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February 21, 2007

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Semanticleo

"Semanticleo, that is a standard instruction--just in case you are under some misimpression."

Funny, no one else brought it up with all this
talk about 'reasonable doubt

azaghal

TM, your lead is a fine summary and all, but why are we even discussing such matters at this point. THIS ISN'T NEWS! I guarantee you that within a week of the original story breaking I was telling anyone who would listen--THIS WOMAN DOESN'T QUALIFY AS COVERT FOR PURPOSES OF THE IIPA. It doesn't take insider knowledge to recognize this basic fact--you just look the act up on the good ol' internet, read it, and understand. Why not move beyond picking at this old, old scab and talk about the big picture. For too long people have been dealing with Plamegate as if it were an ordinary legal case--OK, a Special-Counsel-ordinary legal case. It isn't, it never was. Pretending it to be such does no good and obscures real understanding of the issues which are at stake here.

GinPDX

Semanticleo, that is a standard instruction--just in case you are under some misimpression.

Come on now Clarice. Why should pesky things like facts matter at this late juncture?

sbw

Pete: Me too and in my case strongly against the Iraq war.

Well, that doesn't make you a liberal, I'm afraid.

A classical liberal would have objected strongly to a United Nations that refused to address the Iraqi threats and oppression, and encouraged a coalition to do something about it. So, rather than a classical iberal, you must be an American liberal. They really are reactionary socialists insofar as they believe that so long as they are in power, they can exercise the ultimate authority to tell other people the right way to behave -- and when they are out of power, they continue to believe they can exercise that authority.

Chants

OK Jeff and Pete, lets assume for argument's sake that you are correct. Plame's work in Jordan sufficiently qualifies as "serving outside of the United State" as contemplated by the IIPA.

To constitute a violation under the IIPA, the government must be taking affirmative measures to conceal that covert agent's affiliation with the government.

Was her affiliation with the US Government concealed when she traveled to Jordan to inspect the tubes? I seriously doubt it. In fact, it is nearly certain that her affiliation with the US government, and in particular her affiliation with the CIA, was quite overt during her work there.

I find it very hard to believe that overt work overseas is sufficient to meet the definition of a covert agent as contemplated by the IIPA.

Feedup

sbw,

I will only think it and not say it

hit and run

Funny, no one else brought it up with all this
talk about 'reasonable doubt


Yeah, and funny too that no one brought up the fact that every time a witness took the stand, the were sworn in to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth with all this talk about Scooter lying.

Sue

I'm more optimistic than you are.

I'm just joking because I picked consistent losers during the run up to the Super Bowl. I think Rudy will do well, even among conservatives, because the alternative is frightening! A Hill/Bill show is not what conservatives want to live through again.

azaghal

Patrick Fitzgerald, failed human being:

Posted by: Patrick R. Sullivan | February 21, 2007 at 07:58 AM

This is a guy--I mean Fitz--whose only known life outside work is a cat. Hey, and I love cats, but...

Patton

FDL is at it again, still claiming that Plame was covert or at best, Libby didn't show any evidence that she was not covert..as Petes says.

Well let's see:

1. The State Department memo was not classified/caveated (Eyes Only) that it was revealing a covert agent.

2. Grossman testimony never mentioned she being classified, or covert.

3. Grenier testimony was that he never mentioned she was classified or covert.

4. Schmall testimony was he never brought up if she was covert.

5. CIA never told Novak that she was covert.

6. Libby never told Ari she was classified or covert


etc. etc.

The absence of any stanement by any witness that they had knowledge of this is EVIDENCE that she was not covert.

The fact she was associated with the CIA in a memo at the State Department that was not held in Caveated, Eyes Only channels also shows she was covert.

Patton

Chnage: 'was covert'

""was NOT covert"

Patton

Of course to Jeff, Pete, FDL, Johnson etc. are logic is completely backwards.

To them, Cheney is evil, therefore Plame was covert.

Why would an evil guy like Cheney out Plame if she wasn't covert?? Huhh?? Answer that?

Just like the Clintoids CIA, Saddam is evil, so he must have WMD...Its a Slam Dunk the left told us for eighht years...

Pofarmer

So, if Johnson was some super secret covert dude, isn't he putting others in danger by coming in out of the cold?

Just sayin.

hit and run

I think we are all misunderstanding.

Plame was not Covert.

She was Co-vert

Vert, from wikipedia:

Vert

In heraldry, vert is the name of a tincture, more or less the equivalent of the colour "green". It is one of the five dark tinctures (colours). Vert is portrayed in black and white engravings by lines at a 45 degree angle from upper left to lower right, or else is indicated by the use of vt. as an abbreviation.

Though the English term comes from the French word vert (green), in French heraldry this tincture has been referred to as sinople since at least 1415. In Old French, and in the earlier texts, vert meant "green" while sinople was a "red" color named for the mineral paint from which it acquired its name. It is not clear why the meaning of the word changed in French.

The colour vert has been adopted as a symbol of the Muslim faith and is one of the Pan-Arab colors. As a result, many Islamic countries have a national flag containing a green stripe or have a flag with a green background. Vert is also common among the national flags of African countries; green is one of the Pan-African colours.


Pete

Well, that doesn't make you a liberal, I'm afraid.

A classical liberal would have objected strongly to a United Nations that refused to address the Iraqi threats and oppression, and encouraged a coalition to do something about it. So, rather than a classical iberal, you must be an American liberal. They really are reactionary socialists insofar as they believe that so long as they are in power, they can exercise the ultimate authority to tell other people the right way to behave -- and when they are out of power, they continue to believe they can exercise that authority.

I never claimed to be a classical liberal.

Look at the Libertarian position. Their position is:
1) A small govt. is good.
2) Personal liberties are good.
3) The govt better keep out of my private life.
4) They opposed the Iraq war before the war was started.

Rick Ballard

Patton,

OK, I chnaged it. I agree with your point and it goes straight back to the point that I made about the first sentence of the statute: "Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information".

The statute was passed to deal with the situation created by Agee's disclosure of agents. Agee came by his information due to having had "authorized access" and the CIA was appalled to find out that they didn't have legal redress. IIPA rectified that fact but the "leaky" legislators were very careful in drafting to leave themselves a Mack truck loophole through which they could drive at will. If it were not so, Leahey would be a convicted felon rather than just an elected idiot.

Feedup

I though Libertarians oppose all foreign wars (i.e. wars not fought here)

arcanorum

"I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. Find me a "political persuasion" that fits."

Libertarian.

Pofarmer

Maybe Plame was acting covertly but in a way that is not covered by Toensing's outdated baby (IIPA), what laws would protect her security?

You gotta be kidding me. It seems that law was passed in the mid to late 80's. That's practically sparkling new as these things go.

Semanticleo

I know, I Know. Some will scream "OT' and demand I cut and run. But this trial, like most everything else, is about the Iraq debacle.

Both Bush and the Secretary of the Army learned of the abuse of Iraq wounded at
Walter Reed Bldg 18 through the WaPo. Bush has yet to comment publicly. As if he needs more facts to express outrage. Why does this Admin hate the troops?

GWC

If you recall, before Robert Novac published his first article where he mentioned Joe Wilson's wife before anyone else, he called the CIA Public Relations office to verify her employment. They verified it and he published the article. Not to "out" her, (I hate that expression)but to tell his readers how the trip came to be and that it was NOT the Vice Presidentthat ordered the trip. The CIA acted appropiately and so did Novac.

Feedup

Semanticleo,

Stop believing everything you read & stop reading garbage.

Alcibiades

H&R:

---Vert is also common among the national flags of African countries; green is one of the Pan-African colours.---

Which explains very neatly, IMO, why she volunteered Joe to go to Niger!

Another Bob

So, if Johnson was some super secret covert dude, isn't he putting others in danger by coming in out of the cold?

Just sayin.

Posted by: Pofarmer | February 21, 2007 at 08:23 AM

Nobody has done more with four years experience shuffling paper than Scary. Gotta give him that much.

WSA

H.R. 501 is great bill for CIA employees. It is a new form of retirement. The CIA employees can not only use the psychiatric benefets toward the end for medals and money, but can retire early with even more benefits. Most federal employees will be using H.R. 501

The Whistle blower law evolved out of the five year intelligence ban/protection act/ban on serving on committees afer being subpeoned out of these laws- No Fear Legislation is actually old saying from DEA, before they became part of the intelligence community. This will probably make them far less effective.

1 . Federal Employee Protection of Disclosures Act (Introduced in Senate)[S.274.IS]


2 . Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2007 (Introduced in House)[H.R.985.IH]

2 . To repeal the Military Selective Service Act. (Introduced in House)[H.R.424.IH]

Department of Peace and Nonviolence Act (Introduced in House)[H.R.808.IH]

H. R. 501

clarice

Seman, this is a war overwhelmingly voted for by Congress. It is not "Bush's war" it is our war. Now, it is true, a great many of the Copperheads voted for it because of the tide of public opinion and just as quickly looked for a way out which lyin Muchausen provided "Bush Lied", but only the stupidest of people can fall for that.

Semanticleo

Clarice;

Don't use the 'bureacracy did it" meme.

They have been consistently careless about
putting our troops in harm's way. This is
just another example of what they have, and
have not focused on.

windansea

For a while this morning, Wells and Jeffress appeared not to be speaking, but they appear to have kissed and made up while we were up there. When we came in from the break, Libby wasn't there–one of the associates had to go find the Defendant. Then Libby was writing notes all through jury instructions. Oh, and Barbara Comstock apparently went to get ashes for Ash Wednesday sometime between when she arrived this morning and the instructions.

Lots of jurors taking last looks at Libby before they started deliberating. And apparently the juror's conflict with the Baker Botts lawyer wasn't that big a conflict–she appears to remain on the jury. So the final total is 8 woman, 4 men (we gained one of the PhDs from the alternates), two African Americans. Now busy deciding Scooter Libby's fate.

Other Tom

Add Armitage, "In thirty-some years in government, I have never seen a covert operative identified in a memo," or words to that effect.

I didn't realize that Spymaster Larry deletes posts, but even so I'll keep lobbing them in. I did so this morning with a brief disquisition parroting Maguire's analysis of the IIPA statute. Within minutes I had a personal e-mail from Spymaster in my inbox, as often happens, but as I always do I deleted without reading.

Couple of days ago I posted a cut-and-paste of the NYTimes piece actually acknowledging the facts about Cheney's lack of knowledge of the corpulent "Ambassador's" trip. When my data didn't automatically pop up in the Typepad spot, I christened myself "Long Lance," which is how the name followed me here. I imagine that Larry, Spymaster that he is, was able to discern my actual identity.

At bottom, the man is simply a clown. We all knew guys like that as kids; they wanted to be cops, and were thrilled if they could get a ride-along in a cop car. Lots of them end up as private security guards. Larry ended up with a desk job at the Agency for four years, leaving in 1989. So he is now an expert on statutory construction. I bet he wears handcuffs on his belt.

bio mom

Toensing WROTE the statute!! So, who are you going to believe?? To use your own words.

Obviously, if Fitzgerald thought she was covert and had evidence to prove that the violation met the requirements of the statute, he would have charged someone with that. That is why his final closing was reprehensible.

Another Bob

Semanticleo | February 21, 2007 at 08:32 AM

Embrace the suck.

sbw

Libertarianism isn't the answer. They have to come to terms with the fact they live in society and figure out by what mechanism that can be accomplished.

Sue

Jury has the case.

Alcibiades

Besides, libertarians were split on the war initially.

windansea

the firepups are trashing Jeralyn for her contrarian opinion

Fitz is on deck

windansea

good luck Scooter...:)

Rick Ballard

Given that the current Copperhead Congress has proven itself unable to pass even a nonbinding resolution does anyone believe that Abscam Jack Murtha's proposal to kill American troops by cutting funding will make it through? Will Speaker StarKist even allow it to be brought to a vote?

Other Tom

Cleo darling, I don't know if you were ever one of the troops, but trust me: they know exactly who hates them, and who doesn't. And they are extremely fond of this president. And do you really equate the congress with the "bureaucracy?" That's a new one on me. Three-fourths of the congress voted to authorize this war. It takes a special kind of coward to walk away from his own vote by blaming someone else.

Sue

It takes a special kind of coward to walk away from his own vote by blaming someone else.

For political expediency. That is what is really despicable.

clarice

LJ exists to provide quotes to dumb journos pushing the "Bush Lied" meme. They need someone who can purport to be knowledgeable about the CIA.
It's too hard to read the SSCI report, the Robb-Silberman report and the Butler Commission report..

Richard Jansen

Larry Johnson, a supposed terrorism expert, wrote just prior to 9/11 that anyone who thought terrorism was a threat to this country was essentially a fool. That comment totally his credibility on any issue concerning national security

boris

For political expediency

No political revenge. Craven.

A.C. McCloud

Wells' final rejoinder to the jury:

Don't sacrifice Scooter LIbby for how you may feel abotu (sic) war in Iraq or Bush Administration. Treat him the way he deserves to be treated. He worked every day to be NSA for this country. Analyze it fairly. Fight any temptation for your views if you're Democrat whatever party.

Sounds like a preview of coming attractions: guilty = partisan. That would seem to work better towards a pardon than appeal, but I'm certainly not an expert and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite.

Meanwhile, Sandy Berger has exhausted his 100 hours of picking up trash for stealing classified docs pertaining to the GWoT. Madness, indeed.

Alcibiades

--Will Speaker StarKist even allow it to be brought to a vote?--

Definitely. She may not get it to pass, however. Not yet anyway.

I bet a lot of those so called centrist dems took a look at that polling from yesterday that Americans don't want us to lose in Iraq.

topsecretkk9

--the firepups are trashing Jeralyn for her contrarian opinion--

They are still wrapping their head around the concept of innocent until proven guilty and the right that republican defendants are allowed to have a defense lawyer.

windansea

Drudge headlines:

GEFFEN SLAMS HILLARY...

'Everybody in politics lies, but they [the Clintons] do it with such ease, it's troubling'...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clinton Camp to Obama: Cut Ties To Vicious Geffen...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obama team takes 'Lincoln Bedroom' shot at Clintons...

clarice

ts--well, if so, they are leaps and bounds ahead of Fitz who still hasn't wrapped his head around the notion that the WH is not allowed to discredit a lying critic.

Other Tom

Did someone say the jurors were looking at the defense table during instructions? If so, I think that's a good sign. (The Bloodys go down better when you attempt to read tea leaves.)

Semanticleo

"Three-fourths of the congress voted to authorize this war."

Tommy Boy;

Thanks for the summation on the Libby trial.

3/4 of American Public stood behind the ill-fated and poorly vetted AUMF. We are
all complicit in the crime. But we are
not the criminals.

Rick Ballard

"Obama team takes 'Lincoln Bedroom' shot at Clintons... "

The epitaph for her campaign will be "the bag had too much baggage".

As a liar she's just not in the same class as Bubba. She trys, but she doesn't have the real natural talent that Bob Kerrey (and many other people) noticed about Bubba.

PeterUK

"Let's take up a collection and get Victoria some help with her obvious reading disability. "

Apart from the rampant prejudice and Disabilia evidenced in Johnson's ignorant rant what else do you expect from a defrocked closet CIA analyst?

"Plame was never an "overt" employee." Presumably when she applied for a job she ticked the "covert" box rather than the overt,
"Now for your references and previous experience Ms Plame"...."If I told you that,I'd have to kill you".
"Well done Ms X,remember to wear the paper bag when you are in the office".

royf

Leo

Pulitzer Prize winning Dana Priest is married to William Goodfellow. William Goodfellow is the Executive Director of the the Center for International Policy (CIP).

One of the most sophisticated of Fenton’s anti-war projects is the co-mingling of Win Without War and the Center for International Policy (CIP).

Before 9/11, CIP, a Fenton Communications client, mainly acted as Fidel Castro’s greatest “think tank” ally. Much of its million-dollar budget was spent lobbying to end economic sanctions and travel restrictions against Cuba.

Now, it has another mission. Fenton has established a “war room” with CIP called The Iraq Policy Information Program (IPIP). Its main job is getting the anti-Bush foreign policy message out to the media and providing guests for talk shows. A featured speaker of the IPIP is former ambassador Joe Wilson, one of the Bush administration’s most vocal enemies.

Like Moveon.org and Win Without War, the contact for the Iraq Policy Information Program is Fenton Communications. Win Without War also collects tax-deductible donations through CIP.

This is Dana Priests husband but I sure she is impartial, it never fails to amaze me how incestous the leftist/socialist are.

maryrose

cleo;
however the jury comes down I'll be here to comment. It's what we Plamaniacs do. I think Libby is innocent,I hope he is acquited.
I disagree with your presumption that this is about the War in Iraq. Dems want everyone to believe all roads lead to Iraq while failing to realize that Iraq and Afghanistan are the major fronts in the War on Terror.
This is about prosecutorial over-reach and the failure to elect John Kerry in 2004.

Larry

Other Tom, aka Long Lance, ve heff vayz to get zee infomazion vat veb zitez you've been visitink.

windansea

and Fitzvillification begins: (comment at jeralyn Huffpost)

Absolutely. For all the adoration strewn Fitzgerald's way by the "Fitzmas!" bloggers, when push comes to shove, he's a Republican. Literally, he made the most conservative case conceivable. Had he exhibited HALF the zeal that was used against Democrats in the Republicans' prosecution of Clinton's sex life, we would have had serious charges against Libby AND charges against Cheney and Rove. Fitzgerald opted to let them all off the hook because he couldn't guarantee acquitals and we're all the poorer for the fact that serious analysis of what really goes on in the Bush Administration will never be brought to light.

windansea

I haven't seen Scary on TV lately...maybe all those emails I sent quoting his obscene rantings had some effect :)

Tom Maguire

Nobody (not Victoria Toensing, nor Tom Maguire) has shown that Plame was not covert.

The very fact that the CIA referred this case to the DOJ means that they believe that Plame was covert.

What's great is that I read this far and guessed (correctly!) that it was Pete wasting our time.

So is that how it works, Pete - maybe she was covert, and that is proof?

The CIA referral was for an unauthorized disclosure of classified information; that would certainly cover leaks about a classified agent, covert or not.

For symmetry, let's note that no one on the left has proved she was covert. However, Larry Johnson gets quoted on television and I do not. (Go figure.)

Isikoff and Corn detail in "Hubris" the covert work done by Plame in Jordan in 2002. The spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law should apply to the covert work done overseas by Plame within 5 years of being exposed.

The "spirit" of the law included avoidance of "gotcha" prosecutions, although in this case, since Libby had no knowledge of her status, no crime was going to be charged anyway.

but he only manges to embarrass himself and annoy me,..."
I believe his problem is more than skin-deep.

That was itiching at me until I fixed it. I hate SpellCheck, and am waiting for BrainCheck.

I have yet to see Toensing cite a single piece of actual legislative history - as opposed to her own secret legislative history - of the statute, or any existing precedent, to support her interpretation of "service".

Good point, but who is going to tackle the CRS link above and do that?

Or when is a lefty going to do something other than stomp their feet and quote "Hubris" to me? C'mon, I have nailed this down for geologists!

PeterUK

"For most people the fact that the CIA referred the case to the DOJ, and the fact that Ashcroft did not kill the investigation are proof enough that Plame was covert."

Pete,
Little Kim would love you,"I have been arrested,therefore I must be guilty of something".

YFS

I've observed Larry Johnson's charms in the past. The article entitled "Deep Thoughts by Larry Johnson" reveals the nuances in Larry's thinking, to say nothing of his writing.

The guy is as phony, dim-witted and vain as any phony dim-witted vain guy you'll ever meet.

clarice

May I suggest that from the way he dresses to the way he talks, LJ appears to me to be over compensating.

hit and run

I can't help myself

Larry:

Their status is not classified and their relationship with the CIA is openly acknowledged. Valerie Plame was never an "overt" employee. At no time during her entire time at the CIA did she identify herself as a CIA employee. Although she appeared in Who's Who as the wife of Ambassador Wilson there is no reference whatsoever to her having a job at the CIA. Zippo!

Joe:

On the third or fourth date, he [Joe] says, they were in the middle of a "heavy make-out" session when she [Val] said she had something to tell him. She was very conflicted and very nervous, thinking of everything that had gone into getting her to that point, such as money and training.

She was, she explained, undercover in the C.I.A. "It did nothing to dampen my ardor," he says. "My only question was: Is your name really Valerie?"

Larry

Does he drive a red Corvette, Clarice?

Sue

Can someone list any mainstream media that have not yet dropped Larry as a commentator?

sbw,

I'm not sure if the http://counterterrorismblog.org/>Counterterrorism Blog would be considered mainstream, but their contributors are used as experts by mainstream. You will probably recognize their names. I contacted them via email in July 2006 to ask them why Scary was no longer listed as a contributor, and to share my personal emails from him with them, since I regard their site as pretty freaking excellent and was concerned his association with it would drag it down. This was the reply I received:

He exited the CTB on July 6, 2005. Yours is not the first e-mail of its type that I received. Thanks for your email and your interest.

I think that covers it.

Name withheld by me, though original is signed

I was not asked to keep the email confidential, but I felt the name of the person sending it to me should not be released unless I specifically asked him. I didn't, so I deleted the author's name.

clarice

EW in this very piece says Wilson and her friends were her primary sources for her book--Now that should encourage you to just run right out and buy it. From the way Jerelyn defends LJ he is one of her favorite sources, too. GIGO

JGsez

This caught my attention:

Isikoff and Corn detail in "Hubris" the covert work done by Plame in Jordan in 2002. The spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law should apply to the covert work done overseas by Plame within 5 years of being exposed.

Will this lead to another Grand Jury to investigate more covert leaking to reporters? How else would they get details of covert work?

Sue

Larry Johnson is unstable. He is delusional, immature, left behind, left out, and ignored except by the rabid left. He repeats what they want to hear. He is more than willing to lend his credentials, ex-CIA, ex-State, in order to see his name in print, or his face on the screen. In fact, he is an expert on a bin Laden/al Qaeda documentary on the Biography Channel. Telling the audience the dangers they posed pre-9/11. With a straight face. This after his July 01 op-ed telling the audience terrorism was not a threat. I have no use for someone with his ego, fragile though it is. He needs it stroked and the left does that for him just fine right now. They are welcome to him.

Dale in Atlanta

Sue: in this regards, LJ joins such exemplary individuals as Joe Wilson, Richard Clarke, John Murtha, Scott Ritter, Weseley Clark, Tony Zinni, etc., who believed they were Legends in their own Minds, and whose fragile egos, and feelings got hurt, when they were no longer considered relevant, and lost their access to "power"; and thus turned immediately on this Administration, when either thru their own incompetence, or thru their own actions, they betrayed exactly how out of touch, or corrupt, or foolish they really are; and in the end, their attempts to attack, and discredit this Administration reveal in fact, more about them, than it does the President and his Administration.

I could tell you stories about Scott Ritter, from when I was a fellow Marine Intel officer in Corps, that would curl your hair!

Only the Luna Chiroptera Left could embrace, and deify such a collection of losers, liars, fakes, frauds, cheaters, and even traitors! (throw John Kerry in there for good measure!)

sbw

Thnx for answering my question, Sue.

PeterUK

Pete,
"If you say that Plame was not covert, I'd disagree with you."

Since, by your definition, Plame was covert,how do you know she was covert?

vnjagvet

Contrast Larry Johnson, Cleo, Jeff and Pete with Jeralyn Merrit.

Jeralyn is a trial lawyer; by reputation, a good one. She is, of course, defense oriented, since she has done most of her recent work on that side.

Nonetheless, her analytical approach indicates she is a craftsperson, not a hack.

I would be interested in Cleo, jeff and Pete's reaction to her analysis. Not an attack on her person, but on her thinking.

My bet is they cannot persuasively argue against the points she made.

PeterUK

"3/4 of American Public stood behind the ill-fated and poorly vetted AUMF. We are
all complicit in the crime. But we are
not the criminals."

Try telling Fitz that Septic,aiding and abetting.

Charlie (Colorado)

Being covert is only one part of the IIPA. Just because Fitzgerald is not charging anyone with violating IIPA does not prove that Plame was not covert.

Pete, I know you keep ignoring this, but first, the IIPA defines what it means legally to be "covert", so you're wrong by definition. Second, I've been NOC'ed myself, and as I wrote in detail previously, Plame was not acting as if she were currently covert; the CIA wasn't making a positive effort to preserve her cover.

Paddy Lenihan

Most if not all "Plame outing" commentators ignore the fact that Aldrich Ames, who was arrested for treason and espionage in 1994, outed most of the CIA covert operators in Europe and elsewhere. Many of them were killed by our enemies.

It is reasonable to infer that Plame was one of the Ames outees, and that she was brought in from the cold before she was killed. Once outed, always outed.

Plame, if covert, had her overseas assignment ended more than 5 years before Armitage's disclosure of Plames's employer. Virginia Toensing's analysis is spot on. Rather than the Libby trial, several should have been purged from the State Dept and the CIA for reprehensible disloyalty.

Charlie (Colorado)

I though Libertarians oppose all foreign wars (i.e. wars not fought here)

Some libertarians (small 'l') do, some don't. Some Libertarians (the party) don't think isolation from the rest of the world is possible any longer.

hit and run

Dale:
I could tell you stories about Scott Ritter, from when I was a fellow Marine Intel officer in Corps, that would curl your hair!


Oh no you couldn't.

Curl my hair that is. There ain't enough there to do it.

PeterUK

Pete,
If you are a libertarian,the surely you must oppose an unaccountable Special Prosecutor using the resources of the state to crush a single citizen.
You must oppose secret referals,or as they were called before the French Revolution,Lettres de Cachet.

Anthony

Did Plame beleive that she was 'covert'?

Jane

Dale,

I know a weapons inspector who worked with Ritter who says the same thing.

PeterUK

"Deep Thoughts by Larry Johnson" One of the great slim volumes of the twentieth century,remaindered at all good second hand book shops.

YFS

Hi, Sue! Nice to see you're still on Idiot Larry's case. Been tossed from his site lately?

Tom Maguire

Maybe Plame was acting covertly but in a way that is not covered by Toensing's outdated baby (IIPA), what laws would protect her security?

If Cheney, Libby, and maybe Toensing, knew of this situation and took advantage of it, putting people in danger, what does that say about them, and what should be done?

Good point! I think Fitzgerald should investigate violations of the Interplanetray Aliens Protections Act of 2015, as soon as it is passed.

Because Plame was actually a space alien helping to piece together bits of the technology we captured at Roswell - those weapons would have quashed the Iraqi insurgency yesterday, if only they had not outed her.

Or at least, no one has proved that she is *not* a space alien, right?

DES

Section 403r. Special annuity computation rules for certain employees' service abroad???

Truly evil beyond evil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dale in Atlanta

Jane: Hi, yes; real scuzball; has lied about everything about his past!

Claims he "left" the Corps, when he was in fact, given no choice but to resign (pulled a Wesely Clarke there!); as an Active Duty Marine Intel Office, and married, hooked up with a KGB Female agent over in Central Asia (he was so arrogant, that of course, the first female he meets, just happens to "love" him!); has maintained all along, that when he came home, and divorced his wife, that he had a totally "platonic" relationship with the Russian lady, and she had nothing to do with is divorce (BWAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!); was a complete critic of the Clinton Administration/Albright, the UN Weapons Inspections going on in Iraq, and "suddenly"; after he received $250K from an Iraqi, to make a documentary about Saddam/Iraq; he became, literally, overnight, a critic of the Bush Administration!

Went surfing for 15 year olds on the Internet; still not sure how he avoided prosecution for that one; but there were some probably accurate hints, that he was also carrying on a "relationship" with at that time, the person who would've been responsible for filing the charges against him!

Anyway, the day he left the Corps, was a victory for the Corps, and I'm happy he's a hero of the moonbats!

Sue

Been tossed from his site lately?

No. I haven't been there, lately.

Jane

Dale,

I got an earful about the KGB lady and apparently all his fellow inspectors thought he was bad news.

Dale in Atlanta

Jane: Yep, complete and utter fraud and liar! In everything he does!

The only people who can't see it, are his fellow colony of moonbats!

Of course, infidelity, dishonesty, backstabbing, violating your oaths; lack of ethics, morales, and values; sex with children, betraying your country; that's all part of the Liberal Agenda anyhow, so that's why the Left loves him so much; he fits right in!

lurker

What's even funny is that towards the end of the Libby case, Judge Walton admitted that he does not know the status of Plame's identity.

But he did read the CIA referral letter.

PeterUK

The issue of covert or overt is all tosh anyhow,to security services such as the Mukhabarat or the KGB,all Americans are spies.All contacts are monitored,all are are suspect,it's Mafia rules out there.

Pete

Pete,
If you are a libertarian,the surely you must oppose an unaccountable Special Prosecutor using the resources of the state to crush a single citizen.
You must oppose secret referals,or as they were called before the French Revolution,Lettres de Cachet.

First of all let me clarify that I do not agree with everything libertarian. But I do identify with a lot of things they say. I am not a member of any political party.

Being libertarian does not mean that one throw away the rule of the law.

I agree that we give too much power to certain people.

I'd much rather have an independent person investigate this kind of a crime. Ashcroft was not that person, and in this case I am glad that a special prosecutor was appointed.

Since you talk the need to eliminate secrecy, would you support making public all the information from the investigation when Fitzgerald is finally finished? I would support that.

If you want outrage over how a citizen was crushed you would have to find a far better case than Libby who lied his ass off, obstructed the investigation, has several millions dollars raised for his legal fund by his rich buddies, and has a Presidential pardon waiting in the wings.

YFS

If you want outrage over how a citizen was crushed you would have to find a far better case than Libby who lied his ass off, obstructed the investigation, has several millions dollars raised for his legal fund by his rich buddies, and has a Presidential pardon waiting in the wings.

Pete sounds like LJ: bitter, resentful and incapable of intellectual honesty.

Gonna ignore you now, Pete/LJ.

Sue

YFS,

I don't think Pete is Scary. Pete will stick around and argue his pov while Scary hides behind his own firewall, too afraid to enter the debate to begin with, let alone stay and finish it.

PeterUK

"Being libertarian does not mean that one throw away the rule of the law."

Actually sunshine,to extrapolate from the State is not your friend,neither is the law,they are both political constructs.
Now Libby being funded by voluntary means is a damn sight more libertarian than an unaccountable Special Prosecutor using tax dollars expropriated from citizens by threat of force.Digest that for a moment,a Special prosecutor who has no oversight and no boundaries to his remit,that is totalitarian by definition.
Sorry Pete,there isn't a libertarian bone in your body,you bear so far to the sinister you are going anti-clockwise.

GnuCarSmell

Covert agents don't send their doofus husbands out into the MSM to hurl stink bombs at the President. The fact that Plame did proves she was not covert. In any event, she self-outed.

vnjagvet

Cleo, jeff and Pete have not taken me up on my challenge.

I guess name calling is more to their liking.

Charlie (Colorado)

Cleo, jeff and Pete have not taken me up on my challenge.

I guess name calling is more to their liking.

Cleo hasn't taken up mine either.

Sara (Squiggler

Neither party has anyone running that's worth 2 cents....

I am a Romney supporter but would just as easily support Rudy. On the left, there isn't much to say good, but if I had to pick, I'd go with Richardson.

I am a pro-military libertarian.

Neo

I'm truly beginning to doubt Larry Johnson's credentials as a "spook".

His status as a "spook" seem s to fit into the mold of those guys who claim to be a former Green Beret or Navy Seal .. the more they talk about it, the more likely that they never were".

TMF

Even if she was covert, what many of us arent focusing on is another requirement of the statute- which would be proving knowledge of that status.

To be convicted for "outing" a "covert" agent, the defendant would have to be shown to have actual knowledge of the covert status of the agent.

Of course Libby had nothing of the kind. (this assumes arguendo she was "covert" within the meaning of the statute- also highly doubtful)

This is the real reason Fitz didnt give Pete, Jeff, Corn, Johnson and the other dopey lefties the Fitzmas they wanted

clarice

In the Miller appeal, Fitz represented to the court that but for her testimony his inquiry was complete. He also represented to the Court that he had no evidence that Libby knew Plame's status. Nothing Miller testified could have changed that.

PeterUK

"Oh no you couldn't.

Curl my hair that is. There ain't enough there to do it."

Hell,H&R,you Britney Spears?

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Wilson/Plame