that up, so he was reading it. The report is by a CIA station officer based on the work of Wilson.

Former Nigerian PM quoted in report about Wilson's report that there was no current activities, but in June 1999 Nigerian businessman met with him to insist on a meeting with an Iraqi delegation to talk about "expanding relations," which he knew to mean uranium and yellow cake. That meeting did occur.

Fleischer, "The classified information in this report supports what the President said in the State Of The Union."

At least second instance of this -- if the original liar had not lied --ahem Wilson ahem--we wouldn't be here today. Wonder if the jury is getting this idea too?

[Javani]

Last post from FDL:

"J David Gregory is WH correspondant at NBC news (flashes picture of Gregory). Did you recall at the gaggle when Rice was being peppered by these questions, Gregory was one of the questions."

Oh, the defense flashes a picture? Very important then in their opinion. Did Gregory ask a question about who sent Wilson? That would be big news.

[Dan S]

Maybe this whole trial is a conspiracy to get the real truth out about the 16 words!

:)

[roanoke]

maryrose and tops-

Ya for the life of me I don't know why this trial isn't about-

Wilson lying that Cheney sent him.

That was the more DAMAGING.

But, then I'd be guilty of the belief that somehow life is fair.

[Jane]

I think it is funny that Ari thought maybe Val "Plam-ay" was french. That sounds about right.

I wonder when Ari first decided he had heard her name from Libby? Was it before or after Fitz started looking at him. Power of suggestion and all that.

[Javani]

""Is that how you understand it?""

Underlying message from Walton to jury -- "they're hiding it from me too."

Not good for the prosecution.

[Ranger]

Art's testimony, considered in conjunction with the other testimony, does make the "I forgot" defense seem unlikely, doen't it? And that's true, even if we take Ari's use of the Plame name as embellishment, rather than absolute truth.

Nice to see that Libby apparently was a fan of LA Confidential.

Posted by: Appalled Moderate | January 29, 2007 at 11:45 AM

Still not there yet. Three of the five prosecution witnesses didn't remember themselves until later. Libby didn't deny learning it, he just denied remembering it. Libby is not a press guy, he is a government policy guy. Saying Ari saw the potential and wanted to use it does not mean Libby saw the potential and wanted to use it. My guess is that Libby could even argue that they ignored it because they were already having serious problems with the CIA they wanted to smooth over. That's Martin's testemony at least. Why embarras them further with the junket bit?

[Jane]

Underlying message from Walton to jury

I'm not sure. It didn't come across like that to me - I think the jury could infer that she was classified from those remarks as well as the alternative.

[RichatUF]

from Dan S.

In any case it argues that the name wasn't being bandied about often or it seems to me the pronounciation would have become set....

Or journalists were fishing, or the Wilsons were using various interperations of Val's name as confirmation (a combo of Valerie Elisa Plame Sesler Wilson) as they shopped their story on the DC-NYC party circuit

but it is interesting that Fleisher would use the name Plame, wonder if he has a copy of Who's Who on his bookshelf

RichatUF

[Dan S]

I agree, Jane. And I think the point has been and continues to be that it's not really germaine to this case. Walton makes that point every time something related comes up.

[clarice]

He is reminded he misprounced her name before the gj-and says he often does that when the first time he's learned a name is when it's in writing.

Go figure that out.

[Seixon]

Does anyone know when Fleischer got immunity? I'm asking because if it was any time before October 2005 (quite likely, yes?) then that means that either Larry Johnson is an even worse liar than previously known to mankind, or he got seriously snookered by someone who wanted him to look like a complete moron.

Mr. Johnson claimed a friend of Fleischer told him that Fleischer feared he was going to be indicted. If Fleischer got immunity, that wouldn't even be remotely possible, would it?

[Enlightened]

But...but...but he just said he first heard it when Libby SAID it, not WRITE it?

Or is he suggesting Libby passed him a note during lunch?

[topsecretk9]

I'm trying to catch up, but is Fleischer saying he told David Gregory and John Dikerson about Wilson's wife, but Dickerson has a written account of not being told that by Fleischer - is this not the same situation between Libby and Cooper? Or am I missing something?

[Dan S]

RichatUF,

I suppose it's possible that it might be fishing, but that seems like a poor fishing strategy to me. When a reporter wants confirmation, I would expect him to be sure to say the name right and watch closely for body language (if expecting a "no comment" or obfuscation). Using a mispronounciation might defeat that when the first reaction of the "target" is "who?"

Likewise, based on what we've seen of the level of sophistication of Wilson's fabrications, I'l put deliberate mispronouncing of Val's name beyond him. He might use one or another of the possible names, but I doubt he'd Franglicize Plame.

But his silliness hasn't ceased to amaze me, so...

[clarice]

Seixon, he got it before he testified before the grand jury and he testified there IIRC in Nov of 2004.

More from O'Connor:
"Post 5
When meeting with WH official Dan Bartlett several days after the lunch with Libby on July 7, 2003, Fleischer does not say anything when Bartlett’s remarks about Plame being in the CIA and having sent Wilson to Africa - despite the fact that Libby had told Fleischer that fact several days before. The defense is aggressively going after Fleischer now, in an obvious attempt to undercut the damage his earlier testimony about hearing Plame’s secret identity from Libby on July 7. “Why didn’t you tell him you had heard this before?’ the defense demands. They then quote Fleischer’s grand jury testimony again, to the effect that he simply didn’t think the revelation was so important.

F interpreted Bartlett’s statement as him saying that the CIA was incompetent in the Plame affair. Bartlett also never told him any of the information was classified in any way.

There was a lot of tension between White House and CIA over the ’sixteen words’ issue–Ambassador Wilson’s report was only one of the many problems associated with the controversy. CBS News, for example, reported that the president knew the words were false and put them into the SOTU address, nonetheless… Soon the many small problems began to merge into one huge problem…

Court breaks for a brief recess…"

.

[Dan S]

"He is reminded he misprounced her name before the gj-and says he often does that when the first time he's learned a name is when it's in writing.

Go figure that out."

Hmm, I missed this, I guess. But it does appear to be a non sequitur. If he learned "Plame" from Libby at lunch, he didn't first learn it in writing (unless this really is like junior high girls...)

In any case, when and where did he first see it written then? Novak?

[hit and run]

But...but...but he just said he first heard it when Libby SAID it, not WRITE it?

Or is he suggesting Libby passed him a note during lunch?

Libby dumped a pack of sugar on the table, wrote the name and then blew the sugar off the table by putting an extended index finger to his lips and producing a long "shhhhhhhhhh".

[clarice]

Dan S, Miller has said that the Victoria Flame in her notes may have been a trick she used to get details from someone. That is, someone who might not want to mention Valerie Plame might be asked have you heard about Victoria Flame and being off-guard respond,"You mean Valerie Plame."
Reporters have lots of trciks to get stuff out of unwilling sources.

[roanoke]

Dan-

but I doubt he'd Franglicize Plame.

Huh....I think Wilson might have frenched Plame -just sayin'...

He'd tongue kiss a monkey to get on camera.

[Dan S]

Clarice,

True, I'd forgotten that one from Miller.

But in my defense, that one was so bad she's served time for it! :P

[Enlightened]

Eeeewww. Wilson and frenching - just eeeewwww.

[hit and run]

Or maybe "Plam-AY" was hispanicization what with Penelope Cruz on everyone's mind....

[RichatUF]

from TS9 (via wizbang)...

Ari read the CIA summary of the Wilson trip on the plane. Why? He was checking to see if there was anything the could declassify to help tell the story. Rice said the CIA document backed that up, so he was reading it. The report is by a CIA station officer based on the work of Wilson.

Was this the CIA attachment to the INR memo? The DO debrief at the Wilson home...
I am getting so confused with all this

RichatUF

[maryrose]

Ari can't have it both ways on this. Either he saw it written first and then was able to pronounce it correctly or he heard it and wasn't sure of the pronunciation because everyone knows how Frenchified the Wilsons are.

[Dan S]

Roanoke,

You're H&R in ... disguise? You're as bad as he is.

And Wilson would tongue kiss a moray eel, I'd suspect.

[Javani]

Head On, apply directly to the forehead.

Head On, apply directly to the forehead.

Head On, apply directly to the forehead.

[hit and run]

Roanoke,

You're H&R in ... disguise? You're as bad as he is.

roanoke, I sincerely apologize for that despicable treatment. No one should have to suffer that kind of disparagement.

::grin::

[roanoke]

Dan S-
And Wilson would tongue kiss a moray eel, I'd suspect.

LOL! Great the thread has now gone to the dogs or "creative beastiality" with *our hero* Joe Wison-the star.
After several readings I finally figured out you mean the reporter not Wilson.

Wow I can't keep up.

[PaulL]

Dickerson's denial (that he heard what Ari told him) seems to be a Clintonesque parsing of words: Dickerson says he didn't know her name or her position. That means he could have heard her described as Wilson's wife (but didn't know her name) and that she worked at CIA (but he didn't know her exact title).

Shades of Russert's tortured answers!

[maryrose]

HandR:
Agreed. Nobody provides more LOL moments than you.
Enlightened: I agree about Joe and frenching anything- EEwww

[clarice]

Maybe Gregory told Russert and Mitchell the same thing..Maybe because that is what Fleischer said..Maybe.

Sounds like a capitol wide Alzheimers epidemic.

[roanoke]

hit and run-

I resemble that remark..

Ah it's a compliment.

Javani-

Ya Ari's giving me a headache.

I'm off to hit the gym.

Too much exposure to Liberals effects my blood pressure

I spent too much time at FDL today.

[topsecretk9]

Questions about July press gaggles conducted in Uganda during, where he mentioned the information about Ambassador Wilson's wife. Fleischer doesn't recall if the information was "on background," but it was not a secret. Tamara Lipper (Newsweek) who he (Ari) recalls walked off before the wife sending (Plame) him came up.

So why does Dickerson's account differ from this? Dickerson IIRC said he was not told about the wife - Fitz has commented on Dickerson writing this and yet Ari has said a number of times he told him - about the wife...

[PaulL]

Why did Ari "decline" to meet with Libby's lawyers? On the face of it, it does not look like he is interested in fairness.

Maybe Fitz told Ari (but not in a written order) to not speak to them.

[Javani]

What's very interesting is the Defense is flashing photos of Gregory and Dickerson.

Cueing the jury to remember these two as crucial parts of the puzzle.

[topsecretk9]

--J Another reporter was hearing the same conversatoin.

Dickerson, with his picture up.

J Dickerson worked for whom? Did these reporters… Do you know a reporter named Matt Cooper?

Fl Yessir.

J Did these reporters have telephones?

Fl on the airplane? Yes.

At least a little after 8 in the morning EST both of these reporters knew from you that Wilson's worked at CIA.

J putting War on Wilson up on the screen.--

Yeah, I was wondering this...

[Rick Ballard]

July 7 Novak/Fleischer call via Bloomberg:

The memo, prepared by the State Department on July 7, 2003, informed top administration officials that the wife of ex-diplomat and Bush critic Joseph Wilson was a CIA agent. Seven days later, Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was publicly identified as a CIA operative by syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

On the same day the memo was prepared, White House phone logs show Novak placed a call to White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, according to lawyers familiar with the case and a witness who has testified before the grand jury. Those people say it is not clear whether Fleischer returned the call, and Fleischer has refused to comment.

[topsecretk9]

So am I getting the picture here that both Gregory and Dickerson both got a leak - Dickerson has written he didn't - Gregory side-stepped he wasn't called with a leak (It was told to my face!) , Fitz hasn't spoken to these 2 - Were Gregory and Dickerson protecting Ari Fleisher?

[Dan S]

Rick,

Do we know if Ari saw that memo... or COULD have seen that memo? Or was it internal to DoS at that point?

[vnjagvet]

As of 8 am July 11, Gregory and others in the Press know Wilson's wife works for the CIA from Ari.

[politicaobscura]

I think everyone got this screwed up. This comment is a mistake:

"He is reminded he misprounced her name before the gj-and says he often does that when the first time he's learned a name is when it's in writing.
Go figure that out."

I think folks are taking what Dan S said in a post and attributing some of what he said as a quote from Fleischer. Dan S said the part about the differences between reading and hearing a name NOT Ari, right?

[clarice]

Well Novak said he got confirmation or something from TWO administration officials IIRC-..If one of them was Fleischer how could he have done this before the Libby conversation.
OTOH he may have returned the call and told him after--we'll have to see.

Of course given the mumbo jumbo the press used to identify anonymous sources, he could have meant Harlow who did in fact confirm that to him..

[JM Hanes]

Clarice:

Glad to be back:)

In re: "He is reminded he misprounced her name before the gj-and says he often does that when the first time he's learned a name is when it's in writing."

I think it was defense counsel, not Fleischer, who brought up the possibility of mispronunciation via writing. Per EW:

J Mr Libby did not use the word nepotism. You believe Mr. Libby told you the name. When you testified before the GJ you pronounced her name two different names, Plamay and Plame? If you had heard it pronounced one way or another you'd have remembered?

Fl I didn't pay attention to the name.

J The first newspaper story that came out with her name in it was Novak's column. It had had her name as Plame. If you had read that, it would be natural you might mispronounce. Some might pronounce Plamay and some Plame?

Fl and isn't that why you don't know how it's pronounced. What difference did it make to me what her name was?

J It didn't make any difference to you. That's why you say you think, but you can't be sure about that, can you?

Fl with absolute certainty, no.

Looks like attribution in paragraph 4 needs correction, but I left it as is for quoting.

[clarice]

politicaobscura--No. According to O'Connor that is what ARI said on the stand when asked about his mispronunciation.

[Dan S]

tsk9,

They didn't USE the info, did they? Why would Ari need protection if it went no further? (I mean practically, not legally, if it were classified).

[Javani]

"Fitz hasn't spoken to these 2"

Really? If so that will help the defense's "revealer" narrative, the prosecution taking the "concealer" role.

[vnjagvet]

Top beat me to it. Sorry.

[Ranger]

Now we understand Fitz's lack of awareness of any reporters who knew before 14 July. He never asked them after Ari's testemony. Kind of puts into doubt Fitz's honesty in some of his motions. Did he never ask Ari what reporters he told?

[cboldt]

-- Dan S said the part about the differences between reading and hearing a name NOT Ari, right? --

Wrong. But don't make a mountain of a molehill on this point - by now, and by the time Fleischer testified in February 2004, "Plame" becomes convenient shorthand.

[politicaobscura]

MORE>>>

This is what Dan S wrote:

<<<<<<
I have problems with this:

"J Mr Libby did not use the word nepotism. You believe Mr. Libby told you the name. When you testified before the GJ you pronounced her name two different names, Plamay and Plame? If you had heard it pronounced one way or another you'd have remembered?"
I can only resort to personal experience, but when I mispronounce a name it's because I've seen it written. If I hear it, I know how to pronounce it, bbut may not recognise the connection to the written form if it's unexpected.) My own name fits this category, so I deal with the issue a LOT. When I introduce myself, people either get it right, or ask again. If I had them a card, they look at it, and almost always pronounce it wrong.

It seems really strange to me that Ari came up with two pronounciations at the stage of the GJ testimony if he first heard it spoken. Either someone else was mispronouncing it a lot in his hearing, or he saw it written early on before it locked in... or something else was going on there.

In any case it argues that the name wasn't being bandied about often or it seems to me the pronounciation would have become set.

<<<<<<

Only the bolded section is testimony, the rest is Dan S speaking.....

[clarice]

Indict me--it was defense counsel who asked him about the difference and Ari demurred saying the revelation was not very important to him at the time..(I can't for some reason cut and paste this). See if I now have it right.
http://www.roryoconnor.org/blog/?p=214

[boris]

Behold unbold!

[politicaobscura]

Damn this stupid comment format...

This is what Dan S wrote:

<<<<<<
I have problems with this:

"J Mr Libby did not use the word nepotism. You believe Mr. Libby told you the name. When you testified before the GJ you pronounced her name two different names, Plamay and Plame? If you had heard it pronounced one way or another you'd have remembered?"
I can only resort to personal experience, but when I mispronounce a name it's because I've seen it written. If I hear it, I know how to pronounce it, bbut may not recognise the connection to the written form if it's unexpected.) My own name fits this category, so I deal with the issue a LOT. When I introduce myself, people either get it right, or ask again. If I had them a card, they look at it, and almost always pronounce it wrong.

It seems really strange to me that Ari came up with two pronounciations at the stage of the GJ testimony if he first heard it spoken. Either someone else was mispronouncing it a lot in his hearing, or he saw it written early on before it locked in... or something else was going on there.

In any case it argues that the name wasn't being bandied about often or it seems to me the pronounciation would have become set.

<<<<<<

Only the bolded section is testimony, the rest is Dan S speaking.....

[Rick Ballard]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Enlightened]

Rick - A witness overheard Novak make the call to Fleischer? Hmmm, I would think, no. He probably was in his ofice when he made the call. Unless Armitage was in his office ans said call Ari to be your source? Naw...

Or a witness overheard Ari talking to Novak? So that means Ari did indeed talk to Novak, the only other person besides Armitage that was saying [Plame, operative, CPD] PRIOR to lunch with Libby, where he claims he was told verbally, yet he misprounounced Plam'ay because he does that when he first sees a written name.

So Novak comes on the stand and says, I told Ari [Plame,operative,CPD] at 10:30 am, July 7th registered call on Ari phone log.

Now Ari needs immunity.

[PaulL]

There is WAY TOO MUCH of this cutesie language stuff going on in this whole case.

I didn't get a call - means I was told in person.

I'd never heard of her - means by the name of "Plame," not by "Mrs. Wilson."

I didn't know where she worked - means I didn't know exactly what room she worked in at the CIA.

Et cetera et cetera et cetera. And let's not forget "no antecedent" - the use of "that," and "it" so often without saying precisely what "that" and "it" refer to.

Then Fitz takes these exactly worded statements and extrapolates them into the common sense understanding of them.

Language problems figure throughout this affair.

Elizabeth Loftus must be going crazy, if she's following this, what with every witness having invented memories because of pressure from Fitz and pressure from reading press accounts and thinking "I must have known that then."

[JM Hanes]

I think Rory paraphrases to improve the narrative flow which can be helpful, but not so hot where specifics are concerned. For example he writes out "counter-proliferation division" where the actual use of "CPD" though more obscure is also more significant as a verbatim repeat of the language Armitage used.

[Rick Ballard]

Enlightened,

We don't know if the call was completed - only that Novak calling Fleischer was logged. If the call was completed, Fleischer could well have said only "I'll get back to you."

It would be extraordinarily entertaining if Novak did testify that he asked Fleischer about "Plame" prior to lunch but there isn't any evidence that he did.

Yet.

[Dave in W-S]

Walton's statement that Plame's status is irrelevant was preceded and followed by comments by Fleischer referencing the "outing of a covert officer". Does this give the defense an opening to demand clarification of Plame's status, so that the jury is not poisoned??

From FDL:

Fl I never would have thought this was classified. never in my wildest dreams believed this involved, as I've read since, this involved a covert office.

(Walton's statement here, followed shortly by:)

Fl As I recall it was Amb Joseph Wilson's wife. I was absolutely horrified. I thought I may have played a role in outing, oh my god did I play a role in outing a CIA officer, even though I had no idea that she was classifed or covert,

[Cecil Turner]

Walton makes that point every time something related comes up.

Still, it appears to me to be prejudicial, and it keeps coming up. I think it'd be more fair to discuss it openly, or forbid the Prosecution from bringing it up.

He is reminded he misprounced her name before the gj-and says he often does that when the first time he's learned a name is when it's in writing.

Not sure how definite this was, but it makes a big difference. Along with hearing it on the 7th but not mentioning it until the 11th, it makes Fleischer's version a bit less plausible. He obviously got info from the INR memo (possibly second-hand), but "Plame" isn't written on it, anyway.

If the Defense can compress the timeline down a couple more days, misremembering makes some sense even without another media source. (Though I'm not ready to give up my favorite pet theory just yet!) Any real focus in early June would've been terminal for Libby . . . July 7-10 stuff far less so. Finding out Fleischer had told Cooper and Gregory (Russert's putative subordinate) on the morning of the 11th helped Libby, but overall . . . dunno.

[Dan S]

Here's O'Connor's version of the Plamay incident:

"Back to the Libby lunch — a short conversation about Ambassador Wilson’s wife, “very matter of fact and plain-spoken,” says Fleischer.

Defense asks Fleischer about mispronouncing Plame’s name. Fleischer says he “didn’t pay any attention to her name” at that time. Defense tries to get Fleischer to say he read the name first–and didn’t hear it first from Libby. Fleischer demurs, and says her name “didn’t matter much to me.”

Can he be sure that he heard the name from Libby at the lunch? “Absolute certainty? No,” says Fleischer–a victory for the defense, it would appear…"

[topsecretk9]

--They didn't USE the info, did they?--

They could have called it in to the people who DID use the info - Matt Cooper and Tim Russert/Andrea Mitchell.

You see where this is going - 2 disingenuous reporters have passed this on to 3 (4 Calabresi) potentially disingenuous reporters -

they've got there own little PRIVATE 1x2x4.

[Enlightened]

Re: Plam-ay v Plame

The ONLY way Ari Fleischer would have misprounced her name is by READING it and pronouncing it incorrectly.

He does not have to say that under oath, it is called Deductive Reasoning.

You don't mispronounce a word you just HEARD.

Jeezuz.

[politicaobscura]

JM Hanes, I think you are correct.

I cannot find Ari saying anything about reading vs. hearing pronunciation.

But I did read Dan S. mention in a post, and the lawyer in the case mention it.

The only reason I point it out was because it started to take on a life of its own on the comment thread and I think folks misread Dan S's post as though it was a quote from Ari, when it was not.

If I'm wrong, please post the quotes from Ari where he speaks of the differences of reading vs. hearing.... thanks.

[Seixon]

My bad, Johnson said Hadley, not Fleischer.

[Sue]

Ari specifically names Gregory and Dickerson as reporters he told. Their names don't appear on Fitz's letter of reporters who know. As someone noted elsewhere today, why?

[clarice]

politicaobscura, You were right and I was wrong (just misread it on a very busy day with losts of distractions). I am grateful to you for doing that.

[Appalled Moderate]

Ranger:

I think we are in the strongest part of Fitz's case here -- the idea that Libby had many contacts with people talking about Plame. The ones where Libby is told about Plame are arguably weak. But this is Libby speaking about Plame, and seemingly going out of his way to do so. (This does not look like a casual conversation -- Libby has not previously spoken to Ari, and there is no typical reason he would do so, as the OVP has its own press people.)

This one by Ari indicates that Libby made a special point of mentioning it, and after hearing it from a second source (from bartlett reading the INR memo), he thought it worth mentioning. Though, I will admit, he spends a lot of time in his testimony downplaying the significance of the info.

If this part of Fitz's case is devoted to establishing what was in Libby's mind in July, 2003, Ari has been his most effective witness.

[Dan S]

"

Re: Plam-ay v Plame

The ONLY way Ari Fleischer would have misprounced her name is by READING it and pronouncing it incorrectly.

He does not have to say that under oath, it is called Deductive Reasoning.

You don't mispronounce a word you just HEARD.

Jeezuz.

Posted by: Enlightened | January 29, 2007 at 12:47 PM"

I think this needs qualification, Enlightened. Based on personal experience, people DO mispronounce words they just heard, even words with all English sounds. But it's not commonly the case. And NOT words that are monosyllabic and absent of sounds foreign to English (since this all takes place in English) such as... Plame.