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February 13, 2007

Comments

PaulL

I predict ZERO convictions.

clarice

Mr. 70% has spoken.
I said Rove would walk , and I say so will Libby.
As for Hamsher, I predict that anyone who wears a summer dress in the middle of a Washington snow storm will be very cold.

Martin

"The special prosecutor is conducting a very serious investigation," Bush said in an interview on NBC's "Today" show. "He is doing it in a very dignified way, by the way, and we'll see what he says."

chad

Those 3 at FDL are really scary.

Alcibiades

I predict that anyone who wears a summer dress in the middle of a Washington snow storm will be very cold.

LOL Clarice.

MayBee

I predict we will discover Jane Hamsher never watched Perry Mason:

So a very uncomfortable Hannah replied, well, if it were really important, he's sure Scooter would do it. Fitzgerald then wants to know if it's fair to conclude that if Scooter DID agree to go, it would be over something that was very important to him.

It was a Perry Mason moment.

Deagle

Martin,

My guess is that Bush has become the essential lame duck! He seems to be sucking up to the MSM in a major way lately...

Martin

That quote from Bush was October 11, 2005.

Alcibiades

"The special prosecutor is conducting a very serious investigation," Bush said in an interview on NBC's "Today" show. "He is doing it in a very dignified way, by the way, and we'll see what he says."

Well, yes, this is why even Bush's fans long for a slightly more aRticulate, verbally adept replacement. On the other hand, what should he say? That Fitz conducted a lousy proseculation and it was a railroad from the beginning. I'm sure he says such things in private. But public decorum demands that he behave otherwise.

At least, unlike the Clintons, he does not have his people out there impugning everyone's honor and reading their FBI files and killing their cats to intimidate them.

Deagle

Martin,

Oh okay, I guess he was just trying to get on their good side then...

clarice

He was young and niave and did not want to do what Clinton did with the special prosecutor. Martin, you just don't recognize class when you see it.

Ralph L.

Martin, he said "dignified," not "competent."

Ralph L.

Oo, gang tackle.

hit and run

Alcibiades:
On the other hand, what should he say? That Fitz conducted a lousy proseculation and it was a railroad from the beginning. I'm sure he says such things in private. But public decorum demands that he behave otherwise.

No, much easier answer. Bush is a liar, liar pants on fire.

Ask Martin, he'll tell you.

Martin

Considering Bush could have shut this investigation down at any time, I don't know why you guys think Bush was just being diplomatic.

My own theory is that Bush is enjoying seeing Cheney's office get a little comeuppance.

Martin

Considering Bush could have shut this investigation down at any time, I don't know why you guys think Bush was just being diplomatic.

My own theory is that Bush is enjoying seeing Cheney's office get a little comeuppance.

Pofarmer

Can you imagine the MSM response if Bush had shut down the investigation? Get real.

Deagle

Leftroots thought process (reasoning left at home)...Martin.

Ralph L.

The one person I know with advanced BDS has other problems. She followed Russell Crowe to Europe because she believed he was speaking to her telepathically.
Oh, and she used to be conservative and impressed Scalia when she was in law school.

Cecil Turner

Considering Bush could have shut this investigation down at any time, I don't know why you guys think Bush was just being diplomatic.

Considering it was a couple weeks before the indictment/presser, and long before Armitage was revealed as the leaker, noncommittal support is about what you'd expect. Bet ya we don't see another statement like that one out of the White House.

Martin

You're right Pofarmer-it might have driven his approval ratings into the low 30s! But then what's keeping him from just pardoning Libby now?

Face facts-Bush is actually enjoying this!

Ralph L.

Martin, could you be projecting onto Bush?

Martin

"Bet ya we don't see another statement like that one out of the White House."

Ok. What's keeping the White House from joining TM in calling it a "disgrace"?

clarice

Waas Nicht weighs in--apparently forgetting that Fleischer swore in court he never told Pincus and, therefore, was discredited.

http://whateveralready.blogspot.com/:
<http://whateveralready.blogspot.com/>

Libby trial: Finally... Walter Pincus discloses
<http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/12/libby-live-walter-pincus-one/>
who his source was who told him that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, has
allegedly sent him on his mission to Niger, and also suggested that he
was sent because of nepotism: Ari Fleischer.

That explains more why Fleischer only agreed to testify with a grant of
prosecutorial immunity, both before the federal grand jury and trial.
It is surprising that this information did not come up during
Fleischer's own lengthy testimony.

It's interesting as to why neither the defense or prosecution brought
this out when Fleischer testified. It would seem to help the
prosecution's case, one would presume, because Fleischer learned the information
from Libby, thus seeming to corroborate Fleischer's testimony that he
learned about Plame from Libby._________-ARGH

Ralph L.

IIRC, accepting a pardon is also an acknowledgment of guilt. But I'd take one anyway.

topsecretk9

So...TM figured out why Fitz didn't dick around with Gregory or Dickerson...but isn't it hilarious how that turned out...rearranging Byron York-- here are the no context, unchallenged impressions (and set of facts) the juror's consider by Fitzy's STAR witness.

"Did you tell Walter Pincus, during that conversation on July 12th, that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA?" asked defense attorney William Jeffress.

Fleischer - "No sir, I have no recollection of telling that — " Fleischer answered.

"No recollection of telling him that at all? You would remember if it happened?"

Fleischer "Sure I would. I do not," Fleischer said.

So?

"Was the person who told you this on July 12 a government official?" defense attorney William Jeffress asked.

"Yes," said Pincus.

"Was it Mr. Libby?"

"No."

"Who was it?"

"It was Ari Fleischer."

Now, conceivably --if Dickerson was called the jurors would/could wonder if Ari is just like everyone else involved with the case including Libby...confused, muddled memories.

BUT since he won't be called, they have a star immunized witness DIRECTLY refuted. Actually in a more powerful way than Russert and Russert has some pretty wicked memory lapse baggage to boot.

Since they are not supposed to consider her "status" as a factor, and these jurors are searching to understand what exactly is the point of this...there is this glaring example of the star witness adamantly denying something a witness --in living color - refutes. Something Fitz was not able to get in a clean way from his witnesses against Libby.

Beautiful. Shrewd.

hit and run

Oh by the way, looking at Site Meter --CONGRATS TO TOM for reaching the 5,000,000 visitor mark today!

Martin

The White House recently asked 7 U.S. Attorneys for their resignation-the one in Arkansas to be replaced by an aide to Karl Rove.

They have made no such moves against Fitzgerald. I'm telling you-Bush is digging this thing.

sammy small

Lets play a little game called "What the President really means is..." It goes like this.

When the President says:

"He is doing it in a very dignified way, by the way, and we'll see what he says."

What he really means is:

This sh*t-for-brains couldn't find his ass with both hands. What a waste of taxpayers money.

topsecretk9

Get out of my head Clarice...what do you think of my idea?

sammy small

Lets play a little game called "What the President really means is..." It goes like this.

When the President says:

"He is doing it in a very dignified way, by the way, and we'll see what he says."

What the President really means is:

This sh*t-for-brains couldn't find his ass with both hands. What a waste of taxpayers money.

hit and run

Tom is off to the thread races...

JM Hanes

Instapundit linked to this snippet on Fred Thomson's remarks about Fitzgerald. I know the AP coverage, Apuzzo excepted of course, has not been notably accurate, but this piece seems worse than usual by several orders of magnitude:

Fred Thompson contends Libby prosecutor out of control

WASHINGTON Former Tennessee Senator Fred Thompson today criticized Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's handling of the C-I-A leak investigation.

The Republican former lawmaker said the prosecutor had to have known from the start that it was not a crime to disclose Valerie Plame's identity as an agent.

That isn't what Libby is charged with.

The C-I-A asked for a Justice Department inquiry into possible violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, which led to the five-count indictment charging Libby with perjury and obstruction of the F-B-I investigation.

A fundraiser for the defense of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Thompson depicted Fitzgerald as out of control, telling A-B-C News there was "no brake and no check and no balance" on the prosecutor.

Thompson's objections are the same ones Democratic politicians made in the 1990s about independent counsel Kenneth Starr, who spent six years investigating President Clinton and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Now the AP's got me on the (fair use!)redistribution, but if I weren't so lazy, I'd check to see if the little ditty above actually came over the wire that way. If I thought I my emails didn't go straight into Glenn Reynold's spammerator, I might boldly suggest he link to a worthier account of the former Senator's remarks.

Chants

Martin,

Good slam. Ill give you props for that.

But you do understand that Fitz did not report to Bush, or anyone, really. So your rhetorical jig (a good one) fizzles out upon modest scrutiny.

So where do you see this investigation going, Martin? Who is the target? What is the crime?

I'd love to hear it.

Ralph L.

H&R, I think I made 500,000 of those visits trying to get these giant threads to work on dialup.

I'll repeat my last post to you from the previous thread since it was the last one:

I have not yet begun to post off topic!

topsecretk9

Oh and..conversely

Jurors are considering why an immunized witness would adamantly deny something - he has nothing to loose, he could just have said I do not recall a conversation with Mr. Pincus or I talked to Mr. Pincus but have no recollection of talking relaying wife/boondoggle to him but COULD have happened?

And if they on their own conclude Fleisher is probably honest, just doesn't remember it?

The defendant is not denying he talked to reporters or Cheney told him - the defendant sure looks better than even the dude who took immunity or the old crudge on tape who got the ball rolling.

clarice

Sorry, ts I was elsewhere..It is VERY GOOD.

topsecretk9

their-- ***they're

TexasIsHeaven

"Ok. What's keeping the White House from joining TM in calling it a "disgrace"?"

.....neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Martin

Chants- I'll tell you my own crazy theory:

Remember that Libby testified that Cheney told Libby that Bush said it was ok to leak parts of the NIE to Miller.

I don't think Cheney ever talked to Bush; I think Cheney just assumed that authority on his own, and I think Bush is extremely peeved about that.

I think that when Fitzgerald met for over 70 minutes with Bush-it was more a strategy session than an interrogation. Despites Turner's misdirect-Bush call this investigation "dignified" exactly TWO weeks before Libby's indictment.

saki

Thanx to all of you for giving me many hours of enjoyment in reading your posts about this tragic investigation.
Will not mention specific names as I am likely to miss someone inadvertently and feel bad about that.
I cannot imagine that a reasonable set of jurors could possibly not find acquital on all charges based on the testimony presented in this case.
Of course, I also watched every nanosecond of the OJ trial and could not imagine a not guilty verdict there.
So much for my powers of predictionn

Ralph L.

Martin, Bush gave Cheney the authority to declassify in 2001. Of course, he may have regretted that, but I haven't heard he revoked it.

Robham

"The special prosecutor is conducting a very serious investigation," Bush said in an interview on NBC's "Today" show. "He is doing it in a very dignified way, by the way, and we'll see what he says."


Fitz What I do recall saying is that GJ had to get to the truth and that by lying Libby obstructed justice. We didn't say "we turned over every rock, every gift shop on the island."

Bush may believe Fitz is conducting a serious investigation but Fitz certainly does not want Judge Walton to think that he conducted a serious investigation. :)

Martin

ok two weeks and three days. Memories aren't perfect!

topsecretk9

I don't think Cheney ever talked to Bush; I think Cheney just assumed that authority on his own, and I think Bush is extremely peeved about that.

Yeah, that's why he signed an executive order giving Cheney that exact power. Because he was pissed at Cheney.

Next?

Foo Bar

this "investigation" was a disgrace

OK, how about a trade? We turn back the clock to mid 2004, at which point:

1) The investigation shuts down with no indictments

2) The public gets to find out about Rove's interactions with Novak and Cooper before the 2004 presidential election and gets to compare and contrast that with McClellan's statements in fall '03.

(Note: I am not claiming the public necessarily would have found out had it shut down. Hey, this is my hypothetical trade!)

Deal?

Ralph L.

H H Munro, I second that.

cathyf
I don't think Cheney ever talked to Bush; I think Cheney just assumed that authority on his own, and I think Bush is extremely peeved about that.
Bush explicitly extended the right to declassify information in his March 25, 2003 EXECUTIVE ORDER 13292. The extension of classification and declassification authority to the vice president was one of the few things that made 13292 different from its predecessors.

(Oh, and by the way, one thing where 13292 has identical language to its predecessors is where it defines Ms. Plame's employment status as being not allowed to be classified.)

Ralph L.

TScanine, beat ya

Ralph L.

Give it up, Martin, or we'll swamp you in increasing detail.

JM Hanes

What a surprise to find Martin at the head of the line, hoping to get his licks in first. Such an eager little beaver, aren't you?

Ordinarily, I don't bother to reply, but this remark just showed up like it was begging to be posted here. So I give you the Prez, per C-Span on the 12th:

I'm wise enough not to bash the media"
-- or SP's either, one might reasonably infer. I'm sure you can work up the silly inferences all on your own, so I'll just leave it off as a thread wrapper.

topsecretk9

FooBar

Republican were calling for abolishing independent prosecutors LONG before Starr. Democrats wouldn't UNTIL Starr and after Starr did THEN Democrats called for a special prosecutor.

I predict, if a Democrat wins the WH? Congress will correct this frakenstien prosecutor loophole they called for- and will argue vigorously it's unconstitutional and an abuse of power.

Martin

WRONG TS9 and CathyF:

Not so RalphL-Executive Order 13292 is what we're talking about. It give the VP expanded powers to CLASSIFY information, not DECLASSIFY it: Quoting Steve Clemons:

"There is NOTHING HERE that indicates that the Vice President has any embedded authority to be a declassification machine unto himself.

This matter is important because Vice Presdident Cheney slipped into his interview with Brit Hume yesterday his belief that he has the ability to declassify national security information -- and implying that there is an Executive Order that allows him to do it.

Here is the exchange:

'Q Let me ask you another question. Is it your view that a Vice President has the authority to declassify information?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: There is an executive order to that effect.

Q There is.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

Q Have you done it?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I've certainly advocated declassification and participated in declassification decisions. The executive order --

Q You ever done it unilaterally?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't want to get into that. There is an executive order that specifies who has classification authority, and obviously focuses first and foremost on the President, but also includes the Vice President.'

Vice President Cheney is right that he has the ability to classify materials; that is clear from the Executive Order.

It is also clear, however, that the rules and processes for CLASSIFYING national security information are completely different than DECLASSIFYING information. That is evident from reading the structure of the Executive Order itself."

Cheney overstepped his authority and Bush is pissed. I really think its that simple.

Chants

Martin,

That Bush was so upset with Cheney in 2003 he chose him as a running mate in 2004 is mildly interesting, but irrelevant to the question posed to you.

Where do you think this investigation is going? Who is the target? What is the crime?

topsecretk9

RalphL

I've just got your back :-'

Martin

TS9 since you linked it-quote it.

Show me where that EO gives Cheney unilateral declassification authority. Bet you can't.

Martin

Never mind-challenge goes out to cathyF-go ahead-it should be easy since the Declassification section is clearly marked.

topsecretk9

Chants

Yeah, Bush was so "peeved" he'd thought he'd punish Cheney with a second term!

LOL

Martin

TS9- honestly- why did Bush let Cheney lose his Chief of Staff?

topsecretk9

Yipes...look what Maybee found that someone else found (but Maybee found for us)

RUSSERT: It's been suggested by no less than the former governor of New York the other night, that now that the president has decided that he's going to testify before the grand jury, why do it in the Oval Office and why insist that his lawyer be there.?

Go into the grand jury without a lawyer, like every other American citizen, go ahead, ask me any question you want and I'll give you an honest answer.

Ha ha ha ha ha.
Snort.
Ha ha ha.

Posted by: MayBee | February 13, 2007 at 09:46 PM

topsecretk9

--TS9- honestly- why did Bush let Cheney lose his Chief of Staff?--

Because he's not like Clinton who games the system?

Martin

Fair enough. Thx for answering!

And for you Chants-I honestly have no clue where this thing is going. My guess would be its over.

And if I was Bush-I would have pardoned everyone long ago.

Martin

Still waiting CathyF...

Chants

Thank you Martin.

Nothing further.

Ralph L.

From the Ex Order:
PART 3--DECLASSIFICATION AND DOWNGRADING

Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order.

(b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to the national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure.

Ralph L.

So an underling has authority the VP doesn't. Well ain't that a bucket of warm s-it.

Ralph L.

Martin, I said this on the new thread:
IIRC, accepting a pardon has an implied acknowledgment of guilt.

Martin

Keep reading RalphL-if the declassification decision is challenged-the President (exclusively) makes the final call.

So you see that unilateral declassification authority Cheney claims to have would totally short circuit that process...

Sara (Squiggler

Martin, my memory is that Libby? did not take the declassification at face value but queried WH counsel? to be sure.

Ralph L.

Martin, MEGO. And kindly don't forget my space and period.
I'm sure Bush was afraid Cheney might declassify material to benefit Halliburton, and Cheney assumed the authority inherent in pulling W.'s puppet strings.

Sara (Squiggler

STEPHEN SPRUIELL on Libby trial contradictions.

topsecretkk9

Martin

Give it up. Bush doesn't have it out for Cheney. YOU have it out for Cheney. And Haliburton. And Wal Mart. And woman in the State Department who by skin are black but by mind aren't - is what you conjure. (Skin color is more important to you - See Obama)

I think it's official -- you people have surpassed the creepy Clinton Chronicle haters dot com club by like a gyzillion.

JM Hanes

tops,

What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this? He doesn't care about declassification, he's just thrilled to have his own thread going.

Patton

"The special prosecutor is conducting a very serious investigation," Bush said in an interview on NBC's "Today" show. "He is doing it in a very dignified way, by the way, and we'll see what he says."

That was Bushs take in 2005; let see if he has changed his mind when the case lands on his desk. If he lets a conviction stand, it will mean he still believes this. If he pardons Libby, it will mean he agrees with most of us.

So Martin, as long as your standing behind Bush, let's hope you don't run away before the end of the case.

Jane

Rise and Shine everyone! It's gonna be another fabulous day. It's hailing here - between the snowflakes. An odd configuration if you ask me. So wake up! You don't want to miss the best part of the day!

kate

I think I was the one on this board who frequently complained about Bush talking about Fitzgerald's dignified investigation.

Bush baffles me. He tries so hard to be the non-Clinton that he frequently gives openings to his enemies.

I think he believes that if he called Fitz dignified, Fitz would rise to that label and act dignified. It may have saved Rove, but I was alway puzzled by that, better to say nothing.

hit and run

Jane:
You don't want to miss the best part of the day!

Indeed!

Jane

Kate,

I think Bush does that with everyone, and is constantly disappointed. I like that that is his character. But it seems a bit naive given what is going on in this country.

MayBee

I love it that the timestamp for Jane's morning post is 3:42 am. Makes her look truly demented.

Jane

Good Morning H&R. Good to see you up and about!

Jane

Maybee,

I can't for the life of me figure out why we are on CA time here. TM isn't in CA. Maybe it's an ode to Sara and OtherTom.

MayBee

I meant that with love, Miss Jane.

Jane

Oh Maybee, I knew that! Thank you!

kate

Jane, exactly. I recall him taking responsibility for the federal failures in Katrina and the media reported it as "Bush admits failures in Katrina" and continued to let the locals off the hook.

Also, the reluctance to take on the media.

I doubt he will change at this late date, but a little fight would be nice.

Jane

Kate,

I couldn't agree more. If I have one big problem with this President it is his failure to handle the media. Tony Snow is great, but he is too little too late.

hit and run

Jane:
Good Morning H&R. Good to see you up and about!

Indeed. Now, I only came back here to wish you good morning. The Thread Herder in me wishes to move this along to the new thread

::grin::

Dwilkers

I think that when Fitzgerald met for over 70 minutes with Bush-it was more a strategy session than an interrogation.

Praise The Lord and pass the Alcoa!

*I* think Cheney and Elvis are out in the street in a Buick watching my house.

Cromagnon

And maybe TM will actually be right about something regarding the Libby case, since so far all of his convoluted theories have been so far off base... But hell, just through sheer random chance he's bound to right about something one of these days. So don't get discouraged TM, keep your head up and keep plugging away

As for Bush's 'character'... He's a coward, a serial liar, and a petty little man unwilling to face the fact that he has the blood of over 3000 of our nations finest on his hands just so he could keep his dick hard being the 'war leader' by attacking a country that had zero to do with 9/11 and posed zero threat to US national security

Jane

Dwilkers,

I saw them there too. Nice car!

Jane

Cromagnum,

I feel your pain. WEll actually I don't, but it is clear that the moonbats rush in here when they are feel really low about the prospect of frogmarching Karl Rove out of the WH.

How's that going for you?

Pofarmer

I couldn't agree more. If I have one big problem with this President it is his failure to handle the media. Tony Snow is great, but he is too little too late.

How do you "handle" the media. They write what they want, when they want. They disclose national secrets with no consequences. If they don't get the confirmation they need, they just make it up and write the story anyway. Some more reporters need the Judith Miller treatment to get this thing straightened out.

kate

Pofarmer, well, from what I understand the Bush Administration's strategy for dealing with the media was a complicated one referred to as "rollback" where they make the media less relevant and use alternate media to get their message out.

Clearly, this strategy has failed. It has forced the media to become more and more strident and agenda-driven, thereby, causing it to lose more and more credibility, but the media helped destroy support for the war and Bush's approval ratings thus it clearly remains a potent force.

I would have gone for a more aggressive strategy.

Jane

I also think Bush could come out repeatedly and talk to the people about the danger of leaking national security stuff, and the danger that poses to the country to change the spotlight effect a bit.

nittypig

"And maybe TM will actually be right about something regarding the Libby case, since so far all of his convoluted theories have been so far off base..."

Let's see TM has
-Speculated that UGO is Armitage
-Poo pooed the idea that Rove would be 'frogmarched'
-suggested that there would be no conspiracy charges in the indictment.

That's at least three theories that turned out pretty well.

Other Tom

FooBar, I note from Feith's piece in the WaPo today that in fact George Tenet was present for the DoD presentation. (It had been my understanding previously that he had been bypassed.)

I believe you are upset because of what he said ("we believe that there is a much more direct Iraq-al Qaeda connection than CIA is saying"), as opposed to the fact that a policy-maker was making an intelligence presentation. If the DoD had said, "we disagree with CIA about WMD; we don't think Saddam has any," this current conversation wouldn't be going on. Or it would have a very different tenor indeed.

It's almost 7:00 a.m. out here on the Coast. Time to get the first couple of Bloody Marys on board.

Other Tom

Cromgnon, please give us a nice rant about FDR. After all, he attacked Morocco, Italy, France and the Solomon Islands, none of which had anything to do with Pearl Harbor, and none of which posed any threat to the security of the United States. (For good measure, you can throw in the Marshall, Gilbert and Marianas Islands.)

Surely you can impute some bizarre sexual motivation to Mr. Roosevelt.

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Wilson/Plame