Now-Traditional Plame Open Thread

Ari testimony, 1 , 2, 3 from Marcy Wheeler - grimmer than I expected for Libby, since I had guessed the "hush-hush, on the qt" comment would be a general statement about the Wilson trip, not a specific comment about the wife.

Also, when did Libby find out her name was Valerie "Plame" [which is how Ari said Libby  identified her, although he waffles on cross]?  She was "Wilson" in the INR memo; Novak says he got it from "Who's Who", but he should not have passed that back to Rove or Libby by July 7.

My old stand-by guess - someone got tired or referring to "Wilson's wife" and looked her up themselves.  But if Libby did that prior to July 7, his memory defense has a major problem.  Same point if Libby was told that by someone (no one who has testified has called her "Plame", I don't think, but I welcome advice on this point.)

Well - we can see why the defense wants to paint the picture that Ari is part of a "Protect Karl, Dump Libby" cabal.  And Ari Fleischer is describing an undocumented face to face meeting - he will never be tried for perjury if he is embellishing this story.  Still, this is the better day for Fitzgerald that we had expected.

As to Cathie Martin - obviously, the Usual Suspects will make a big deal out of this, from Ms. Wheeler(Martin IV):

W If you look at talking points before and after there is no mention of Mrs. Wilson.  Is it fair to say that when the Novak article came out, from your personal perspective that was not viewed as a big article.

M It wasn't a huge revelation to me because I KNEW, I knew it was a big deal that he had disclosed it.

Wells sensibly moved on, but Fitzgerald did not come back to that on re-examination, which one might have expected.  Is Fitzgerald asleep at his own trial, or was this some sort of misunderstanding?  Frankly, (I paraphrase) "it wasn't a huge revelation because I knew it was a big deal" is not a phrase that makes a lot of sense to me.

But in a pinch, go to re-write: "It wasn't a huge revelation to me because I knew".  And so she did - she already knew that Ms. Plame was at the CIA.  Ms. Martin then follows with, "I knew that it was a big deal that he had disclosed it". 

OK, how did she know it's a "big deal"?  Does any of her testimony suggest that Harlow, or anyone, had warned her to keep this quiet? 

Or was it a "big deal" that Novak had disclosed it because Novak was not on their target leak list and the wife was not one of their talking points, which meant (here comes the Big Deal!), that some other person or group was leaking their own story about the Wilson trip to the press.  The implication would be that the message coordination had collapsed, and for a pressie, that is a big deal.

I'll stop now - as noted, this is the traditional open thread.  But let me just say, the collapsed message coordination as the Big Deal is not a bad theory - hey, you try spinning this, uhh, stuff into something resembling non-stuff sometime.

UPDATE:  Who ya gonna believe, Ari Fleischer or John Dickerson, then of TIME?  Here is Mr. Fleischer (2):

P Were you in Uganda. Can you tell us if you had an occasion to talk to reporters by the side of the road.

Fl President walking toward second event. Meeting with young children who were going to sing songs. A group of reporters on the side of the road. I recall I said to these reporters, If you want to know who sent Amb Wilson to Niger, it was his wife, she works there. Tamara Lippert Newsweek, David Gregory and John Dickerson, Time Magazine.

Here are two Slate articles by John Dickerson on that very topic:

My inbox was a mess. In the middle of it was an e-mail from Matt Cooper telling me to call him from a land line when I had some privacy. At some time after 1 p.m. his time, I called him. He told me that he had talked to Karl Rove that morning and that Rove had given him the same Wilson takedown I'd been getting in Uganda. But Matt had the one key fact I didn't: Rove had said that Wilson's wife sent him.

But if Ari is accurate, not only did John Dickerson know about the wife, he knew (and called the Washington bureau, but they were all busy) before Cooper talked to Rove.

Well, if Ari was making stuff up, that would have been a helpful detail for Rove, anyway. And as Mr. Dickerson notes, Fitzgerald had made a hash of the timeline in his Jan 26, 2006 letter to the defense the President was in Uganda on July 11, and Uganda is ahead of Washington, time-wise.

And how does this affect Libby's prospects?  Well, if Ari is lying, that probably helps Libby.  Or, if Mr. Dickerson was not fully forthcoming in his public writings and not investigated by Fitzgerald, one might wonder what other reporters are also, ahh, being parsimonious with the truth.

Since this is the age of instant information, John Dickerson has posted his reply at Slate:

I have a different memory. My recollection is that during a presidential trip to Africa in July 2003, Ari and another senior administration official had given me only hints. They told me to go inquire about who sent Wilson to Niger. As far as I can remember—and I am pretty sure I would remember it—neither of them ever told me that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.

Game on.

Comments

[Sue]

So far, Ari seems to hurt Libby. I don't think cross did anything to establish someone else other than Libby told him.

[topsecretk9]

-- As someone noted elsewhere today, why?--

Did Ari testify to this to the GJ - FBI?

I can't keep up.

[politicaobscura]

"Enlightened" you are incorrect.

It makes a BIG difference if Ari admitted to mispronouncing words he reads. He did not make such an admission.

For someone who takes on a name like "Enlightened" you seem anything but. There was a confusion as to what was a quote and what was a poster's opinion. That is now all cleared up, no thanks to your two cents worth.

Jeesuz.

[Ranger]

If this part of Fitz's case is devoted to establishing what was in Libby's mind in July, 2003, Ari has been his most effective witness.

Posted by: Appalled Moderate | January 29, 2007 at 12:51 PM

Which is why I don't understand why he didn't start off with him.

But, if Ari actually said:

Can he be sure that he heard the name from Libby at the lunch? “Absolute certainty? No,”

Then we are just back to where we were after the last three witnesses. The only one that is certain is Grossman, and he had a nice chat with Armitage before he talked to the FBI.

[Sue]

Why do rude people always show up here?

[JM Hanes]

Either way, it's a peculiar mispronunciation, since there's no accent over the e. More to ponder as to context, eh?

[Sue]

That became the second reference I learned, I overheard. I don't recall who was there.

I wonder if this was a slip of the tongue or did he overhear Libby on the phone with someone? Just a thought. Nothing to back it up.

[Rick Ballard]

"Why do rude people always show up here?"

They're promised 72 virgins?

[Dan S]

politicaobscura,

I think my reply reflected my belief that clarice was adding some new quote that I missed. I did find where defense brought up the same point, immediately after I posted, but I haven't seen anything where Ari said something similar.

But I don't find Ari's position on it (aside from, "I can't be positive") terribly compelling under the circumstances. I just don't see how he could get "Plamay" from "Plame" spoken to him. Or from it written, if it never had a... whatchamacallit.. grave! over that terminal "e" AFTER he'd heard it spoken. The only explanation that makes SOME sense to me is he read it first, guessed it was French, then heard it.

[Cecil Turner]

Crud. Above: "Fleischer had told Cooper and Gregory (Russert's putative subordinate)"

Should be: "Fleischer had told Dickerson (who works with Cooper) and Gregory (Russert's putative subordinate)"

As to the "written vs heard," it appears to be a defense question response. FDL:

J The first newspaper story that came out with her name in it was Novak's column. It had had her name as Plame. If you had read that, it would be natural you might mispronounce. Some might pronounce Plamay and some Plame?

Fl and isn't that why you don't know how it's pronounced. What difference did it make to me what her name was?

WizBang:

Defense notes that Fleisher mispronounced Valerie Plame, and asked if that was because he read the name, not heard it. He was wishy-washy in response to that. He thinks he heard is spoken, but isn't sure.

Neither is very definite.

[Appalled Moderate]

Ranger:

My guess is that Libby did not use Plame's name-ay in that 7/7/03 meeting, but he did use the identifier "wilson's wife".

Fitz seems to be following the chronology of his indictment. Plus, I think the Judy Miller conversation came well before the meeting with Ari, and he needs the earlier witnesses to buttress the counts of the indictment relating to Miller.

[sad]

Prehaps the confusion between "Plame" and "Plamay" is because Val was known as "Playmate."

[clarice]

Not very definite at all..

[Martin]

Cleared on redirect Ranger-the only thing Fleischer is not absolutely certain is on the name "Plame" itself. He's absolutely certain Libby told him Wilsons wife worked at CPD in the CIA.

"Absolute certainty" is a weird term, however. They should have asked if he was certain beyond a reasonable doubt.

[JM Hanes]

Appalled:
Not to downplay the Fleischer damage, but per EW, defense confirmed with Fleischer on cross that:

This lunch had been set up once before, set up and postponed. It wasn't set up after Wilson's article. It was set up, he asked you to go to lunch bc he knew you were leaving, you had never had lunch with him. All your meetings on the fringe or outside meetings.

[TexasToast]

Wow.

This must hurt .....

[Sue]

Maybe someone confused Wilson's 2nd wife with the 3rd wife and Ari thought she was French? Another 'just a thought'.

[topsecretk9]

MORE ON FLEISCHER, GREGORY AND DICKERSON [Byron York] Gregory has not publicly discussed whether he was told about Mrs. Wilson by Fleischer. Dickerson has published a different recollection of events, writing last year that a "senior administration official"

spoke to me on background about Wilson and the president's amazing decision to blame the CIA…The official walked me through all the many problems with Wilson's report: His work was sloppy, contradictory, and hadn't been sanctioned by Tenet or any senior person. Some low-level person at the CIA was responsible for the mission. I was told I should go ask the CIA who sent Wilson.
Dickerson also wrote that a short time later, another senior administration official "pointed out a few times that Wilson had been sent by a low-level CIA employee and encouraged me to follow that angle." But in Dickerson's account, White House officials did not tell him that Wilson's wife was involved; Fleischer's testimony is the first such claim.

In any event, Fleischer testified that nobody seemed to care much about his news about Wilson's wife. "The press's reaction was, 'So what,'" Fleischer testified. "It was a big so-what."

01/29 03:36 PM

Yeah, Dickerson doesn't say anything about being told about the wife...Ari says he told him.

[hit and run]

Come on people don't make this more difficult than it obviously is - Libby was trying to keep things hush hush in the Ari conversation. At lunch. With other people around.

Ari is confused because he may not have picked up on it.

Libby didn't say Plame and he didn't say Plam-ay.

He was using the secret White House code language.

He said Ame-Play

So no one else would pick up on the name.

Hush hush!

[Sue]

Why do we think this trial will last 6 weeks? It should be over next week at the rate they are calling witnesses.

[Sue]

H&R,

::grin::

[Javani]

""P You testified that you believed that the name Plame or Plamay was used. What makes you think it was used?

Fl my memory."

That's Fitz' ending on Fleischer. LOL

[topsecretk9]

Also Ari doesn't recall it being on background because it was as he says no big secret.

[Martin]

Well the juror's last question sealed that-Fleischer testified Libby used "Plame" b/c that's what he remembers. Simple enough.

[Dan S]

"He said Ame-Play

So no one else would pick up on the name.

Hush hush!

Posted by: hit and run "

And thus the connection to Aimes? Ames? What's his name.

[Martin]

That wasn't Fitz Javani-that was a question straight from the jury!

[Enlightened]

JM - That is precisely why Ari is mis-remembering if he READ it or HEARD it - That's why the defense was asking him why he did that.

Only an apostrophe over the [e'] would turn Plame to Plam-ay. (Plame')

Plame is a one-sylable word with one long vowel and a silent e. Pretty hard to mispronounce that. That's like mispronouncing Flame right after someone says flame.

Only the WRITTEN addition of an apostrophe over the e makes the name change.

He read it first, he knows it, the defense knows it, and mis-remembering is the name of the game in this trial.

[Martin]

That's gonna leave a mark.

[Dan S]

Yep, misremembering is exactly what this trial is all about.

[JM Hanes]

This is beginning to remind me of my own experience on a jury. We concluded that everybody was lying, and deliberation consisted of trying to decide whose lies to go with.

[politicaobscura]

<<<<<<
P You testified that you believed that the name Plame or Plamay was used. What makes you think it was used?

Fl my memory."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm betting that Dickerson and Gregory will run a truck over Ari's "memory".

[JM Hanes]

Enlightened:

Make that Plamé, as in flambé...

[Dan S]

I guess it is just an accent. I was thinking it would be a backwards one, a grave.

[politicaobscura]

Is there any evidence that a document exists with the " è " instead of an " e "?

[hit and run]

JM Hanés?

Hmmmm

[Dan S]

"And my use of "shiv" is my own word. Fleischer didn't use it." -ew

Gotta watch for these. That was a nasty bit of editorializing in the middle of what was supposed to be transcribing effort.

[JM Hanes]

Flambè? Je crois pas!:)

[Appalled Moderate]

Cynical guess -- "Plame" is what Ari thought would get him immunity. This is why it's being insisted upon. Because its probably a fib, is why Ari is hedging with whether he remembers it or not.

The tale of the meeting, however, feels like it probably is real.

[vnjagvet]

Indictment:

During a conversation with Tim Russert of NBC News on July 10 or 11, 2003, Russert asked LIBBY if LIBBY was aware that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA.

On which date did this conversation actually take place?

Is the reason that Gregory was unimpressed with Ari's attempts to tell him about the fact that Wilson was sent by his CIA wife because he knew already (i.e. it was common knowledge as Mitchell has intimated)? Or because he wanted to play it cool?

If the former, then Libby's version of the conversation with Russert is plausible no matter which of the two dates is correct. If the latter, Libby's version holds up if the Russert conversation took place on the 11th, so long as one can infer that Gregory is an inveterate gossip, and would not keep this bit of information from his bureau chief.

[JM Hanes]

That would be Hänes to you, h&r!

[politicaobscura]

The President visited Uganda on July 11.

[Dan S]

"P You testified that you believed that the name Plame or Plamay was used. What makes you think it was used?

Fl my memory."

Yeah, but his memory doesn't tell him WHICH was used, and have we every heard "plamay" from any other source? I don't see that as a slamdunk for the prosecution by any means. More demonstration of memory problems. Unless he can point to a source for "plamay," that's a pure construction of his own mind... somehow. Maybe he can catch Russert saying Plamay on a tape...

[Dan S]

err, "every" should be "never"

[clarice]

The Game on Plame is Mostly in the Flame..or
Did he say Plame-ay over the saute'?

[Appalled Moderate]

I think h&r would call you "Senahay", Monsieur Hanes

[topsecretk9]

Sue
Not only the letter, pretty sure Fitz said in court Dickerson wrote he wasn't told about the wife.

[Ranger]

Well, this will be bad for Libby until Armitage is on the stand during the defense case, and he is going to have to convince the Jury that he forgot telling Woodward. Then they are going to have to ask themselves why Fitz beleives Armitage really forgot that conversation, but that Libby didn't.

[Sue]

[LONG LONG RESUME with lots of republicans]

OMG! A COS working for a republican administration has a resume with lots of republicans? OMG! Again, OMG!

::sheesh::

[Appalled Moderate]

Ranger:

I tend to agree that jury nullification is probably the best end to this trial, as these charges seem to be a prosecutor abusing his discretion.

But, it does still seem Libby's grand jury testimony was not, um, entirely accurate.

[hit and run]

I think h&r would call you "Senahay", Monsieur Hanes

I, however, would certainly not use Monsieur...

[Ranger]

But, it does still seem Libby's grand jury testimony was not, um, entirely accurate.

Posted by: Appalled Moderate | January 29, 2007 at 01:28 PM

Well, many people's GJ testemonies were not accurate. The question is was it intentionally deceptive? That is a very different thing, as Fitz first four witnesses proved.

[topsecretk9]

Also, didn't Fitz say in a filing or in court Mr. Wilson wasn't known before his op-ed - or something to that effect?

[clarice]

Addington's up--per Wizbang:
"David Addington

Scooter asked if the President have the authority to declasify material? Addington said yes, and there was no grey area, he cited Dept. of the Navy, vs. Egan, which he knew well.

Conversation about CIA. If someone worked at CIA, and someone sent spouse to do work, would there be records at the CIA? Addington told him on the operational side that they couldn't just go use whoever they wanted. They had to get approval. On the analytical side it would be likely that you'd have a letter or contract, and failing that there was probably a paper trail of the payments to a freelancer.

Did Libby give a name about which he was interested? No.

This conversation took place outside the VP's office, behind closed doors, with Libby at one point motioning to Danton to keep his voice down.

Can you date this conversation. After Wilson was on TV (Meet the Press with Tim Russert), but before Reagan naval aircraft carrier trip. He (Addington) wondered in Libby was talking about Wilson, though Libby never mentioned a name."

[Patton]

Sue, the trial will last six weeks because Fitz hasn't called a witness yet that is relevant to any of the counts in the indictment.

This has all been background. Mostly meaningless. they could have stipulated Libby knew about Wilsons wife, now bring on Russert.

[Dan S]

Yeah, she must slip into snark as she gets tired.

The bit about torture was worse.

[Ranger]

I think the key to Wells' close will have to be pointing out how many times people changed their story for Fitz, and how many people he let go back to the GJ a second time even to "correct the record" and how many people he used documentation to "refresh their memories" and point out that all those opportunites were denied Libby.

[Appalled Moderate]

Ranger:

For the record, it appears to me that his testiomony was intentionally deceptive. I think the defense actually supplied a motive for why Libby might lie -- he was concerned on being the fall guy for Rove's presumed crimes.

Now, as there was no real crime, I don't think the charges should be brought, particularly as the condict of others in this matter -- Powell and Armitage -- seems to have been intentionally deceptive as well.

[Dan S]

I agree with that last para, AM, and remain open on the first. I see there is possibility Libby intentionally lied, but haven't seen enough evidence to put it beyond reasonable doubt.

I am entirely unimpressed with the quality of the investigation and prosecution so far.

[Cecil Turner]

Well the juror's last question sealed that-Fleischer testified Libby used "Plame" b/c that's what he remembers. Simple enough.

Yeah, simple. Rhymes with "name." So why'd he later Frenchify it?

Is there any evidence that a document exists with the " è " instead of an " e "?

Don't think so. In fact, I don't think it's in any document until Novak's column. (Which is why the Defense suggested he first read the name there.)

After Wilson was on TV (Meet the Press with Tim Russert), but before Reagan naval aircraft carrier trip.

July 6-12. Not much help there.

[lurker]

Seems that the focus is whether Libby leaked or not.

If Fitz knew Armitage was the original source, when why bother asking questions to these witnesses when Libby used Plame's name or not?

After all, Libby's not charged with leaking her name.

Exactly what did Libby perjure on?

Exactly what did Libby obstruct on?

So far, Fitz has not proved the charges against Libby beyond reasonable doubt.

[Phonres]

Can we ban these guys from something for five hears like the Congressmen who got the Plame subpoenas get banned from serving on committees?

There are alot of names and political guys there.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

This was nicely done by the defense:

---------quote------------
J He'd be perfectly free to call NBC news? And Gregory worked for whom? Washington Bureau?

Fl works out of the WH. Tim Russert was head of Washington Bureau

J Another reporter was hearing the same conversatoin.

Dickerson, with his picture up.

J Dickerson worked for whom? Did these reporters… Do you know a reporter named Matt Cooper?

Fl Yessir.

J Did these reporters have telephones?

Fl on the airplane? Yes.
-----------endquote-----------

It's hard to imagine what would be better for Libby, 1. that Gregory and Dickerson stick to their stories that they didn't know, thus blowing up Fleischer's credibility. Or, 2. They fess up and damage Cooper and Russert's.

[Phonres]

Can we ban these guys from something for five hears like the Congressmen who got the Plame subpoenas get banned from serving on committees?

There are alot of names and political guys there.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

This was nicely done by the defense:

---------quote------------
J He'd be perfectly free to call NBC news? And Gregory worked for whom? Washington Bureau?

Fl works out of the WH. Tim Russert was head of Washington Bureau

J Another reporter was hearing the same conversatoin.

Dickerson, with his picture up.

J Dickerson worked for whom? Did these reporters… Do you know a reporter named Matt Cooper?

Fl Yessir.

J Did these reporters have telephones?

Fl on the airplane? Yes.
-----------endquote-----------

It's hard to imagine what would be better for Libby, 1. that Gregory and Dickerson stick to their stories that they didn't know, thus blowing up Fleischer's credibility. Or, 2. They fess up and damage Cooper and Russert's.

[MJW]

Just to show that Dickerson seemingly denies he ws told by Fleischer about Plame, this is from Dickerson's Where's My Subpoena:

At the end of the two conversations I wrote down in my notebook: "look who sent."

* * *

But Matt had the one key fact I didn't: Rove had said that Wilson's wife sent him.

So, that explained the wink-wink nudge-nudge I was getting about who sent Wilson.

I think it's likely Dickerson will be called in rebuttal to show Fleischer's memory can't be trusted. In particular, it shows Fleischer remembered more occurred than actually did. Perhaps he remembered Libby discussing Plame, when all that was really discussed was Wilson's trip

[Dan S]

OT: latest fauxtography:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001374.html

[clarice]

In the end we may have to analyze whether this is a trial about Libby or one about the media.
I thought the question asked of Cathy Martin by a juror was telling--(in effect)what do you do when the media will not tell your side of the story--that they are reporting lies as truth?

[PaulL]

Plame vs PlamAY. If Novak's text were sent by fax, there could have been a smudge over the e, which Ari took to be an accent.

[clarice]

I can't imagine anyone reading Plame as Plam-ay frankly unless something like that happened.

[Pores]

Maybe it was the trip from Montreal, Woolsey on TV, and someone wnated to know who that was. Montreal might have accented the e?

She was recruited in Paris like some others.

Does the GG work for CSIS? She worked for CBC that costs 1 billion a year, so, ya, probably.

[topsecretk9]

--2. They fess up and damage Cooper and Russert's.--

But then damage themselves?

[Cecil Turner]

For the record, it appears to me that his testiomony was intentionally deceptive.

I find myself less interested in the conclusions as opposed to the rationale. If based solely on timing, I'd submit the timing in Libby's story makes no sense whether he's being truthful or lying. Which seems to indicate he forgot either way . . . which makes it less than compelling as evidence.

Plame vs PlamAY. If Novak's text were sent by fax, there could have been a smudge over the e, which Ari took to be an accent.

Seems a stretch. They were all back in the US when the article came out. (Unless he got an advance copy, but . . .)

[cboldt]

-- they could have stipulated Libby knew about Wilsons wife, now bring on Russert --

LOL!!! Har Har Har!!!

[Dan S]

So, Novak faxes Ari a copy of his preliminary draft asking if he's got it right? Before it goes out the the press rooms? :)

And the fax has a smudge?

Um... possible, not exactly what I'd call probable.

[Appalled Moderate]

Cecil:

Whatever we think, I imagine Libby is most concerned about the conclusions of at least 12 people.

BTW, Addington's testimony is not exactly helpful to Libby either...

[Dan S]

Hmm... looks like it's about Miller time!

(Which translates to Sam time for me.)

[Dan S]

Libby need only be concerned with the conclusion of one stiff-necked person... :)

But 12 would be nicer.

[topsecretk9]

I think the Dickerson - Gregory situation is an issue for Fitz. On the one hand his witness was unequivocal about this point and BTW didn't these 2 factor in Fliesher's belief he outed someone so he sought immunity?

I'm having hard time understanding that and Fitz reiteration of what Dickerson wrote as true - that Ari didn't say anything about the wife and then Fitz witness Ari say's he did.

What's Dickerson going to say? He went out of his way to write he wasn't told anything about the wife in great detail, but then turn around and say - well, come to think of it, maybe he DID say something about the wife.

[MJW]

So far, as I understand it, Addington said the conversation with Libby occurred between July 6 and July 12. Unless it can be shown to have happened prior to July 10, how does that hurt Libby? In fact, it seems to help him, because a reasonable explanation is that he just learned something new, and was checking it out.

[JM Hanes]

I nominate Fleischer for the two most notable lines in the trial so far.

Asked what makes him think Plame's name was used, Ari answers: "My memory." So much for needing to put Libby on the stand in order to mount a memory defense! The Prosecution seems to have it well in hand.

Then there's my personal fav: "Yessir, there was something in the air that spring."

[Cecil Turner]

BTW, Addington's testimony is not exactly helpful to Libby either...

It depends. If Libby were able to produce evidence of a conversation with a reporter on the 6th that discussed Plame, this stuff'd be water under the bridge. He placed those discussions with the VP in late July, but that was never very plausible. But again, it doesn't work with the "lied because he thought he could get away with it" theory, either.

I'm still trying to figure out how hearing it from Cooper (as they seemed to argue in the May 16 '06 hearing) would help him. That'd seem to require Fleischer be wrong and the Addington discussion on the 11th (or, implausibly, Saturday the 12th). However, all these discussions happened over one week, and nobody seems able to get the timeline exact. If he can show he heard about it from a reporter, anywhere in that time frame, he has a reasonable story. (The "surprise" bit also needs some explaining.)

It's hard to factor in Fleischer's statement, because the reporters involved are telling different stories. But we know a bit about Cooper's strategizing with staff over this, and he makes the best story, but it's too late to fit (for Libby). Unless there's something else we're not seeing.

[clarice]

MJW I think they were starting to feel that maybe the CIA was setting them up.

Here were my early thoughts on the trip and since Libby is so much smarter than I , I can only guess what took him so long?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_wilson_gambit.html>The Wilson Gambit

[Appalled Moderate]

Cecil:

what the jury got today was --

1. Libby talked to Ari about Wilson's wife. Kind of highlighted it by using cutsie language in describing how secret it was.

2. Libby called a meeting to find out how one found out about who would send somebody on a trip.

Again, all of this highlights what has always been the strongest part of Fitz's case -- the unbelievability of Libby having forgotten, considering all of the times Libby was involved in something significant about Plame.

I dont think the stuff about the two reporters is really going to help Libby much. Jeepers, two more reporters knew about Plame! But that's only because Libby told Ari!!

[Rick Ballard]

"But that's only because Libby told Ari!!"

Or because Bartlett told Ari or because Dr. Rice told Ari or because Powell told Ari or because...

[MJW]

AM, if the reporters admit Fleischer told them about Plame, it probably won't help much; if they deny it, it helps a lot, as it casts considerable doubt on the accuracy of Fleischer's memory.

[clarice]

Let's see, so far ALL the witnesses said that information was unmemorable and now we have 2 reporters that Ari said he told who apparently do not remember he told them.

Who do we think is up the next 2 days.
I'm live blogging and would like to do some homework tonight.

[topsecretk9]

I dont think the stuff about the two reporters is really going to help Libby much. Jeepers, two more reporters knew about Plame! But that's only because Libby told Ari!!==

Well maybe, but the 2 happened to be intrinsically related to the 2 other reporters noted in the indictment and another who said it was widely known,

[clarice]

Yes--ts--

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

FDL says Miller. (Actually she says "Judy, Judy, Judy" but I surmise that's Miller.)

[topsecretk9]

MJW
Exactly, and Dickerson's account was on his own fruition. I can't see how he's going to be comfortable saying his entire account was very mistaken. - at least without a massive demonstration of not only memory gone wild but the old memory gets better with time like wine.

[cboldt]

Addington

Miller (confirmed)

Russert (next in order on timeline)

Cooper (next in order on timeline)

Rove would be before Cooper, if Rove was to be a government witness.

[MJW]

From Dickerson's article, I'd say either Dickerson was purposely misleading us, or Fleischer didn't mention Wilson's wife. He took notes on the conversation, with the specific note, "look who sent." If Wilson's wife was mentioned, it's hard to believe that wouldn't have been included.

[clarice]

Anyone who wants to help pull together a Miller file, please help--I learned in the middle of a hectic day I was covering tomorrow. I know everything is in the attic here somewhere..

[cboldt]

Libby Trial - David Addington Testimony

Kevin Aylward - Monday, January 29, 2007

The next witness is Judith Miller. The note from Libby to Miller while she was in jail is being discussed. The "Aspen's" letter is the issue, but the prosecution will not be introducing it as an exhibit, which is what the judge wanted to hear. Adjourned...

[Javani]

Dickerson walked a fine line, the same one as Russert's lawyer's statement.

He did not say he did not know about Wilson's wife, she worked at the CIA, and that she "sent" Wilson on the trip. He said he didn't know her name and what her "position" was.

[Syl]

Cecil

If based solely on timing, I'd submit the timing in Libby's story makes no sense whether he's being truthful or lying. Which seems to indicate he forgot either way . . . which makes it less than compelling as evidence.

This is KEY. That the timing is off whether Libby lied or told the truth!

It reeks of confusion. We just don't know WHAT caused the confusion.

It's possible that Libby learned it from a reporter earlier in the week. But NO evidence.

I suspect Russert will admit he doesn't remember at all, but that won't help Libby.

Cooper won't help on the timing either. Too late.

I do remember early in discovery a little throwaway sentence somewhere where Wells says that Libby has since remember another reporter who told him. Nothing more on that. Ever. Anywhere. We don't know who. We don't know timing.

If that little factoid could clear the timing issue, wouldn't Wells have to elaborate in discovery?

[Patton]

"""1. Libby talked to Ari about Wilson's wife. Kind of highlighted it by using cutsie language in describing how secret it was. ""

Never said it was Secret (Classified), said it was Hushs hush, but that could mean the CIA was still working out how to cop to it.

2. Libby called a meeting to find out how one found out about who would send somebody on a trip.

Which would be perfectly logical if he wanted to show that Cheney wasn't responsible.

[clarice]

Syl: do remember early in discovery a little throwaway sentence somewhere where Wells says that Libby has since remember another reporter who told him. Nothing more on that. Ever. Anywhere. We don't know who. We don't know timing.

If that little factoid could clear the timing issue, wouldn't Wells have to elaborate in discovery?

__Unless a lot has changed since I last looked, the defense has no obligation on discovery except to give the name of the witness before they call him and to in pretrial describe generally their defense.

[cboldt]

• * June 23 Reporter Judith Miller
  • Indictment: Libby was critical of the CIA, and disparaged what he termed "selective leaking" by the CIA concerning intelligence matters. In discussing the CIA's handling of Wilson's trip to Niger, Libby informed Miller that Wilson's wife might work at a bureau of the CIA.
  • Libby: Miller is confused
  • Miller: Mr. Libby said the vice president's office had indeed pressed the Pentagon and the State Department for more information about reports that Iraq had renewed efforts to buy uranium. And Mr. Cheney, he said, had asked about the potential ramifications of such a purchase. But he added that the C.I.A. "took it upon itself to try and figure out more" by sending a "clandestine guy" to Niger to investigate. I told Mr. Fitzgerald that I thought "clandestine guy" was a reference to Mr. Wilson - Mr. Libby's first reference to him in my notes. ...
    Soon afterward Mr. Libby raised the subject of Mr. Wilson's wife for the first time. I wrote in my notes, inside parentheses, "Wife works in bureau?" I told Mr. Fitzgerald that I believed this was the first time I had been told that Mr. Wilson's wife might work for the C.I.A. The prosecutor asked me whether the word "bureau" might not mean the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Yes, I told him, normally. But Mr. Libby had been discussing the C.I.A., and therefore my impression was that he had been speaking about a particular bureau within the agency that dealt with the spread of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. As to the question mark, I said I wasn't sure what it meant. Maybe it meant I found the statement interesting. Maybe Mr. Libby was not certain whether Mr. Wilson's wife actually worked there.

• * July 8 Reporter Judith Miller
  
  
  • Indictment: Libby met with Miller and asked that the information he provided on the topic of Wilson be attributed to a "former Hill staffer" rather than to a "senior administration official." He thereafter discussed Wilson's trip and criticized the CIA reporting concerning Wilson's trip. During this discussion, he advised Miller of his belief that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA.
    
  • Libby: Miller is confused
    
  • Miller: My notes contain a phrase inside parentheses: "Wife works at Winpac." Mr. Fitzgerald asked what that meant. Winpac stood for Weapons Intelligence, Non-Proliferation, and Arms Control, the name of a unit within the C.I.A. that, among other things, analyzes the spread of unconventional weapons.
    
    I said I couldn't be certain whether I had known Ms. Plame's identity before this meeting, and I had no clear memory of the context of our conversation that resulted in this notation. But I told the grand jury that I believed that this was the first time I had heard that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for Winpac. In fact, I told the grand jury that when Mr. Libby indicated that Ms. Plame worked for Winpac, I assumed that she worked as an analyst, not as an undercover operative.
    

• * July 12 NYT Reporter Judith Miller
  
  
  • Indictment: Libby spoke by telephone with Judith Miller of the New York Times and discussed Wilson's wife, and that she worked at the CIA.
    
  • Libby: that he had heard that other reporters were saying that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA but he didn't know whether Wilson's wife worked for the CIA was true
    
  • Miller: I told Mr. Fitzgerald I believed that before this call, I might have called others about Mr. Wilson's wife. In my notebook I had written the words "Victoria Wilson" with a box around it, another apparent reference to Ms. Plame, who is also known as Valerie Wilson.
    
    I told Mr. Fitzgerald that I was not sure whether Mr. Libby had used this name or whether I just made a mistake in writing it on my own. Another possibility, I said, is that I gave Mr. Libby the wrong name on purpose to see whether he would correct me and confirm her identity.
    
    I also told the grand jury I thought it was odd that I had written "Wilson" because my memory is that I had heard her referred to only as Plame. Mr. Fitzgerald asked whether this suggested that Mr. Libby had given me the name Wilson. I told him I didn't know and didn't want to guess.
    
  
  

See also, discussions and Motions in limine relating to the admissibility of Miller's incarceration.

• October 30 Libby Motion [Doc 167]
• November 16 Fitzgerald Opposition [Doc 192]
• November 21 Libby Reply [Doc 203]
• December 20 Libby Notice of Supplemental Exhibits [Doc 222]

[clarice]

Danke danke, cboldt.