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February 16, 2007

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Wilson's a liar

Clarice, so shouldn't it be fairly easy for Wells to convince the jury that Libby may have conflated the conversations he had with reporters, AND Russert might have misremembered his conversation with Libby? That is Reasonable Doubt with a capital R if you ask me.

jwest

Cathy,

We guys on the thread could have come up with the same information on Echenrode, given time……..
And a few hints……
And if we actually did the research……..

And if we weren’t under so much pressure to perform.

clarice

I should think so, Wilson's.

Libby also said he thought his memory about Wlson's wife was refreshed in that period by reporters calling him and asking about it and by other officials Martin and Rove certainly) telling him that reporters were calling w/ news of the connection. Which one of these triggered the recollection seems to me to be irrevelant.His recollection of such inquiries in that period of time is certainly confirmed by the record evidence.

azaghal


MM, thanks for your impressions, but this part--you're joking, right?

I think Wells has a speech impediment: I hear “truff” instead of “truth” and “wiff” instead of “with” and it’s distracting every time I hear it.

clarice

I have some stuff this afternoon--but we could pool our research stuff on Eckenrode and paste it here.

Here's one tidbit..somewhat less compelling than Cathy's

http://www.nooneisabovethelaw.com/

Wilson's a liar

I didn't read Libby's GJ testimony, but did he ever say he was certain he heard about Plame from Russert? Or did he just say "I think so" or "I'm fairly sure"?

I'll bet every person on that jury has had an incident in which he/she remembered saying something to someone and the other person remembers it differently or doesn't remember it at all. Even spouses have this happen all the time. (Certainly parents of teenagers do, as I can attest!!) Wells needs to ask the jury, what would you do if you were facing jail time because your friend/mom/husband/boss didn't remember a conversation the same way you did?

clarice

I have a distinct recollection that Libby told the gj that he remembered hearing about Plame in this period from reporters and from officials telling him about hearing it from reporters.

Remember the record! That's all the jury can consider, not any stuff from outside it.

On this record, we have Libby in the gj saying he told Rove about the Russert call and Rove telling him about Novak call. We also have Novak saying he told Rove and Libby. And that only Rove confirmed it.And we have the FBI summary of Russert saying he couldn't be certain he did not tell Libby in direct contradiction to his trial testimony.

The prosecution does not have record evidence to contradict any of that.

azaghal

cathyf,

Several days ago I posted a link to an FR item. I pointed out that in that FR thread Eckenrode was cited as the investigator who was in charge of the anthrax death of an elderly woman in Connecticut. He was in the Boston area at the time and up to that point was mostly known for health fraud investigations (I still believe there's some story there that I can't track down). In connection with that investigation the commenters on the thread referred to E. as a "coverup artist" -- those were there words, to the best of my recollection. I never read the link and in my post I specifically disclaimed any opinion as its truth or general reliability. That thread mainly had to do with Joe Wilson's high opinion of E. and the fact that E.'s son was at Amherst. You can probably locate by searching on those key words.

My recollection--which is to say, the best of it--is that much of the Hatfill investigation was being done in the DC and Baltomore area, so it sounds like E. wouldn't have been present in the DC area. Anyway, people at his level wouldn't be going to the WH--that's Mueller's job. And yes, Mueller is reported to have had some very rough sledding early on in his relations with this WH.

JM Hanes

Whoa, stop the presses -- way to go, cathyf!

There's always been something hinky around the edges about Eckenrode, but the 2+2 just wasn't coming together.

clarice

Still, the material we've linked over the past few days from Waas and from Hubris and from the Cohen/Isikoff book suggest very strongly that Eckenrode was leaking in this case--this case about a "leak", a leak whose source was known to the govt on the very day it began the "investigation" into its source.

Ralph L.

My boss says "baffroom," it is a little distracting. Sometimes I can't understand his father the first time, and vice versa, but he has the excuse of being half-deaf.
I gather Wells has a normal mid-atlantic accent otherwise, or we would have heard about it. Isn't Wells from NC, or was that the juror?

hit and run

Well, at the time, someone didn't like the Eckenrode appointment.....note the name at the end.

---------------
Plame crazy

An odd tidbit, for confirmed Plamemania buffs only, from the Philadelphia Inquirer this evening:

The FBI agent in charge of investigating whether top Bush administration officials leaked the identity of an undercover CIA agent as political payback against her husband has been named to head the Philadelphia FBI office.

FBI Director Robert Mueller has designated John C. Eckenrode, a 29-year veteran, to be special agent in charge of the Philadelphia division, the agency announced today.

Eckenrode heads the current probe of the disclosure of CIA officer Valerie Plame's identity to conservative syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

. . . Jerri Williams, a spokeswoman for the local FBI office, said it is not unheard of for an agent heading a high-level probe to be transferred before the probe is finished.

"It happens," she said.

. . . Williams said that Eckenrode's new job is a promotion.

Okay, everybody who believes that line about "It happens", raise your hand? Nobody?? That's what I thought.

Anything is possible in a bureaucracy, of course, but it seems more likely to me that -- with interviews having already gone all the way up to the Oval Office and subpoenas out to reporters (which, by law, can only be done as a last step) -- the FBI's investigative work in the Plame grand jury probe is largely done. The only decision(s) now are whether and who to indict, to be made by the prosecutors.

The alternate explanation is that this is an intentional disruption tactic by John Ashcroft via Mueller and the FBI. Presumably, they hope it works better than the attempt to divert special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald into running the U.S. Senate from Illinois ...

Posted by: Swopa on Jul 27, 04 | 12:17 am | Profile

clarice

Eckenrode was on the FBI anthrax team investigating the death of a woman named Lundgren from anthrax.


http://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/infectious_diseases/iceid/2002/pdf/hadler.pdf>Anthrax

whether that gave him access to all the FBI had on the anthrax investigation I can't say, but it would not surprise me.

MikeH

Ralph L: "a premier screening at the RODHAM White House."
GASP! You're right there. I'd better remove myself to sensitivity training!

Ralph L.

Was E'rode kicked upstairs?

the attempt to divert special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald into running the U.S. Senate from Illinois

Talk about power-mad

Sara (Squiggler

In an attempt to quantify in what regard Tim Russert is held by a cross section of the public (and maybe by the jury), I was snooping around the Net and found this article from July 2006 that doesn't go to my initial search but is nonetheless rather a frightening look:

That's according to the latest Pew news consumption survey, which used a three-question quiz to determine if respondents had "high knowledge." They were asked which party has a majority in the U.S. House, who the current U.S. Secretary of State is, and who the current president of Russia is. Here are some of the results, ranked by percentage of high knowledge viewers:

> 27 percent of O'Reilly Factor viewers have a college degree, identical to the national average. 58 percent are age 50+. 42 percent have high knowledge. Only three audiences in the Pew survey scored higher on high knowledge: Regular readers of New Yorker/Atlantic, regular Rush Limbaugh listeners, and regular Weekly Standard/New Republic readers.

> The Daily Show: 37 percent college grads, 23 percent age 50+, 38 percent high knowledge.

> CNN: 28 percent college grads, 43 percent age 50+, 31 percent high knowledge.

> Evening newscasts: 26 percent college grads, 54 percent age 50+, 30 percent high knowledge.

> Larry King's audience: 30 percent college grads, 56 percent age 50+, 30 percent high knowledge.

> FNC: 27 percent college grads, 50 percent age 50+, 28 percent high knowledge.

> CNBC: 30 percent college grads, 38 percent age 50+, 23 percent high knowledge.

> MSNBC: 31 percent college grads, 42 percent age 50+, 21 percent high knowledge.

> Morning news: 26 percent college grads, 44 percent age 50+, 20 percent high knowledge.

mastour

azaghal

Just did a quick search on FR and found this:

"He (Eckenrode) is also involved in the Abramov case, and the investigation into the anthrax vaccination program."

You were also correct about the cover up artist statement. It is a shame they didn't put him on the stand. I find it suspect that his notes just happened to be lost. I know my butt would be in a sling if that happened.

JM Hanes

I was surprised at how much actually seemed to be leaking from the ostensibly squeaky clean SP's office -- and almost none of the info being printed appeared to be coming through the SP's official spokesman. I was also surprised to discover, through the various filings, just how much attention Fitz was paying to reports as they were appearing in the press.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it premeditated strategy versus a hail Mary pass, but when Fitzgerlad put news articles in as evidence of what Libby might have thought they were investigating, I did think it seemed an awfully convenient way to go about providing motive.

JM Hanes

I was surprised at how much actually seemed to be leaking from the ostensibly squeaky clean SP's office -- and almost none of the info being printed appeared to be coming through the SP's official spokesman. I was also surprised to discover, through the various filings, just how much attention Fitz was paying to reports as they were appearing in the press.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it premeditated strategy versus a hail Mary pass, but when Fitzgerlad put news articles in as evidence of what Libby might have thought they were investigating, I did think it seemed an awfully convenient way to go about providing motive.

In any case, Fitzgerald must have known his (modest) office was leaking -- long before Eckenrode's eventual retirement.

Ralph L.

Sara, I think we can assume at least part of the jury had never heard of Tim Russert before the trial.
Surprised CNBC is so low-knowledge. They must be watching the news but not listening.
Surprised MSNBC is so old. Not surprised about the knowledge there.

Ralph L.

JM H, he was expecting the AG to monitor his performance from the leaks!

Sara, I think we can assume at least part of the jury had never heard of Tim Russert. Remember, these are the people who actually watch the news!

Surprising age proportions.
MSNBC knowledge not surprising.

Ralph L.

Damn it, I actually checked to see if the first one was lost. Sneaky typepad.

MaidMarion

"The more you know, the harder it is to keep all the players and chronologies straight. Better to say, look this is simple. The prosecution witnesses are all damaged goods, with faulty reconstructed memories and their own personal reasons for cooperating with the prosecution."

This reminds me, Defense had a timeline showing when various Defense witnesses learned about Wilson's wife and from whom. It also included the date when Libby first learned about her, and I believe it showed when Libby claimed to have told reporters. (From where I was sitting I couldn't see exact details.)

As each witness testified as to when they first heard about the wife, the timeline was updated. Wells never talked about the timeline so presumably he'll resurrect it during closing remarks.

MaidMarion

azaghal,

It sounded like a speech impediment to me...he seems to have problems pronouncing "th".

Ralph L.

The timeline will certainly help in the jury room. Wish I had one.

dorf

I bet Rus remembers that delicious Philly cheese steak he had five years ago (and the one yesterday).

azaghal

I gather Wells has a normal mid-atlantic accent otherwise, or we would have heard about it. Isn't Wells from NC, or was that the juror?

Posted by: Ralph L. | February 16, 2007 at 11:22 AM

Wells is a black man. For all I know he also "axes" people.

Ralph L.

IIRC, after a child reaches a certain age, the "th" dipthong sound cannot be taught.
Kissinger's accent isn't entirely theatrical.

Ralph L.

Dorf, my father remembers meals from decades ago.

Sara (Squiggler

Ralph, I am a political junkie and I don't recall ever watching MTP thru an entire show. I may have stopped for a minute here or there while channel hopping. I am now staying temporarily with two family members before moving across country and one would not be able to answer any of the 3 questions and only registered to vote for the first time in 2004 (she was in her late 30s) because I insisted. My son will tell you that if it isn't on ESPN, he doesn't consider it important. Neither have a clue who Scooter Libby is and don't care anyway.

Now, my son, on a relatively new job, does not have time to go out for breaks or dinner so he eats in his truck and listens to talk radio. A new development. Suddenly he thinks he is an expert because his two major influences are Michael Savage and Mark Levin. He has moved so far right, I need a telescope to see him. He started out a strong supporter of the War on Terror, George Bush, the military, etc. Now, his answer is "drop a Nuke on Iraq and Iran" and be done with it." The Savage influence is exceptionally strong.

Sara (Squiggler

Ralph, I am a political junkie and I don't recall ever watching MTP thru an entire show. I may have stopped for a minute here or there while channel hopping. I am now staying temporarily with two family members before moving across country and one would not be able to answer any of the 3 questions and only registered to vote for the first time in 2004 (she was in her late 30s) because I insisted. My son will tell you that if it isn't on ESPN, he doesn't consider it important. Neither have a clue who Scooter Libby is and don't care anyway.

Now, my son, on a relatively new job, does not have time to go out for breaks or dinner so he eats in his truck and listens to talk radio. A new development. Suddenly he thinks he is an expert because his two major influences are Michael Savage and Mark Levin. He has moved so far right, I need a telescope to see him. He started out a strong supporter of the War on Terror, George Bush, the military, etc. Now, his answer is "drop a Nuke on Iraq and Iran" and be done with it." The Savage influence is exceptionally strong.

azaghal

I guess what I was trying to point out is that the speech characteristics that MM noted are not uncommon among black people--as is the use of "axe" for "ask." Perhaps Wells always speaks that way, perhaps he was subtly reaching reaching out to some of the jurors. I don't know.

JM Hanes

MaidMarion:

"Wells never talked about the timeline so presumably he'll resurrect it during closing remarks."

Smart man. Reminds of an advertisement I still remember from what must be nearly 20 years ago. The voice over went something like: "We know we have an unusual name, so I'm going to repeat it for you three times: Nyquil...Nyquil.../"

When the third time never came, you were left sitting there saying, Nyquil, Nyquil, Nyquil, Nyquil. Wondering what/when Wells would use the chart is a really subtle way of focusing attention on it, isn't it?

Your on site reactions site are so appreciated. I'm not sure I really follow your thinking on the Armitage tape, but that will probably play out in the closings. I am interested that apparently Z[eidenberg] is going to close for Fitz. Did you think he connected with jurors in a way that Fitzgerald didn't? Or does it make sense in terms of who was handling what in the various examinations? I'd be curious to know if you have any thoughts on this.

Ralph L.

Azaghal, I see your point, but as a descendant of evil white Southern slaveholders, I couldn't go there.
My boss is white, BTW. Ebonics derived from the accent of SW England. See Albion's Seed, a great book.

Sara (Squiggler

John Cline, closer:

John Cline has extensive experience in white-collar criminal defense, handling complex trials and appeals in state and federal courts nationwide. His clients have included National Security Council aide Oliver North, computer scientist Wen Ho Lee, and other individuals and entities. Before joining Jones Day in 2004, John was a shareholder at Freedman Boyd Daniels Hollander Goldberg & Cline P.A. in Albuquerque, New Mexico and a partner at Williams & Connolly in Washington, D.C.
JM Hanes

azaghai:

I think it's an affect, not an inflection, that would be hard to incorporate artificially without interrupting the natural cadence your speech. It's quite a different proposition from, say, exaggerating or adopting an accent of one sort or another.

hit and run

daerhT weN

maryrose

Libby has done nothing wrong here. He suffers from a faulty memory. case closed.

tom maguire

Note that this is making things a little too easy on Libby. Libby did not specifically ask Addington about declassifying or releasing the NIE. It was a more general question about the president's power to declassify, via an authorization to release documents (or maybe even information) to someone not authorized to receive classified info. Point being, it's not crystal clear or explicit that Libby was asking Addington about the NIE in particular.

Well, I am well awre of the EW scenario that Libby had already talked about the NIE with Woodward, so he must have wanted authority to declassify something else, which must have been Plame. All we need is evidence.

However, you are on a slippery slope with this construction. Libby was hazy on the date bit is pretty sure it was *before* he leaked the NIE to Miller.

But if it was not the NIE, then it could have been later in the week, after Novak/Russert reminded him of Plame. Or after Cheney suggested the Plame leak on AF2 on the 12th!

But one of those scenarios is a reasonable doubt one.

MaidMarion

JMH,

"Your on site reactions site are so appreciated. I'm not sure I really follow your thinking on the Armitage tape, but that will probably play out in the closings."

I don't know if Wells will get close to any of this in his closing, was just including this commenthere because up until hearing the tape I was assuming Armitage's leak to Woodward was an effort on his part to slam Wilson. After hearing the tape, I've changed my mind.

"Did you think he (Zeidenberg) connected with jurors in a way that Fitzgerald didn't?"

I didn't hear that much from Z by the time I started attending the trial. What little I did see, he was good. Personally, I find Fitz annoying to listen to and he's not appealing to look at...but I readily admit my reaction could be clouded because of my support for Libby. He doesn't look like a lawyer (Wells exudes it) and he always has what I might best describe as an "anxious" or maybe "anticipatory" look on his face, even when nothing is happening. Zeidenberg looks like a lawyer and has a more confident demeanor.

Rick Ballard

"he always has what I might best describe as an "anxious" or maybe "anticipatory" look on his face"

That reflects a deep fear of lightning - even indoors.

Ralph L.

Does Fitz have a Chicago accent? They can be annoying to me.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Good possibility that Wells is letting CLINE speak to this jury? Seems to me he's very willing to share the limelight. It builds a better practice for him.

IN OTHER WORDS? He doesn't have to print business cards, like EVAN THOMAS, that "adds" & Associates, to make his one-man-firm look a wee-bit more "stable." (As in Augean.)

Wells, has ASSOCIATES. And, they can STAR, too.

Does this mean I think the jurors are on automatic pilot? No, I don't.

There seems to be an arrangement, within the media, and the democratic alliance they have formed, that usually leaves out the "little man." The peon. LBJ never included these folk in his tent, either. When he expressed a desire to keep his "enemies," inside the tent.

But we can't predict. Not really any better than just a coin toss, by me. And, Jimmy The Greek is dead.

clarice

Fitz is from NY--His dad was a doorman.When he was on break from Harvard law he subbed as a doorman. He has remarked on that--how the residents just assumed he was just a doorman--and not a budding "Elliott Ness w/ a law degree" sort of thing.

clarice

Fitz is from NY--His dad was a doorman.When he was on break from Harvard law he subbed as a doorman. He has remarked on that--how the residents just assumed he was just a doorman--and not a budding "Elliott Ness w/ a law degree" sort of thing.

clarice

Fitz is from NY--His dad was a doorman.When he was on break from Harvard law he subbed as a doorman. He has remarked on that--how the residents just assumed he was just a doorman--and not a budding "Elliott Ness w/ a law degree" sort of thing.

clarice

Fitz is from NY--His dad was a doorman.When he was on break from Harvard law he subbed as a doorman. He has remarked on that--how the residents just assumed he was just a doorman--and not a budding "Elliott Ness w/ a law degree" sort of thing.

clarice

Fitz is from NY--His dad was a doorman.When he was on break from Harvard law he subbed as a doorman. He has remarked on that--how the residents just assumed he was just a doorman--and not a budding "Elliott Ness w/ a law degree" sort of thing.

clarice

Fitz is from NY--His dad was a doorman.When he was on break from Harvard law he subbed as a doorman. He has remarked on that--how the residents just assumed he was just a doorman--and not a budding "Elliott Ness w/ a law degree" sort of thing.

clarice

The typepad God is offended.

SunnyDay

I will make the sacrifice and dance the dance. :)

clarice

We need a virgin--ahem--SD

PaulL

Clarice,

You're really drilling the point home that Fitz was a doorman.

owl
Republicans voting for the resolution: Castle, Coble, Davis (Tom), Duncan, English (PA), Gilchrest, Inglis (SC), Johnson (IL), Jones (NC), Keller, Kirk, LaTourette, Petri, Ramstad, Upton, Walsh (NY).

Republicans not voting: Boustany (R), Davis (Jo Ann - R), Hastert (R), LoBiondo (R)

The above 21 seem to think the 'Bleed the Troops' Democratic Plan is a winner so I think they deserve their NAMES in lights.

cathyf
Does Fitz have a Chicago accent? They can be annoying to me.
Fitz is from Naw Yawk. Went to Regis.

(Guy is on L platform in Chicago. Train pulls up, conductor steps off. Guy walks up and says, "Hey -- duz dis train go to da loop?" Conductor replies, "No, buddy, it goes beep-beep.")

Ralph L.

I'm disgusted to see my congressman up there (Howard Coble). He usually has better sense and he usually runs unopposed.

azaghal

Azaghal, I see your point, but as a descendant of evil white Southern slaveholders, I couldn't go there.
My boss is white, BTW. Ebonics derived from the accent of SW England. See Albion's Seed, a great book.

Posted by: Ralph L. | February 16, 2007 at 12:24 PM

azaghai:

I think it's an affect, not an inflection, that would be hard to incorporate artificially without interrupting the natural cadence your speech. It's quite a different proposition from, say, exaggerating or adopting an accent of one sort or another.

Posted by: JM Hanes | February 16, 2007 at 12:31 PM

Ralph, I have that book and it is interesting. However, I found it overly circumstantial--he could have made his point, with ample detail, in about half the number of pages. I'm sure MM is a very nice lady and I really didn't mean to tweak her. I was simply bemused to see what I have experienced as a common speech pattern among blacks characterized in all apparent sincerity as a "speech impediment." Nevertheless, it is surprising that a person of Well's educational background would employ that style of speech in a courtroom setting. That's why I speculated that he may have transferred speech patterns from his home or birth community to the courtroom for a reason.

azaghal

Does Fitz have a Chicago accent? They can be annoying to me.

Posted by: Ralph L. | February 16, 2007 at 01:08 PM


Another speech related anecdote. My daughter went to a very fine liberal arts college in Kentucky. Several times she was complimented by other students--native Kentuckians, which my daughter is not--on how well she spoke English. These other students also wanted to know what country she came from. Needless to say my daughter was totally flummoxed at first, considering that her accent is simply Middle American.

OK, another speech related anecdote. Once, driving through the Smokies, I stopped for gas at a gas station that was operated by some black people. I was totally blown away to hear them speaking in a way that, certainly to me, was indistinguishable from that of the white locals--an accent that my daughter's Kentucky friends referred to as "thick hick." I had always been used to blacks referring to people who spoke that way as "crackers," so to hear blacks speaking that way threw me for a loop.

End of speech related anecdotes.

azaghal

clarice, I followed that link and read about the Connecticut anthrax case. I have to say I saw nothing that would indicate any sort of coverup. But then I have no way of knowing where the persons who said that were coming from. My fault for mentioning that in the first place, without having read the link.

tom maguire

JMH with the count involving Miller out of the case I don't think the defense will spend much time on her

Well, she needs to be impeached along with Ari (And Addington) to push back against the idea that Libby was leaking on Tuesday what he heard from Russert on Thursday.

JMH - good point about Libby's missing tapes in the Times diary.

Very interesting, Maid M

Sara (Squiggler

AJ Strata weighs in:
Possible Libby Closing Argument

Enlightened

I still go back to the 1x2x6 theory Fitz is operating off of.

Shouldn't it be closer to this:

1 - Valerie Plame Wilson
X
2 - Joseph Wilson, Larry Johnson
X
6 - Isikoff, Corn, Mitchell, Miller, Matthews, EPIC?

Patrick R. Sullivan

Libby should have JPod deliver the summation.

Jane

Clarice, so shouldn't it be fairly easy for Wells to convince the jury that Libby may have conflated the conversations he had with reporters, AND Russert might have misremembered his conversation with Libby? That is Reasonable Doubt with a capital R if you ask me.

I'm not sure defense can argue this because there was no evidence of that brought out at the trial. Libby didn't say he mixed up two conversations.

bad

Thanks for the link Patrick. Russert can go from rat to hero if Libby is exonerated due to Russerts weasalicity.

clarice

Well, he didn't but I don't suppose that defense is foreclosed from talking about mixing up who told him what--Hannah said Libby did that all the time, Jane.

Ralph L.

Azaghal, JMHanes, from above:
IIRC, after a child reaches a certain age, the "th" dipthong sound cannot be learned.
I'm pretty sure that's his problem.

My great-grandfather, a lawyer, judge, and Speaker of the NC house, from a rich (even after the War) and educated family, used to thicken his accent when he worked in NY to make the Yankees think he was a stupid hick. Alas, he died in debt, but that was because of the Depression. I doubt a black man would want to do that before a white jury, but then, there is rap music.

Ralph L.

Was that pretentious enough for you? I can do better.

Ralph L.

bad, rat is in the eye of the beholder.
And he's an accidental hero, for sure.

BarbaraS

Has it occurred to anyone that all these reporters Libby talked to that we know about were trying to use him as a second confirmation source for their Plame articles? Wouldn't it be a travesty of justice if Libby is sent to prison because reporters need two sources in order to publish?

Other Tom

Golly Ned, I've missed you folks--been drinking outside the house all day. Just caught up on this thread. So much of interest, you'll be relieved to know that I can't comment on it. One exception: I'm with Clarice on the mixed-up conversations argument. I think it's well within the bounds. "Fleischer said X; Pincus said not-X. One of them, under oath, was either lying or simply confused. Might not Libby have been confused?"

Syl

Accents and speech patterns say more about where someone is from (geography) than who they are.

And it covers a lot of ground.

When I worked at IBM (long ago) the lady that had the newsstand in the lobby once asked me what country I was from. I said I'm an American.

She was surprised. Know why? 'cause I always said 'thank you.'

LOL

maryrose

Other Tom:
makes sense to me.

MJW

I'm surprised the defense hasn't made a bigger deal of Eckenrode's lost notes.

Russert, on the stand, claimed it was impossible for him to have mentioned Plame (under any description) to Libby. The report based on notes shows that Russert didn't originally say it was impossible. The prosecution has stipulated that notes said it wasn't impossible. On that alone, the notes are inarguably significant impeachment evidence. But even more, if Russert acknowledged it was possible he mentioned Plame, then he couldn't have said it was impossible he knew about Plame, and perhaps that issue was explored in the notes, but not included in the report. Therefore, the defense was denied perhaps crucial impeachment evidence because of the actions of the government. On that basis, I think the defense should ask that the Russert related counts be dismissed.

Sara (Squiggler

Syl, when I was in high school, we moved from Western Pennsylvania to Buffalo, New York. Nearly everyone commented on my "accent" which I never knew I had. About half asked me if I was from England, the other half thought I was from the "South." After many years of living all over the county, my "accent" became generic, but my husband used to laugh and say that whenever I got on the phone with a PA relative or friend, it took about 10 seconds for me to fall right back into the old speech patterns and the "accent."

hit and run

Clarice:
The typepad God is offended.

Don't worry. I am not offended.

"Say it again..."

Syl

Sara

I've lived in 8 states and I find I do that too when talking on the phone.

BTW, my Joe is from the Pittsburgh area and he sounds different to me. But more stunning to me is when he says stuff like 'This needs fixed.' and I say NO! 'This needs TO BE fixed'. And he growls and says that's the way they say it in his hometown.

I'd simply never heard that construction before.

boris

Impossible certainty vs certainly possible ...

MJW: if Russert acknowledged it was possible he mentioned Plame, then he couldn't have said it was impossible he knew about Plame, and perhaps that issue was explored in the notes, but not included in the report. Therefore, the defense was denied perhaps crucial impeachment evidence

My prediction is that defense will address the issue in a fashion that covers more than one witness testimony. Once Libby, Russert, Martin, and others had established the anchor point for their reconstructed recollections their certainty factor (or impossible factor) increased rather than decreased. In my oft repeated testimony example "I'm certain that's what really happened because IT CAME TO ME IN A DREAM". What has actually been testified to ??? Certainty or Dreaming?

The focus of such testimony should be the ANCHOR POINT not the CERTAINTY.

hit and run

Enlightened:
I still go back to the 1x2x6 theory Fitz is operating off of.

Shouldn't it be closer to this:

1 - Valerie Plame Wilson
X
2 - Joseph Wilson, Larry Johnson
X
6 - Isikoff, Corn, Mitchell, Miller, Matthews, EPIC?


Mine was...

1 - Prosecutor

Thought, "I heard that 2"

Was an attempt to Deep 6 his career-advancing special special prosecutorship.

But yours is much closer to the original construction. Oh well.

hit and run

Other Tom:
I'm with Clarice


Oh, we are so gonna come to blows if you think I'm gonna just roll over and let you have Clarice. I'm with Clarice.

azredneck

Clarice: I am glad that u finally received some response from OPR. I remain deeply disappointed that my senator did not even feel compelled to tell Justice that he was even watching!
You are my heroine--and you're not the oldest of watchers here!!!

MJW

Boris, my problem is that the defense, while knowing for certain the notes contained some impeachment evidence to Russert's claim of impossibility, can never know what more the notes might have provided. Furthermore, the defense was denied the most effective use of the notes: cross-examining Russert. Instead, they had to settle for a stipulation which didn't even directly mention the notes, only the report prepared from it. If the government loses evidence, the government should pay a price, not the defendant.

hit and run

Sara:
that whenever I got on the phone with a PA relative or friend, it took about 10 seconds for me to fall right back into the old speech patterns and the "accent."

Can I get and Amen.

I used to work at a golf course in East Texas. And my accent got so thick hanging around those hicks, it was hard for my family to take. Oh and I LOVED those hicks. Salt of the earth hicks of the first order.

And when we lived in Denver - a place where there was little discernable accent - like the melting pot of all accents until none of them were really heard (if Charlie reads this, I would like his opinion) - my wife used to call to friends in Texas, and immediately start talking Texan. And then get off the phone and immediately drop the accent.

clarice

azredneck, I've posted that several times. I got the response on Nov 26, 2006.

Walter

HnR,

You get the first comment from my cell phone.

&quite possibly my first "LOL".*

I finally get 1x2x6 in a visceral sense.


*You're lucky you don't owe me a new phone.

hit and run

Walter, I will personally give you 5 new phones if you come here to collect.

MayBee

If the government loses evidence, the government should pay a price, not the defendant.

I agree, but I also think there is the potential that the missing notes does not hurt the defense.
We saw Bond testify from the 302s that Libby 'adamantly denied' something, only to have the notes say that he 'didn't recall' something. That helped the defense.
We have also seen the prosecution team constructing questions like, "You don't recall, but can you rule it out?". Libby was able to recognize that as a trap.

What we don't know is if Eckenrode did a similar thing to Russert. As nice as it would be to find those notes and have them impeach Russert, it would not be nice to find those notes and see that Russert was put through the verbal habitrail that Libby was.

walter

Thanks. I'll be out to collect when this one bites the dust.

(It's not so bad for typing--it has a qwerty keyboard. It has wifi & bluetooth & Edge for the internet. But reading JoM comments is a real bear on a Qvga screen. & I figure only ~10,000 refreshes per month on my subscription at 400-500 Kb per.)

Ralph L.

Azaghal, I agree Albion's Seed needed a better editor. An elderly friend from Eastern NC went to nursing school in Phillie and they asked her what her native tongue was. Her accent was strong enough to walk, what she used to say about coffee.

My older sister moved so often (Navy junior) growing up that she tends to pick up other people's accents in conversation.

hit and run

Two words: planned obselescence

Sara (Squiggler

Syl, does your "close to Pittsburgh" hubby say Worshington for Washington, ungion for onion, gum band for rubber band, and pitch it for throw it in the trash? Those are a few things I've been called on over the years. The most noticeable speech pattern rather than accent is going up at the end of every sentence the way one might if asking a question. This trait caused me lots of trouble and I worked hard to fix it because, although typical in Western PA, others take it that you are questioning everything they say.

Sara (Squiggler

Ungion should read "ungyon"

MJW

MayBee, I could be wrong, but if Eckenrode erred in how his report reflected his notes on Russert, I suspect he minimized rather that exaggerated Russert's uncertainty.

verner

MJW:"MayBee, I could be wrong, but if Eckenrode erred in how his report reflected his notes on Russert, I suspect he minimized rather that exaggerated Russert's uncertainty."

And let's remember something NJW. This is a criminal case that has nothing to do with DNA, or blood splatters, or ATM reciepts. The ONLY thing that has been brought into evidence are WORDS--not written words, but SPOKEN words. Libby didn't even have notes.

And you mean to tell me that the earliest account of what Russert remembered to the FBI gets lost, and his later testimony contradicts it--Hey, tell me why HE isn't on trial. How is what Libby is accused of any different.

verner

And another thing--I wish somebody would explain to me why the judge isn't really really unhappy that the prosecution can not produce such a vital piece of evidence.

It looks like the gov't is trying to obstruct justice.

dft

Five year law ammendment:


SEC. 308. INCREASE IN PENALTIES FOR DISCLOSURE OF UNDERCOVER INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS AND AGENTS.

(a) Disclosure of Agent After Access to Information Identifying Agent- Subsection (a) of section 601 of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 421) is amended by striking `ten years' and inserting `15 years'.

(b) Disclosure of Agent After Access to Classified Information- Subsection (b) of such section is amended by striking `five years' and inserting `ten years'.

SEC. 309. RETENTION AND USE OF AMOUNTS PAID AS DEBTS TO ELEMENTS OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY.

(a) In General- Title XI of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 442 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following new section:

`RETENTION AND USE OF AMOUNTS PAID AS DEBTS TO ELEMENTS OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY

`Sec. 1103. (a) Authority To Retain Amounts Paid- Notwithstanding section 3302 of title 31, United States Code, or any other provision of law, the head of an element of the intelligence community may retain amounts paid or reimbursed to the United States, including amounts paid by an employee of the Federal Government from personal funds, for repayment of a debt owed to the element of the intelligence community.

Jeff

However, you are on a slippery slope with this construction.

First off, my point is a more elementary one: you're presenting your own inference - that Libby was asking about the NIE - as a fact, when in fact Libby did not specifically ask about the NIE.

Second, it's unclear to me why it's a slippery slope. Addington said it was after July 6, Libby said it was around his July 8 conversation with Miller. But even if it was a little later, why would that slope be so slippery for me, as opposed to just a little less problematic for Libby?

Also, I'm unimpressed by your tendency to shift back and forth between reasonble doubt standard and just trying to figure out what actually happened.

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Wilson/Plame